On Nazis

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Never had a problem with nudity in videogames, never felt the need to have it tho. As long as the game is going to be 18+ anyway, why the heck not?

Nazis... How tired am I of Nazis:p. I read up on everything I could find about them back in the day, before I discovered WW2 games. Now I'm sick and tired of the era and am not likely to ever play a WW2 game again unless it's insanely good... If only game makers could do their badies a little bit better...

Big question for anyone still obsessed over world war two, why do you care anymore? it happened over 60 years ago, every aspect of it has been analyized to death and its tuime too let it all go away. In short, it happened, let it go and learn about it in school.
Off topic: Isn't making world war 2 games war profiteering?
P.S. why doesn't anyone make a game where you play as the nazi's?

Best Extra ever.

Considering how much resources and time graphics take from the making of a game, that explanation about why nazis are the perfect video game baddies was spot on..

Rainboq:
Big question for anyone still obsessed over world war two, why do you care anymore? it happened over 60 years ago, every aspect of it has been analyized to death and its tuime too let it all go away. In short, it happened, let it go and learn about it in school.
Off topic: Isn't making world war 2 games war profiteering?
P.S. why doesn't anyone make a game where you play as the nazi's?

60 years is not THAT long, you know?

Because it would cause too much of a negative uproar. You and I might not care, but the millions of Jews certainly would. Hell, only one game I know of would dare to show the holocaust..

I love the "Free DLC opt-in" idea. Bring it on.

At first, I was a little distracted by the humor of this article before my brain really started to kick in to gear on this topic. Let me lay a concept on the masses here...
I will grant you that nearly every culture in today's society will overwhelming agree that Nazis = evil. No question, hands down... aside from the small population of Neo-Nazis still running through high schools and killing kids on Hitler's birthday (tasteless observation, but true). But the thing is, who else can developers cast as the token "bad guy" anymore? Middle Eastern people? Irish people? Religious zealots? Here is where the problem lies... it seems as though every other group other than Nazis has a support group that will sue game developers for insinuating they are ALL possible for being bad, even in a fictional setting. Take for example the movie "District 9" and the firestorm that created in Africans because of how they were portrayed in a fictional movie loosely based in their country. They were fine with housing non-hostile aliens, but to portray them as hording guns and prostituting female aliens seems to be too offensive... wtf? Movies don't stray too far away from video games in the genre of fantasy, and you can't even use a broad stereotype in either without possible stepping on someone's culture unless you do it in a way that is such a broad stereotype that you make them out to be a parody of them.
There aren't a lot of support groups for Nazis these days, regardless that history is written by the winners. I'm certainly not going to defend the Nazis (current or historical), but it is too easy to pin anything bad in a video game on them. They have an established backstory that developers don't need to develop, their obvious evil needs no definition or explanation, and they always seem to be working on some master plan to take over the world. No one ever questions whether or not to kill Nazis, they are pretty much like modern history's version of a whipping boy that takes all the abuse and no one has to feel bad about using them over and over again instead of developing something new. That's where modern society has failed us frankly... we don't have the freedom to pick on anyone, even in a fictional manner. You rarely ever see the United States cast as a villian (regardless of how the world at large views that country from time to time), or really the Chinese (outside of a World War 2 context).
Take Halo for example. Popular title that became the trademark of Microsoft... no Nazis. We had to travel to the future in a fictional set of events to create an enemy that no one could be offended by. These dumbass protesting hippie freaks that get pissed about every little damn thing in the world have made it so that you can't enjoy shooting anyone other than a Nazi, a zombie, Nazi zombies, or some weird-colored alien politically correct. So why in the hell aren't we shooting these picketing douche-muffin hippies instead of Nazis? Oh right... stupid pacifists. Even still, unless the violence takes place on a distant planet in the future or in some weird-ass time travel experiment (looking at you, Assassin's Creed!), you're going to piss off some special interest group and get a media backlash that will somehow affect the bottom line of making a profit without negative publicity. The answer? Throw in some Nazis, bad scripting (both in story and AI), slap some uniforms on everyone and call it a World War 2 shooter... works for Call of Duty.
I completely agree though that Nazis should be left out of future games. I'd really like to say that 2009 was the last time we saw any Nazis in video games, regardless of their role in the game. It is time we came together and decided what the new hate group was going to be for the next 60 years, but frankly, who else has the track record of bad deeds than the Nazis? Come on vigilante groups and religious weirdos, start pulling your weight so I have a different face and set of uniforms to aim at in FPS games!

A lot of people tend to lump the German people and it's army in with the Nazis because Hitler was elected to power. But the thing of it is that people make mistakes... granted more people tried to correct that mistake than others...

Yahtzee is completely right when he says that making Nazis the enemy is poor writing. It is. A good portion of the world see the Nazis as the ultimate evil (although we Americans are now being led to believe terrorists are) so you don't even have to question what a soldier was doing when he was standing around and you sniped him. He had a red armband with a swastika on it, so he must have deserved it.

I think it would be interesting of a game of any genre were made where you played as a German soldier during WW2 that ends up switching sides about halfway through. I'm sure a lot of people think that, though. Personally, if they don't do something like this I'd rather not see another WW2 game. I'm tired of killing Nazis... and lately, I've gotten tired of killing Russians.

Mr.Wiggles:

LimaBravo:
I do find it interesting that the Nazis are always singled out (They should be if elected dictator of the world for life I shall instate a White Power/BNP/Other Morons shooting gallery. If they take more than a minute to die you win ducky) but they seem to forget about the horrors of the East and the Japanese.

Stalin wasn't a sparkling example either.

AssButt:
Most German soldiers weren't members of the Nazi Party. Even then, the Japanese committed similar atrocities (read up on Unit 731) and Stalin killed much more people than Hitler did.

Most WW2 vets don't hold a grudge against the Germans, a lot of them do against the Japanese.

Only 200 000 deaths have ever been recorded that could be blamed on Stalin any other figure is an approximation as no other evidence survives to this day (or so we are told)

OT: People always seem to just use Nazis as an excuse for lots of things like Yahtzee says people often just stick a man in a grey uniform with no prior explanation in fact throughout various games you are expected to assume that they are bastards!

Lets face it if the airport scene had men wearing grey uniforms at any point or perhaps a german or austrian tourist people would not have cared!

It depends on how you measure it, some figures range as high as 60 million, which is likely a gross exaggeration, other figures give around 20 million which is much more likely.

I agree that the use of the Nazi as a villain is rather lazy. It lets a designer avoid giving details as to the enemy. They use a paint brush of evil and call it a day. Look to the game Freedom Fighters and Turning Point: Fall of Liberty. Now game play aside- in which Freedom Fighters wins hands down- the handling of an invasion of America by two large "evil" Empires is handled very differently. In Turning Point the Nazis just invade, and throughout the game no effort is made to show them as more then thugs with guns. You throw on some steel helmets, an airship, and the swastika then that's it instant villain. Freedom Fighters had the "evil" Soviets invading but it took the time to show them acting evil. It did not just put the hammer and sickle on the enemy and let you have at them. You got to see the Soviets arresting people, murdering, and things that in the context of the story made them the bad guys.

Of course one has to give the Saboteur a little credit for going a little beyond simply throwing the Nazi's on a map and saying "kill them." The game tried in some way to give a reason for the player to fight. Although in the story I wonder if anything would have occurred if that Irishman never saw his friend die. That would be a fun message, "Hey unless the Nazi's kill someone you love, just lay low and drink a lot." Makes me wonder how much effort would be needed to make a game not using stock characters like the Nazi's. If the Purple Alien Empire took over Paris how much back story would we need to know they are bad?

Even if Hitler had not had that tash I do not think that it would have been popular now. I have to agree though I think that their are to many games that have Nazis in.

I swear the Nazi's are pure laziness. Not only are they immediately recognizable as "evil" (as Yahtzee said), but when a game designer says, "What's something 'evil' that we can use for the antagonist?" Nazi's spring to mind first. It might be harder to think up a scenario such as a megacorporation selling toy cars with lead-based paint to unsuspecting American kids to make them stupid, and perhaps even harder to use that as justification for mass murder.

The sad thing about the Nazis is that not all Nazis were evil. In fact, many of the people, especially those who fought in the war, were forced into it for fear of being killed for not being a Nazi. You have to remember, even breathing word of not supporting the Nazis would be a suicide note in Nazi Germany. Also, Hitler didn't get his start by being a Jew-hater -- his fascist government actually did wonderful things for the economy -- it was only once he had a strong grip over the country that he started killing everybody who didn't agree with him and invading neighboring countries. Absolute power and all, I suppose.

Overall, I'm sick and tired of Nazis, and especially of WWII. Especially since nobody seems to remember the significant role Canadians played in winning the war (Vimy Ridge? Yeah, that was our baby. That's why they call us Crazy Canucks.) Instead, it seems the US, Britain, and France were the only ones on the Allies' side. (Oh yeah, and the US initially refused to be part of the war; they only joined after one of their ships was supposedly bombed by the Nazis. Turns out, the Nazis weren't responsible.)

Let's stop killing Nazis, zombies, orcs, aliens, and all other automatically-bad characters. Let's start writing real narratives using real-life bad guys: gangsters, drug cartels, terrorists, and megacorporations. We should be able to come up with new, interesting plots, rather than repeatedly replaying WWII.

The most recent Bard's Tale took typical fantasy elements and made fun of them. Every few seconds you ran into the "chosen one," and smashing barrels got you yelled at. What if they made a game in which the instant you shot a zombie the entire town decided to hate you for killing the poor thing?

SextusMaximus:
Star Wars' Storm Troopers themselves were based off of Nazis, the Taliban are the modern day version

Hold on.

Wait. Just one second.

Can you say that again?

Galad:
Considering how much resources and time graphics take from the making of a game, that explanation about why nazis are the perfect video game baddies was spot on..

Rainboq:
Big question for anyone still obsessed over world war two, why do you care anymore? it happened over 60 years ago, every aspect of it has been analyized to death and its tuime too let it all go away. In short, it happened, let it go and learn about it in school.
Off topic: Isn't making world war 2 games war profiteering?
P.S. why doesn't anyone make a game where you play as the nazi's?

60 years is not THAT long, you know?
My late grandmother could protest that.

Because it would cause too much of a negative uproar. You and I might not care, but the millions of Jews certainly would. Hell, only one game I know of would dare to show the holocaust..
and that is?

I don't get all the hubbub around the Holocaust, yes millions got slaughter, yes it was unjust, yes it was a tragedy but why prohibit people from showing all the sides, if one was too make a game based on the nazi's they could show that the majority of the Nazi's didn't like what they were doing an most of them tried to opt out of it or show sympathy towards the prisoners but if they did they would be killed. It would also help to dispel the idea that ALL Nazi's were bad/evil, a wound that runs deep in Germany, actually it is illegal to show anything related to World War 2 there.

Rainboq:
actually it is illegal to show anything related to World War 2 there.

False.

Booze Zombie:
Well, to quote Will Smith "I doubt Hitler woke up every morning and said to himself 'I'm going to do something evil'"

Of course he wouldn't - historical records indicate he was infact a very lazy man who would often sleep until the afternoon...

Rainboq:

Galad:
Considering how much resources and time graphics take from the making of a game, that explanation about why nazis are the perfect video game baddies was spot on..

Rainboq:
Big question for anyone still obsessed over world war two, why do you care anymore? it happened over 60 years ago, every aspect of it has been analyized to death and its tuime too let it all go away. In short, it happened, let it go and learn about it in school.
Off topic: Isn't making world war 2 games war profiteering?
P.S. why doesn't anyone make a game where you play as the nazi's?

60 years is not THAT long, you know?
My late grandmother could protest that.

Because it would cause too much of a negative uproar. You and I might not care, but the millions of Jews certainly would. Hell, only one game I know of would dare to show the holocaust..
and that is?

I don't get all the hubbub around the Holocaust, yes millions got slaughter, yes it was unjust, yes it was a tragedy but why prohibit people from showing all the sides, if one was too make a game based on the nazi's they could show that the majority of the Nazi's didn't like what they were doing an most of them tried to opt out of it or show sympathy towards the prisoners but if they did they would be killed. It would also help to dispel the idea that ALL Nazi's were bad/evil, a wound that runs deep in Germany, actually it is illegal to show anything related to World War 2 there.

I should've pointed out that I was talking of a historical memory's point of view, in that case 60 years is not long enough, even more so since there are still WW2 veterans alive out there. But, to make it relevant to the topic, let me add that WW2 makes for easy game scenario writing..

As for which game showed the Holocaust, I think it's Velvet assassin.

Actually, there is a game about how awful Mcdonalds is. It's a flash game, but it does exist.

I liked the Zombie-Nazis in Modern Warfare. They were scary cuase they they didn't want Jew brains, so this was one time that they got away without the punishment they deserve...
On a nother note, maybe a WW2 game would benifit if the FPS-ing part was done through the eyes of a band of rebel jews who are sick of being oppresed and living in constant fear.

Wow, that last bit is a really good idea.

I actually really like the idea of being allowed to choose whether you want a game 18+ or lower, and still have the same (kinda) game. My little brother always comes asking if i got a game he can play, but all the games I have are bloody, and I dont think it is fit for a 9 year old to play Bioshock.

Metal Brother:
I love the "Free DLC opt-in" idea. Bring it on.

I agree. It's an absolutely BRILLIANT idea!!

As much as I agree Nazis are overused, and that the Edgar-Allan-Poe-Stash was ruined.
I disagree with a lot of comments saying "oh, they were just following orders, most of them weren't bad." Lots of recent evidence shows how many people did in fact turn over their friends as being traitors only to tell reporters "oh, I don't know how my signature got on there."

I think that if we pump out another "Nazis are bad" game every year, it will be okay.

The problem isn't the Nazis, it's the fact people want to make their games for the point of making games, not to tell a unique story. If a guy yells out "hey, I really think that the fact Britain ended up making a fake army of inflatable tanks was cool... let's make a game where your a spy and you hunt down and kill people who are leaking information to Nazi Germany so that Allied plans are not discovered and stuff like that" let him, sure the game would probably suck, but it's better then "guys, we need another game... you have any spare Nazi sprites?"

There's probably another reason Nazis are used so frequently: There is literally no one (outside of a handful of extremist groups) who will get angry at you for making a game killing Nazis. They may get angry at the violence in the game, but you won't have another Capcom/RE5-type fiasco on your hands.

SextusMaximus:
the Taliban are the modern day version (and yes I know they're not fictional.

I'm pretty sure this man just compared the Taliban to Nazi Germany. I shall now attempt to resist jumping on the opportunity to call him an ignorant, short sighted American that couldn't tell the difference between the holocaust and a newscast.

Yeah I failed.

sueyed:

SextusMaximus:
the Taliban are the modern day version (and yes I know they're not fictional.

I'm pretty sure this man just compared the Taliban to Nazi Germany. I shall now attempt to resist jumping on the opportunity to call him an ignorant, short sighted American that couldn't tell the difference between the holocaust and a newscast.

Yeah I failed.

I'm British I'll have you know, and I know nothing about The Taliban, I thought I'd throw it in there and hope I was right, clearly I wasn't.

I'll now go cry in shame...

In fact, it's probably best if I stop posting in threads with even a hint of Historical background.

WEll, The SAboteur can get away with using Nazis, the game is set at the invasion of Paris, and then the overthrow. So it's not like they could have replaced the baddies with another to make up for it. As fa as I know it was Nazis, not Russian mercenaries who invaded Paris in 1940.

Censors are just being silly, buying the game to begin with is a choice by the dude/dudette

Nazis are indeed an overused sort of bad guys. Helghast are cool though. I haven't played any of the Killzone games, but to me, they come across as soldiers that fight for the cause they see is right, even noble in their own rotting-zombie-like way. This theme of theirs might be a large impact, of course. Ruthless to their enemies, fighting for a cause they see is right (as far as I understand, they were somewhat forced to live on their extremely hostile homeworld, being exiled there by the ISA oppressions, the role of which you assume in the games, so their hatred is more than justified) - eliminating the traitor human race. Hell, drop the space-nazi entourage, switch their flags to red, blue and white, and there, now they are the ultimate good guys that were wronged and crippled by their oppressors in the eyes of the media. That's how easy it really is to demonize your enemy - throw nazi entourage on them. That's how deep this whole thing has sat in.

Maybe Killzone has taken the right approach in this, where both conflicting sides can be related to. On the battlefield, the enemy is always evil. But when looking from afar, the two armies clashed into a conflict are often enough exactly the same. But that is thought provoking and difficult to understand, therefore it has no place in the mass media. Nazi Germany should be held as a good example of what happens, when the victors of war go too far in their self-righteous thirst for loot, not the symbol of great evil.

Sylias:
Ever played any first person shooter that had Nazis in it and thought to yourself : "I wonder if this guy has a family. Maybe he's doing this to feed his kids. Maybe it's his last day because tomorrow he'll have enough of this mindless fighting and BOOOOM there goes his head..."

Do people really wonder this sort of thing in an action game? I don't even wonder this about the 80 year old lady whose oxygen tank I snipe in Saints Row 2, and she's not a Nazi or even a bad guy. It's not because I'm a sociopath or a coward; I just know they're not real. I rarely concern myself with their lives, their race, religion, belief system, or whether or not they brush their teeth. I don't think this is a bad thing, either.

Regarding Nazis: I wouldn't be bothered if they weren't so overdone. Nazis in video games are even more evil in most respects than their real world counterparts. They're only rivaled by the fact that no fictional holocaust can trump the real one, even if you remove all humanity from the characters. If one is really worried, perhaps one should focus a touch more on worrying that we end up trivialising one of the most monstrous acts in modern history.

Regarding T, A, and Cooking Mama: This will replace Cthulhu in my nightmares. Cooking Mama aside, I'm not particularly a fan of the opt-in, but I have to wonder if this is the best sort of solution to placate the whiny people who want to make our world PG. At least the parts without Nazis, terrorists, wars, gang violence, AIDS, cancer, and the depletion of vital resources. You know, because living in a good world isn't as important as pretending we live in a good world.

I don't really "get" the deal with T&A. Both the people who seem to need it in video games and those who think it's so horrible. I tend to err to the side of opposing censorship, though, especially with how unhealthy our cultural views of sex and our bodies are. If you're actually disturbed by body parts roughly half of us have, don't pretend I'm the sick one because I'm not.

I agree with your point on Nazis, but for that matter, popular culture is plagued with a problem of having new ideas. So why insist on that one?

- The Pirates Vs. Ninja fixation is getting old, but there are still people who find that funny.
- People are putting zombies everywhere nowadays and the latest occurrences is always as welcomed as the first.

The Nazis are to shooters what the medieval era is to RPGs. What can we do about it?

Irridium:
If the Australian government and the world didn't have their heads stuck up their asses about censorship we wouldn't have the problem of people crying foul over games showing tits and blood.

When will parents and adults learn that all kids lose innocence when they go to public school.

I went to a catholic school after buying Grand Theft Auto and taught all the kids to swear properly... By properly, I mean gratuitously.

BusDriverMan:

Rainboq:
actually it is illegal to show anything related to World War 2 there.

False.

whoops I meant Nazi related

You know what? Scary as it sounds, even if Yahtzee was actually joking, I find myself liking the idea of adding "adult" material - gore, nude bits, sex, what have you - to a game via DLC. I think it would be a good idea.

Nazis are popular bad guys because of the lack of hesitation on killing them in the player's side. So evil, killing one is always good, even in an accident. Even in a horrible, torturing way, like in Inglorious Basterds.

Strangely enough, the same applies to zombies, not for beeing evil, but for beeing irational. And dead, already. like Nazis.

EDIT: oh, and DLC-porn is always a good idea. People have the right!! To choose to see other persons naked!

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