Interactivity

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT
 

"Game Game Game: The Game" sounds... GRRREAT!

I am more excited to see what comes out of this, then I could give any shits [not even a one] about bioshock one or [poo] two.

I can honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that beowulf the game was easily the worst game ever to squeeze itself out onto our shelves.

Also, the best game ever seems to be FSG:TG (Y)

You know, thinking about Mass Effect 2 and the subject of interactivity in games: I don't think the intro of ME2 was a particularly good example of the idea. They did give you enough to do that it wasn't just watching a movie, and I think part of the point of the places you didn't have control was that Commander Shepard didn't have much control either, but my the point I'm trying to get to is that the ending added a whole new layer of interactivity. Too often in games there's no consequence for failure except starting over from the last checkpoint. ME2's ending did a great job when it made it so that you could defeat the final boss and save the galaxy and still... well, have really bad things happen. It didn't feel safe like most video games do. And you were still in control of it.

I just thought that was a really fascinating thing they did, that doesn't seem to get enough credit.

OK, y'all are going to have to forgive me: I'm much too tired to sort through one-hundred-some-odd comments to find out if anyone else has already brought up this elephant in the room before me (so if they have, simply disregard this post):

Yahtzee-- you're bitching that the intro to Bioshock 2 wasn't as cool as the intro to Bioshock, but at the same time, if they had mirrored the mechanics of the Bioshock intro, wouldn't you pan it for 'recycling the same ideas'???

Moral of the story: instead of moaning about the schema of the intro, recognize that change must occur (particularly if Irrational didn't want the game to immediately be labled as 'just more of the same' from the very outset), and focus on whether or not quality was delivered in that context.... and I dare say, your opinion is that it was.

Now, I'm off to bed to dream up a plot for the nefarious game Yahtzee is making...

I think interactivity is overrated.
I see too many posts on /v/ or whatever about how WRPGs are superior to JRPGs because [among others] they have "interactive" cutscenes or whatever where you select among dialogue options.

Personally I don't see what's so wrong with a good ol' cutscene. I think that how the game stops and waits for you to deliver a line, and not voiced in some cases [KOTOR] just breaks the fluidity of it and really doesn't make for a memorable moment.

On the other hand, I can name a bunch of incredibly memorable/iconic cutscenes in JRPGs, which I can't really remember one from the last WRPG I played, KOTOR.

HG131:

ldwater:
Similar to Half Life 1 where even though the whole track thing was a little too much is still felt cool to be just 'average joe Freeman' heading into work, looking around and being bored - before you bring forth the end of the world!! Muhahahahahaha!!!!

Ahhh, but he wasn't average, unless being a Theoretical Physicist with a Ph.D. working on teleportation is a average.

Yes but the first time playing it you don't know that he is Mr PHD guy in alien ass kicking until later. Besides its not like hes riding on a golden, jewel encrusted monorail system that makes you feel like your more important or anything (besides gliding past alot of really cool / freaky looking hardware :P)

Roterians: In SPACE!

Newgrounds has become way too mainstream for its own good, kinda like 4chan. Too many average internet users way too easily impressed.

Personally I rate short videos and flash games from the internet differently than novels, movies, and games on a star scale. If a random Youtube video or Newgrounds game just manages to entertain and impress me I give it five stars. On the other hand when it comes to books, movies, and games I give it four stars upon initial release and once time has passed I may upgrade it to a five star status if the production has become something that has influenced the entire medium or something that hasn't been again been replicated successfully -in other words become a classic.

DMal88:
The scenario you've described in FSG:TG sounds a lot like the second scene in Firefly's pilot episode. At least, in terms of the setting (Big hostile ship 1 finds independent scavenger ship picking off scraps from downed hostile ship 2).

Yeah I immediately went to the Firefly place :)

cant wait to play fun space game :D

I still really enjoyed Bioshock 2. I was okay with it not being as good as the first. Yanno.

Damn, just imagining the intro Yahtzee described makes the actual intro feel so lame....
But regardless, did you ever expect Bioshock 2 to be better then Bioshock 1? In the story/characters departament, that is? Bioshock had (and still has) one of the best stories in video games, probably the greatest setting and, hands down, the single best supporting character in the history of forever ("I want to take the ears off"..). Could you really expect Bioshock 2 to top that?

No. Just like there are never any good sequels to great movies (or games that put emphasis on the storytelling first, action second), Bioshock 2 couldn't possibly top the first game's storytelling. And if you expected it to, you were most definetly disappointed.

But, where movies don't have anything else to offer other then the story, games have gameplay (duh). And that's where Bioshock 2 shines. It is better then the first game in every single aspect (of the gamplay, mind you). Plus, multiplayer never hurts. Combine that with a pretty good plot of it's own, and you get a game, that might not stack up to it's predecessor on the "greatness" scale, but a great game non-the-less.

Sentient6:

But regardless, did you ever expect Bioshock 2 to be better then Bioshock 1? In the story/characters departament, that is? Bioshock had (and still has) one of the best stories in video games, probably the greatest setting and, hands down, the single best supporting character in the history of forever ("I want to take the ears off"..). Could you really expect Bioshock 2 to top that?

I always felt Bioshock 1 got really dumb two-thirds in once we learn who Jack really is....=/

Crates? It's not a modern game without crate smashing! I hope there is pudding inside the crates.

Great concept and very fun to read it come together. It seems like the finished product will be good. Anyway maybe it was the opening or the story but something Bioshock had was the ability to make me not want to put down the controller. Bioshock 2 however failed to do anything to the point where I played it for less than an hour before I wanted to stop.

girl_in_background:
I get what he's saying, the Bioshock intro was very immersive and entertaining and cool. It would have been nice if they had done that in the second game as well, but I don't think it would have had that sense of urgency if the player just kind of ambled along when Eleanor screamed, while in the scene your character sprinted to her rescue.

They could have had the player lose control and have to run to Eleanor when she screams, to emphasise the power of the pairbond, then returning control to the player for the combat.

Oyster^^:
Can't complain about the Bioshock opening either, other than what Yahtzee already pointed out: That totally out of place opening monologue from Jack... doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why intro a character that you keep completely mute for the rest of the game? I guess it could be interpreted as a cheap trick to throw you off the TOTALLY AWESOME twist late in the game, but still. And how much did the pay that voice actor. "Hey, you'll be voicing the playable character in Bioshock. You'll get paid up front. Got change for a twenty?"

Yeah, the monologue just smacks of some blithering executive coming along at the last minute saying "What? No dialogue in the intro? That's so boring! You have to have some bad-ass sounding guy giving a narration or something, I mean this is supposed to be an awesome FPS, come on people!"

LTK_70:

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Maybe it could have brought up a tutorial box saying PRESS RIGHT TRIGGER TO SHOOT, and the game couldn't continue until you'd done it.

See, now, that would have brought the intro up to par with the one in Bio 1. Don't even give the player a tutorial, hold the gun up to his head and wait for the player to push a button, any button. This puts you in direct control of your character's life, and even while hypnotized, still keeps up the appearance of a sliver of free will remaining in you. Will you pull the trigger and kill yourself, just for the sake of being able to play the game? This question rubs Andrew Ryan's motto right in your face. "A man chooses, a slave obeys." And everyone will pull the trigger. Every player obeys the game. Every player is a slave to the tutorial box.

Man, why do you have to ruin every game for us just by thinking of ways in which it could have been so much better?

I like the idea of giving the player a tiny sliver of choice: which button you use to kill yourself, although having "PRESS RIGHT TRIGGER TO SHOOT" makes it a bit more of a direct subversion of regular tutorials, and that little bit more hard-hitting IMO.

Kelbear:

I will say that the audiologs are still terrific, and are really the only things that give me any impression of there having been a society in Rapture at all. Also, I didn't have this same apprehension with Systemshock's setting. Again, perhaps it's because I've just been spoiled by modern gaming budgets.

I think it's because System Shock 2 was set in a spaceship instead of a city, by necessity spaceships tend to be very compact with a small population.

BioShock 2 was disappointing due to the fact that it was unnecessary. The first game should have been a standalone piece, not part of a series.
BioShock does have one of the best intros ever, but I still love the Mass Effect 2 intro. Could you count Cliffhanger in MW2 as an intro for Roach and McTavish? If so then that was epic.

blackshark121:
Here's your plot for "Fun Space Game: The Game": Aliens attack, humans retaliate, aliens are actually humans from the future, now-humans turn to be evil, later-humans are good. I get a 7.6% cut on everything "Fun Space Game: The Game" earns.

Isn't that Doctor Who

OT:Although Ive never played bioshock, I can see what you mean, and It sounds like fun space game: the game Is coming along nicely

/still likes Bioshock2

I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying Bioshock2 as a game. I found Bioshock2 to be much more challenging that Bioshock1 and I felt a more honest connection with the Little Sisters.
In Bioshock1, the little sisters were just creepy things that you either saved or harvested, but honestly, Jack's mission in the beginning was to escape and kill Andrew Ryan (of course that mission later changes to where you need to kill someone else, but no spoilers ;] ).
Bioshock2 gave the person a feeling of attachment to the little sisters. (At least, I felt a connection).

I'm not saying Bioshock2 is better than one, but I feel like Bioshock2's been getting too much crap. It doesn't have a massive plot twist, but it's a beautiful game.
*shrug*

BTW, I loved Bioshock1, it has a great into, an awesome plot twist and an interesting general game concept.

ProfessorLayton:

Ninjamedic:
Well, Bioshock was one of a kind anyway, like modern warfare.

What? Modern Warfare is one of a kind? I hope I'm missing something here...

I agree that the opening cinematic was much worse, but it was still pretty good. In fact, BioShock was a better game all around than BioShock 2. It's just a matter of seeing the game before. If I hadn't have had the first game's incredible opening cinematic, would I have thought more of the second games? Grabbing the shotgun did the same exact thing in BioShock 1 and 2, and obviously it was less surprising in the second game. Honestly, if BioShock 1 never existed, I think BioShock 2 would have been much better than it seemed. I think that the should learn from this and try to change things up for BioShock 3.

I meant in the way that infinity ward failed to recreate the same atmosphere. As he said before.

Kollega:
In definition, the wheel is less like very first machine and more like very first technology, but whatever, i'm not a linguist.

I'm not a linguist either, but the wheel, the wedge and the screw were described as "simple machines" in my highschool tech class. Then they made us work out the equations for how they work. I even had to write a short paper on the principles of the screw.

But I think wedge was invented before the wheel. It's simpler.

I usually don't agree with Yahtzee's suggestions for improvement, jokes or not, but I think that "Press Right Trigger to shoot" idea was pretty damn good.

AnnaIME:
I'm not a linguist either, but the wheel, the wedge and the screw were described as "simple machines" in my highschool tech class. Then they made us work out the equations for how they work. I even had to write a short paper on the principles of the screw.

But I think wedge was invented before the wheel. It's simpler.

Oh, now i get it. You understand, when i hear "machine" i think "mechanism". That's my definition. So yeah.

The sad part of Bioshock 2 was not so much that it was a bad game but that the team behind it could've been working on a NEW IP, one dripping with potential to inspire awe in the same way Bioshock 1 did.

I can't comment on the opening to Bioshock 2 so I'll focus on FSG:TG.

The main character needs a good name. Something tough. Something resilient. Like... Geoff.

I really like your approach to designing a video game. Have you ever read anything by Raph Koster? This is similar to what he would suggest: build a good game, then lay a good theme on top of it.

At its heart, a game is a set of mechanics. You have some controls, they twiddle something you can't directly see, you get feedback through some manner, and you have to use that to figure out the thing you don't see. For a space sim, this largely means taking a ship whose flight is determined by multiple controls and figuring out how to make it fly the way you want. Add in some "enemies" and now you also have to figure out how to predict their strategies and counter them. To add a challenge, you can make things move faster and throw in some obstacles, like in your "Skywalker in the vent" scenario. All of this is pure mechanics and is fun in its own right as a game.

But then you lay a theme on it. Setup a narrative with protagonists and antagonists. Layer it with some mystery, foreshadowing, a cast of characters, and create a literary work on top of it. So long as the mechanics are an integral part of exploring that narrative, you have something that works on many levels.

Modern games mostly fall down by half-assing both parts. They use a tried-and-true mechanic, like a FPS, with the same set of weapons, armor, and everything else you've used before. Mastering this doesn't take much, because it's the same game system you've mastered before. Then they make matters worse by reusing the same stories and the same themes. You're an American soldier fighting Nazis. Geez, I wonder how this story goes. Do I really care to see the end of it? No depth to the characters, no intriguing mystery, no climax, and no overall theme for the story -- just an excuse to shoot things, thinly-veiled as a "story". They would have been better to make it an abstract game so that we didn't question why the red thing was attacking the blue thing.

As an example of how this can be done well, look at Portal. As a mechanic, it was something completely new: a gun that doesn't shoot things, but makes portals. The game system becomes a matter of figuring out where to place portals and at what time to accomplish certain tasks, like getting across distant platforms or getting past impassable barricades. It's a mechanic that, even without the theme, leads to a lot of fun challenges and new experiences.

But then they layer a story on top of it. The gun is an experimental device and you are a test subject in a facility, which is why you have to go through all these challenges. And you're being watched by a computer, who is trying to convince you to do these otherwise seemingly-meaningless challenges, promising you great rewards. And then there is the whole thing with the cake being a lie and the story really gets going, just when you were getting tired of pointless physics puzzles. It's a story you've certainly never seen before (even if it does seem similar to HAL 9000 or Xerxes). They setup some great characters and an interesting narrative, giving you a reason to see the story through.

It looks like this is where you are going with your game. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

ThrobbingEgo:
Congratulations, Yahtzee, you've invented Halo.

Congratulations you, you've made no sense.

Where's the bit in Halo where you fly a spaceship and scavenge a wreck for parts? Where's the space mega-corporations and independent Han Solo-alikes? And in FSG:TG? I must have missed the bit in the article where Yahtzee spoke at length about his FPS mechanics and power-armored space marines. Not to mention a religious order who want to kill the galaxy's life forms to follow an ancient race.

Kinda surprised but I didn't see anyone mention the great intro to Prey. You start in a bar, get in a fight, listen to some music, play some poker and/or video games in the arcade and then, bam, aliens attack and the whole building is beamed piece by piece up into a giant light. How can that not be one of the best intros to a game?

I kno it's probably impossible to do in your game and you may never read this, but have a section where your ship is destroyed and you float aimlessly in space for a few seocnds. The like in The HitchHikers guide to the Galaxy get picked up by another ship by sheer chance. A plot device to get a newer, better ship under your command.

That'd be fun/

AncientYoungSon:
The sad part of Bioshock 2 was not so much that it was a bad game but that the team behind it could've been working on a NEW IP, one dripping with potential to inspire awe in the same way Bioshock 1 did.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that IS what happened. 2K marin, who developed bioshock 2, only had like 5 people from Irrational Games. The rest of that team went on to do something else I believe. Don't think there's been any announcement on what it is though..
Yeah but anyways the publisher just wanted to push another Bioshock out while it was still popular so they assembled a new development team. The bastards...

killer-corkonian:
Congratulations you, you've made no sense.

Where's the bit in Halo where you fly a spaceship and scavenge a wreck for parts? Where's the space mega-corporations and independent Han Solo-alikes? And in FSG:TG? I must have missed the bit in the article where Yahtzee spoke at length about his FPS mechanics and power-armored space marines. Not to mention a religious order who want to kill the galaxy's life forms to follow an ancient race.

I think he may be talking about the wheel structure thingy Yahtzee mentioned designing... although that still doesn't make a lot of sense. The halo is just a ring; no exciting tunnels to be flying through.

The idea of making the opening interactive was sexy. Really was a missed opportunity, though I thought it was awesome nonetheless.

Well I absolutely REQUIRE diversity in games, but seriously, I don't understand all this obsession about Bioshock 1. I didn't like that game much, but I went on playing just to see that HUGE MEGA STORY TURN that was supposed to make the game suddenly great. Well, I didn't make it. I just stopped playing at one point and went to look for the spoilers. And then... Huh, that's supposed to be it? That's why my plane crashed right there, that's why I had no choice but to use that first the plasmid et cetera? Well, okay if you are into that kind of thing. Innovative too I guess.

But, have you noticed how most game reviews used to start with "You are a marine/scientist/alien/pilot and are on a mission/journey to rescue/annihilate/conquer/trade extraterestrials/a new world/your loved one/demons"? Well, that's why I play games, especially the FP kind. To be someone specific with some specific goal (which may of course screw up later). Not some nameless dude who has no control over himself. Yeah, I respect the idea, but I don't get how is that supposed to basically MAKE A GAME.

That goes for the intro as well. At the beginning of the game I was always WTF? What am I doing here? Couldn't this just be made more fun or interesting somehow? The mystery main character at the beginning works in books or movies, not in games. And even in books and movies the author needs to take good care not to screw it up right at the beginning.

If I'm to list games with great intros, then of the top of my head I think of:

Half-Life
Max Payne
Crysis

Never Bioshock.

BTW as for the simple space game: Is really everyone forgetting DarkStar One? I've got this from Steam some time ago and it remains the only game I've actually finished since then. Also check Babylon 5: I've Found Her.

After reading this, I have to say, I would pay full price (Waving my employee discount) if Bioshock 2's intro was like you described. I, personally, love the interactive cutscene mechanic. Even if I have to sacrifice realistic 'Wow' quality graphics, I want to move my arms, legs, head, eyes, and hell, give me a button that lets me fart at the most inappropriate times -- and make sure the people in room are aware of my gas attack. Taking this launch, I'll proceed to share my thoughts on immersion.

Take a page from acting: what makes a good actor good? In a film, as well as on stage, when something happens, they react to it. EXAMPLE:

"Hi Bob, long day at the steel mill, huh?" says Jack, handing him a mug full of beer.

"Hell. Yeah. That jackass of a boss made me stay an extra-" Beer mug bumps into the cigarette lighter and tips over, spilling onto the bar, which is completely not in the script, "-ah shit, Jack. I'll get it." says Bob, taking napkins from a luckily placed prop.
"I'm all thumbs," says Jack, passing him more napkins and shaking his head in silent shame.
"Anyway, that jackass had me stay an extra hour. I'm not even getting..." etc.

A good director will keep scenes like that, whenever possible, because they slowly bring about that illusion that you're becoming apart of some period of these people's lives.

Games need to do this more and more. Have the other characters have little secret meters built into their code that fill and empty based on my actions. Pretty simple, right? I fart, guy likes me more slightly, women likes me less. Other women likes me a lot more (scary), only I have no idea. Eventually, these meters can color the responses I get and even create new ones. I continuously fart, the guy may break out into laughter and tears, while the first woman may openly scold me and insult my hygiene. The third woman may propose coitus. Now, throw this handy game mechanic into an interactive sub-cut-scene, where I have full control (or new controls) while replacing a boring CGI story moving cut-scenes where I get to see bad cgi acting, worse voice acting, and we've got ourselves a great story-telling medium which inspires that age old 'fun' emotion.

PS, I know game developers use Metacritic as a measuring stick for their progress, reading reviews to find out how they failed. Why isn't Yahtzee ever listed in a Metacritic report? Some of the other sources are just laughable, and they aren't trying to be funny. They should contact you once in a while. Or me. Contact me instead.

Hmmm, interesting read.

However I would say that I didn't think the opening of Bioshock 1 was what I'd call really interactive. It struck me as more or less being the equivilent of "Push button to continue". It was pretty cool, but I don't think it was any more compelling overall than the second game... which was pretty freaky if you think about it.

To each their own however. I guess it comes down to opinion. I consider them both more or less equal. I also think that Bioshock 2 will not ever be as popular as Bioshock 1 due to the fact that I feel the first game succeeded largely by being what a lot of gamers saw as a political rant they could agree with. The turnabout in Bioshock 2 picking on the idealogy of many of the same people screaming the praises of the first game is admittedly never going to be as popular with that crowd. :P

-

As far as the space game goes... wouldn't the lever be the first "machine"?

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here