The Final Fantasy VII Remake is a Fantasy

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I love how fans claim it's perfect game, then complain about wanting a remake.

Well then, thank god that FFVII remake nonsense is over, now maybe Square can focus on something good, like The World Ends With You 2 that a million and seven people want. It's a DS game, couldn't be that expensive, time consuming maybe, but at least it would be better than FFVII.

If the fans are interested in keeping the script and gameplay... why not just play the original game? This rabid desire for better graphics confuses me, as I always considered them the least important part of any game.

NickCaligo42:
snip

Wow, I haven't checked your facts (I typically don't, when I agree with someone, and that's my failing), but that is an impressive post.

I thought about pointing out what other developers have managed to accomplish in the same time as Square, but that seemed like a lot of work to possibly answer all of the hair splitting objections people here will inevitably have. Though I have to applaud your UT3 example. I was trying to think of a good example of something with the variety of environments of an FF game (since that is the stock objection to someone bringing up Fallout 3 or Oblivion), and that's an excellent one.

So...no remake? Sigh. I will still hold out hope till I die, but it's a very small hope. Hm...how about if they make a movie out of it? They might be able to get away with that. Oh! Or, they could make another Chrono game. One that actually ends on a happy note instead of C.C.

On another note, there seems to be a lot of barely-contained rage in this thread. People yelling at each other, "I know more about this than you do," even though I'm pretty sure no one on here has the full picture. Do posters normally tell the author that he's plain wrong? Seems a little rude.

Labcoat Samurai:

NickCaligo42:
snip

Wow, I haven't checked your facts (I typically don't, when I agree with someone, and that's my failing), but that is an impressive post.

I thought about pointing out what other developers have managed to accomplish in the same time as Square, but that seemed like a lot of work to possibly answer all of the hair splitting objections people here will inevitably have. Though I have to applaud your UT3 example. I was trying to think of a good example of something with the variety of environments of an FF game (since that is the stock objection to someone bringing up Fallout 3 or Oblivion), and that's an excellent one.

Pfft. If they tried to make THE ENTIRETY OF MIDGAR explorable the way the Elder Scrolls games do with their environments, which is what I THINK they're trying to project on, then I'd say it'd take them a million billion years. That'd entail a complete re-design of the game, which'd be stupid, but it's the kind of stupid thing they'd try to do. Let's not forget this is the same company that thought "what would Half-Life be like as an RPG?" and came up with Dirge of Cerberus.

Sniper Team 4:
On another note, there seems to be a lot of barely-contained rage in this thread. People yelling at each other, "I know more about this than you do," even though I'm pretty sure no one on here has the full picture. Do posters normally tell the author that he's plain wrong? Seems a little rude.

Yeah, I don't know where get off doing that either.

I doubt I'll get a response here, but when you get past the whole "fanboy" thing, you have to realize that what they are saying makes absolutly zero sense.

Simply put graphics technology upgraded because the new stuff was better than the old stuff. It built on that foundation.

It is total nonsense to say that current generation technology cannot produce something that was done two generations ago at a higher quality level. If this was actually the case, I doubt the current tech would have become the standard, as it would have been deemed impossible to work with.

When it comes to the expense of modern graphics technology, well I'll go so far as to say that's more an issue of the industry having to reform itself, something I've covered in other, unrelated posts. Simply put the cost of games has been skyrocketing because developers are demanding larger, and larger amounts of money. While some people will have you believe that they make very little money, or merely a hundred thousand dollars a year (as per Maxim), when you look at the development budgets for these games, subtract the cost of hardware and office space (which might cost a few million, but that's chump change compared to these budgets) and you rapidly realize that the rest of that money is going towards human resources.

Some have argued that making these piles of money is not unfair for someone "with a college degree" but honestly just about everyone has a college degree nowadays. People with degrees who do far more complicated, or dangerous/potentially dangerous jobs do not make what these guys are demanding when you look at that math.

What this means is that if the game industry is going to engage in cartel behavior anyway, it should work on doing things like instituting an industry wide salary cap on how much will be paid to people for certain jobs. If everyone does it, the employees can't just jump ship for whomever will pay the most. This would bring costs down to a much more reasonable level I feel.... but this gets into another entire arguement. Assuming of course one actually believes the bit about it being truely "cost prohibitive".

All of this aside though, one also has to look at what OTHER game companies have been doing with the current generation technology. Doing these cities with current generation technology is too complicated? So are all the character models? Has anyone bothered to look at games like "Saint's Row 2" or "Grand Theft Auto IV" where entire cities have been designed in full, active, animated 3d, and there are dozens of character models running around with a number of unique lines of voice acting apiece?

The thing is that while Final Fantasy VII might involve a number of differant enviroments, none of them were especially large. Much like how there are only a couple of areas to "The Citadel" in Mass Effect despite it being (conceptually) much larger than that. I doubt that in doing the entirety of Final Fantasy VII, that they would wind up having to create more unique buildings than exist in a lot of these sandbox games. Also being what it is, there is no expectation that on top of that everything that exists will have to be interactable and destructable a piece at a time.

The problem here is that the claims that are being made seem to be obvious lies, you look at other games and it's totally transparent. If it comes down to money issues, which other games are being made despite the massive required budgets, then really I think it's time to sit back and do some thinking. Final Fantasy VII is an incredible game and all, but if it's costing you as much money as it would probably take to have your own satellite launched, you might really want to stop and look at how much some of these guys are getting paid. Apologies to the industry, but your doing something wrong when it takes more money than the yearly gross national product of most third world nations.

-

Now, as far as the fanboyism and "Squeenix is Evil" thing goes, I'll cut past all those bits above and get down to what my inner cynic tells me.

"Final Fantasy" is a massive brand name, people run out and buy stuff with the name on it in droves because it's basically spawned a video gaming subculture unto itself. Even a giant pile of dog crap would probably sell well if it had "Final Fantasy" stamped on it. It's kind of like "Star Wars" in that respect.

Squeenix has gotten big, it's realized it doesn't have to work seriously for a while. It can pretty much coast on brand recognition alone. Put in a mediocre effort (maybe not dog poop) release the game with the "brand name label" and soon the dump trucks full of money will be backed up around the block.

I doubt that there would be any issue with doing Final Fantasy VII and making a decent profit. However I think the problem is that it's not about making a decent profit anymore, but about getting the largest possible returns for the least possible investment. A cinematic "hallway hack" like "Final Fantasy XIII" is probably easier to develop, and costs less than Final Fantasy VII... and probably will move as many units as FF VII would. Due to the lower cost it makes more money. For the cost of doing FF VII and making fans happy, they could make a lot more money by releasing two games on the level of FF XIII.

The problem here is that the claims as to why they can't do something make no sense, when other people are arguably doing most of the same things graphically. Not to mention the fact that if the current graphics technology was that hard to work with, it never would have become an industry standard, it would still be being worked on while we'd all be playing the PS-2/X-box right now.

FloodOne:

Crunchy English:
snip

Besides guys, Final Fantasy 4 better.

I like the cut of your jib.

Except Final fantasy VI was the best. Don't believe me? Play it yourself and see.

Played 6, liked certain parts. Kefka is a great villain. Ending was better than 4's. Music was better in 6 too.

But for me, 4 reigns supreme. Its the one I never get tired of playing.

I think it'd be cool if they went in the opposite direction and made Final Fantasy 7 with the hand-drawn 2D graphics like in Final Fantasy Tactics A2 or something, and released it on the DS.

Well, I have to admit, I was one of the nay-sayers. But after reading the article and having it explained properly, I can understand why it would suck to remake. Though, I do have to agree with everyone else who has said "I don't see how it would take any longer or be any more expensive than making a new FF title."

Well, they shouldn't teased people in the first place. Now people will demand and still claim it's easy to make. Just go do it, don't bitch. EtcEtc. JRPG's never interested me, so lol..Square Enix is nothing for me atm.

I call B.S. on this article and B.S. that they can't do it. The bottom line is that they don't want to do it, which is understandable. But why don't they just come out and say they don't want to do it rather than come off as completely incompetent to their fans.

See what you've done now; after reading this I now have Those That Fight Further stuck in my head.

They'll do it. It may not be a scene for scene, mechanic for mechanic remake, but they will remake it in one form or another. It's the single most valuable IP they have and, for reasons beyond me, this game's story and characters have the most resonance among their target audience. Unless they come up with some new killer IP, and FFXIII ain't it, dimes to dollars they'll come back to FFVII in a big way.

Honestly, they're running out of remake material. After FFVI and Dragon Quest VI get their 3D update on the DS (FFVI is certainty as far as I'm concerned), what have they got left that's feasible remake material? Parasite Eve? Nope. Soul Blazer? Nope. Xenogears? If you think FFVII is never going to get made, then definitely forget this game. Vagrant Story is the most obvious candidate for an easy transition to modern consoles and expectations.

So while I totally agree that a FFVII remake would be expensive, and is probably impossible as a town for town remake, I think the game will see a serious update, albeit in a slightly different form than fanboys are probably hoping for.

FloodOne:

Crunchy English:
The game isn't worth it, is the thing no one wants to tell fans. It was big, not just because of what it was, but because of when it was. The cost doesn't balance out with the final product. A remake would be weak on narrative since it retells a story we've been constantly exposed to for over a decade. It would be on treacherous ground gameplay wise, either undoing everything SquareEnix has tried in the last few additions or just stomp all over something everyone liked in 7.

Besides guys, Final Fantasy 4 better.

I like the cut of your jib.

Except Final fantasy VI was the best. Don't believe me? Play it yourself and see.

I have. I don't think it is. I think it's one of the worse ones (of the main series) in fact.

5 and Tactics are the best Final Fantasy games, counting all the spin-offs and such. I'd say Tactics is the best Square game period actually.

I understand what you're saying Shamus, and I agree. But there's just one problem with your analysis.

Square-Enix could simply STOP making shit-games like FFXIII (and I imagine Versus and whatever other "Crysto-fabula-nova" shit they're releasing will be equally garbage) - and focus all of THOSE resources into the FF7 remake.

They have the money, they have the resources, and they have the time - but currently all three are committed to far inferior projects. S-E has been on a publishing BINGE lately - from the utterly mediocre Just Cause 2 to the offensively awful Nier or FF13.

An FF7 remake would probably double the profits of all of those games combined, making it worth the effort.

Honestly, though, S-E's track record has been shit lately, including the bit of "retconning" they did in Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus, which makes me fear for how they'd ruin FF7 in a remake.

So I'm ambivalent.

Crunchy English:

FloodOne:

Crunchy English:
snip

Besides guys, Final Fantasy 4 better.

I like the cut of your jib.

Except Final fantasy VI was the best. Don't believe me? Play it yourself and see.

Played 6, liked certain parts. Kefka is a great villain. Ending was better than 4's. Music was better in 6 too.

But for me, 4 reigns supreme. Its the one I never get tired of playing.

4 is a great one too, I have it for my GBA.

But 6 had the best story, characters, villains and world. plus, the actual game design was fantastic.

I dare any other RPG developer out there to throw the apocalypse into the middle of the game and almost completely abandon linearity for that second half. Won't happen these days, but Squaresoft had the balls to do it back on the SNES.

I miss the good old days...

OT though, I just started replaying FF VII on my PSP and I gotta say... if they just did a small scale remake for release on PSN and XBL with updated textures, character models, animations and a non hax-translation, they'd have a big money maker right there. I'd pay 20-25 dollars for that on my ps3.

For.I.Am.Mad:
Yeah well....shut up. They should make the game anyway.

Hahaha, is that the new Pokemon starter? Nice.

This is why I hate the obsession most games have with graphics. The graphics eat up so much of the time and resources that what the developers can do in other (IMO much more important) areas of the game becomes limited.

good article, but you dodged the whole "design" area. When they make game you know, there is the whole art and design part, and it is a huge part. FF7 has alot of design assets, and probably a ton more we never got to see.

Sure motion capture and graphics are hard, but also designing what to add the graphics to is a big deal.

Add in the assets they must already have from the movie, and other games, and you really have a chunk of the work there.

I believe this is something they don't want to do unless they can do it right, and clearly they feel they can't attempt something of that scale right now.

I'd be fine If they remade it like X.

I Don't want it for major grapics (though Better would be good) I want want FFVII With better Spell Checking, more Poses in Cut scense, slightly better grapics and most importantly being able to buy it and have that money go to who made it, Their are some games that i would rather buy new than borrow or buy pre-owned FF games are some of them

Enigmers:
I think it'd be cool if they went in the opposite direction and made Final Fantasy 7 with the hand-drawn 2D graphics like in Final Fantasy Tactics A2 or something, and released it on the DS.

Ah It's two big for that story wise

Though that would be awesome

people dont realize that in FF7 the characters were practically made out of diamonds and boxes, and some planes. To make those models updated and on par with PS3 graphics, they'd have to go in and model every single detail as nice as they can. They have to make the clothes have realistic wrinkles, they have to make the hair look realistic, the faces have to have actual emotion. Sadly its just too much :(

wtb ff6 remake, plskkthx

Honestly, it would take just about as long as it did to make FFXIII (4 years or so). They would have to completely rebuild it from the ground up, but it definitely would not take anywhere more than 6 years to do so.

I think it goes without saying that FFXIII is a gorgeous game; at most, it would take the same amount of time to recreate VII. Yes, they would have to make a world map and more content, but there is nothing so taxing that it would take substantially longer than the most recent FF. FFXIII had a wide variety of enemies and areas as well, and it really would not take as long as they claim at all.

I totally understand if they don't want to do it just because it isn't worthwhile. In 10 or 20 years, a remake like that will be in incredibly high demand. For now, though, there's no real reason. I'm pretty sure the 40-year-development-time excuse is just being used because diehard fans won't accept "We really don't want to right now!" as an explanation.

By the way,

NickCaligo42:
SUPER SNIP

This is quite an amazing post; I recommend that anyone believing Square's explanation look here.

NickCaligo42:
Snippy Snip

I love You

bah...we all know the obvious solution to problems like this in the future will be massive animation databases, with large "trees" of variations for small differences, like walking up stairs with different weights, heights, balances etc...you get what I mean.

Not quite the venom spewing I came to look for from the base, but there are people TRYING.

For.I.Am.Mad:
Yeah well....shut up. They should make the game anyway.

Quoted for effort.

Frankly I can't help but chuckle at the whole scenario. Sure it will make money, but likely not enough to warrant remaking it in the first place. Not to mention all the backlash they will get for ruining the classical elements, likely from the same fans that are crying for a remake. But then again I just have exceedingly low expectations of the general gaming community.

Mr. Win:

astfgl:

twcblaze:

Nimbus:
I get that it would be expensive, but I still don't see why it would be more expensive than, say, making a new final fantasy game (E.G. FFXIII) from scratch, and considering it would probably sell crazy good... I'm still not seeing why not.

look at the differences between the two games, 7 had the entire overworld you could explore at just about any time, it had hundreds of characters you *could* interact with at (again) almost any point in the story, and most of them had changing dialogue.

there's a reason they've taken out the airships and running around the world map in the later games, the same reason they've bogged everyone down into the "run through this straight corridor to get to your next objective" linearity that everyone hates... exploration's expensive and time consuming.

By that argument, every future rpg (at least from square) will be as empty as FF13, because populated cities and world maps are too hard to do. It also calls into question how something like Fallout 3 is managed, what with the huge map, many interactive characters and changing dialogue.

Well Fallout 3 wasn't fabulous and pretty.

I think it's a case of FF12 being loathed by most fans. That game was enormous, especially for a JRPG. But the extremely vocal minority bashed it so much. Square just needs to stop listening to those people.

Yeah, 12 actually did the whole exploration and free world while having a stunning and living environment. That, and it was actually a good game.

I don't understand this at all. The arguments against a remake all seem to revolve around current gen graphics being too expensive. FF13 was the best game that they could make with those graphics, and how did it turn out? I didn't particularly like it, and I don't see anyone here calling it their favorite. So the logical conclusion I get from this is that fans would rather have substance over style.

I don't necessarily need a remake of FF7, but this is how I think Squenix should make all it's games from now on.
First, they need to pick a level of graphics that won't inhibit the gameplay of FF7. FF10, 12, and Dragon Quest 8 (without Goku) I'm looking at you. Hell, I'm just gonna talk about DQ8. That game played just like Dragon Quest 1, with better graphics and a few new things thrown in. And they're gonna make DQ10 for the Wii. Yeah there's one part of Squenix that's still saying, "&%^$ HD graphics, we want to make a game!" Sorry I channeled Barret there for a second.
Second, they need to pick a level of voice acting that won't inhibit the gameplay of FF7. All the fans of FF4 here, did Kain the Dragoon sound like a snake to you? He did to me. FF6 fans, who sounded more ladylike, Terra or Celes? Did you think it was funny when Celes, a general, tried to sing opera? Someone here mentioned just having voice action for the battles, just to get an idea of what the characters sound like, and I immediately though of Skies of Arcadia for the Sega Dreamcast. The developers of that game wanted full voice acting, but when it wasn't feasible they just left the battle "quips" in. Basically they could not do the best so they did the best that they could. It worked for me.

I just don't understand, everyone thinks the fanboys will riot if it's not next gen perfect. But if Squenix remade it and said, "This is what we can do to update it without changing what it is," I think most of the fanboys would understand.

Is the Final Fantasy VII fanbase so shallow as to crave more expensive graphics when they can just plug in their bloody Playstation 1?

Good on Square Enix for not milking a franchise just to appease the masses! Oh wait, they did make Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core, Last Order, and Avent Children. Phew -- and I was worried they might not have been on Nintendo's level when it comes to beating a dead horse.

UnusualStranger:

ZehGeek:
Huge swipe

I know that all $60 does not go to them, but then again, we live in an age of "Collectors edition" which you could sell the same game with a few extras and different case for a good $100.

And not to be rude, but you sound particularly pessimistic over the whole thing. And besides, I also brought up that are they not already making a new one as it is? Do they not need to spend the money to make that for a next gen and all that? Even in the Shamus explanation, they would need to pretty much restart. So, it isn't so much a port as it is a new game.

That, and the formula for the combat and all the other things is laid out. There is a general idea there, not a strict formula that needs to be followed. But then again, perhaps I am being strangely optimistic.

Eah, I'm sorry if I seemed kinda bleh, I personaly hate FFVII, and it's storyline n stuff. Cept for Zack, Zack's cool. It's mainly all the unnecarry hype.

Atleast to me, they'd still have alot of stuff to do, which would take time away from other stuff they could be doing to make money, since there a buissness, and the risk of FFVII failing miserably, even though they'd get a decent amount of money from the first night of sales n stuff; and just it seems like it wouldn't balance out.

ZehGeek:
No worries

I really didn't think much of it myself really. The characters were nice, I thought. But I'm much more of a VI guy myself. So I definitely agree with the over-hype of the thing.

However, I do recognize the risks you are pointing out. Though I have seen a couple people here have pointed out some very technical details which I was not aware of before which would make your assumptions much more valid.

Though, recently I have begun to think that perhaps Square is a bit behind in the times. New paint doesn't exactly make everything great.

NickCaligo42:

Excellent Points

And to that I could also add that they already have part of the work done; They had to redo all of the character models and some of the places for Advent Children, which could be used for the game itself.

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