Yahtzee Wrote a Book

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OANST:

Zayren:

DayDark:

OANST:
The whole thing.

oh come on there's got to be somewhere in it where you went "this is poor writing, it would have been better phrased like this".

A troll is a troll.

No, really. Everything from the first sentence on.

You gotta understand if that's kind of hard to work with, all of it? really? every single sentence could have been done better?

From your posts I get that you not exactly a fan, or you were up until a point, maybe he reviewed your favorite game. That's okay, we've all been there, we all fear the day he rips into the one game we particularly like. Yahtzee is a double edge sword, it a battle between the excitement of seeing something get owned, and the risk of being owned yourself. However in all his reviews he never really just goes "it's all shit", he digs into the substance and calls out where he see's flaws.

This is basically what I want you to do, we already know you have grief with the conversations, any particular conversation?

I actually like his reviews most of the time. Sometimes he's a little too hard on a game, but he's just giving the people what they want.

Alright, I'll give you some examples.

Slippery John tells them that he will meet them at the inn and they are upset with him for not being more clear. Did they ask? It occurs to me that everyone in this situation is an idiot.

Flamboyant signpost? What's flamboyant about it? The colors? The way the words are written? The shape of the wood? What?

The sun was making exaggerated.... Flowery language to attempt to show how clever he is without any actual substance.

Yokels eating straw, leaning against barrels. Why would yokels go into town to lean against barrels and chew on straw? Why wouldn't they just stay home and do that? It doesn't make sense and shows that he's just making this shit up as he goes along instead of creating a living, breathing world that is populated with characters that he believes in.

And the conversations are just stilted. People don't talk to other people like that. It doesn't happen.

In all honesty, can we obtain this back in Europe? x]

Thought I'd sign up and stick my oar in here. I've got a major axe to grind with Yahtzee generally. So hang onto your ears, this isn't going to be pretty. A lot of us have this pent up frustration about this interminably annoying man, and it's just reached a head with me where I feel the need to whinge about him in a long and whingey post on this thread. You may say I'm trolling but this is just my opinion, and also the opinion that most people I know either have always had, or have begun to realise the longer Yahtzee has been around.

The major problem I have with Yahtzee is the misplaced and out of whack ego he has. I'm not sure whether this developed since doing ZP, which wouldn't surprise me with all the fawning that goes on by his fans.

Truth is though (of course truth is subjective but I believe there is plenty of evidence that this is the case) he's pretty much an average Joe Shmoe jack of all trades when it comes to his writing. I'll concede that it's probably 'marginally above average' in the sense that he has a better grasp of writing than a lot of people, but some internet wit of the 21st century he is not.

This is fine. I'm not an internet wit of the 21st century either. I too have delved into a multitude of creative pursuits, writing comedy, tried to write a novel, making games (well I actually do this for a job, but I'll list it anyway) making music blah blah. I may not be that great at any of them but they're a nice creative outlet and I'm proud of what I do. But I do have some perspective on it.

With Yahtzee, he obviously has this persona of being an arrogant misanthrope who hates everything. Whether this is based on his real personality or is just some character he is portraying I don't know. But it really frustrates me and countless other people I know that, really, if Zero Punctuation was actually a review of books, or films, or any other medium for that matter, he would likely have almost no internet fame come from it.

When you boil it down, he's come up with this one (admittedly rather clever, initially) gimmick that was really viral and pretty funny first time round. record yourself slagging off a game, and paste it all together in Premiere so it has no space in-between the samples. A few simple flash-animation based jokes and bam, internet celebrity.

But really, if you boil it down to what it is, actually consider the writing, basically a collection of contrived simile humour and general grumpiness. It's clear where Yahtzee's influences come from, just as it's clear this book is his attempt to 'do a Pratchett' but they are at best completely average, as are his games, his written pieces, everything I've seen of his. (In fact his AGS games were bloody awful in my opinion, CLOMP, CLOMP. How can someone who put those footstep sounds in a game criticize ANY game is beyond me)

Now that's fine, I'm not having a go. Well I am, but I'm not having a go because he's average. I'm sure all my creative endeavours are equally average, perhaps even worse. But what you have here is some massive ego (who actually indirectly implies in one of the ZP's that when his journie days are over he'll be able to get a writing job at Bioware, and has had a competition where entrants put HIM in a game. Urgh) who very harshly and unfairly criticises practically every game he plays, publicly, to a large audience.

But the thing that's so annoying is that, in the same breath, he'll be using crap random simile humour masquerading as 'surrealist' and frustratingly awkward writing, anger inducingly smug photos and personality void and cringe worthy presenting (Game Damage) AND JEEZ THAT HAT. He's just a guy who does a lot of average (or just plain bad, in some cases) stuff that lucked upon a gimmick which has seen him get a lot of internet exposure and recognition.

Long and short of it: If you're going to criticize other people's work, then either make sure whatever you do is bloody spectacular and doesn't commit the same sins (or worse) as the stuff you're criticizing, or at best at least be a bit self-deprecating and humble from time to time, or even betray a bit of your child-like enthusiasm at the occasional thing that does deserve it.

Basically, the awesome awesomeness that is Charlie Brooker is everything Yahtzee so clearly wants to be. This is a genuinely brilliant guy that any subjective person should be able to appreciate is massively talented. He has the same grumpy hate filled ranting style, use of crude or potentially offensive similes and can be mind-blowingly harsh in his critiques, he's massively into games and 'coincidently' I also hear a great deal of similar speech patterns and jokes in Yahtzee's stuff.

The difference however, is that get Charlie Brooker talking about The Wire or Doctor Who, and he'll just explode with joyful enthusiasm and praise. He's a proper critic / reviewer, directing his scorn where it is deserved, not as some blanket tool for LOLs in a rather cynically targeted 'what new game shall I hate in a harsh way this week with no punctuation'.

He also excels at writing, presenting and all other things that in my opinion Yahtzee gets FAR too much credit for.

Brooker: "No wonder most of the contestants fall apart quicker than a leper in a wind tunnel"
Yahtzee (apparently): "Spreading the Branston Pickle too thinly on the bread"

I just pulled this example from someone's quote earlier in the thread and attributed to him (since it infuriated me by being massively lame example, simply substituting 'butter' from a well known phrase with a brand name of some sandwich condiment. This is the subject of all this adoration? Jeez.

So to sum up. This book is cringe-worthily bad. You may enjoy it, and you're completely entitled to obviously. You may defend it. Of course you will, you're a fan. But know that all the people in this thread who have said, in no uncertain terms 'this writing is bad' are not just pulling this critisism out of their a*se. Without the rose tinted spectacles of being a fan, reading the prose in that sample chapter is truly cringeworthy, not only for it's woefully failed attempt to replicate Pratchett's writing style, it's stiff and redundant dialogue, or needlessly flowery descriptions. But because there it is, with a front cover image and that smug photo of Yahtzee. He's getting so big for his boots, and he's using your praise like some kind of vampire and is becoming more and more powerful and NOOOOOO.

If it were a friend of mine that wrote those words in the sample chapter, or someone who posts on a forum I frequent, who said 'oh I know I'm not a professional writer, but I gave this a go and am quite proud of it' I would probably read it and think (and say) hey, this is pretty good! I would be erring on the side of being supportive and looking for the positives in it than dwelling on the negatives, but I wouldn't for one minute think it should have 'Barnes and Noble' slapped on the cover.

However, this was not made by some unsure aspiring writer on a forum, or my sister, or my friend. It's this 'internet phenomena' who makes a living, and has a legion of unwavering fans for his gimmicky, arrogant and extremely unfair whining about games on weekly videos on Escapist. Making critical points about games which commit far more forgiveable sins than what can be read in practically every line of that sample chapter.

So for all you who get defensive as soon as someone says something he's done is bad. Christ, settle down. This guy makes a living out of saying other people's stuff is bad. So you like it? Some people like stuff that, critically, isn't really that special, just captures people's imagination and when they buy into it, that will elevate the perceived quality and cleverness of whatever it is. This seems to be continuously propagating, culminating in people pre-ordering this book on amazon and stating in this thread that what they have read is funny and well written.

Where will it end? I can't wait for the reviews, as without the gaming culture LOL factor and ZC's undeserved prestige, it's going to get a horrible horrible panning in practically every review if the sample chapter is anything to go by.

So you've bought into it. You love it! To us that haven't bought into it, though. We see it naked, without the cloak of fandom and it is found lacking. Mix this with the ego, the punchable photos, the journalisticaly wobbly criticisms made purely for the sake of maintaining his gimmick, and yet all these people who somehow, inexplicably, haven't yet worked out that it's all really packaging and no filling, makes him perhaps the most infuriating person on the entire internet.

Of course this undoubtedly leads me to by harsher in my critical eye of his work, but this is only natural. I just hope this book is perhaps the catalyst I hoped Game Damage would be, where he is finally exposed as just another internet guy who had a good idea once, and not some messiah of game culture comedy.

This all sounds horribly harsh, I know. You're just going to cry 'troll', I can see it coming already. But by golly this is years of pent up rage for this guy. Okay, comedy is subjective to a point, but not as much as people say. The ability to write well is much less subjective, however. There are many amazingly awesome game journalists, authors, critics, game writers and comedians. Yahtzee isn't one of them, and never will be, especially not if he's getting positive reinforcement no matter how lame his material gets.

Stop feeding his ego so much with this blind worship that everything he does is 'hil-ar-ious'.

If you do, he might have to try harder and make better stuff, instead of you disabling his internal 'sh*t filter' and convincing him everything he does is spectacularly awesome, when it's not. You're just hurting him in the long run and giving him further to fall when more people start to figure it out.

Well, I was thinking of maybe getting it, but now that I've read the excerpt I decided I'm DEFINITELY going to order it! As soon as amazon.com announces a release date, in fact. (I make it a point never to pre-order items that do not have a firm release date posted.)

If it's anything like "articulate Jim: a search for something", I'm sure I'll like it. I don't usually order stuff online though, so It'll be interesting to see if they will sell it in any bookstores in my hometown.

MrSpectabular:
Thought I'd sign up and stick my oar in here. I've got a major axe to grind with Yahtzee generally. So hang onto your ears, this isn't going to be pretty. A lot of us have this pent up frustration about this interminably annoying man, and it's just reached a head with me where I feel the need to whinge about him in a long and whingey post on this thread. You may say I'm trolling but this is just my opinion, and also the opinion that most people I know either have always had, or have begun to realise the longer Yahtzee has been around.

The major problem I have with Yahtzee is the misplaced and out of whack ego he has. I'm not sure whether this developed since doing ZP, which wouldn't surprise me with all the fawning that goes on by his fans.

Truth is though (of course truth is subjective but I believe there is plenty of evidence that this is the case) he's pretty much an average Joe Shmoe jack of all trades when it comes to his writing. I'll concede that it's probably 'marginally above average' in the sense that he has a better grasp of writing than a lot of people, but some internet wit of the 21st century he is not.

This is fine. I'm not an internet wit of the 21st century either. I too have delved into a multitude of creative pursuits, writing comedy, tried to write a novel, making games (well I actually do this for a job, but I'll list it anyway) making music blah blah. I may not be that great at any of them but they're a nice creative outlet and I'm proud of what I do. But I do have some perspective on it.

With Yahtzee, he obviously has this persona of being an arrogant misanthrope who hates everything. Whether this is based on his real personality or is just some character he is portraying I don't know. But it really frustrates me and countless other people I know that, really, if Zero Punctuation was actually a review of books, or films, or any other medium for that matter, he would likely have almost no internet fame come from it.

When you boil it down, he's come up with this one (admittedly rather clever, initially) gimmick that was really viral and pretty funny first time round. record yourself slagging off a game, and paste it all together in Premiere so it has no space in-between the samples. A few simple flash-animation based jokes and bam, internet celebrity.

But really, if you boil it down to what it is, actually consider the writing, basically a collection of contrived simile humour and general grumpiness. It's clear where Yahtzee's influences come from, just as it's clear this book is his attempt to 'do a Pratchett' but they are at best completely average, as are his games, his written pieces, everything I've seen of his. (In fact his AGS games were bloody awful in my opinion, CLOMP, CLOMP. How can someone who put those footstep sounds in a game criticize ANY game is beyond me)

Now that's fine, I'm not having a go. Well I am, but I'm not having a go because he's average. I'm sure all my creative endeavours are equally average, perhaps even worse. But what you have here is some massive ego (who actually indirectly implies in one of the ZP's that when his journie days are over he'll be able to get a writing job at Bioware, and has had a competition where entrants put HIM in a game. Urgh) who very harshly and unfairly criticises practically every game he plays, publicly, to a large audience.

But the thing that's so annoying is that, in the same breath, he'll be using crap random simile humour masquerading as 'surrealist' and frustratingly awkward writing, anger inducingly smug photos and personality void and cringe worthy presenting (Game Damage) AND JEEZ THAT HAT. He's just a guy who does a lot of average (or just plain bad, in some cases) stuff that lucked upon a gimmick which has seen him get a lot of internet exposure and recognition.

Long and short of it: If you're going to criticize other people's work, then either make sure whatever you do is bloody spectacular and doesn't commit the same sins (or worse) as the stuff you're criticizing, or at best at least be a bit self-deprecating and humble from time to time, or even betray a bit of your child-like enthusiasm at the occasional thing that does deserve it.

Basically, the awesome awesomeness that is Charlie Brooker is everything Yahtzee so clearly wants to be. This is a genuinely brilliant guy that any subjective person should be able to appreciate is massively talented. He has the same grumpy hate filled ranting style, use of crude or potentially offensive similes and can be mind-blowingly harsh in his critiques, he's massively into games and 'coincidently' I also hear a great deal of similar speech patterns and jokes in Yahtzee's stuff.

The difference however, is that get Charlie Brooker talking about The Wire or Doctor Who, and he'll just explode with joyful enthusiasm and praise. He's a proper critic / reviewer, directing his scorn where it is deserved, not as some blanket tool for LOLs in a rather cynically targeted 'what new game shall I hate in a harsh way this week with no punctuation'.

He also excels at writing, presenting and all other things that in my opinion Yahtzee gets FAR too much credit for.

Brooker: "No wonder most of the contestants fall apart quicker than a leper in a wind tunnel"
Yahtzee (apparently): "Spreading the Branston Pickle too thinly on the bread"

I just pulled this example from someone's quote earlier in the thread and attributed to him (since it infuriated me by being massively lame example, simply substituting 'butter' from a well known phrase with a brand name of some sandwich condiment. This is the subject of all this adoration? Jeez.

So to sum up. This book is cringe-worthily bad. You may enjoy it, and you're completely entitled to obviously. You may defend it. Of course you will, you're a fan. But know that all the people in this thread who have said, in no uncertain terms 'this writing is bad' are not just pulling this critisism out of their a*se. Without the rose tinted spectacles of being a fan, reading the prose in that sample chapter is truly cringeworthy, not only for it's woefully failed attempt to replicate Pratchett's writing style, it's stiff and redundant dialogue, or needlessly flowery descriptions. But because there it is, with a front cover image and that smug photo of Yahtzee. He's getting so big for his boots, and he's using your praise like some kind of vampire and is becoming more and more powerful and NOOOOOO.

If it were a friend of mine that wrote those words in the sample chapter, or someone who posts on a forum I frequent, who said 'oh I know I'm not a professional writer, but I gave this a go and am quite proud of it' I would probably read it and think (and say) hey, this is pretty good! I would be erring on the side of being supportive and looking for the positives in it than dwelling on the negatives, but I wouldn't for one minute think it should have 'Barnes and Noble' slapped on the cover.

However, this was not made by some unsure aspiring writer on a forum, or my sister, or my friend. It's this 'internet phenomena' who makes a living, and has a legion of unwavering fans for his gimmicky, arrogant and extremely unfair whining about games on weekly videos on Escapist. Making critical points about games which commit far more forgiveable sins than what can be read in practically every line of that sample chapter.

So for all you who get defensive as soon as someone says something he's done is bad. Christ, settle down. This guy makes a living out of saying other people's stuff is bad. So you like it? Some people like stuff that, critically, isn't really that special, just captures people's imagination and when they buy into it, that will elevate the perceived quality and cleverness of whatever it is. This seems to be continuously propagating, culminating in people pre-ordering this book on amazon and stating in this thread that what they have read is funny and well written.

Where will it end? I can't wait for the reviews, as without the gaming culture LOL factor and ZC's undeserved prestige, it's going to get a horrible horrible panning in practically every review if the sample chapter is anything to go by.

So you've bought into it. You love it! To us that haven't bought into it, though. We see it naked, without the cloak of fandom and it is found lacking. Mix this with the ego, the punchable photos, the journalisticaly wobbly criticisms made purely for the sake of maintaining his gimmick, and yet all these people who somehow, inexplicably, haven't yet worked out that it's all really packaging and no filling, makes him perhaps the most infuriating person on the entire internet.

Of course this undoubtedly leads me to by harsher in my critical eye of his work, but this is only natural. I just hope this book is perhaps the catalyst I hoped Game Damage would be, where he is finally exposed as just another internet guy who had a good idea once, and not some messiah of game culture comedy.

This all sounds horribly harsh, I know. You're just going to cry 'troll', I can see it coming already. But by golly this is years of pent up rage for this guy. Okay, comedy is subjective to a point, but not as much as people say. The ability to write well is much less subjective, however. There are many amazingly awesome game journalists, authors, critics, game writers and comedians. Yahtzee isn't one of them, and never will be, especially not if he's getting positive reinforcement no matter how lame his material gets.

Stop feeding his ego so much with this blind worship that everything he does is 'hil-ar-ious'.

If you do, he might have to try harder and make better stuff, instead of you disabling his internal 'sh*t filter' and convincing him everything he does is spectacularly awesome, when it's not. You're just hurting him in the long run and giving him further to fall when more people start to figure it out.

Holy crap. There is no way in hell that I'm going to read all of that.

It wasn't written to be read, particularly. I just REALLY needed to get this off my chest.

Summary: Yahtzee = Overrated. An infuriating and average, at best, writer who struck it lucky with a viral video and is getting way too big for his boots. Like an ELEPHANT CHEWING A RABID BICYCLE as his 'random pointless simile generator' would probably say.

OANST:
I actually like his reviews most of the time. Sometimes he's a little too hard on a game, but he's just giving the people what they want.

Alright, I'll give you some examples.

Slippery John tells them that he will meet them at the inn and they are upset with him for not being more clear. Did they ask? It occurs to me that everyone in this situation is an idiot.

Well, since john said the inn, there was probably no reason to think there would be any other inns, of course we don't know when he said it, so we don't really know if they had the opportunity to get more detailed information.

Flamboyant signpost? What's flamboyant about it? The colors? The way the words are written? The shape of the wood? What?

I get what you mean here, you wanted him to elaborate further on the sign, but I'm guessing that it would be a little weird suddenly going into detail about the sign, when it was what it said that was important. I think the fact that it was flamboyant was simply to highlight the ridiculousness of the situation.

The sun was making exaggerated.... Flowery language to attempt to show how clever he is without any actual substance.

It is colorful language, but I don't feel that he's attempting at being clever, it's a creative way of saying it's getting late.

Yokels eating straw, leaning against barrels. Why would yokels go into town to lean against barrels and chew on straw? Why wouldn't they just stay home and do that? It doesn't make sense and shows that he's just making this shit up as he goes along instead of creating a living, breathing world that is populated with characters that he believes in.

I think all of this was a way to tell that the place used to be far out and unimportant, isolated from other civilization. The important parts not being why they do what they are and do. they are inbred sexually frustrated yokels, hence that it used to be a isolated nowhere town.

And the conversations are just stilted. People don't talk to other people like that. It doesn't happen.

not trying to be a pain, but you have to give me an example on this, because honestly can't see what you mean, are you talking about Jims encounter with the elfknight single word answers?

DayDark:

OANST:
I actually like his reviews most of the time. Sometimes he's a little too hard on a game, but he's just giving the people what they want.

Alright, I'll give you some examples.

Slippery John tells them that he will meet them at the inn and they are upset with him for not being more clear. Did they ask? It occurs to me that everyone in this situation is an idiot.

Well, since john said the inn, there was probably no reason to think there would be any other inns, of course we don't know when he said it, so we don't really know if they had the opportunity to get more detailed information.

Flamboyant signpost? What's flamboyant about it? The colors? The way the words are written? The shape of the wood? What?

I get what you mean here, you wanted him to elaborate further on the sign, but I'm guessing that it would be a little weird suddenly going into detail about the sign, when it was what it said that was important. I think the fact that it was flamboyant was simply to highlight the ridiculousness of the situation.

The sun was making exaggerated.... Flowery language to attempt to show how clever he is without any actual substance.

It is colorful language, but I don't feel that he's attempting at being clever, it's a creative way of saying it's getting late.

Yokels eating straw, leaning against barrels. Why would yokels go into town to lean against barrels and chew on straw? Why wouldn't they just stay home and do that? It doesn't make sense and shows that he's just making this shit up as he goes along instead of creating a living, breathing world that is populated with characters that he believes in. [quote]

I think all of this was a way to tell that the place used to be far out and unimportant, isolated from other civilization. The important parts not being why they do what they are and do. they are inbred sexually frustrated yokels, hence that it used to be a isolated nowhere town.

[quote]
And the conversations are just stilted. People don't talk to other people like that. It doesn't happen.

not trying to be a pain, but you have to give me an example on this, because honestly can't see what you mean, are you talking about Jims encounter with the elfknight single word answers?

These are by no means all of my complaints. These are just the complaints that I pulled out of the first ten sentences. I have no intention of dissecting more of it. And it was a little weird to call a sign flamboyant to begin with. Especially so if you don't intend to add two or three words explaining the flamboyance.

OANST:

These are by no means all of my complaints. These are just the complaints that I pulled out of the first ten sentences. I have no intention of dissecting more of it. And it was a little weird to call a sign flamboyant to begin with. Especially so if you don't intend to add two or three words explaining the flamboyance.

Well, the only problem I could have with it is that it made me think of a neon sign, and that doesn't fit the fantasy world.

DayDark:

OANST:

These are by no means all of my complaints. These are just the complaints that I pulled out of the first ten sentences. I have no intention of dissecting more of it. And it was a little weird to call a sign flamboyant to begin with. Especially so if you don't intend to add two or three words explaining the flamboyance.

Well, the only problem I could have with it is that it made me think of a neon sign, and that doesn't fit the fantasy world.

But don't you see that this is the problem with that particular line? We have no idea what he means by it. That's not good writing.

DayDark:

The sun was making exaggerated.... Flowery language to attempt to show how clever he is without any actual substance.

It is colorful language, but I don't feel that he's attempting at being clever, it's a creative way of saying it's getting late.

Oh here's an awesome thing:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

tl;dr version: A better way of saying it's getting late would have been, shockingly, 'it's getting late'.

(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

(ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.

(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.

(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

Writing it in some over the top convoluted way like that just because you think it shows the reader how clever and creative you are is generally the wrong road to be going down unless you're spectacularly masterful at it. You're writing the book to convey your story, characters and world to the reader, not to impress them with flowery ways of describing things.

What does using that phrase actually accomplish? Does it convey any particular image of HOW the sun is setting? Or is it just setting exactly like a sun sets? No image is conveyed, no insight is gained, it's just pointless fluff that makes reading the book take a little longer and doesn't help the reader get a clearer image of what's happening in the story at all.

This is basically amateur writer mistake #1 and shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire concept of good writing.

Despite the liking ZP comment, otherwise I'm 100% behind OANST and consider him 100% correct in this thread. Not just me who thinks so, GEORGE ORWELL agrees. ;D

OANST:

Okay, Sally. I'll validate you. You caught me. I'm a bad person and a big meanie-pants who hurt your feelings and said bad things about your favorite troll. I happen to be right, but that's besides the point. I feel terrible for the way that I've said completely true things about this guy that you don't know's writing abilities. In the future if I have nothing nice to say then I won't say anything at all.

Cute, little prick like you thinks he's something. Gone from the astute critic to the slinking away troll muffin? What, have I cramped your style or is it that you never had one to begin with?

Venatio:

OANST:

Okay, Sally. I'll validate you. You caught me. I'm a bad person and a big meanie-pants who hurt your feelings and said bad things about your favorite troll. I happen to be right, but that's besides the point. I feel terrible for the way that I've said completely true things about this guy that you don't know's writing abilities. In the future if I have nothing nice to say then I won't say anything at all.

Cute, little prick like you thinks he's something. Gone from the astute critic to the slinking away troll muffin? What, have I cramped your style or is it that you never had one to begin with?

No. I was just mocking you. Slow on the uptake, eh?

Venatio:

Cute, little prick like you thinks he's something. Gone from the astute critic to the slinking away troll muffin? What, have I cramped your style or is it that you never had one to begin with?

Amazing. With your deft grasp of irony I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee. :p

OANST:

No. I was just mocking you. Slow on the uptake, eh?

Either keep this civil or dont respond because a troll ike you is not worth my time.

Venatio:

OANST:

No. I was just mocking you. Slow on the uptake, eh?

Oh no, I just think that your an abolsute failure at everything. Either keep this civil or dont respond because a troll ike you is not worth my time.

Amazing. With your deft grasp of irony I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee. :p

MrSpectabular:

Venatio:

Cute, little prick like you thinks he's something. Gone from the astute critic to the slinking away troll muffin? What, have I cramped your style or is it that you never had one to begin with?

Amazing. With your deft grasp of irony I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee. :p

Haha, very funny.

You'll note my grasp of sarcasm which, according to you, might also make me fond of Yahtzee.

Did you just double post?

If he read it, he would probably talk as fast as he did in Zero Punctuation which I would not be able to understand.

Venatio:

OANST:

No. I was just mocking you. Slow on the uptake, eh?

Oh no, I just think that your an abolsute failure at everything. Either keep this civil or dont respond because a troll ike you is not worth my time.

Apparently not as you keep responding. Anyway, it was you that started with the insults, but don't worry. I won't mention that you're a hypocrite who throws a tantrum if other people say bad things about stuff that you like.

Venatio:

Haha, very funny.

You'll note my grasp of sarcasm which.

Very creative and witty use of sarcasm too. I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee.

And you can pre-order it at Amazon and Amazon dot co dot UK.

martin's a madman:
And you can pre-order it at Amazon and Amazon dot co dot UK.

Where?

Venatio:

Did you just double post?

Oh this is too much. I suddenly understand why Yahtzee is so popular.

With your deft grasp of repetition used for humour I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee.

I'm going to ... I think fifth the request for an audiobook version read by Yahtzee. One less thing for my daughter to rip up in her quest to destroy all non-board books.

OANST:

martin's a madman:
And you can pre-order it at Amazon and Amazon dot co dot UK.

Where?

Haha, I was referencing the little messages he places after his Zero Punctuation videos. Amazon is a website where things can be purchased. (I think)

martin's a madman:

OANST:

martin's a madman:
And you can pre-order it at Amazon and Amazon dot co dot UK.

Where?

Haha, I was referencing the little messages he places after his Zero Punctuation videos. Amazon is a website where things can be purchased. (I think)

I know. I was trying to give you the opportunity to say it again.

OANST:

martin's a madman:

OANST:

martin's a madman:
And you can pre-order it at Amazon and Amazon dot co dot UK.

Where?

Haha, I was referencing the little messages he places after his Zero Punctuation videos. Amazon is a website where things can be purchased. (I think)

I know. I was trying to give you the opportunity to say it again.

Well I feel stupid.

MrSpectabular:

Venatio:

Did you just double post?

Oh this is too much. I suddenly understand why Yahtzee is so popular.

With your deft grasp of repetition used for humour I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee.

I am being insulted by a forum noob - lovely.

Venatio:

MrSpectabular:

Venatio:

Did you just double post?

Oh this is too much. I suddenly understand why Yahtzee is so popular.

With your deft grasp of repetition used for humour I can understand why you're so fond of Yahtzee.

I am being insulted by a forum noob - lovely.

No one more deserving.

Venatio:

I am being insulted by a forum noob - lovely.

I am genuinely sorry. We fall on opposite sides of the battlefield, purely because you like Yahtzee, and I have so much untempered hate for him it automatically makes me judge everyone who likes him, perhaps it's snobbish to do so, sure, but I judge all the same.

I'm sure you're lovely, really.

But you must appreciate how for someone coming here looking for validation as to why this man of questionable talent can be so popular, and then have one of his most vocal defenders misunderstand about 5 jokes in quick succession and miss out on some pretty blatant irony somewhat validates my opinion a little?

MrSpectabular:

Oh here's an awesome thing:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

tl;dr version: A better way of saying it's getting late would have been, shockingly, 'it's getting late'.

(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

(ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.

(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.

(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

Writing it in some over the top convoluted way like that just because you think it shows the reader how clever and creative you are is generally the wrong road to be going down unless you're spectacularly masterful at it. You're writing the book to convey your story, characters and world to the reader, not to impress them with flowery ways of describing things.

What does using that phrase actually accomplish? Does it convey any particular image of HOW the sun is setting? Or is it just setting exactly like a sun sets? No image is conveyed, no insight is gained, it's just pointless fluff that makes reading the book take a little longer and doesn't help the reader get a clearer image of what's happening in the story at all.

I think it does pretty well, I actually like the symbolism of the whole sentence, both the characteristics of the suns situation and "mood", tells that it's getting late. It creates atmosphere, It's funny I've just read this other book which also colorfully described a sunset. "As the sun sets - a ball of molten iron sinking into the chilling waters of the Diamond Sea - you catch sight of Valsinore at long last". Sure you could describe that as simply, at the sun sets, you see valsinore, but that would be plain and boring.

This is basically amateur writer mistake #1 and shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire concept of good writing.

Well what is good writing really, I didn't know that there was a standard, and usually people are very at odds about what that standard is.

The paper you link to, George Orwell seems to focus completely on expressing oneself clearly, when the goal is clarity, not entertainment or creative ways of expressing a setting. Indeed George Orwell talks specifically about the political use of the language, and how better clarity can be achieved by not over expressing yourself, when you need people to understand you as best as possible.

In Yahtzees description of the sunset, he starts by saying that the day is wearing thin, effectively making sure that the reader knows already from this what 'time' of day it is, and then proceeds to 'paint' a picture of it, or set the mood. Like a descriptive "!". If we apply George Orwells guidelines, even though they aren't IMO meant to be applied to this form of writing, Yahtzee wouldn't even be able to write that the day is wearing thin, because this is a metaphor, and someone could misunderstand it, it would lack precision.

Despite the liking ZP comment, otherwise I'm 100% behind OANST and consider him 100% correct in this thread. Not just me who thinks so, GEORGE ORWELL agrees. ;D

I didn't find it particularly amateurish, at least it wasn't boring, but than again I find that the terms, amateurish writing and good writing to blend together a little since given the lack of concrete examples.

OANST:

But don't you see that this is the problem with that particular line? We have no idea what he means by it. That's not good writing.

No not really, I mean he describes it as flamboyant, as in having the characteristics that flamboyant covers.

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