259: Vaginophobia

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Nesrie:
The hostility found in these comments pretty much proves just how insecure some of these male gamers actually are. The 40% is an accurate number, and no amount of chest thumping is going to explain that away.

this!

I'd like to see a comprehensive Bechdel Test of video game culture.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the medium has a staggering surplus of females who are constantly in want of direct or indirect affirmation from their male counterparts.

I thought it was quite obvious that the average game caters to a rather infantile boys room demographic.

Blue-State:
Forgive me if I find the first part a little hard to believe

Considering about 95% of my female friends all play video games ranging from Action to Puzzles, I'm not so sure what's so hard to believe about it.

Nesrie:
The hostility found in these comments pretty much proves just how insecure some of these male gamers actually are. The 40% is an accurate number, and no amount of chest thumping is going to explain that away.

Quite agreed.

The Random One:

Susan Arendt:

Konrad Curze:
Ouch. Busted recycling your own articles. How embarrassing for you.
I am not gonna read the same article again but I do remember thinking it was a load of crap last time.

It's embarrassing to run an article in a "Best of" issue? That's pretty much the point of a Best Of - to rerun articles you might have missed the first time that we think are worth seeing and/or discussing.

Susie and Escapist crew, you guys should maybe warn this is a repeat article, maybe on the topic's first post, to stop people from saying you were busted repeating old articles and getting warm fuzzies over it. I absolutely must not allow people to get warm fuzzies whithout my consent.

Or on the cover of the magazine, where it says 'Best Of' in great big letters? Granted, not everyone gets to the article from the front page, but how about people just not immediately assuming we're trying to pull a fast one on our readers? How would that be?

It's not the vaginas i am scared of, but the women attached...

Going back over the article, considering the choice of GTA4 as an example, i don't think it fits with the rest. In GtaVI, the use of women and sex, it's not about the women at all, it's about the life Niko leads, being the type of war vet he is, his view of any relationship is warped, even in the end with the Irish girl it's not about his affection for the girl, but his decision to settle down. All of the choices made in the game revolving women have nothing to do with the actual women involved. At least that's the way i read it.

EDIT: I don't think i explained that very well, my main point should be that it's not about the male/female role, but the life itself.

I think the article is hitting several different issues and trying to pin them as one issue and it doesn't cite it's evidence very well. I've seen a lot of better videos and articles then this one about some of the issues it's trying to portray. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ZVZRsy8N8

habslove:
"Uncharted 2: Among Thieves, Left 4 Dead 2, Assassin's Creed 2, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and Batman: Arkham Asylum.

To whom are these experiences most likely to appeal?"

I'm a girl and I love every single one of these games and I doubt I'm the only one. We're not little frail creatures that can't handle "aggressive antagonists".

Thank you! :)
Here's one thing: girls are not that different from boys. They also like to shoot things. They are also pretty violent. You should see what little girls do to their barbies...
The big difference is that adults tell them that violence is ugly! - And, of course, that if they want to be loved, they must be pretty. Girls are taught not to be excited, to be peaceful and cute.

Also... I kind of understand the female characters being hot an all... Games are also about things we'd like to experience (but in a safe place, of course) and if I'm going to experience a relationship my partner'd better be hot! - And smart, and funny and all that jazz!

Still, I agree some of the gaming community is a bit scared of woman. I remember that in both rpg events I went most guys didn't know how to react: some acted like I wasn't supposed to be there and thought I didn't know how to play / was just someone's girlfriend, some acted like they needed to seduce me or gain points with me or something, and some acted like I was just another gamer (thx God!)!

Some gamers never had much contact with girls and, yes, they are strange to them. They are a bit scary... Like everything we don't know much about.

I mostly had female friends my whole life (and they all were gamers...) so, when I started having male friends I was a bit scared of them, of course. I didn't know how to react... Were they just like my female friends?
In the end I've learned that, mostly, yes, they were a lot like my female friends and there was nothing to be afraid of.

I don't think that the fear of females applies to the whole gaming community...

Still, I wish there were more games where I can play a female character to kick other people's ass... and have a hot guy as a romantic partner! And all that jazz... (when I was little, Lara Croft was my hero... she's not enough now, though...)

I mean, if we can play as guys and enjoy it, I'm sure if companies released games with female protagonist most gamers would enjoy it too... :)

welll, I've said too much and I'm not sure if i've made my point clear. Still, just an opinion. No scientific articles to prove anything!

Sorry if there are many english mistakes, I'm not a native english speaker :)

Birdmad:

I mean, if we can play as guys and enjoy it, I'm sure if companies released games with female protagonist most gamers would enjoy it too... :)

Yeah I don't mind playing as a guy but if I can be a chick, 99% of the time that's who I play as :D

habslove:

Birdmad:

I mean, if we can play as guys and enjoy it, I'm sure if companies released games with female protagonist most gamers would enjoy it too... :)

Yeah I don't mind playing as a guy but if I can be a chick, 99% of the time that's who I play as :D

Same here! I'm always a girl at fighting games or whenever I have the option! :D

girl_in_background:
This article reminds me of all the guys who say girls either can't play games or only play games like "Farmville" and "Cooking Momma" and therefore aren't actual gamers. Maybe they should all read this article, then re-read it so they actually absorb the information.

... because guys are so stupid? If you're going to start a post by repelling your audience, why bother putting mileage on your keyboard to finish it?

I think this is a really good article, but I'm afraid that many of the male readers won't be able to come to terms with the information, because it deals with deep-seated phobias that they can't admit they have. It reminds me of the term "doublethink", from George Orwell's 1984. They don't want to admit to having these fears, so they forget they have them.

Or alternately it's a projection of what feminists want to see on people with so little opinion of the issue that they're basically a blank slate. Freudian psychology is so much snake oil, the only possible conclusion of Freudian analysis is that the subject wants to have sex with one parent and kill the other... feminists use a similar "your problems are so deep you have no idea they're there, so we'll tell you what's wrong with you" techinque and of course it always ends up that guys hate women and need to stop being so damned male and all their problems would go away. YOU ARE SHOCK.

I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy.

The sheer volume of thing guys don't notice or think / care / register an opinion about would probably count as a vegetative state for a woman. We're different. Getting along requires a more realistic prescription than "just be what girls want and everything will be fine". We wouldn't even have a feminism movement if one gender was capable of happily living up to the other's self-centered expectations, given how hard guys have tried pushing for that cause.

"I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy."

This is the kind of crap that does infuriate me >.<

I'm 100% happy being who I am - why do I have to be what you want me to be?
That whole quote makes it sound more like you have daddy issues than you care about mankind (in this use, specifically men) than anything.

I ain't broke don't fix me :D.

ShadowKirby:

JoeCool385:

"Our secular culture produces all kinds of fear, including fear of the female anatomy."

I literally lol'd at this and had to stop reading for a minute to regain my composure. Our secular culture does not, in any way, shape, or form, "fear" female anatomy. Quite the opposite, actually, to the point that it's hard to get away from it.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/7/

You are confusing culture with individuals. Individuals don't fear the female anatomy but let's just look at television. You can show some pretty violent stuff on tv but the second someone shows a boob, you get social groups (not individual members of the society, but groups) that are up in arms.

Really, I can tell the difference between culture and individuals. An individual is a single person. A culture is a shared set of values, customs, and traditions amongst people. I'm not dumb.

But that doesn't change the fact that secular culture is in love with female anatomy. It seems everywhere I turn--TV, newspapers, magazines, print ads, billboards, video games, movies, music videos--there are women wearing various kinds of revealing clothing. If someone didn't want to view it (can't imagine why not), he'd have trouble getting away from it. Also, I've seen statistics (97% of which are made up) that indicate the percentage of children that are exposed to pornography. As I recall, the majority of children have seen porn by the time they're adolescents. That (potentially made up) figure is not indicative of a society so afraid of female anatomy that it's hidden from view.

And the groups that protest female anatomy on TV? Usually religiously motivated. The key word in the quote was "secular". I wouldn't have argued otherwise. Plus, one can argue whether the groups are genuinely "afraid" in a misogynistic sort of way, or if they're just trying to fruitlessly preserve some old-fashioned sense of chastity.

Jinxey:
"I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy."

This is the kind of crap that does infuriate me >.<

I'm 100% happy being who I am - why do I have to be what you want me to be?
That whole quote makes it sound more like you have daddy issues than you care about mankind (in this use, specifically men) than anything.

I ain't broke don't fix me :D.

Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "bitch", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.

Speaking of statistics that are hard to verify, someone was quoting stats that apparently the percentage of women in computer science was much higher in the 1970s than it is now - it took a huge nosedive somewhere in the 80s.

This also lines up with my (purely anecdotal) evidence about the perception of computers and video games in the early-to-mid 1980s: they were for *everyone* rather than considered to be a "guy thing". When I was a tiny little girl, all the girls at school, even girls who would rather be set on fire than be considered in any way geeky or unfeminine, had videogames (Atari or Coleco generally). Babysitters (female) and even my mother were all quite interested in playing.

Then came the big crash, then Nintendo rising from the ashes, and then the buddings of gamer culture and the popularisation of the young socially-awkward male gamer geek. By the time I had a SNES, young neighborhood boys were gawking and whispering at the very idea that a GIRL was playing video games. The SNES was certainly not ubiquitous among my female classmates, and people like my mother retreated to playing nothing but endless games of Solitaire.

That's culture. Obviously it's not going to stop someone who knows what she wants and is determined about it, but it turns off a lot of people who were on the fence and stops others from even trying.

But it's more than just culture, because ideally we should be able to mention that "Hey, a lot of maladjusted male youths play videogames!" without making other people feel excluded or insulted. There is something in human nature that likes to categorise and pre-judge....

Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "bitch", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.

To reply in equal sarcasm,
I'm sorry I got offended at your obvious distrust/dislike for mankind being a man.
/sarcasm

1.) I listened to you
2.) Stated my emotions (I am infuriated)
3.) Stated I have an opposing opinion without using the words bitch, whore or cunt to describe you.

Isn't that what you said you wanted in the first post? Lets review!

I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy

in tune with my feelings; check.
being able and willing to talk to someone about my problem; check. (my problem being you think I got a problem).
not afraid to show I care and understand; while I don't understand I haven't said you're stupid or anything, just stated my own opposing opinion that's a check in my book.
especially if you're a guy; check.

Peace, and I mean that-

we should be able to mention that "Hey, a lot of maladjusted male youths play videogames!" without making other people feel excluded or insulted

Teacher! leave them kids alone!

I probably misunderstand the meaning of the word in this context, but when Janet Jakobsen says our secular society breeds many fears including fear of the female anatomy, it strikes me as a bit strange.
I don't think any of the churches have done anything to prevent female anatomy bashing in their "good books". Secular values have without doubt done women more good than religious values.

Now that is very true. I'm currently slugging through Alpha Protocol, and I don't really know where else to look other than Michael Thorton's bulging biceps and pecs.

After reading this article and some of the comments, (most of which are obviously men), I have only to say this:

It's frightening to be a woman- it always has been, and you gamer guys aren't making it any easier for those of us who have to live with you and game alongside you. Most of you are afraid to truly reflect on what the author said and are calling BS or coming up with excuses to make yourselves feel better. You probably feel your masculinity is at stake. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE. It's really not.

Woman are weaker physically, and now and historically we have had a lot more to loose in our encounters with the opposite sex. Misunderstanding, being treated as objects, rape- these are still prevalent today, and most have taken modern forms in the more 'civilized' countries. In videogames we see ourselves being made into objects to be oggled- we are hyper sexualized and one dimensional, and thats how the male fantasy wants it. (Male characters might be buff, but they aren't hyper sexualized- if they were they'd have giant erect penises, and cater to the desires of woman (or gay men), not to the male ego.) And to think there are games where you can kill the hussy/prostitute/girl for no reason other than 'you can' to fulfill some male fantasy is something that scares me deeply.

I am afraid of men.

Rape, in essence, is being treated as an object. Think about it... you don't care about her (or the general representation of women). They exist 'for you', to be feared, to be used for whatever pleasure you want at the time. When you treat a girl in a game as an object in order to act out your angst against women you are in essence raping all women, (or that woman if it is someone in particular).

We are people. Human beings, with hopes and dreams. We are your mothers, sisters, and daughters. We as a gender are generally not represented in the gaming medium in any respectable way.

I am a young married woman with a good husband and a son... I don't want him to grow up like you. I just want to be able to play Katamari or something with him when he gets older, and not worry about what dark path I might inadvertently be putting him on.

girl_in_background:

Jinxey:
"I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy."

This is the kind of crap that does infuriate me >.<

I'm 100% happy being who I am - why do I have to be what you want me to be?
That whole quote makes it sound more like you have daddy issues than you care about mankind (in this use, specifically men) than anything.

I ain't broke don't fix me :D.

Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "bitch", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.

A little pro-tip from a guy that goes out of his way to piss people off. A lot of an argument is tone and choice of words. To get someone to care what you think, you have to be very careful about what you say (and, before you start going off on one, this applies to EVERYONE), and from reading through what you've written, even without the joys of being able to hear you speak, your choice of words is entirely constructed to make your argument seem less worthwhile - combative, contrary and putting words into other people's mouths.

Honestly, if that's you (and it does seem that way), much like it is me, I say enjoy it. You'll never be taken seriously, but fully embraced, it lets you say whatever the fuck you want. Go on, try it, throw "cunt" randomly into a conversation with an authority figure - it's VERY liberating. When you've done this, come back and we'll cover step two - not getting caught :p

Also, never met my father, mother never remarried or even had a boyfriend, so that won't work on me :)

OT - I've read this before, and I still don't agree. Of course, I'm a grown man who has embraced his immature side with a vengeance, so it might just be that I don't see the bad side to wanting to gun shit down. Also, Dom kills his wife as a mercy killing, not out of a sense of mysoginist wankery.

Chipperz:

girl_in_background:

Jinxey:
"I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy."

This is the kind of crap that does infuriate me >.<

I'm 100% happy being who I am - why do I have to be what you want me to be?
That whole quote makes it sound more like you have daddy issues than you care about mankind (in this use, specifically men) than anything.

I ain't broke don't fix me :D.

Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "bitch", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.

A little pro-tip from a guy that goes out of his way to piss people off. A lot of an argument is tone and choice of words. To get someone to care what you think, you have to be very careful about what you say (and, before you start going off on one, this applies to EVERYONE), and from reading through what you've written, even without the joys of being able to hear you speak, your choice of words is entirely constructed to make your argument seem less worthwhile - combative, contrary and putting words into other people's mouths.

Honestly, if that's you (and it does seem that way), much like it is me, I say enjoy it. You'll never be taken seriously, but fully embraced, it lets you say whatever the fuck you want. Go on, try it, throw "cunt" randomly into a conversation with an authority figure - it's VERY liberating. When you've done this, come back and we'll cover step two - not getting caught :p

Also, never met my father, mother never remarried or even had a boyfriend, so that won't work on me :)

OT - I've read this before, and I still don't agree. Of course, I'm a grown man who has embraced his immature side with a vengeance, so it might just be that I don't see the bad side to wanting to gun shit down. Also, Dom kills his wife as a mercy killing, not out of a sense of mysoginist wankery.

Thanks for seeing the good in that. :P Honestly, after I hit the post button, I had one of those moments where it's like "Ah, crap, shouldnt've done that...". So, if I offended anyone with my post, please accept my apology. The first post, I didn't mean for it to come off sounding the way it did, the second post, well... I don't have any excuse for it, so again, I am sorry. I must say, though, thank you for not just ripping me a new one, and actually pointing out what I did wrong. I'll work on rectifying those errors in the future. :)

Jinxey:

Why, yes, actually, since I haven't seen my dad since I was three years old, and have since known two other men as my step-father, the first which only lasted four years, and the second which has lasted six but doesn't like teenagers, and teenage girls in particular, I would say that I have "daddy issues". And the fact that I have yet to meet any guy who genuinely cares what I think, or even respects me for who I am (as in, not calling me "bitch", "whore", or "c-nt"), well, I would agree with you that I think that it's mostly men who should change. I'm sorry if the crap that spews from my brain offends you. I'll get back to the kitchen now.

To reply in equal sarcasm,
I'm sorry I got offended at your obvious distrust/dislike for mankind being a man.
/sarcasm

1.) I listened to you
2.) Stated my emotions (I am infuriated)
3.) Stated I have an opposing opinion without using the words bitch, whore or cunt to describe you.

Isn't that what you said you wanted in the first post? Lets review!

I think society would benefit from having a little bit more feminism injected into it. Not hardcore feminism, but more being in tune with your feelings, being able and willing to talk to someone about your problems, and not being afraid to show care and understanding, especially if you're a guy

in tune with my feelings; check.
being able and willing to talk to someone about my problem; check. (my problem being you think I got a problem).
not afraid to show I care and understand; while I don't understand I haven't said you're stupid or anything, just stated my own opposing opinion that's a check in my book.
especially if you're a guy; check.

Peace, and I mean that-

I'm sorry. What I said was out of line. I'm sorry that I just spewed out the first crap that was on my brain, without taking the time to think about it first. Please accept my apology.

Furrama:
snip

oooohhhh kay ... I'm afraid of men too... mainly because every job I've lost was because of a guy, the one time I truly felt as though I may be murdered (not necessarily just killed like in a car accident) was due to a man, and it was my original thought that it would be men that are likely to beat me up (albeit history has actually proven this incorrect).

But that being said one thing I hate is the assumption that men should be considered dangerous without an examination of the individual. 'Men' should not change, because most men are decent, honourable and affable indivduals (keyword, INDIVIDUALS) ... just because there is a (TINY) section of the populace (atleast here in Australia) that may be prehistoric dinosaurs they do NOT represent men in general.

Say what you like, I am more regularly hurt by women than I am other men actually. Maybe women should change and cease their aggressive emotional sabotaging? Afterall I think most men in the western world would say with little hesitation that the biggest 'hurt' they have ever received was at the lips of a woman.

Dare I say it women probably cause 90% of male suicides (biggest cause of death in males under 45 in Australia). Emotional bullying by women hurt more than any physical torment I have ever received.

Furrama:
After reading this article and some of the comments, (most of which are obviously men), I have only to say this:

It's frightening to be a woman- it always has been, and you gamer guys aren't making it any easier for those of us who have to live with you and game alongside you.

Finally! A woman actually tells the truth about human nature when surrounded by guys! Stop the presses, the pigs are flying!

Woman are weaker physically, and now and historically we have had a lot more to loose in our encounters with the opposite sex.

True. But keep in mind which particular members of the opposite sex it's scary to be around.

Misunderstanding, being treated as objects, rape

Whine, whine, whine, whine. There are very few misunderstandings that are not deliberate in male-female relations. And given that a woman's most valuable asset (at first) is her appearance, physicality, and sexuality, being treated as an object is a high honor for them-when the right man is treating her that way. And given how large a percentage of romance novels written by women have their first encounter with the man be a rape or near-rape experience, there's probably something about the definition of 'rape' that we're forgetting. And I see Mr van der Sloot is getting scads of marriage proposals.

- these are still prevalent today, and most have taken modern forms in the more 'civilized' countries.

Because a man is usually firmly against rape until his wife does it to him. After that he tends to look the other way.

In videogames we see ourselves being made into objects to be oggled- we are hyper sexualized and one dimensional, and thats how the male fantasy wants it.

When you appear in video games at all. The original Super Mario Bros. would have been just as good without the princess subplot. The original Half Life had no female characters at all. Men did not make video games to fantasize about YOU, princess. It can be fairly argued that men made videogames to get away from women, or occasionally to live in a world where the idealized woman was more often than not a Yamato Nadeshiko. Or an Action Girl. The dreams of the unreflective prepubescent boy are either a girl like his mother or a girl that likes all the same stuff he does, after all.

(Male characters might be buff, but they aren't hyper sexualized- if they were they'd have giant erect penises, and cater to the desires of woman (or gay men), not to the male ego.)

In order to be hyper-sexualized from a female standpoint, the male lead only has to be the alpha male. Women, being hypergamous, are turned on by social dominance, and most video game heroes are already the stars of their own games.

And to think there are games where you can kill the hussy/prostitute/girl for no reason other than 'you can' to fulfill some male fantasy is something that scares me deeply.

What scares you deeply is that those beta males you either snubbed or paid no attention to will get revenge on you as soon as you lose your beauty. Or even worse, ignore you completely, as your intrinsic attractiveness has lost its value from overexposure.

I am afraid of men.

You fear what you never even attempt to understand.

Rape, in essence, is being treated as an object. Think about it... you don't care about her (or the general representation of women). They exist 'for you', to be feared, to be used for whatever pleasure you want at the time. When you treat a girl in a game as an object in order to act out your angst against women you are in essence raping all women, (or that woman if it is someone in particular).

It only makes sense to not care about women if it seems that all women are against you already. Which isn't true. Just those women in powerful and influential positions.

We are people. Human beings, with hopes and dreams. We are your mothers, sisters, and daughters. We as a gender are generally not represented in the gaming medium in any respectable way.

You are humanity's great, squishy middle. Great genius and great stupidity alike are foreign to you. You are submissive, empty vessels. You cannot see past the end of your own nose. You worship power. And you understand everything except the abstract. You are the most vulnerable to advertising, the cult of personality, and bloc-voting. You are more racist and more insular than men. Where you dominate, chaos reigns. Where your presence abides, so does boredom, and excessive civility, and bland adherence to trends. Where you congregate, reason and folly alike flee. You are often dictators, or slaves, yet almost never a fellow citizen with equal standing before the law. When you see a system, whether it be democracy, dictatorship, marriage, or divorce, your first instinct is to subvert it to serve your own ends. You are far too close to your own nature to notice it at work.

You have your greatest moments when attached to one man, yet you are the majority of those who initiate divorces.

You need the protection of civilization in order to be free, yet you reflexively tear down the 'boys clubs' that protect it.

I am a young married woman with a good husband and a son... I don't want him to grow up like you.

Burn all feminist literature immediately, and without remorse. Oppose all feminist measures, as coldly and cruelly as necessary. Shun all openly feminist women, for they are the subverters of boyhood. Feminism kills family relations; of that there is no reasonable doubt.

I just want to be able to play Katamari or something with him when he gets older, and not worry about what dark path I might inadvertently be putting him on.

Stop projecting the games you want to play onto your son. He'll most assuredly find a way to play them anyway, on his own. Go play throughHalf Life 2, the highest-rated game of all time, yourself, and then come back and convince me that video games are all about female exploitation. Or Zelda. Or Mario. Or even Halo. Play a real game that requires real concentration and a real time investment and serves real meaningful experiences and you might actually gain the insight to have a real conversation with your son down the line that seems to elude so many mothers these days. Self-denial is the first step toward understanding.

Then go get some real education on human nature. Quit listening to the vapid platitudes of the alpha guys and start actually listening to the nerds who built this society.

Speaking as a male, I am a little sick of all the macho power fantasies we have in games as protagonists. People like Marcus Fenix and Kratos are embarrassing to show to the outside and even Nathan Drake is really just a smug twit (seriously, when the protagonists of the DMC series beat you in the emotional spectrum, you have problems). For every Ezio, Cloud Strife, Fei Fong Wong, Ashley Riot, and Niko Bellic there are dozens of gravelly-voiced, scruffy-faced, steroid-injected twits that just ooze insecurity from the designers. There's a reason Hollywood grew out of using those kinds of people to do their action movies after the 90s.

And the female population gets stiffed even worse in this. Bayonetta for example is a pathetic attempt at 'sexiness' that misses the meaning of the word like a champ. You want good female characters go check out Aya Brea (Parasite Eve), Lenneth Valkyrie or her sister Silmeria (Valkyrie Profile), or the ENTIRE female cast of Odin Sphere. Oh, and of course Samus, even if her fame was due to an awesome fake-out by Nintendo

Epoetker:

Furrama:
After reading this article and some of the comments, (most of which are obviously men), I have only to say this:

It's frightening to be a woman- it always has been, and you gamer guys aren't making it any easier for those of us who have to live with you and game alongside you.

Finally! A woman actually tells the truth about human nature when surrounded by guys! Stop the presses, the pigs are flying!

Woman are weaker physically, and now and historically we have had a lot more to loose in our encounters with the opposite sex.

True. But keep in mind which particular members of the opposite sex it's scary to be around.

Misunderstanding, being treated as objects, rape

Whine, whine, whine, whine. There are very few misunderstandings that are not deliberate in male-female relations. And given that a woman's most valuable asset (at first) is her appearance, physicality, and sexuality, being treated as an object is a high honor for them-when the right man is treating her that way. And given how large a percentage of romance novels written by women have their first encounter with the man be a rape or near-rape experience, there's probably something about the definition of 'rape' that we're forgetting. And I see Mr van der Sloot is getting scads of marriage proposals.

- these are still prevalent today, and most have taken modern forms in the more 'civilized' countries.

Because a man is usually firmly against rape until his wife does it to him. After that he tends to look the other way.

In videogames we see ourselves being made into objects to be oggled- we are hyper sexualized and one dimensional, and thats how the male fantasy wants it.

When you appear in video games at all. The original Super Mario Bros. would have been just as good without the princess subplot. The original Half Life had no female characters at all. Men did not make video games to fantasize about YOU, princess. It can be fairly argued that men made videogames to get away from women, or occasionally to live in a world where the idealized woman was more often than not a Yamato Nadeshiko. Or an Action Girl. The dreams of the unreflective prepubescent boy are either a girl like his mother or a girl that likes all the same stuff he does, after all.

(Male characters might be buff, but they aren't hyper sexualized- if they were they'd have giant erect penises, and cater to the desires of woman (or gay men), not to the male ego.)

In order to be hyper-sexualized from a female standpoint, the male lead only has to be the alpha male. Women, being hypergamous, are turned on by social dominance, and most video game heroes are already the stars of their own games.

And to think there are games where you can kill the hussy/prostitute/girl for no reason other than 'you can' to fulfill some male fantasy is something that scares me deeply.

What scares you deeply is that those beta males you either snubbed or paid no attention to will get revenge on you as soon as you lose your beauty. Or even worse, ignore you completely, as your intrinsic attractiveness has lost its value from overexposure.

I am afraid of men.

You fear what you never even attempt to understand.

Rape, in essence, is being treated as an object. Think about it... you don't care about her (or the general representation of women). They exist 'for you', to be feared, to be used for whatever pleasure you want at the time. When you treat a girl in a game as an object in order to act out your angst against women you are in essence raping all women, (or that woman if it is someone in particular).

It only makes sense to not care about women if it seems that all women are against you already. Which isn't true. Just those women in powerful and influential positions.

We are people. Human beings, with hopes and dreams. We are your mothers, sisters, and daughters. We as a gender are generally not represented in the gaming medium in any respectable way.

You are humanity's great, squishy middle. Great genius and great stupidity alike are foreign to you. You are submissive, empty vessels. You cannot see past the end of your own nose. You worship power. And you understand everything except the abstract. You are the most vulnerable to advertising, the cult of personality, and bloc-voting. You are more racist and more insular than men. Where you dominate, chaos reigns. Where your presence abides, so does boredom, and excessive civility, and bland adherence to trends. Where you congregate, reason and folly alike flee. You are often dictators, or slaves, yet almost never a fellow citizen with equal standing before the law. When you see a system, whether it be democracy, dictatorship, marriage, or divorce, your first instinct is to subvert it to serve your own ends. You are far too close to your own nature to notice it at work.

You have your greatest moments when attached to one man, yet you are the majority of those who initiate divorces.

You need the protection of civilization in order to be free, yet you reflexively tear down the 'boys clubs' that protect it.

I am a young married woman with a good husband and a son... I don't want him to grow up like you.

Burn all feminist literature immediately, and without remorse. Oppose all feminist measures, as coldly and cruelly as necessary. Shun all openly feminist women, for they are the subverters of boyhood. Feminism kills family relations; of that there is no reasonable doubt.

I just want to be able to play Katamari or something with him when he gets older, and not worry about what dark path I might inadvertently be putting him on.

Stop projecting the games you want to play onto your son. He'll most assuredly find a way to play them anyway, on his own. Go play throughHalf Life 2, the highest-rated game of all time, yourself, and then come back and convince me that video games are all about female exploitation. Or Zelda. Or Mario. Or even Halo. Play a real game that requires real concentration and a real time investment and serves real meaningful experiences and you might actually gain the insight to have a real conversation with your son down the line that seems to elude so many mothers these days. Self-denial is the first step toward understanding.

Then go get some real education on human nature. Quit listening to the vapid platitudes of the alpha guys and start actually listening to the nerds who built this society.

I hate to repost all of that, but I don't feel like trimming it.

I believe you misunderstand me, or are perhaps projecting something on what I said that I did not intend. Perhaps you are trolling, I don't know. I didn't mean to incite such anger, only offer up my fears, weaknesses, to the conversation.

All I mean is, it is a horrible feeling to be, at the end of it all, powerless- at the mercy and good graces of menfolk. Men can be good or bad, just as women can, but all is not equal at the end of the day.

It is also very terrifying to know that there is a corner of an industry, (not all of it), that caters to men wishing to act out acts of violence towards -my- kind. If it was a white man beating up on a black man we would not be having this discussion- it would be considered racist, a 'pseudo' hate crime. Indeed, this happened with a game recently that took place in Africa, (though It appears this was not the intent, it did raise some hackles). But women don't seem to get the same consideration.

On a side note, it appears you are one for whom the article was intended. Women are not the enemies of men, the evil that you have portrayed. Also, I'm just a girl, not a feminist... well, not a raging one anyway. Most woman are a little, it would be silly not to root for your team a bit.

As for my son, he will do what he wants when he leaves. I just hope he respects woman enough not to see them as mere objects, no matter what he does. And that he'll stop by and play a round of something with his parents once in a while.

This made it into a best of?

really?

PaulH:

Say what you like, I am more regularly hurt by women than I am other men actually. Maybe women should change and cease their aggressive emotional sabotaging? Afterall I think most men in the western world would say with little hesitation that the biggest 'hurt' they have ever received was at the lips of a woman.

Dare I say it women probably cause 90% of male suicides (biggest cause of death in males under 45 in Australia). Emotional bullying by women hurt more than any physical torment I have ever received.

So, you're afraid that women are going to hurt your feelings.

That's a valid fear. It doesn't mean that there IS an evil conspiracy of women out there actively scheming to hurt your feelings, of course, but fearing hurt is a legitimate thing to be afraid of.

However, most women in the western world are afraid that they are going to be raped and murdered. Again, this doesn't mean there actually ARE roving rape gangs in the streets of Australia, but this is what they fear. Particularly since both rape and murder happen quite a lot, and when they do happen, public reaction is usually to claim that it was all the victim's fault for not being on guard enough.

What they fear is kind of more dangerous than what you fear, and this can tend to make them quite angry when the fears are compared.

"Men" do not need to change in order to stop the rapes and murders, because MOST men are not rapists and murderers. "Women" do not need to change their "aggressive emotional sabotaging" because most women are not actually out to get you. For that matter, men can be raped, men can be murdered, and men can be emotionally abusive. Men and women are really not so different most of the time.

PEOPLE need to change, to recognise when SOME PEOPLE do bad things, attempt to prevent them from doing so, and support people who have had bad things happen to them. All of this "I NEED A SPECIAL MAN PLACE TO BE MANLY IN" (or for that matter, a special woman place to be womanly) is not helping.

FallenJellyDoughnut:
I never, ever felt the need to beat a woman to death in a videogame, but maybe I'm just strange like that

Yep, It's really weird how you don't want to give a fresh dose of murder to someone. People like you make me sick.

Epoetker:

Whine, whine, whine, whine. There are very few misunderstandings that are not deliberate in male-female relations. And given that a woman's most valuable asset (at first) is her appearance, physicality, and sexuality, being treated as an object is a high honor for them-when the right man is treating her that way.

Are you seriously, in public, going to sit here and state that the most important thing about women is what they look like? Seriously?

Do you think the same thing is true for men? If not, why not?

And given how large a percentage of romance novels written by women have their first encounter with the man be a rape or near-rape experience, there's probably something about the definition of 'rape' that we're forgetting.

Although if you've actually studied the field, you should be aware that the percentage of rape in romance novels has drastically declined over time. It was quite high when romance novels were a new genre. Why? SHAME. It was absolutely unimaginable that a "good" girl would seek out sex, so having the heroine be constantly ravished (by, of course, highly desirable men) was necessary in order to maintain her image as a heroine. That makes it all "not her fault" - she can still be good and noble and pure and everything that the reader wanted to identify with.

The closer you get to modern times the more general distaste you find among romance readers for the rapist hero. Modern romance novels find that idea squicky. Characters are pushed together in forced marriages, but the sex in general now tends to wait until both partners consent.

The rape fantasy lingers most in the young and inexperienced, who are too flustered to imagine actually approaching someone they're interested in, and enjoy giggling over the idea of being "swept away" by a handsome stranger who will do everything for them so they can just lie back and enjoy it without having to figure out how it's all supposed to work.

There are, of course, some people both male and female with 'rape fetishes', and there's nothing wrong with that - fantasy rape is not at all the same as the real thing.

However, when "rape romance" is ubiquitous, it stems from societal pressure.

What scares you deeply is that those beta males you either snubbed or paid no attention to will get revenge on you as soon as you lose your beauty.

... Why do you assume that any given woman both has beauty and snubs so-called beta males?

Are you seriously, in public, going to sit here and state that the most important thing about women is what they look like? Seriously?

Srsly. Female beauty is objective, measurable, quantifiable, and democratically agreed upon by men, women, and babies. How much has the Hollywood's starlet's 'beauty face' changed over the years? As it turns out, not a whole lot...

It's perhaps quite ironic that beauty is, in fact, a cross-section of the average female face at the prime of her life, but things is what they is. Women are XX, an average of the continuum of traits of both parents. Men are XY, an extreme selection of certain more particular traits from the mother and the father. You are more likely to see all of yourself in a daughter and more than you ever expected about a part of yourself (or none at all) in a son. Women are more presentable but less unique, by nature.

Do you think the same thing is true for men? If not, why not?

Because men are interested in beauty and women are interested in small-s social security.

And given how large a percentage of romance novels written by women have their first encounter with the man be a rape or near-rape experience, there's probably something about the definition of 'rape' that we're forgetting.

Although if you've actually studied the field, you should be aware that the percentage of rape in romance novels has drastically declined over time.

From about %100 to just around %50-%60?

It was quite high when romance novels were a new genre. Why? SHAME. It was absolutely unimaginable that a "good" girl would seek out sex, so having the heroine be constantly ravished (by, of course, highly desirable men) was necessary in order to maintain her image as a heroine. That makes it all "not her fault" - she can still be good and noble and pure and everything that the reader wanted to identify with.

You're not exactly defeating my point here:P

The closer you get to modern times the more general distaste you find among romance readers for the rapist hero.

If I had to guess, it's because women have now taken over much of network television, and can put their bad boy heroes on Lifetime, or soap operas, or HBO.

In other words, romance novels have become less about rape because fewer women are reading, and the ones left over are the older, tireder, or more intellectual women who still have an imagination. But the larger mass of females has moved toward visual media to get their kicks. They do seem to love the face close-ups. (Younger girls grow up on the Disney channel.)

Modern romance novels find that idea squicky. Characters are pushed together in forced marriages, but the sex in general now tends to wait until both partners consent.

In other words, modern romance novels go for the kinda-sorta-almost-raped-but-not-really-because-I-liked-it view.

The rape fantasy lingers most in the young and inexperienced,

I.E., the super-hot ones that the majority of the alpha males are going to go after, 'societal pressure' be damned...

who are too flustered to imagine actually approaching someone they're interested in, and enjoy giggling over the idea of being "swept away" by a handsome stranger who will do everything for them so they can just lie back and enjoy it without having to figure out how it's all supposed to work.

Actually, sex can, in fact, work that way. Marriage can't, but who's supporting marriage nowadays?

There are, of course, some people both male and female with 'rape fetishes', and there's nothing wrong with that - fantasy rape is not at all the same as the real thing.

Fewer forms to fill out? I'm beginning to think the ancient world had a point when they simply refused to leave young women and men together alone and assumed the deed had been done-it took the multivariate and fungible issue of 'consent' and did away with it entirely.

However, when "rape romance" is ubiquitous, it stems from societal pressure.

It stems from female nature, not societal pressure. I'll give you a hint: MOST MEN DON'T READ OR PAY FOR ROMANCE NOVELS!

... Why do you assume that any given woman both has beauty and snubs so-called beta males?

True. There are a lot of harpies, harridans, and general exceptions in the world. But if men did not defer to your standard fairly beautiful women, they would lose their power even more quickly, since deference to beautiful, innocent or vulnerable women is one of the biggest mental reasons why men support feminist legislation. Get rid of affirmative action, VAWA, and sexual harrassment laws, and these women would be the first to be fired, snubbed, violence-d, and abandoned. Unless they had really good qualifications. But very few people actually prefer working for or with a female boss.

Obviously, I am speaking of the statistically significant greater society, of which all y'all ladies might not be necessarily representative. But just because you don't fully fit the stereotype because you were luckily born or actually listened to your grandmother or married a man you don't intend to divorce at the first sign of trouble or just missed all the required feminist indoctrination classes doesn't mean the points are any less true.

hanako:

PaulH:

Say what you like, I am more regularly hurt by women than I am other men actually. Maybe women should change and cease their aggressive emotional sabotaging? Afterall I think most men in the western world would say with little hesitation that the biggest 'hurt' they have ever received was at the lips of a woman.

Dare I say it women probably cause 90% of male suicides (biggest cause of death in males under 45 in Australia). Emotional bullying by women hurt more than any physical torment I have ever received.

So, you're afraid that women are going to hurt your feelings.

That's a valid fear. It doesn't mean that there IS an evil conspiracy of women out there actively scheming to hurt your feelings, of course, but fearing hurt is a legitimate thing to be afraid of.

However, most women in the western world are afraid that they are going to be raped and murdered. Again, this doesn't mean there actually ARE roving rape gangs in the streets of Australia, but this is what they fear. Particularly since both rape and murder happen quite a lot, and when they do happen, public reaction is usually to claim that it was all the victim's fault for not being on guard enough.

What they fear is kind of more dangerous than what you fear, and this can tend to make them quite angry when the fears are compared.

"Men" do not need to change in order to stop the rapes and murders, because MOST men are not rapists and murderers. "Women" do not need to change their "aggressive emotional sabotaging" because most women are not actually out to get you. For that matter, men can be raped, men can be murdered, and men can be emotionally abusive. Men and women are really not so different most of the time.

PEOPLE need to change, to recognise when SOME PEOPLE do bad things, attempt to prevent them from doing so, and support people who have had bad things happen to them. All of this "I NEED A SPECIAL MAN PLACE TO BE MANLY IN" (or for that matter, a special woman place to be womanly) is not helping.

Precisely. Both sexes use their sex as weapons to a degree. The fallacy of 'there's no female bullies' has been disproven. That being said it really doesn't help when people talk abut bullying and they automatically assume 'oh it's a bunch of guys in primary school/high school 'binning' weaker guys'. I would think this is why the computer entertainment industry has developed the way it has.

This report completely skirted the fact that many that go through school are hurt by both sexes. In an industry dominated by males, then of course you are going to have that sub-concious thought of the female sex as largely beyond the concept of reason. So you do have this monolithic ideal that 'men will be men ... they will fight eachother' whilst games do not tend to focus on the 'well let's take the psychological avenue of "attack" ... a war game that assaults the psychology of the protagonist rather than the body.'

Psychological warfare is an established (albeit debateable ethically) avenue of tactical recourse ... attacking the cohesion of an enemy nation through the threat of fear and creating insecurities (for an enemy trying to discover who to trust). Of course this is completely ignored in games.

It's an 'us vs. them' in war games.

Beyond super-realistic RTS combat games (such as the 'Close Combat' game series which probably has the best psychological and morale systems in a war game ever) the whole aspect of psychology and morale is completely ignored ... a unit under your command will sacrifice itself without second thought in the face of overwhelming enemy fire. Starcraft for example, has a female character whose marked notion of 'control' is the *very* relateable 'My Zerg hordes outnumber all you mothers, therefore I'll rush you suckers'. She doesn't employ psychology beyond the psychology of violence and fear through pure physical domination and physical feat of arms.

There are reasons for this. Because men often find themselves psychologically shaken by less moral female individuals in society. A male bully will utilise the psychology of fear, but that fear is directly relateable to the threat of harm. There are few exceptions to this ... for example the male bully who uses bullying as a means of social continuity of status (the Good old Draco Malfoys of the world). But this is more evident (and propagated) in female members of society through most Western medias. Female members of society will utilise entrapment, status, and wealth. And these can be exceptional barriers to male understanding of the female psychology.

This article sorta assumes there is no reason beyond this beside 'male insecurities' in the modern world, but the fact of the matter is that there is no 'effect' without 'cause'. Why do Men feel as though the 'female' is a dangerous thing?

It has nothing to do with genetics but social norms and conformities. Men exist in a world where even in the family unit their sisters are called 'Princess' and they themselves are labelled 'sonny' or similiar ... connoting an automatic responsibility to uphold what they see in their fathers, whilst removing their sisters from those very same social entrapments. The problem (as always) begins in the indoctrination of youth.

Even 'rape' is no longer a 'male' problem in modern society. It seems as though there is a greater number of false rape allegations then there are real instances of rape. Which hurts both true victims of rape, but also punishes men who have done no wrong and victiizes them due to psychotic women. This is a recorded phenomenon that was first brought to light by an internal review by the USAF back in the 80's due to heightened numbers of 'rape' cases being prosecuted in military courts. They discovered that 60% of cases were completely fictional ... that didn't stop the majority of the defendants in these cases being sent to prison or otherwise having their lives shattered despite being found innocent later on.

As you said, it's 'people' that need to change, not a specific sex. This article completely skirted the 'cause' of why alot of men in the modern world are somewhat shaken by the presence of the female perspective. There are real reasons for these insecurities ,and if they were to be addressed unbiasly then I think that the image of women in videogames woulkd drastically improve.

Epoetker:

Do you think the same thing is true for men? If not, why not?

Because men are interested in beauty and women are interested in small-s social security.

... wait, are you only talking about what's most important in terms of heterosexual people meeting each other with the intent of forming relationships? That puts a slightly different spin on what you're saying. Because I'm baffled at the idea that you would evaluate an artist or mechanic or manager solely on her appearance.

To quote someone else's blog:

"Honestly, do any of these people ever lift their heads up past their own genitals to see the world around them? Do they sit through every movie thinking nothing but "I'd do her. Would do her. Wouldn't do her. Gotta fart. Ah, just farted. Might do her. Would TOTALLY do her AND her sister. Gonna think about that for a while. Yeah, I'd back-door the sister while the first one sat on my face. That'd be good. Then they could buy me a hamburger and tell me how cool my Transformers fan-art is. Yeah, gonna think about that some more. Wait, where am I? Oh, the lights are on and everyone's leaving? Guess the movie's over. Hey, look at that girl over there, walking out. Yeah, I guess I'd do her if there wasn't anything good on TV.""

And given how large a percentage of romance novels written by women have their first encounter with the man be a rape or near-rape experience, there's probably something about the definition of 'rape' that we're forgetting.

Although if you've actually studied the field, you should be aware that the percentage of rape in romance novels has drastically declined over time.

From about %100 to just around %50-%60?

No - from about 100% to under 5%, thus averaging out at around 50-60% overall.

It was quite high when romance novels were a new genre. Why? SHAME. It was absolutely unimaginable that a "good" girl would seek out sex, so having the heroine be constantly ravished (by, of course, highly desirable men) was necessary in order to maintain her image as a heroine. That makes it all "not her fault" - she can still be good and noble and pure and everything that the reader wanted to identify with.

You're not exactly defeating my point here:P

Which point? I'm agreeing with you that the "rapist hero" was a very common thing in early romance novels. This is a provable fact, it would be silly for me to deny it. :)

However, some people will try to use this to argue utter nonsense about biological destiny and how menz want to raep and wimminz wants to be raped and therefore we should just let them go at it... when this is very much not the case.

Most people want sex. They also want to be socially acceptable. Few people, no matter how desperately they want to get laid, will strip naked in public and yell "COME AND GET IT!" They attempt to pick up dates in socially acceptable manners and hide the aspects of their activities which they consider shameful.

In other words, romance novels have become less about rape because fewer women are reading, and the ones left over are the older, tireder, or more intellectual women who still have an imagination. But the larger mass of females has moved toward visual media to get their kicks.

Not really. See Twilight, for example. Now, I must admit up front that I have not read it, I've only read a lot of reviews and essays discussing it. But it's VERY popular, there are hordes of female readers, and plenty of them are young.

The 'hero' is still creepy as hell and stalks the pure innocent heroine. But what he does not do is rape her. Social standards have changed and fantasies have changed with them - instead, as I understand it, she spends a few books begging him to sleep with her while he refuses because he doesn't want to besmirch her chastity!

(See also - fanfiction.)

Modern romance novels find that idea squicky. Characters are pushed together in forced marriages, but the sex in general now tends to wait until both partners consent.

In other words, modern romance novels go for the kinda-sorta-almost-raped-but-not-really-because-I-liked-it view.

If fully-consensual sex six months after getting married when you've finally come to love and trust each other counts as "almost raped" in your worldview, it'll be difficult to have anything resembling a sensible discussion here. :)

Romance novels (and fanfic) like to use weird situations to shove characters together because that allows for conflict and that builds the drama. A story about two people who like each other, get married, have sex, and live happily ever after is kinda dull. A man forced to marry his enemy's daughter in order to save his family castle and attempt to woo her while fending off invading vikings or whatever - that's a story!

There are, of course, some people both male and female with 'rape fetishes', and there's nothing wrong with that - fantasy rape is not at all the same as the real thing.

Fewer forms to fill out?

*eyeroll*

Most people who play fantasy games involving swords and monster fighting wouldn't particularly want to be in a real life-or-death battle, either. Despite the handwringing of occasional censorship elements, even small children understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

Of course, not all people have managed to reach the mental level of the average small child. :)

But if men did not defer to your standard fairly beautiful women, they would lose their power even more quickly, since deference to beautiful, innocent or vulnerable women is one of the biggest mental reasons why men support feminist legislation.

No, men who are of good alignment support feminist legislation because they support equality and human rights. Men who are not of good alignment laugh and point and squawk about how ugly all the feminists are, and how clearly they'll never be able to get a man. Somehow missing the point that diehard feminists don't give a shit if Joe Random thinks they're ugly and doesn't want to screw them.

PaulH:

Even 'rape' is no longer a 'male' problem in modern society. It seems as though there is a greater number of false rape allegations then there are real instances of rape. Which hurts both true victims of rape, but also punishes men who have done no wrong and victiizes them due to psychotic women. This is a recorded phenomenon that was first brought to light by an internal review by the USAF back in the 80's due to heightened numbers of 'rape' cases being prosecuted in military courts. They discovered that 60% of cases were completely fictional ... that didn't stop the majority of the defendants in these cases being sent to prison or otherwise having their lives shattered despite being found innocent later on.

I have to address this for memetic reasons. Even in that particular report, the number was a third, not 60%. Most large-scale research puts the number at about 10-20%, although individual studies have found false rates going anywhere from 5% to 45%. However, people tend to repeat things and shade them in the direction of their own personal beliefs, causing the numbers to become increasingly more inflated, which is where you get some people claiming 1% and some people claiming 80% without a scrap of truth behind either.

False rape claims happen, and yes, they can damage people's lives (although it's highly unlikely for lives to be *destroyed* unless there's not only a false claim but a terrible trial and an incorrect verdict. The Duke boys' lives certainly weren't ruined, although they were VERY inconvenienced for a while there.)

Going to trial badly damages the lives of both the plaintiff and the defendant, regardless of whether there is guilt or innocence. The whole modern 'justice' system is screwed up and I don't know how to fix it. There's a lot more wrong than just rape trials - there are false claims of burglary and assault, there are people locked up for murder without a scrap of real physical evidence, there are people who lose their jobs because they were accused of a crime and therefore locked up to *await* trial... There's a whole lot of problems out there. The system isn't perfect and I have no idea how to make it so.

Now that I look it up, I discover that one of the guys from the Duke case has been working with the Innocence Project to help other people behind bars. Good on him.

(Also again, remember, not all rapists are men and not all rape victims are women.)

hanako:

PaulH:

Even 'rape' is no longer a 'male' problem in modern society. It seems as though there is a greater number of false rape allegations then there are real instances of rape. Which hurts both true victims of rape, but also punishes men who have done no wrong and victiizes them due to psychotic women. This is a recorded phenomenon that was first brought to light by an internal review by the USAF back in the 80's due to heightened numbers of 'rape' cases being prosecuted in military courts. They discovered that 60% of cases were completely fictional ... that didn't stop the majority of the defendants in these cases being sent to prison or otherwise having their lives shattered despite being found innocent later on.

I have to address this for memetic reasons. Even in that particular report, the number was a third, not 60%. Most large-scale research puts the number at about 10-20%, although individual studies have found false rates going anywhere from 5% to 45%. However, people tend to repeat things and shade them in the direction of their own personal beliefs, causing the numbers to become increasingly more inflated, which is where you get some people claiming 1% and some people claiming 80% without a scrap of truth behind either.

False rape claims happen, and yes, they can damage people's lives (although it's highly unlikely for lives to be *destroyed* unless there's not only a false claim but a terrible trial and an incorrect verdict. The Duke boys' lives certainly weren't ruined, although they were VERY inconvenienced for a while there.)

My bad ... the figure is moreso (or should say *atleast*) 50%. 25% of the women admitted to the USAF internal review that their allegations were false when asked to take a lie detector test. A further 15% of the original number of case accusers afterwards admitted they falsified the charges after an independant review of the allegations within the 9 year period.

In an associated university study led by Kanin investigating rape cases, a total of 41% recanted on their statements saying that it wasn't rape, or we're disproven in a court of law. Assuming that that 41% includes allegations either being disproved or their victims 'recanting' on their allegations ... then we can also assume that there are alleged victims of whom still hold nto the story they were raped despite it being a fictional occurence.

And yes, I am doing a disservice to males as victims of rape as well, of which are rarely reported until there is significant damage to which cannot be covered up by the victim for fear of public reactions to a male being violated.

But I hardly think labelling the 'victims' themselves who recant their allegations as 'without a scrap of truth' that the number of actual rape cases and cases of falsified rape are more or less equal. If only because there would have been 'victims' of rape that would not have been discovered by both studies.

And false rape allegations do destroy lives. For the same reason false reports of child abuse by teachers destroy teacher's lives. Despite being found innocent they will live in fear .. their name has been plastered over the news, but does the news turn around and spend the same amount of time vindicating the teacher's innocence when found so in a court of law? No.

They get a blurb on page 10 of some random newspaper.

Not only this but you have the aspect of 'being found innocent in a court is not the same as BEING innocent' approach people take. Like a businessman accused of orchestrating fraud is universally distrusted in economic circles despite having been found innocent of such charges.

As I said, even if these are not definitive statistics that can be applied to Western nations beyond the US, courts tend to favour empathizing with the alleged victim of rape ... not empathize with the notion that they could very well be condemning an innocent person. This is not how the law should operate.

Point is false allegations of rape don't just hurt those falsly accused, they hurt victims of true rape. As people are becoming increasingly jaded towards rape victims because new rape reform laws and other cases of false allegations have misdirected our pity far too often to only victims who are blatantly victims beyond question, whereas true victims of rape who have far harder cases to prove we might treat with disdain (the 'oh, another one' response that accompanies familiarity).

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