Critical Miss: Dragon Age: Destiny

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z3rostr1fe:
Gahh!!! Spoiler!!! :<

Now I know that Leilana will try and hinder me from gaining those things! And I need those ashes! Now I regret trying to finish up America Orzammar first!

I didn't know America had a caste system and a corrupt political system full of bribing and assassinations.

Oooh...I might have to do that. A DA:O/awakenings playthrough that kills off a ton of people, just to watch them retconned into existence again. I know Nathaniel at least stays dead. This could be fun...

lucky_sharm:

z3rostr1fe:
Gahh!!! Spoiler!!! :<

Now I know that Leilana will try and hinder me from gaining those things! And I need those ashes! Now I regret trying to finish up America Orzammar first!

I didn't know America had a caste system and a corrupt political system full of bribing and assassinations.

Well... I was actually referring to the Voice Actors for Dwarves(Surface people are more... English...). But now you have mentioned it... Yea! That too! :D

Booze Zombie:

Gildan Bladeborn:
Speaking from experience, you'll actually see none at all - as someone else who played Origins (and the Awakening expansion) "the good way", I can attest that none of my decisions were ever contradicted by events in the sequel.

Yeah, I figured you'd only really run into retcon issues if you played the game like your name was Lobo. Sorry, Bioware, drowning kittens didn't interest me.

Hey, it's her own fault for being a moron.

"But if the ashes exist, people will pilgrimage to it like all the time. Which means I'd have to waste time trying to slay that fucking dragon rather than getting on with, I dunno, saving the world? Won't this also make the chantry the next Tevinter Imperium and have the ability to control the world, only allowing the people they favour access to the ashes? What if an absolute evil bastard steals it and uses it to live forever, lording over the land?"

"Don't care lol. If you do this you'll have to kill me."

"FINE JEEZ."

This conversation happened with both Wynne AND Leliana. It's not "Lobo" style, it's morally gray. As in, "gray warden", as in what the whole premise of the story was (Duncan killing Jory and nobody batting an eyelash, anyone?).

As far as drowning kittens is concerned, I can't say I did much of that either. Zevran tried to backstab me, so I killed him (there was no option not to). So there we have at least two (not sure about Wynne) major events that have been completely poofed over, never to be heard about again. What happens if your DA1 character DOES make an appearance in DA3 or any DLC?

"Oh hey Leliana, you're looking great considering I crushed you to death with a hammer for being a stupid bitch."

"How's it shaking, Zevran? Man, the last time I saw you... hey, hang on, didn't Morrigan burn you to death for being a backstabbing asshole? Oooh, are those new tattoos, by the way?"

z3rostr1fe:
Gahh!!! Spoiler!!! :<

Now I know that Leilana will try and hinder me from gaining those things! And I need those ashes! Now I regret trying to finish up America Orzammar first!

Trick is, don't take her with you when you get the Ashes. Leave her at camp, then when you come back she'll eventually confront you. Lie to the stupid cow and she'll believe you.

Status quo regained.

z3rostr1fe:

lucky_sharm:

z3rostr1fe:
Gahh!!! Spoiler!!! :<

Now I know that Leilana will try and hinder me from gaining those things! And I need those ashes! Now I regret trying to finish up America Orzammar first!

I didn't know America had a caste system and a corrupt political system full of bribing and assassinations.

Well... I was actually referring to the Voice Actors for Dwarves(Surface people are more... English...). But now you have mentioned it... Yea! That too! :D

Totally QFT!
(as far as the bribing and tiered value of human life go!)

anyway, interesting comic, I am still wondering whether DA2 is even going to be worth buying...

At first I was like what is this, then I finally remembered the ashes and that you might have to kill characters there (like Wynne and apparently Leliana, but seriously who the fuck would do that)

This does remind me of one my play-through's in DA origins where I never even picked up Leliana or Sten, killed Zevran, managed to totally piss off Wynne and have her leave, same deal with Alistair while sparing Logain, and for total "screw-up" factor having Morrigan leave as well.

The joys of killing the Arch-Demon with myself (a gimped mage because I was fucking stupid in picking skills) Logain and Oghren because that was pretty much what I was down to at that point. (I even forgot to the get the dog, not on purpose though)

DA 2, while having a few very nice improvements in companions missed the all-mighty camp area + the fact you can only lose Isabela instead of possibly losing/never receiving almost all of your companions.

In fact after playing through DA:Kirkwall Edition, I was rather convinced the game was only a mini-game (still actually took me longer to play through with Hard than DA:O ever did on Nightmare) to give you the setup for the Templars vs Mages war.

Desert Tiger:

Trick is, don't take her with you when you get the Ashes. Leave her at camp, then when you come back she'll eventually confront you. Lie to the stupid cow and she'll believe you.

Status quo regained.

But... I need a healer! :(
I guess i'll be off packing up some pots then instead...

z3rostr1fe:

Desert Tiger:

Trick is, don't take her with you when you get the Ashes. Leave her at camp, then when you come back she'll eventually confront you. Lie to the stupid cow and she'll believe you.

Status quo regained.

But... I need a healer! :(
I guess i'll be off packing up some pots then instead...

What, Leliana is your healer? O_o

Do you mean Wynne?

Hmm.. I didn't run into anything like this. But then, I didn't kill Leliana or Zevran.... only Wynne.

I did find the save transfer option a little odd. They supposedly summarize the major choices you made before you start the game... but there doesn't seem to be any consequence to killing Connor... boning Morrigan... or some other options that I can't remember.

It's almost like they forgot what choices in DA1 would actually affect some of the outcomes in DA2..

Desert Tiger:

z3rostr1fe:

Desert Tiger:

Trick is, don't take her with you when you get the Ashes. Leave her at camp, then when you come back she'll eventually confront you. Lie to the stupid cow and she'll believe you.

Status quo regained.

But... I need a healer! :(
I guess i'll be off packing up some pots then instead...

What, Leliana is your healer? O_o

Do you mean Wynne?

...I stand corrected... Obviously, I needed to play DA:O again after I got bored in Orzammar last year...

Woodsey:

Zevran appearing is a bug, Leliana isn't as far as I'm aware, as there's a post on the BioWare forums where David Gaider announces that they decide when someone is dead and when they reuse them (and it was in response to Leliana showing up).

I'd be interested in seeing that thread, do you know its title?. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just basing my comments off of threads regarding the upcoming patch and how much it focuses on fixing the DA:O save import function. A lot of people here keep mentioning this writer (Gaider?) who just decided to bring Lelianna back regardless of the choices made in the last game. I can only hope this writer is given less free reign in the future, maybe give him some time off to focus on his OTP fanfic. Bioware is better than that.

z3rostr1fe:
Gahh!!! Spoiler!!! :<

Now I know that Leilana will try and hinder me from gaining those things! And I need those ashes! Now I regret trying to finish up America Orzammar first!

Relax...

Valdus:
Leilana? Alive? Pfft, don't be silly. Next you'll be telling me that Ander's survives even if you kill him in Awakening.

Welcome to the escapist. We're goin to have issues RE: Your Avatar.

Just kidding.

Pity they didn't frame the narrative in a similar way first time round. Have some guy (I vote Zevran) telling the story. Then in DA 3 we could just have a scene where Zevran and Varric argue.

Z: That's not what hapeened.
V:Yeah it is.
Z: No, it isn't. You have no idea what you're talking about.
V: fuck you.

We could have scenes where the Seeker resists the urge to just stab them in the dick.

Zhukov:
What kind of sick bastard kills Leliana anyway?

That's like kicking a French kitten.

It's the French part that did it for most people.

Desert Tiger:

z3rostr1fe:

Desert Tiger:

Trick is, don't take her with you when you get the Ashes. Leave her at camp, then when you come back she'll eventually confront you. Lie to the stupid cow and she'll believe you.

Status quo regained.

But... I need a healer! :(
I guess i'll be off packing up some pots then instead...

What, Leliana is your healer? O_o

Do you mean Wynne?

If it makes you feel any better, she doesn't like it and you'll have to kill her if you take her too! ^_^

Forktongue:

Woodsey:

Zevran appearing is a bug, Leliana isn't as far as I'm aware, as there's a post on the BioWare forums where David Gaider announces that they decide when someone is dead and when they reuse them (and it was in response to Leliana showing up).

I'd be interested in seeing that thread, do you know its title?. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just basing my comments off of threads regarding the upcoming patch and how much it focuses on fixing the DA:O save import function. A lot of people here keep mentioning this writer (Gaider?) who just decided to bring Lelianna back regardless of the choices made in the last game. I can only hope this writer is given less free reign in the future, maybe give him some time off to focus on his OTP fanfic. Bioware is better than that.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.274827-David-Gaider-says-Bioware-decides-what-dead-means-in-Dragon-Age-2?page=1

The only reasoning he can come up with is that if she was killed then she's now alive, and that it was totally intentional, they just haven't said how yet... Only that doesn't add up, since she appears for 30 seconds at the end with no mention of her possible death. Considering its such a massive problem, you'd think they'd at least mention it in people's games, if not offer the reason for how it came about yet.

I mean come on, if you killed Carth in KotOR then they just swapped him out for someone else in KotOR 2. There's no point giving people choices if you're going to fold on them completely so that you can go back on something.

And that doesn't fix my problem anyway: my Warden died, there's no mystery about his "disappearance" because he's where they buried him (unless they cremated him, can't remember now). And she should know anyway, she was banging him.

Woodsey:

Forktongue:

Woodsey:

Zevran appearing is a bug, Leliana isn't as far as I'm aware, as there's a post on the BioWare forums where David Gaider announces that they decide when someone is dead and when they reuse them (and it was in response to Leliana showing up).

I'd be interested in seeing that thread, do you know its title?. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just basing my comments off of threads regarding the upcoming patch and how much it focuses on fixing the DA:O save import function. A lot of people here keep mentioning this writer (Gaider?) who just decided to bring Lelianna back regardless of the choices made in the last game. I can only hope this writer is given less free reign in the future, maybe give him some time off to focus on his OTP fanfic. Bioware is better than that.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.274827-David-Gaider-says-Bioware-decides-what-dead-means-in-Dragon-Age-2?page=1

The only reasoning he can come up with is that if she was killed then she's now alive, and that it was totally intentional, they just haven't said how yet... Only that doesn't add up, since she appears for 30 seconds at the end with no mention of her possible death. Considering its such a massive problem, you'd think they'd at least mention it in people's games, if not offer the reason for how it came about yet.

I mean come on, if you killed Carth in KotOR then they just swapped him out for someone else in KotOR 2. There's no point giving people choices if you're going to fold on them completely so that you can go back on something.

And that doesn't fix my problem anyway: my Warden died, there's no mystery about his "disappearance" because he's where they buried him (unless they cremated him, can't remember now). And she should know anyway, she was banging him.

I do like how when I made that thread most of the responses accused me of being a dragon age hater and being obsessed over minor plot holes, while as soon as a comic is made about it everyone suddenly agrees.

Strange that.

secretsantaone:

Woodsey:

Forktongue:

I'd be interested in seeing that thread, do you know its title?. Not that I don't believe you, I'm just basing my comments off of threads regarding the upcoming patch and how much it focuses on fixing the DA:O save import function. A lot of people here keep mentioning this writer (Gaider?) who just decided to bring Lelianna back regardless of the choices made in the last game. I can only hope this writer is given less free reign in the future, maybe give him some time off to focus on his OTP fanfic. Bioware is better than that.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.274827-David-Gaider-says-Bioware-decides-what-dead-means-in-Dragon-Age-2?page=1

The only reasoning he can come up with is that if she was killed then she's now alive, and that it was totally intentional, they just haven't said how yet... Only that doesn't add up, since she appears for 30 seconds at the end with no mention of her possible death. Considering its such a massive problem, you'd think they'd at least mention it in people's games, if not offer the reason for how it came about yet.

I mean come on, if you killed Carth in KotOR then they just swapped him out for someone else in KotOR 2. There's no point giving people choices if you're going to fold on them completely so that you can go back on something.

And that doesn't fix my problem anyway: my Warden died, there's no mystery about his "disappearance" because he's where they buried him (unless they cremated him, can't remember now). And she should know anyway, she was banging him.

I do like how when I made that thread most of the responses accused me of being a dragon age hater and being obsessed over minor plot holes, while as soon as a comic is made about it everyone suddenly agrees.

Strange that.

Hey, I agreed with you mostly. I liked the game, but the seeming lack of consequences is quite shocking. I mean, there are major decisions in DA2 alone that don't affect anything, and then they're introducing the implementation of save files that are retconned anyway.

Woodsey:
Hey, I agreed with you mostly. I liked the game, but the seeming lack of consequences is quite shocking. I mean, there are major decisions in DA2 alone that don't affect anything, and then they're introducing the implementation of save files that are retconned anyway.

Wait... what? This is news to me. I finished DA2 a couple nights ago and it seemed like there some pretty significant choices that affected what characters survived, ran off, etc. Hell, I even got crap from Aveline for selling her husband's shield. I dunno, seemed like there were a decent number of big choices.

Also, I had no clue Leliana could be killed in Origins. Then again, I rarely used her after I got Wynne. I needed those extra heals.

rsvp42:

Woodsey:
Hey, I agreed with you mostly. I liked the game, but the seeming lack of consequences is quite shocking. I mean, there are major decisions in DA2 alone that don't affect anything, and then they're introducing the implementation of save files that are retconned anyway.

Wait... what? This is news to me. I finished DA2 a couple nights ago and it seemed like there some pretty significant choices that affected what characters survived, ran off, etc. Hell, I even got crap from Aveline for selling her husband's shield. I dunno, seemed like there were a decent number of big choices.

Also, I had no clue Leliana could be killed in Origins. Then again, I rarely used her after I got Wynne. I needed those extra heals.

I was referring specifically to Anders, and how there's only one ending.

Woodsey:
I was referring specifically to Anders, and how there's only one ending.

Ah. Never really did much in Awakenings, myself.

She technically died in Lothering in my first game, I never met her.
She broke in my second game, got her agreement to high and she broke cutting off all her dialog, quest, and ability to care that I defiled the ashes.
Third time she actually functioned and I managed to not hate her.

If they provide an official explanation, or short story, or flash back in future Dragon Age installments explaining what magic or luck allowed her to live, then I'll continue my initial response of "Fair enough, Wynn was dead, My Warden should have died but didn't thanks to Flemmeth, then thanks to her friends, then thanks to Morrigan."

In my game's case it could be as simple as, "Well of course she didn't bloody well wait around and die to the Darkspawn and fire!"
I think I'll choose to believe she waited long enough that my Hawke knew her, maybe helped her escape.

If people are going to be hard on bad writing, be hard where it's due, Leliana's DA1 DLC.
Big narrative "omg that was my journey I'll leave you to decide how it ended... Even though you already explicitly know that I didn't die, and she didn't die, and then I came with you, and then we killed her, and then I explained all this in as much text as it really needed."
__

Beyond all that, almost off topic really.
Cameos make the world go round.
I would have liked Dragon Age 2 significantly less if it weren't for Flemmeth, Alistair, Leliana, the Shale rumor in the Hanged Man, Zevran, Anders, Merril etc.
Amazingly enough they all lined up flawlessly with my DA1 game. Awakening and DA1 had more issues with themselves than DA2 did with consistency.

ok there are a few things that need to be addressd.
1. in any game of that many choices there is always a "cannon" story which the developers agree on.
2.this is not even a real retcon. the decapitation animation is random for all enimies so she could have been rezed or saved by the ashes.
3.in the case of zevren hes and elf they do funky things............

in the long run they told you what they take as cannon (theyve said that the shepard thats cannon is male already btw) and people got butthurt cause in a small amount of play throughs they killed her.(a little more people killed zevren but like i said elves are weird like that)

I think unofficially you're not allowed to complain about spoilers for a game that has been widely successful and been out for over a year you can't claim
"OMG Spoilers"

Loonerinoes:
. Hilariously enough someone like Bethesda is allowed to get away with this every single time while their upcoming sequels are praised unendingly. Whereas when Bioware tries to pull this just once and suddenly you have everyone jumping on the hate train heh...not to say it isn't deserved - it is, they ultimately lowered their standards with this one. But double standards for the win every time I guess.

In our defense I don't think the strip had started last time Bethesda released a game. Trust me, if Skyrim is anything like Oblivion there'll be a few strips on that too.

Killing the French Bard and the crabby old lady in the first one over the ashes, was so much fun. I did have a boss to dispose of, but I took my time.

Loonerinoes:
Well, I suppose it's fortunate that the whole trailer for DA2 was named Destiny and the narrative within it was of how it's best to embrace it rather than fight it. *rolleyes*

and that it was advertised a spiritual sequel to Baldur's Gate, with Baldur's Gate II being filled with Wait, Edwin, didn't we kill you? or Xar? Aren't you dead?

You can say what you will about Gaider standing up for his work, but that doesn't stop him from coming across as a jackass.
Bad ratings? Its all 4-Chans fault.
One heterosexual has an issue? He's a homophobe.
Concerns over how valid our choices are in the previous game? Fuck you I can do what I want with my story.

Monty Python all the way.

Soviet Heavy:
You can say what you will about Gaider standing up for his work, but that doesn't stop him from coming across as a jackass.
Bad ratings? Its all 4-Chans fault.
One heterosexual has an issue? He's a homophobe.
Concerns over how valid our choices are in the previous game? Fuck you I can do what I want with my story.

1. There really was a serious amount of score bombing on the first day. Say what you will about Dragon Age II, but it's not worth a 1 out of 10. Most of the people posting that on day one had already made up their mind to hate it. That's what he was talking about. The consensus seems to have otherwise been that it's just mediocre, but not shockingly bad.
2. I'd like you to explain how you can spin 'I want an option that turns off gays in this game' in a way that is not incredibly disrespectful to homosexuals everywhere and comes across as massively homophobic. Because that's what he was demanding.
3. They did drop the ball on this one, I must say.

I was 100% behind David Geider until they rolled this one out. I wasn't aware you could kill Leliana until I heard about this, and I think nullifying that choice is overstepping some implicit boundaries. Just substitute her with a crappy stand-in character if you have to, but don't shatter my causality! At least slap an alternate model on her with a nasty scar or something.

Ummmmm... Yep. Same thing with that boob The Architect.

Basically DA2 seems like a bit of a cop out.

They realized somewhere in DA1, when making a ton of back stories that might play out in different ways. "Shit we are going to have to have 100 contingency plans for a sequel" So they said F that. And went with a brand new person. And apparently along the way decided they didn't want to have to bother remembering all the possible killings.

Now for some official handwavery:
"No no no, there aren't any bugs in our new shiny game. There is a bug in our old busted games, you see you only incapacitate Zevren, Liliana, or any other character who is still alive in DA2, DA1 should not have played the gory kill animation, that is the bug right there...."

Honestly though, when Leliana got her own DLC. I knew they were going to toss out the possibility of her death. Even though it was how you became a Reaver without just buying the book. Believe it or not, developers are people and they have favorites too. So the thought that one of them wanted to make Liliana's character so zealous to die for the ashes, but then not want to have to deal with the possibility that happened makes perfect sense.

Drakulea:
Wait, so Leliana shows up even if you killed her in the imported Dragon Age Origins save?

Talk about sloppy work.

I know right? Like once, it battle, some darkspawn totally killed Justice in Awakening with a combination of immolation, cutting, acid, biting, poison and ice and anders just used his REVIVE spell to bring him back. It was really weird, and it only happened a total of 200 times so it made the occurance very out of the ordinary. Sloppy work bioware. Sloppy work.

Then i murdered some ex priestess in front of a very holy icon near some priests with the power to revive and she DIDNT DIE! THE OUTRAGE! Bioware just CANT decide how their universe functions.

Madara XIII:
She's had worse /sarcasm

She has... she died under the effects of fire, acid, lightning, ice biting, mauling, crushing and being eaten like a bazillion times when i played on the hardest mode. And then wayne revived her.

rsvp42:

Woodsey:
I was referring specifically to Anders, and how there's only one ending.

Ah. Never really did much in Awakenings, myself.

No, the BIG THING that Anders does in DA2 that happens no matter what you may or may not do to help him.

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