Diablo III's Auction House

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Azure Sky:

fundayz:

Azure Sky:

1: Prohibition will not stop RMT, It has taken Blizzard long enough to realize this.

2: Any player of games, particularly MMOs knows that gear =/= skill, where is the advantage?

3: If you waste your own money, it's Blizzards fault now?

Seriously though, RMT will hit DIII within it's first shelf week, AH or not.
DII is crawling with them, WoW is almost as bad, it is an unsightly plague on MMOs.

1. Of course it won't stop it, but it DEFINITELY reduces it.

2. You are joking right? Go try to WoW PvP in a set of blues against a person in full epics and see how far you get. Gear might not equal skill but these games put A LOT of emphasis on gear, so much that it is the primary means of character progression. There is no reason to think D3 is going to be any better.

3. Did you even read what I was replying to? The person I was talking to said that Blizzard would be able to regulate RMT, and I pointed out that there is nothing to regulate.

Nobody is arguing the fact that RMT will hit D3 with auction house not, but making it illegal would definitely diminish it. Making it illegal poses a number of obstacles for a would-be gold buyer(banning risk, monetary risk, identity risk, hassle of dealing with shady sites, etc) that DOES prevent many cases of gold/item buying.

Azure Sky:
At least in this manner Blizzard is forcing the RMT to be played on their terms as well as hopefully keeping a stable market in the process.

Sorry but what terms are you talking about? The only term that Blizzard has put on this Auction House is that the seller must pay a fee. There is NOTHING stopping RMT'ers from simply moving their transcations from their own site to Blizzard's Auction house.

What makes you believe that this is going to remove any of the problems associated with RMT?

1: Not in the slightest, you do realize that RMT is, and always has been against the WoW ToS/EULA? I unfortunately bare witness to how successful their RMT sites are every time I log in.

2: Been there, done that. Was actually quite boring. However this is coming from someone who enjoys 'ganking' people that are 5-10 levels Higher then myself.

3: Sure there is, value of currency.

It will hit, and if WoW or DII is repeated and all the RMT is external, they will once again be powerless to stop it. As for risk? If they are outside of legal jurisdiction (US for Blizzard in this case) They cannot touch them, the best they can do is ban the account, assets and all. Which is usually a minor setback at best, as they usually only catch the carrier accounts, not the storage ones. Sand on a beach.

As for how the system will deal with the RMT problems? There is only one problem with RMT (Aside from hacking, but that is another topic) Is devaluation of currency. If farming sites are forced to buy, sell and trade on the same level as every other player in the game there is a greater likelihood that the currency will retain its value. Not to mention it allows Blizz to track suspect accounts as everything is serverside.

1. So don't bother tracking them down and shutting down, let's help them. And get something for ourselves.
2. Yeeaaaahhh okay.
3. No? Blizzard isn't going to do anything to AH, it's player-driven.

Okay, look at this: Gold selling companies set up bots/Chinese sweat shop workers to farm items/gold.

You find an unique, incredibly happy, go to AH, and want to get a fair price for it. You know it's a good unique, it's great item.

What do you see?

JoeyHoney1 sells it for $0.5, JoeyHoney2 sells it for $0.5, JoeyHoney3 sells it for $0.5. Hundreds of Chinese bots break down the economy.

Abedeus:
1. So don't bother tracking them down and shutting down, let's help them. And get something for ourselves.
2. Yeeaaaahhh okay.
3. No? Blizzard isn't going to do anything to AH, it's player-driven.

Okay, look at this: Gold selling companies set up bots/Chinese sweat shop workers to farm items/gold.

You find an unique, incredibly happy, go to AH, and want to get a fair price for it. You know it's a good unique, it's great item.

What do you see?

JoeyHoney1 sells it for $0.5, JoeyHoney2 sells it for $0.5, JoeyHoney3 sells it for $0.5. Hundreds of Chinese bots break down the economy.

1: Given the current evidence, Blizz is unable to 'track down' much less being able to touch any operation off-shore save for occasionally catching a carrier account, which has nothing stored.

2: I pick on people more 'powerful', it's how I roll. =3

3: The point stands, it self-regulates, as I have said many times.

Besides, any RMT site that operates in Blizzards little AH essentially lay all their cards out for Blizzard to track on a whim. Unlike the ones that operate out of unsecured third party sites.

Not to mention there is a currency lock on the AH's, making it much harder to trade USD outside of the US. And if they start up in the US, then Blizz can crush them with the 250mm Lawyer Cannons. =3

Edit: Also keep in mind that the RMTers still need to pull a profit over the Listing, Sale and Cash out Fees. Blizz have stated that players get a few free listings a week, and if you don't cash out - use it for more AH/Blizz store, that is a potential 1 fee to 3, netting you a higher profit at a lower listing price.

Edit:Edit: Driving RMTers to list at bare minimum prices, while still being able to undercut them for higher profit as well as potentially securing a high-value currency market seems to be a highly possible outcome - assuming Blizz don't screw it up.

Azure Sky:

Abedeus:
1. So don't bother tracking them down and shutting down, let's help them. And get something for ourselves.
2. Yeeaaaahhh okay.
3. No? Blizzard isn't going to do anything to AH, it's player-driven.

Okay, look at this: Gold selling companies set up bots/Chinese sweat shop workers to farm items/gold.

You find an unique, incredibly happy, go to AH, and want to get a fair price for it. You know it's a good unique, it's great item.

What do you see?

JoeyHoney1 sells it for $0.5, JoeyHoney2 sells it for $0.5, JoeyHoney3 sells it for $0.5. Hundreds of Chinese bots break down the economy.

1: Given the current evidence, Blizz is unable to 'track down' much less being able to touch any operation off-shore save for occasionally catching a carrier account, which has nothing stored.

2: I pick on people more 'powerful', it's how I roll. =3

3: The point stands, it self-regulates, as I have said many times.

Besides, any RMT site that operates in Blizzards little AH essentially lay all their cards out for Blizzard to track on a whim. Unlike the ones that operate out of unsecured third party sites.

Not to mention there is a currency lock on the AH's, making it much harder to trade USD outside of the US. And if they start up in the US, then Blizz can crush them with the 250mm Lawyer Cannons. =3

Your 1 and things under 3rd point contradict themselves.

Blizz can't track down RMT. But if they try to start RMT here, Blizz will make law happen!!1
Unless they just connect from outside.

AH regulates itself IF it's just players. Bots don't count as players. Even if a thousand of players wants to sell an item for $5, bots will get ten times more items and sell them for $2.5. People who want to buy the item won't care if it's from a legal player or a bot, thus forcing normal people to sell items cheaper. RMT bots will put their items cheaper, and it will happen over and over until everyone gives up on AH and just lets the bots sell items. Items become worthless, even more than in D2, because now you can legally sell them for real money.

Abedeus:

Azure Sky:
snip

Your 1 and things under 3rd point contradict themselves.

Blizz can't track down RMT. But if they try to start RMT here, Blizz will make law happen!!1
Unless they just connect from outside.

AH regulates itself IF it's just players. Bots don't count as players. Even if a thousand of players wants to sell an item for $5, bots will get ten times more items and sell them for $2.5. People who want to buy the item won't care if it's from a legal player or a bot, thus forcing normal people to sell items cheaper. RMT bots will put their items cheaper, and it will happen over and over until everyone gives up on AH and just lets the bots sell items. Items become worthless, even more than in D2, because now you can legally sell them for real money.

1st and 3rd point have noting to do with one another.

Also, read my edits, sleep deprivation is leading me to miss things.

The auction house doesn't sound as bad as it could be, It isn't like it's necessary to buy items to "be good." Then again, I can see why the PvP kiddies and those who are hoping to make their mark online would be upset at this, and for some odd reason, I feel like listening to some classic Beck with a big foolish grin on my face.

On the other hand, in spite of the fact I play Diablo 2 regularly, I don't trade on D2jsp, I don't but from item sites and I don't PvP, I don't care where I am on the Ladder...

aaaand I've never been to Boston in the fall!

Xzi:
Yeah, I'm not sure this is the right solution to gold and item selling. It reeks of Kotick.

Cmon don't be like that, you know Bobby loves you('re wallet)

Gotta hand it to them tho, the pool of money making bullshit ideas never runs out.

Abedeus:
Your 1 and things under 3rd point contradict themselves.

Blizz can't track down RMT. But if they try to start RMT here, Blizz will make law happen!!1
Unless they just connect from outside.

AH regulates itself IF it's just players. Bots don't count as players. Even if a thousand of players wants to sell an item for $5, bots will get ten times more items and sell them for $2.5. People who want to buy the item won't care if it's from a legal player or a bot, thus forcing normal people to sell items cheaper. RMT bots will put their items cheaper, and it will happen over and over until everyone gives up on AH and just lets the bots sell items. Items become worthless, even more than in D2, because now you can legally sell them for real money.

Don't bother arguing with him, you can't get logic through. He speaks out of speculation, avoids arguments, and misleads conversation.

His whole argument boils down to "Players will out compete RMT sites thus stabilizing the economy", yet keeps avoiding the question of HOW regular, casual players are going to compete with businesses built and OPTIMIZED to produce the most amount of gold using unfair, but unavoidable, means like bots and exploited 3rd world workers? The answer is obvious: They won't.

Players WILL be undercut and oversold by near-anonymous groups, as integrating the transaction system into the game will remove the necessity of having site in the first place. This system gives RMT groups a direct, secure line to their customers in-game.

It is absolutely genius from a business stand point, being basically a perfect example of "If you can't beat them, join them". However, even though it will likely make them more money, it sells out the integrity of the franchise by making Diablo 3 a game that you buy in order to spend more money on it.

He also completely ignored one of my main points(even though he claimed he did): Even if the economic problems with RMT group WERE completely avoided, allowing players to buy in-game benefits using out-of-game means is a terrible idea.

You can't sale power! Even Extra Credits had an episode about this.

It undermines the challenge of the game, the reward mechanics of the game, and [more importantly] it completely undermines other players' efforts and merits.

Double post. :(

fundayz:
It undermines the challenge of the game, the reward mechanics of the game, and [more importantly] it completely undermines other players' efforts and merits.

It will undermine the challenge of the game IF you so let it and allow others to dictate to you how to enjoy playing the game. I'm not sure how many people will break down and spend real money for virtual items (I sure as hell wouldn't, even IF i were interested in D3) and it would only be an issue with the people who take the PvP aspect seriously*. If there will be a PvP leaderboard or even a "ladder", then yes, this is an issue and needs to be redeveloped. Otherwise, why not just go and play the damn game (when it comes out, of course) and not worry about whether someone else is "cheating?"

This used to be an issue for me. Then I decided to just do my own thing and build characters with gear I farmed from my own characters. And it's the most fun I have until friends ask me for the tenth time if I want a shako or an arach's or if I need a rush for a sorceress so I can start botting.

*Do I have to tell you about how wonderfully mature and professional the Diablo PvP community is?

Breywood:

fundayz:
It undermines the challenge of the game, the reward mechanics of the game, and [more importantly] it completely undermines other players' efforts and merits.

It will undermine the challenge of the game IF you so let it and allow others to dictate to you how to enjoy playing the game. I'm not sure how many people will break down and spend real money for virtual items (I sure as hell wouldn't, even IF i were interested in D3) and it would only be an issue with the people who take the PvP aspect seriously*. If there will be a PvP leaderboard or even a "ladder", then yes, this is an issue and needs to be redeveloped. Otherwise, why not just go and play the damn game (when it comes out, of course) and not worry about whether someone else is "cheating?"

This used to be an issue for me. Then I decided to just do my own thing and build characters with gear I farmed from my own characters. And it's the most fun I have until friends ask me for the tenth time if I want a shako or an arach's or if I need a rush for a sorceress so I can start botting.

*Do I have to tell you about how wonderfully mature and professional the Diablo PvP community is?

Well good for you, really, that you can enjoy a game while others buy and cheat their game through. However, we are talking about a multiplayer environment not just playing solo. You can't restrict players to a single player experience unless they want to spend money just to be on a level playing field.

Also, just because you don't PvP doesn't mean other people don't enjoy this aspect of the game, in fact, it is one of the reasons D2 is still played today.

Do you think casual PvP players that don't want to spend more money on the game won't be bothered when they find out that a vast number of their opponents have bought their gear? Even players that don't care about a leaderboard(like me) still care about fair competition. Being at an inherent disadvantage is never fun in competition, and the fact is that the average non-paying player WILL be at a disadvantage compared to the average paying player(if there wasn't an advantage).

You could try to argue that not that many people will buy items but, considering many, many people already risk their accounts, money and personal information to buy items from shady third party sites, I think that is a very naive assumption for a game that has Real Money Trading built in.

Furthermore, Blizzard believes that most players will tend to go to the RMAH instead of the gold AH and considers playing the market with real world currencies being a fair practice.

The bottom line is that with the RMAH they have made Diablo 3 a single player game first and a RMT game second. If you only play single player or maybe with friends only you won't find yourself affected but if you want multiplayer then you will be at a disadvantage against many players unless you buy at least some gear/weapons/upgrades/etc.

fundayz:

He also completely ignored one of my main points(even though he claimed he did): Even if the economic problems with RMT group WERE completely avoided, allowing players to buy in-game benefits using out-of-game means is a terrible idea.

You can't sale power! Even Extra Credits had an episode about this.

It undermines the challenge of the game, the reward mechanics of the game, and [more importantly] it completely undermines other players' efforts and merits.

Not true.

Well, technically, at least.

Sirlin.net had a very lengthy exposition about this at some point, but you'd be able to find the same arguments elsewhere. I'll give you a few to get started, when I have time I'll try and find the exposé on it.

1) This RMAH will not sell power.

If you're coming from a WoW standpoint, you might think it does. But Diablo isn't WoW. Diablo hasn't got any "Bind on Pickup" items. Decking out newbie friends in ridiculously powerful stuff is part of the game. Real Money transactions or not, this is something you'll need to come to terms with when playing Diablo. You're completely free to detest this, but it's a part of the game's design. People who were looking forward to this title can't complain about this point without also saying they never liked the title in the first place.

Furthermore: There's no items that can only be acquired on the RMAH. Hence, power isn't "sold". You can acquire power, yes. But you always could. This time around, there's a safe, alternative payment form alongside the old one. The "don't sell power" argument is saying "don't make spending money a better alternative than *not* spending money". You probably didn't think the Extra Credits episode through.

2) Time = Money

Remember that saying? Even the goblins in WoW say it all the time, which is sort of ironic since WoW doesn't adhere to this policy. Lets play the "suppose" game for a second. Suppose I'm the best player in the world. Like, seriously, I'm frigging awesome. I'm way better than you. In fact, I'm so good that I spend my days and most of my nights playing in and winning various other tournaments. Like, say Halo and SC2 and WoW arenas. I don't have time to play D3 and farm up that über rare by running Baal 150 times a day and thus I buy the best gear with all my prize money from other games. Now I can compete with you, the player who has tons of time.

My gear isn't going to be better than yours, since we both have access to the same pool of items it literally can't be better. It can be on par, yes, but never better. You could respond to this argument by saying "But I put in more time, hence I should have better equipment." and you know what? You'd be wrong.

It's a valid reasoning, for sure. "More time = better gear" is basically what WoW is all about. Thing is, Diablo doesn't use the same design principles. You might think "More time = better gear." should be true everywhere, but the Diablo developers disagree. They think "Time = Money" and that's not wrong. It's a different viewpoint, but just as valid as yours. I wish people would learn to recognise and respect viewpoints that are not their own.

On top of all that wall of text, you should probably be aware of the fact that Diablo isn't going to be supporting serious PvP. I've already written out a "PvP was never promised to be balanced. It's working as intended." post to copypasta to every single "DIABLO PVP IS BROHKEN I R QUITTING STUPID BLIZZ11!!1" post I see. so all this fear that you're going to be curbstomped by people who buy their gear is pretty silly to start with.

Azure Sky:

Abedeus:

Azure Sky:
snip

Your 1 and things under 3rd point contradict themselves.

Blizz can't track down RMT. But if they try to start RMT here, Blizz will make law happen!!1
Unless they just connect from outside.

AH regulates itself IF it's just players. Bots don't count as players. Even if a thousand of players wants to sell an item for $5, bots will get ten times more items and sell them for $2.5. People who want to buy the item won't care if it's from a legal player or a bot, thus forcing normal people to sell items cheaper. RMT bots will put their items cheaper, and it will happen over and over until everyone gives up on AH and just lets the bots sell items. Items become worthless, even more than in D2, because now you can legally sell them for real money.

1st and 3rd point have noting to do with one another.

Also, read my edits, sleep deprivation is leading me to miss things.

I said Point nr1 and stuff UNDER 3. The whole "Blizz will use the power of lawyers to combat them blablabla". Either Blizzard can't control them, or they can. Make up your damn mind.

I smell the stench of the dark overlord of Activision all over this.

And guess what? It won't work, even if they stop item sellers from personally trading stuff and getting payed through third party websites (which i doubt). Farmers will still completely outbid and undersell everyone who gets these item while playing normally.

Blizzard can't win the fight against farmers and spammers, all this is doing is hoard more money that they won't put toward better games.

I'm actually really disappointed with Blizzard, and have been for some time, do you guys remember how awesome the cut-scenes in Warcraft III were? Do you know the reason why they refuse to make great cutscenes like those for their current games? They say it costs too much. They are literally saying, that now that they're a billion dollar mega-corporation and they know that people will buy whatever they pump out, they are willing to cut a million corners and not put nearly as much money or effort into their games as they could and/or should.

I find this really, really depressing.

Edited for grammar and spelling

PH3NOmenon:

1) This RMAH will not sell power.

If you're coming from a WoW standpoint, you might think it does. But Diablo isn't WoW. Diablo hasn't got any "Bind on Pickup" items. Decking out newbie friends in ridiculously powerful stuff is part of the game. Real Money transactions or not, this is something you'll need to come to terms with when playing Diablo. You're completely free to detest this, but it's a part of the game's design. People who were looking forward to this title can't complain about this point without also saying they never liked the title in the first place.

Furthermore: There's no items that can only be acquired on the RMAH. Hence, power isn't "sold". You can acquire power, yes. But you always could. This time around, there's a safe, alternative payment form alongside the old one. The "don't sell power" argument is saying "don't make spending money a better alternative than *not* spending money". You probably didn't think the Extra Credits episode through.

1. There's a HUGE difference between a Free Economy like EVE's, Diablo 2's, or even Runescape's and a Free RMT Economy. There is also a HUGE difference between making or obtaining money through in-game means and using out-of-game resources for an instantaneous advantage.

2. How does the RMAH NOT sell power? Can you buy gear better than the one you have? Yes! Can you buy gold to spend in game? Yes! Will you be able to buy pre-made characters? Yes!

Just because you are not forced to buy power doesn't mean you that power isn't sold.

3. The analogy of a player being helped out by a friend breaks down when you realize that the benefiting player is not adding out-of-game resources into the economy and that the RMAH doesn't act like a friend helping you out once in a while.

The RMAH is going to allow players to buy whatever advantage items or gold give them whenever they want, allowing people with money to basically bypass the game. Factor in character sales(which is already planned by Blizz) and anyone can simply stroll in with the best character and equipment available right off the bat as long as they got the money for it.

PH3NOmenon:

2) Time = Money

Remember that saying? Even the goblins in WoW say it all the time, which is sort of ironic since WoW doesn't adhere to this policy. Lets play the "suppose" game for a second. Suppose I'm the best player in the world. Like, seriously, I'm frigging awesome. I'm way better than you. In fact, I'm so good that I spend my days and most of my nights playing in and winning various other tournaments. Like, say Halo and SC2 and WoW arenas. I don't have time to play D3 and farm up that über rare by running Baal 150 times a day and thus I buy the best gear with all my prize money from other games. Now I can compete with you, the player who has tons of time.

My gear isn't going to be better than yours, since we both have access to the same pool of items it literally can't be better. It can be on par, yes, but never better. You could respond to this argument by saying "But I put in more time, hence I should have better equipment." and you know what? You'd be wrong.

It's a valid reasoning, for sure. "More time = better gear" is basically what WoW is all about. Thing is, Diablo doesn't use the same design principles. You might think "More time = better gear." should be true everywhere, but the Diablo developers disagree. They think "Time = Money" and that's not wrong. It's a different viewpoint, but just as valid as yours. I wish people would learn to recognise and respect viewpoints that are not their own.

On top of all that wall of text, you should probably be aware of the fact that Diablo isn't going to be supporting serious PvP. I've already written out a "PvP was never promised to be balanced. It's working as intended." post to copypasta to every single "DIABLO PVP IS BROHKEN I R QUITTING STUPID BLIZZ11!!1" post I see. so all this fear that you're going to be curbstomped by people who buy their gear is pretty silly to start with.

How could your gear never better than other players' if you are using money to buy it? Do you think everyone is going to have the best gear? This is of course not true and the RMT will allow anyone to buy an advantage over many other players WITH OUT-OF-GAME RESOURCES.

I don't care if you care if you buy things with in-game gold and your own hard work/trading skills, but the moment you bring in real world currency into it you are undermining other players' merits.

If you can't see how a player being able to instantly obtain everything another player has acquired through in-game effort, whether combat or trading, just by using real world currency then there is not much left to talk about.

Finally, it is incredibly narrow-minded if you think that PvP won't be affected just because it isn't serious or hardcore PvP. You don't have to be a hardcore PvPer to dislike the fact that your competition has possibly bought an advantage.

To say you can't stop item selling/gold selling is absolutely disingenuous.

Know a really stupidly easy way to instant-kill any bots?

First of all: you don't sell the game retail. You sell it only on your online account. In order to buy this game, you have to provide a debit or credit card number.

Now say you get caught botting/item selling/other illegal activity.

First and foremost, your CD key, your email account, and your game as it pertains to that credit card/debit card automatically gets banned. And second of all, since I'd have your credit card/debit card number on account, I can hide the latter portion of my EULA somewhere 3 quarters down where you'll definitely scroll past if you just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree" that if you do cheat, well hey, I have your CC/DC in my database, so as a penalty for griefing the legitimate players, I'm going to gouge you for another $100 for a game you may have paid $60 originally from.

How do you detect cheating? Easy. Statistics. Keep message logs in every game. This is extremely easy with Diablo type games in which it's not a single persistent server. Do you have <<long string of consonants>> (EG sdfgxfkbndmfg) joined the game. Level 1 (how they get to nm/hell is beyond me, glitch rushes, go figure). And now they're going to spam.

"BUY OUR ITEMS!!!! WWW.PHATLEWTZ.COM!"
"UNID SWORD OF NOOB SLAYING, RED RING OF DEATH, SHIELD OF ALL BLOCKING!"
"ALL $5 OR LESS! WHEN YOU PURCHASE, GET A FREE BOOTS OF BETTER LOOTS!"

And of course, those three lines don't come up at a rate of 100 WPM or however fast somebody types. They get copy-pasta'd in all of 2 seconds.

So, how many different "this is a bot" giveaways do we have?

A: a long string of consonants. I suppose this can be subverted with some vowels thrown in. Such as aserseraweasdfser. But stupid bots might get caught by this.
B: Level 1, or other extremely low level for the level of difficulty they're joining.
C: Usually this toon is "naked" or has no gear on themselves whatsoever. If you assign certain numerical values to gear for the sake of detecting this kind of thing, you'll see that these guys are easy outliers.
D: Caps spam. Once again, another easily subverted one, but some bots might do this. Another easy catch.
E: Website extensions. ".com", ".net", etc...
F: The $ symbol. Or heck, #.## or ##.## (price advertisements).
G: Ungodly WPM. In my example, that's 31 words. They'll pop out usually in 3 seconds. That's about 10 words a second, or 600 WPM. I'm not sure if any human alive can hit that. I'd be amazed at 300 WPM.

After every instance of a game closes down, just run this script over the chatlog. It should take all of a couple of seconds. Wham, instant ban.

It's really the same kind of crap that Gmail uses to send stuff to your spam filter. Imagine if these bots tried spamming your gmail. Wham, instantly to the spam bin. Why can't blizz do the EXACT SAME THING?

Worst to worst, heck, tell you what...

If I'm a game company and want to prevent this thing: create a special item called "sigil of the just", which gets obtained by reporting spammers like this. Make it be something along the power level of the annihilus small charm in D2. Bot comes on, someone goes "print screen", emails blizz the screenshot and their account name/character name on whom they want the item, and next time they log in, wham, brand new shiny piece of power, and one less bot on the realms. This is all very very simple.

And then, on your website, have a counter of "accounts banned today", and every so often, have a press release saying "over the last X months, we've banned X00,000 accounts. We take a hard stance against cheating and underhanded practices. Anyone caught doing this will have their account banned without warning."

So not only do I profiteer from cheaters underhanded policies (oh hey, nice item selling website. Account ban, gouge your credit card, try it again and the same thing will happen), but I also build my brand with upstanding legitimate players.

What's so difficult here?

fundayz:
However, we are talking about a multiplayer environment not just playing solo. You can't restrict players to a single player experience unless they want to spend money just to be on a level playing field.

Even co-operative play? Interesting.

fundayz:
Also, just because you don't PvP doesn't mean other people don't enjoy this aspect of the game, in fact, it is one of the reasons D2 is still played today.

Good point. And you know what the rules are?

"No deadly strike. No critical hit. No resistances above 75%. No usage of (insert whatever is the weak point of their build). Anything which causes my character to be defeated is either lag generated by my opponent or BM BM BM BM BM"

fundayz:
Do you think casual PvP players that don't want to spend more money on the game won't be bothered when they find out that a vast number of their opponents have bought their gear?

Of course they would. See above. There are always ways to build cheap but effective characters. It's not just the itamz, it's also the tactics.

fundayz:
The bottom line is that with the RMAH they have made Diablo 3 a single player game first and a RMT game second. If you only play single player or maybe with friends only you won't find yourself affected but if you want multiplayer then you will be at a disadvantage against many players unless you buy at least some gear/weapons/upgrades/etc.

Right. You wouldn't want to be laughed at because you need to be rushed. And the guy who spent $50 has the right to heap the personal abuse upon you because you're so n00b you need his help? Oh wait. Multiplayer will be totally competitive?

This isn't to say that I don't see your point. Perhaps if they killed the RM aspect this would make it better? Perhaps I'm a little too old and jaded to be upset about a level playing field in a video game like Diablo 3.

Ilyak1986:
And second of all, since I'd have your credit card/debit card number on account, I can hide the latter portion of my EULA somewhere 3 quarters down where you'll definitely scroll past if you just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree" that if you do cheat, well hey, I have your CC/DC in my database, so as a penalty for griefing the legitimate players, I'm going to gouge you for another $100 for a game you may have paid $60 originally from.

So you're not only recommending disingenuous EULAs, but also that the developer issue FINES for ingame transgressions.

Wow, just wow. That is easily the stupidest thing i have ever heard posted on a video game board.

First off, there's the burning issue of how legal that kind of thing is, i'm gonna have to guess that, it isn't, at all, and that if it is, then it shouldn't be.

Sure your system would probably work, just like installing cameras in all homes and microphones in everything could probably stop crime. It's not a good solution, your kind of solution basically treats every single person who plays a came like a criminal at all times.

Fuck. That. I say.

fundayz:

You can't sale power! Even Extra Credits had an episode about this.

It undermines the challenge of the game, the reward mechanics of the game, and [more importantly] it completely undermines other players' efforts and merits.

The AH system doesn't sell power. Selling power generally means that paying players will have access to content that non-paying players don't have access to. Every single item that is put up for sale in the AH is attainable by playing the game normally. The only advantage for players using cash transactions is getting the items/gear they want faster than other players. It only undermines the challenge of the game and reward mechanics for the players who buy into the system.

If you're going to bring up Extra Credits, then realize that this system is basically what the Extra Credits guys were promoting. The AH system sells convenience, not power. F2P players will have access to all content that P2P players have access to. It's just that the P2P guys will have gotten it faster.

bringer of illumination:

I'm actually really disappointed with Blizzard, and have been for some time, do you guys remember how awesome the cut-scenes in Warcraft III were? Do you know the reason why they refuse to make great cutscenes like those for their current games? They say it costs too much. They are literally saying, that now that they're a billion dollar mega-corporation and they know that people will buy whatever they pump out, they are willing to cut a million corners and not put nearly as much money or effort into their games as they could and/or should.

I don't know about you, but I thought the cutscenes in SC2 were pretty awesome.

captainwalrus:

The AH system doesn't sell power. Selling power generally means that paying players will have access to content that non-paying players don't have access to. Every single item that is put up for sale in the AH is attainable by playing the game normally. The only advantage for players using cash transactions is getting the items/gear they want faster than other players. It only undermines the challenge of the game and reward mechanics for the players who buy into the system.

If you're going to bring up Extra Credits, then realize that this system is basically what the Extra Credits guys were promoting. The AH system sells convenience, not power. F2P players will have access to all content that P2P players have access to. It's just that the P2P guys will have gotten it faster.

You couldn't be any more mistaken. The P2P players aren't getting things faster, they are getting them instantly and without ANY in-game effort.

Selling power is not just having access to more content, although that is sometimes ONE way to buy power.

Power is ANYTHING that gives you a direct in-game advantage. Buying items, gold and characters (i.e. all the things that will be traded on Diablo 3's RMAH) is the most basic way of buying power. It doesn't matter if everyone has the same potential power level, the fact is that someone can use out-of-game resources to instantly and effortlessly improve their combat performance.

This is NOT convenience. Convenience is things like extra inventory room, extra bank room, more character slots, etc; These things do not directly improve a player's combat performance. Items, gold and pre-made characters do give a direct combat advantage.

An example might make it easier to see why Diablo 3's RMAH is EXACTLY selling power:

Player A and Player B both start playing on the same day. They both have the same amount of skill and time available to play.

After a week of playing, both players have the same level, stats and their armours are of equivalent quality. For all intents and purposes these two players are equivalent.

At this point Player B hops on the RMAH and uses real world currency to buy a full set of high quality gear, expensive runes and gems, and a large chunk of gold to boot for things like repairs and the like.

Player B now has better stats and skills than Player A, making him more powerful for the sole reason of having spent real world money.

Ilyak1986:
To say you can't stop item selling/gold selling is absolutely disingenuous.

Know a really stupidly easy way to instant-kill any bots?

First of all: you don't sell the game retail. You sell it only on your online account. In order to buy this game, you have to provide a debit or credit card number.

Now say you get caught botting/item selling/other illegal activity.

First and foremost, your CD key, your email account, and your game as it pertains to that credit card/debit card automatically gets banned. And second of all, since I'd have your credit card/debit card number on account, I can hide the latter portion of my EULA somewhere 3 quarters down where you'll definitely scroll past if you just scroll to the bottom and click "I agree" that if you do cheat, well hey, I have your CC/DC in my database, so as a penalty for griefing the legitimate players, I'm going to gouge you for another $100 for a game you may have paid $60 originally from.

How do you detect cheating? Easy. Statistics. Keep message logs in every game. This is extremely easy with Diablo type games in which it's not a single persistent server. Do you have <<long string of consonants>> (EG sdfgxfkbndmfg) joined the game. Level 1 (how they get to nm/hell is beyond me, glitch rushes, go figure). And now they're going to spam.

"BUY OUR ITEMS!!!! WWW.PHATLEWTZ.COM!"
"UNID SWORD OF NOOB SLAYING, RED RING OF DEATH, SHIELD OF ALL BLOCKING!"
"ALL $5 OR LESS! WHEN YOU PURCHASE, GET A FREE BOOTS OF BETTER LOOTS!"

And of course, those three lines don't come up at a rate of 100 WPM or however fast somebody types. They get copy-pasta'd in all of 2 seconds.

So, how many different "this is a bot" giveaways do we have?

A: a long string of consonants. I suppose this can be subverted with some vowels thrown in. Such as aserseraweasdfser. But stupid bots might get caught by this.
B: Level 1, or other extremely low level for the level of difficulty they're joining.
C: Usually this toon is "naked" or has no gear on themselves whatsoever. If you assign certain numerical values to gear for the sake of detecting this kind of thing, you'll see that these guys are easy outliers.
D: Caps spam. Once again, another easily subverted one, but some bots might do this. Another easy catch.
E: Website extensions. ".com", ".net", etc...
F: The $ symbol. Or heck, #.## or ##.## (price advertisements).
G: Ungodly WPM. In my example, that's 31 words. They'll pop out usually in 3 seconds. That's about 10 words a second, or 600 WPM. I'm not sure if any human alive can hit that. I'd be amazed at 300 WPM.

After every instance of a game closes down, just run this script over the chatlog. It should take all of a couple of seconds. Wham, instant ban.

It's really the same kind of crap that Gmail uses to send stuff to your spam filter. Imagine if these bots tried spamming your gmail. Wham, instantly to the spam bin. Why can't blizz do the EXACT SAME THING?

Worst to worst, heck, tell you what...

If I'm a game company and want to prevent this thing: create a special item called "sigil of the just", which gets obtained by reporting spammers like this. Make it be something along the power level of the annihilus small charm in D2. Bot comes on, someone goes "print screen", emails blizz the screenshot and their account name/character name on whom they want the item, and next time they log in, wham, brand new shiny piece of power, and one less bot on the realms. This is all very very simple.

And then, on your website, have a counter of "accounts banned today", and every so often, have a press release saying "over the last X months, we've banned X00,000 accounts. We take a hard stance against cheating and underhanded practices. Anyone caught doing this will have their account banned without warning."

So not only do I profiteer from cheaters underhanded policies (oh hey, nice item selling website. Account ban, gouge your credit card, try it again and the same thing will happen), but I also build my brand with upstanding legitimate players.

What's so difficult here?

This x 1000

Really, RMAH is a flimsy way to prevent Shady Item Shops from flourishing. In fact, it's just a bold statement that Blizzard wants their cut from sales from such Shops. I don't mind the concept of AH itself. Properly implemented, it will just be another way to trade, but the whole real money BS just reeks of whole awful micro-transactions and premium services Blizzard has been so crazy about lately...

Anyway, i think i won't be able to add anything of value to the discussion other then that at least one person (Ilyak1986) sees the core of the issue.
Kudos!

Abedeus:

Azure Sky:

Abedeus:

Your 1 and things under 3rd point contradict themselves.

Blizz can't track down RMT. But if they try to start RMT here, Blizz will make law happen!!1
Unless they just connect from outside.

AH regulates itself IF it's just players. Bots don't count as players. Even if a thousand of players wants to sell an item for $5, bots will get ten times more items and sell them for $2.5. People who want to buy the item won't care if it's from a legal player or a bot, thus forcing normal people to sell items cheaper. RMT bots will put their items cheaper, and it will happen over and over until everyone gives up on AH and just lets the bots sell items. Items become worthless, even more than in D2, because now you can legally sell them for real money.

1st and 3rd point have noting to do with one another.

Also, read my edits, sleep deprivation is leading me to miss things.

I said Point nr1 and stuff UNDER 3. The whole "Blizz will use the power of lawyers to combat them blablabla". Either Blizzard can't control them, or they can. Make up your damn mind.

What Blizzard can control:
Any and all sites/businesses that operate within the legal jurisdiction of the US. (IE:These are the people Blizz can actually sue and such.)
Any and all accounts connected to their servers. (But they still have to catch you/have reasonable suspicion first)

What Blizzard cannot control:
Any and all sites/Businesses outside the US. (As there is no way Blizzard can take legal action against someone overseas, let alone shut them down. This is probably the biggest problem they have at this point)
Any and all Transactions that happen outside of their servers.

In short, any third party transaction (See:Pretty much all RMT to date) is basically untouchable.

ElBozo:
Anyway, i think i won't be able to add anything of value to the discussion other then that at least one person (Ilyak1986) sees the core of the issue.
Kudos!

Treating your player base as criminals right off the boat is the fastest way to get an en-mass boycott like you have never seen. Not to mention it probably isn't even legal.

Azure Sky:

Abedeus:

Azure Sky:

1st and 3rd point have noting to do with one another.

Also, read my edits, sleep deprivation is leading me to miss things.

I said Point nr1 and stuff UNDER 3. The whole "Blizz will use the power of lawyers to combat them blablabla". Either Blizzard can't control them, or they can. Make up your damn mind.

What Blizzard can control:
Any and all sites/businesses that operate within the legal jurisdiction of the US. (IE:These are the people Blizz can actually sue and such.)
Any and all accounts connected to their servers. (But they still have to catch you/have reasonable suspicion first)

What Blizzard cannot control:
Any and all sites/Businesses outside the US. (As there is no way Blizzard can take legal action against someone overseas, let alone shut them down. This is probably the biggest problem they have at this point)
Any and all Transactions that happen outside of their servers.

In short, any third party transaction (See:Pretty much all RMT to date) is basically untouchable.

They can't take legal action against them--but on the same note, those companies cannot take legal action against blizzard.

So, once again, if I knew that Chinese gold farmers were going to be an issue in my popular game, I would require a credit card number for a purchase. And once you've purchased the game, then hello, you just wrote me a blank check. Every single week, I can do a server maintenance on all my X million (really not that many) and simply see if that credit card is still legal. Aka have a $0.0001 per month subscription plan, just to check whether or not your credit card is still valid.

Now, when I catch you trying to sell gold because you run a Chinese gold farming sweatshop, then oh hey, how nice, you can't take legal action against me.

Now your account (with its attached credit card) buys a "token of imbeciles" for $1,000 USD. The "BUY OUR LOOTZ" spamming bot that tried to advertise your service now has its inventory filled with "token of imbeciles" tokens that you can't remove, and just to make sure, we permaban your account, permaban your CD key, and permaban that credit card number from our servers, AFTER raping it for all it's worth.

And the best part? We just put that in the EULA, which most players don't bother to read anyway because it's written in thick and dense legalese. And then some shmo will say "oh hey guys, you really shouldn't be running a black market activity otherwise you'll get taken to the cleaners". Who's going to protest that? What, is someone going to sue for illegality because they can't run a black market activity?

My analogy is to a gym owner (or other owner of a public place) who charges for some sort of membership. Now, some douchebags come in and causes a massive commotion (or do some other very unpleasant thing) to the point that you're losing customers. Well, how do you retain that revenue? Gouge the douchebags!

See, what blizzard has done is rather than make RMT (real money trading) an illiquid, black-market activity, which carried all sorts of risks of having your account stolen (extremely insidious in WoW, and a loss of all characters on a single player character account in Diablo) to getting scammed, your credit card gouged by some Chinese guys, etc..., now it's all a riskless out-in-the-open activity. Blizzard is blatantly selling power here. Sure, blizzard itself isn't, but players are--and blizzard gets a cut from that.

This whole RMAH isn't a way to cut down on the black marketeers. It's blizzard saying "oh hey--this is another way to monetize the game! Why should the black marketeers get all of the revenue from this cash stream when we can provide liquidity and get all sorts of fees as market makers?"

So in a sense, blizzard itself is playing the role of the black marketers. Because I really want to know how there was an overwhelming amount of players that clamored for RMT in Diablo, because on the bnet forums, the reactions range from mildly condoning to abjectly against. (Most in the negative categories).

Anybody that's saying that blizzard has their fans in mind and does this only with noble intentions, such as lack of LAN support, RMT, etc... needs to get their head out of the nether regions of their rectum and realize this:

Blizzard is now part of a public company--Activision Blizzard (ticker ATVI). Meaning, it no longer first and foremost answers to fans--it first and foremost answers to shareholders.

"What are you going to do to prevent piracy?"
"How can you further gain revenue out of a one time sale?"

Etc. etc. etc.

Joe Gamer cares about how the wizard will stack up against the monk, or how she'll be balanced between having to stand still to cast powerful spells, or resort to weaker ones on the move.

Joseph Shareholder doesn't give a damn about the HP of a marine, or the damage algorithm behind a black mage's spell scaling system. Joseph Investor only knows that he has a financial stake in Activision Blizzard, and as a publicly traded corporation, Blizzard's first and foremost priority isn't to provide the best gaming experiences for its fans--but to maximize shareholder value.

As long as blizzard can get away with being a brand name in the RTS/Action RPG/MMO space and milk its legions of fans (because what's a one-time purchase of $60 in order to see new parts of the world of Sanctuary and how the fight against the Prime Evils continues? Even if it's a one-time playthrough, at least it will be memorable for a long time), one of which is myself, it will cut as many corners as possible until sales show there's a slump, perhaps because a new upstart gaming company, privately owned and operated, whose overlord isn't the shareholder but the gamer, comes out with a quality game. At which point blizzard just goes "I see your upstart indy shop and raise you our metric fuckton of cash thrown at developers and marketers", rips off the ideas from the indy company in an expansion and goes "GFG".

Also, in terms of my "disingenuous" EULA, every bit of the EULA is there to be read, understood, and complied with. Do I read them? Never. Why? Because to me, they translate to "play the game legitimately, and you have nothing to be afraid of. Cut corners and screw over our game universe, and we can drop your CD key and say 'thanks for the cash, feel free to try again after you purchase another copy of our game'".

Well, that hasn't stopped gold farming sweatshops. So what will? Hitting them where it hurts: in their pocketbooks.

See, I'm not just someone who enjoys video games. I'm also someone with an engineering degree, a master's degree in statistics, who was one course short of an economics minor and has worked in the financial industry. I have a general intuition about how these kinds of things work and about risk/reward. To gold farmers, the reward far outweighs the risk of getting a CD key or 10 banned. Massive fines levied on credit cards that the gold farmers may not be wanting to take a risk to pay, or may not even be able to--because say I devised an algorithm that could through your character's play and their chat, decide correctly whether it's part of a gold farming operation--so rather than fine you oh, $5 before banning your CD key/account/credit card, I say "well, they're a gold farming operation and can't take legal action against me. I'm going to keep charging that credit card until it's maxed out. And if it has a $100,000 limit, so much the better"...well, odds are, that gold farming operation will probably never ever come within a mile of my game world, which is good for me as a developer because I get to keep my reputation as a developer that creates fun game worlds without the taint of RMT, it's good for the players because they don't have to worry about black marketers ruining the economy, and it's good for me the developer because it pads my bottom line quite considerably.

And the only losers are those who were doing illegal things against my EULA to begin with, so screw them. Oh, and hey, if they're in an overseas nation, then I might as well send a huge thank you note to them for so generously helping my bottom line and covering the salary for one of my developers for an entire year, and laugh all the way to the bank.

Azure Sky:

ElBozo:
Anyway, i think i won't be able to add anything of value to the discussion other then that at least one person (Ilyak1986) sees the core of the issue.
Kudos!

Treating your player base as criminals right off the boat is the fastest way to get an en-mass boycott like you have never seen. Not to mention it probably isn't even legal.

How is it treating your player base as criminals? If I were developing a game, this is what I'd do:

In order to install the game, you have to enter a CD key. Once you enter that key, I'm going to go to my database of CD keys and grep the key you just entered. If I have a 40 character CD key, that's A-Z, a-z, 0-9, which makes for 62 different characters. 62^40 is a ridiculously huge number. To put it into perspective, Avogadro's number--the number to describe how many molecules of something there are if you took that something's atomic mass in grams, is 6.02*10^23. So this number is oh...bigger than that by about 20 orders of magnitude.

Now, after you input your CD key, I check to see that "oh hey, you have a legit game, here's your multiplayer, your offline single player, your LAN, the whole nine". But if you're going to play online, where and only where you get access to special realmwide items, loot, quests, modding packages, etc. etc., then I just need to make sure I can link up your account with a proper credit card number. Simply, this deters cheaters so we can fine them.

This is the same kind of logic that says "oh noes, the patriot act is infringing on our freedoms!", when that's a whole lot of baloney as well. Where are all of the people whose freedoms are being infringed upon? Just act like regular, normal people, and you'll probably forget the patriot act even exists. But oh hey, if you want to try and blow up a building such as the Willis Tower in Chicago, now we can find you, put you behind bars, try you, convict you, drop you into a boiling vat of acid, etc...

It isn't that the playerbase is a bunch of criminals, but that there are criminals out there. And what better way to deter them than to monetize them until their eyes weep blood?

Ilyak1986:

Azure Sky:

ElBozo:
Anyway, i think i won't be able to add anything of value to the discussion other then that at least one person (Ilyak1986) sees the core of the issue.
Kudos!

Treating your player base as criminals right off the boat is the fastest way to get an en-mass boycott like you have never seen. Not to mention it probably isn't even legal.

How is it treating your player base as criminals? If I were developing a game, this is what I'd do:

In order to install the game, you have to enter a CD key. Once you enter that key, I'm going to go to my database of CD keys and grep the key you just entered. If I have a 40 character CD key, that's A-Z, a-z, 0-9, which makes for 62 different characters. 62^40 is a ridiculously huge number. To put it into perspective, Avogadro's number--the number to describe how many molecules of something there are if you took that something's atomic mass in grams, is 6.02*10^23. So this number is oh...bigger than that by about 20 orders of magnitude.

Now, after you input your CD key, I check to see that "oh hey, you have a legit game, here's your multiplayer, your offline single player, your LAN, the whole nine". But if you're going to play online, where and only where you get access to special realmwide items, loot, quests, modding packages, etc. etc., then I just need to make sure I can link up your account with a proper credit card number. Simply, this deters cheaters so we can fine them.

This is the same kind of logic that says "oh noes, the patriot act is infringing on our freedoms!", when that's a whole lot of baloney as well. Where are all of the people whose freedoms are being infringed upon? Just act like regular, normal people, and you'll probably forget the patriot act even exists. But oh hey, if you want to try and blow up a building such as the Willis Tower in Chicago, now we can find you, put you behind bars, try you, convict you, drop you into a boiling vat of acid, etc...

It isn't that the playerbase is a bunch of criminals, but that there are criminals out there. And what better way to deter them than to monetize them until their eyes weep blood?

See:UBIsoft

fundayz:

You couldn't be any more mistaken. The P2P players aren't getting things faster, they are getting them instantly and without ANY in-game effort.

Selling power is not just having access to more content, although that is sometimes ONE way to buy power.

Power is ANYTHING that gives you a direct in-game advantage. Buying items, gold and characters (i.e. all the things that will be traded on Diablo 3's RMAH) is the most basic way of buying power. It doesn't matter if everyone has the same potential power level, the fact is that someone can use out-of-game resources to instantly and effortlessly improve their combat performance.

This is NOT convenience. Convenience is things like extra inventory room, extra bank room, more character slots, etc; These things do not directly improve a player's combat performance. Items, gold and pre-made characters do give a direct combat advantage.

An example might make it easier to see why Diablo 3's RMAH is EXACTLY selling power:

Player A and Player B both start playing on the same day. They both have the same amount of skill and time available to play.

After a week of playing, both players have the same level, stats and their armours are of equivalent quality. For all intents and purposes these two players are equivalent.

At this point Player B hops on the RMAH and uses real world currency to buy a full set of high quality gear, expensive runes and gems, and a large chunk of gold to boot for things like repairs and the like.

Player B now has better stats and skills than Player A, making him more powerful for the sole reason of having spent real world money.

Then I guess I respectfully disagree. Given enough time, Player A can reach power parity with Player B, despite Player B having spent cash in the AH. All the AH does is allow Player B to bypass the grinding to reach that point. Player B does not gain any statistical benefit for reaching that point faster, and if Player A so desires, he can grind it out and eventually attain the same gear that Player B bought and have the same, exact stats and skills as Player B.

Azure Sky:

Ilyak1986:

Azure Sky:

Treating your player base as criminals right off the boat is the fastest way to get an en-mass boycott like you have never seen. Not to mention it probably isn't even legal.

How is it treating your player base as criminals? If I were developing a game, this is what I'd do:

In order to install the game, you have to enter a CD key. Once you enter that key, I'm going to go to my database of CD keys and grep the key you just entered. If I have a 40 character CD key, that's A-Z, a-z, 0-9, which makes for 62 different characters. 62^40 is a ridiculously huge number. To put it into perspective, Avogadro's number--the number to describe how many molecules of something there are if you took that something's atomic mass in grams, is 6.02*10^23. So this number is oh...bigger than that by about 20 orders of magnitude.

Now, after you input your CD key, I check to see that "oh hey, you have a legit game, here's your multiplayer, your offline single player, your LAN, the whole nine". But if you're going to play online, where and only where you get access to special realmwide items, loot, quests, modding packages, etc. etc., then I just need to make sure I can link up your account with a proper credit card number. Simply, this deters cheaters so we can fine them.

This is the same kind of logic that says "oh noes, the patriot act is infringing on our freedoms!", when that's a whole lot of baloney as well. Where are all of the people whose freedoms are being infringed upon? Just act like regular, normal people, and you'll probably forget the patriot act even exists. But oh hey, if you want to try and blow up a building such as the Willis Tower in Chicago, now we can find you, put you behind bars, try you, convict you, drop you into a boiling vat of acid, etc...

It isn't that the playerbase is a bunch of criminals, but that there are criminals out there. And what better way to deter them than to monetize them until their eyes weep blood?

See:UBIsoft

Elaborate.

Ilyak1986:

Azure Sky:

See:UBIsoft

Elaborate.

Well, I cbf finding all the material for the same reason I dislike the idea. Lack of Care.

From memory though UBIsoft tried something a little while ago, twas slightly different but the outcome was similar.

Lets face it, what you are describing is a really malicious form of DRM.

Why would I be spending my money on virtual armor when I could be spending it on virtual hats? Or real hats? Or, for that matter, real armor?

captainwalrus:

Then I guess I respectfully disagree. Given enough time, Player A can reach power parity with Player B, despite Player B having spent cash in the AH. All the AH does is allow Player B to bypass the grinding to reach that point. Player B does not gain any statistical benefit for reaching that point faster, and if Player A so desires, he can grind it out and eventually attain the same gear that Player B bought and have the same, exact stats and skills as Player B.

You are looking at the wrong thing. You focus on potential power when you need to be looking at actual power.

Do you believe that it is fair for Player B to use real currency to buy an advantage that will help him advance through the game faster and more easily than Player A, even though they are equal in skill and time played?

Do you believe that it is fair for Player A to be at a statistical disadvantage for the entire time that it takes him to catch up to Player B?

How do you expect Player A to catch up to Player B when Player B has already obtained a statistical advantage (remember that they are equal in skill and play time)?

In the case that Player A does inexplicably catch up to Player B, what is stopping Player B from simply purchasing better items and more gold once again?

As you can see, a paying player will always have an advantage over a non-paying player even if everything else is equal between them.

P.S. We haven't even factored in the havoc that RMT companies will wreck on the GAH and RMAH.

Azure Sky:

Ilyak1986:

Azure Sky:

See:UBIsoft

Elaborate.

Well, I cbf finding all the material for the same reason I dislike the idea. Lack of Care.

From memory though UBIsoft tried something a little while ago, twas slightly different but the outcome was similar.

Lets face it, what you are describing is a really malicious form of DRM.

Actually, my stance on DRM is this: there obviously needs to be a little bit in order to prevent day zero piracy. But the way you build brand loyalty with consumers isn't to treat them like criminals, and give them a quick one-and-done DRM access. Encrypt all the code so as to slow down cracks, have the users log on once and say "yeah this is my code, my game is legit, this is proof I gave you my one day's worth of work for a game I'll enjoy for several years", and wham, the game world is theirs to play legitimately in.

And in fact, for an added bonus, I might even say "since I'm such a nice guy, I'll let you create two other accounts for your brothers/best friends, so as to not require 2 separate keys to allow a family to play together, with the restriction that the IP must be near identical on log on.

But, if you try to create a black market, that's not DRM. That's not piracy prevention or whatnot. That's prevention of out-and-out asshattery that gives no damn about the world in which the rest of the players play. Clearly, when it comes to Chinese gold farming, a CD key ban is no deterrent, when after their costs, they can just make another account, grind a toon up to 80 in two days (seriously, I started Friday evening and now have a level 84 sorc with full Tal Rasha's set, 45% wartravs, 27% FCR spirit, a couple of ist runes, and am just looking to replace a 28 MF nagelring with a 10% FCR ring with some fire and poison resists. I have a full inventory of all sorts of stuff I'm looking to trade away, 26 pgems, and so on).

If an outfit is out to profiteer off of a persistent game world, whether an MMO or hack and slash, banning CD keys will do little to deter them.

So, more drastic action needs to be taken.

So, how do we take advantage of the fact that these operations are primarily overseas? Gouge them economically. Because put it this way: Americans value their time. They live in a first-world nation. They have better jobs to do than to grind for items to sell for next to nothing on the black market. After all, a guy my age, if he has enough technical talent to program a D2 bot (or even how to set one up) can find a much better paying job.

Chinese kids? Not so much.

So, what do we do?

EULA: Dear Chinese gold farmers and all you other people who like to create black markets: try us. We'll find out about your activities so fast, and when we do, we'll gouge you so hard in the pocketbook that you wish you would never have messed with us! Now bring it on.

Ilyak1986:

Azure Sky:

Ilyak1986:

Elaborate.

Well, I cbf finding all the material for the same reason I dislike the idea. Lack of Care.

From memory though UBIsoft tried something a little while ago, twas slightly different but the outcome was similar.

Lets face it, what you are describing is a really malicious form of DRM.

Actually, my stance on DRM is this: there obviously needs to be a little bit in order to prevent day zero piracy. But the way you build brand loyalty with consumers isn't to treat them like criminals, and give them a quick one-and-done DRM access. Encrypt all the code so as to slow down cracks, have the users log on once and say "yeah this is my code, my game is legit, this is proof I gave you my one day's worth of work for a game I'll enjoy for several years", and wham, the game world is theirs to play legitimately in.

And in fact, for an added bonus, I might even say "since I'm such a nice guy, I'll let you create two other accounts for your brothers/best friends, so as to not require 2 separate keys to allow a family to play together, with the restriction that the IP must be near identical on log on.

But, if you try to create a black market, that's not DRM. That's not piracy prevention or whatnot. That's prevention of out-and-out asshattery that gives no damn about the world in which the rest of the players play. Clearly, when it comes to Chinese gold farming, a CD key ban is no deterrent, when after their costs, they can just make another account, grind a toon up to 80 in two days (seriously, I started Friday evening and now have a level 84 sorc with full Tal Rasha's set, 45% wartravs, 27% FCR spirit, a couple of ist runes, and am just looking to replace a 28 MF nagelring with a 10% FCR ring with some fire and poison resists. I have a full inventory of all sorts of stuff I'm looking to trade away, 26 pgems, and so on).

If an outfit is out to profiteer off of a persistent game world, whether an MMO or hack and slash, banning CD keys will do little to deter them.

So, more drastic action needs to be taken.

So, how do we take advantage of the fact that these operations are primarily overseas? Gouge them economically. Because put it this way: Americans value their time. They live in a first-world nation. They have better jobs to do than to grind for items to sell for next to nothing on the black market. After all, a guy my age, if he has enough technical talent to program a D2 bot (or even how to set one up) can find a much better paying job.

Chinese kids? Not so much.

So, what do we do?

EULA: Dear Chinese gold farmers and all you other people who like to create black markets: try us. We'll find out about your activities so fast, and when we do, we'll gouge you so hard in the pocketbook that you wish you would never have messed with us! Now bring it on.

Funny thing is, If D3's AH turns out the way I suspect it will, it will force those RMTers to be nothing more than a company of people that play the game for the sole reason to cash out at the AH. Which is probably going to be an autostabilizer to the economy, not to mention they won't be breaking the EULA unless they bot.

Here's to hoping that they give Warden 2.0 an upgrade.

Ilyak1986:

EULA: Dear Chinese gold farmers and all you other people who like to create black markets: try us. We'll find out about your activities so fast, and when we do, we'll gouge you so hard in the pocketbook that you wish you would never have messed with us! Now bring it on.

You realize that gold/item farmers usually use stolen credit cards and accounts for that exact reason right?

You would just be charging random people who had their CC/account stolen. This makes your charge an unauthorized transaction that WILL be reversed by credit card companies.

Welcome to the real world. Things aren't that simple.

Azure Sky:
Funny thing is, If D3's AH turns out the way I suspect it will, it will force those RMTers to be nothing more than a company of people that play the game for the sole reason to cash out at the AH. Which is probably going to be an autostabilizer to the economy, not to mention they won't be breaking the EULA unless they bot.

Here's to hoping that they give Warden 2.0 an upgrade.

RMT companies are ALREADY nothing but groups of people that play game for the sole reason of cashing out. The only difference is that it will now be EASIER for them to do as the game gives them a wider customer base and legitimate ways of doing it.

I don't understand what makes you think that this will auto-stabilize the economy. Regular players will NOT be able to compete against the prices set by gold/item farming groups.

I dont see how this changes ANYTHING at all.. RMT is/was/and will always exist. You nay-sayers seem to forget that you have NEVER played a multiplayer RPG game that didnt have players who RMT'd .. your ideal game-world is IMPOSSIBLE. As long as two human beings can give each other money and can at the same time somehow give each other items in game .. there is GOING to be RMT. Deal with it.

At least this way people arent making money out of blizzard without them getting something in return.

At least this way there will be a significant reduction in the amount of people getting scammed and crying to blizzard about how their accs/items/money has been stolen.

At least this way it gives US - the gamers a way of competing AGAINST the chinese gold farmers by allowing is to sell off our possibly $100 epic unique items or what ever.

I'm almost unable to believe anyone thinks this won't go over perfectly.

I mean, I can think of tons of terrible apocalypse theories, but I'm not silly enough to think they'll actually happen.

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