The R Word

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I almost never comment on this kind of thread, but I'd like to leave my own comment here.

First of all, thank you to the author for making this. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult writing this article must have been. I can also appreciate how much effort you absolutely had to put into writing it, into "muscling through it", simply because of the sheer importance of the topic at hand.

I would like to leave it really clear that I honestly respect and understand (as much as anyone that hasn't been through such a situation can, of course) your point. I will, however, respectfully disagree, in a sense.

Now, I'm not questioning that rape is a truly horrible, life scarring, experience. Neither am I qualified to question it's "impact" as a trauma, I've never experienced it, and seeing as I work in the field of psychology, I'm well aware of it's nefarious effects long into a person's life. What I want to say is that rape is not the only traumatic, life scarring, experience being portrayed, or even "trivialized", in videogames.

I personally know, and am quite close, to someone who has suffered such an experience. Through absolutely no fault of their own (couldn't possibly have been, they were stopped in traffic at the time) this person's car was rammed by a drunkard in an 18 wheeler speeding down the wrong lane. His wife and daughter died instantly. He survived by sheer near-impossible odds. He nearly spent the rest of his life quadriplegic. It's been quite a few years since (I was very young back then, never really "appreciated" the tragedy of the situation till many years later). I'm not trying to "compare" tragedies, it's impossible to compare such a thing. My point is that you can see how such an event would share a lot of similarities in the sense that it is horrible, impossible to fully understand unless you go through it, something that could happen again at any time, and something that you never really "get over" - a permanent scar, if you will.

I know someone else who is incredibly, absolutely dysfunctionally, afraid of ringing telephones. This person didn't exactly have a nice and easy upbringing, as you can guess, and now they are horribly afraid of ringing telephones. They literally had panic attacks when a phone rang near them. In an age where everyone has a cellular phone with them wherever, whenever, you can understand how this poses an issue.

Some people go to war and see and experience things we can't even begin to understand. Someone else I know described to me the experience of nearly losing your own life in an ambush in war. Of losing people you cared for in rather horrible ways, like landmines. None of it is nice, regardless of how heroic hollywood paints it to be. I've seen what it does to people.

And, of course, nobody talks about death because... That's kind of a one way deal. Self-keeping secret, if you will.

Again, my point is not to compare traumas. It would be ridiculous and arrogant beyond belief to do so, as you can understand. One does not simply "measure" a trauma. My point is that, unfortunately, a lot of people go through things most of us are fortunate enough to never even have nightmares with. These people carry these scars, and it sucks. It really does, I can certainly understand that, as I can understand you wouldn't want this kind of imagery sprung up on you unexpectedly during a commercial. I couldn't possibly respect that more.

What I have a problem with is one kind of horrible experience being somehow "above" the others. Look at any game topping the charts right now. Hell, look at the last 5 or 10 games you've played. How many revolve around killing people? Or simply allow you to kill people "for fun"? I'd be very surprised if you said anything less than half. Yet no one bats an eye when you pick up a katana and behead someone in GTA. It's common place for games. Yet, I bet the person above who nearly lost their own head the same way wouldn't find it very enjoyable, would they? The guy who lost his wife and daughter in such a... indescribably horrible accident most likely won't enjoy GTA or Burnout very much. At least not the same way most of us do.

My point is that we routinely "trivialize" things that are traumatic for a lot of people. We do it because, to those of us who didn't experience these things, they are fun. They are. War looks much more fun to those who've never suffered with it. So, if want to consider rape "untouchable" by games (and by extension other forms of media), then the same courtesy must the extended to every other potentially traumatic topic games already cover. And if you're not willing to do that, then we can't single out one type of atrocity and say "this one's out of limits... everything else is ok!".

So, my bottom line is that, yes, I agree that public advertisement shouldn't contain that kind of content and that people are often quite ignorant about rape (or about most things, to be quite fair). We still live in a rather shitty society where frat boys secretly (or not so secretly) glorify rape. But a game shouldn't be forbidden, or particularly attacked, for including rape any more than any other dev is attacked for including the ability to kill and/or maim others. If "RapeLay" is to be criticized for approaching such a serious topic the way it did, then what should be said of titles like Call of Duty, or Prototype, or any of the myriad of games out right now that not only permit, but in fact glorify, horrible, cold blooded murder for fun?

For example, take the game that seemed to recently spark this issue again: The most recent Tomb Raider. Regardless of how tasteless one could consider the trailer, the "rape" (that best I can tell never happens) actually lends authenticity to the scene, at least as far as we can see. Picture rude, crude, rather "amoral" gunmen in a lawless jungle. Picture them coming across a wounded young Lara... Can you honestly say that, in the world we live in, this would be an unreasonable scenario? Or, in fact, that this wouldn't be extremely likely? If so, why should this get any difference in attention than any other time you sneak behind a soldier doing his job and slit their throat without a second thought? Or when people play "pretend death dealing soldiers" in virtual "proxy-wars" to real events, with real people, happening right now, to see who gets the highest score?

TAdamson:

wizzy555:

TAdamson:

But you don't go walking around telling people that you are going to "murder" them or tell jokes about murder either.

Englishman,Irishman & Scotsman in France are sentenced to death by guillotine. The Englisman puts his head on the block 1st & the executioner pulls the lever, but the blade doesn't fall. The governor says ' If this happens 3 times then by French law you walk free'. The lever is pulled twice more & still the blade doesn't fall so he was set free. The same thing happens when the Scotsman had his head on the block & he was set free. Paddy puts his head on the block, the lever is pulled , again the blade doesn't fall. Then Paddy turns round so the back of his head's on the block. The lever's pulled & the blade doesn't budge. 'Aha!!' says Paddy 'hold on! I can see what the problem is!'

Very funny.

My point was that people don't go on XBox live and tell their opponents that they are "going to murder them" or that they have "murdered them".

Your husband's out drinking again on a weekday? When he gets home I'll kill him.

Yes, it's not an uncommon turn of phrase.

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

Ramzal:

I agree with Iron Lightning. Part of growing up is to take all of these things that happen to you and grow past them. Bad things happen. We have to accept them and move on. Even more, I have to ask everyone something. Stop having pity for us or anyone who has gone through this. Yes, it is terrible to happen. But we do not deserve any special treatment for the short comings in our lives. People are strong to move past this. Allow us to without thinking we are broken, or that we will suffer forever.

Mahatma Gandhi once said that: "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." People cannot build that will when they are given special treatment, or pity, or feel that we need to be picked up or even understood -just- because something happened to us. If you think about it, the average person looks at someone who has been raped like a broken mirror, that with enough tender love and care, it can be fixed. That's just not true. And in treating people who have been raped as such, you are not doing them a favor. But rather an injustice.

I do not expect free money to come to me because I am of african american blood and my ancestors were treated harshly. I expect to work for my money and rewards. I do not ask for free money for college because I am 1/16th native american and some have had their land stolen. And I do not ask to be treated like a hero because I have been to war, fought, and nearly died for whatever purpose it truly may have been, I simply ask to be treated like you--yourself would wish to be treated. Without exception, with fairness, and goodwill.

I, and many like myself are strong enough to move past the dark parts in our lives and see the light. (And no, that is not a religious statement) But people must allow others--like the Author of the article--to move past this, rather than bellow in his misery.

Rape is a word. That is all it is. Just like many other words that are hateful like a word that starts with "N". Or "S." Any you can think of. It's the action, not the word that we should be against.

I think I should make myself clear. Not everyone deals with trauma the same. Some people, Like you and Iron lightning, are able to turn yourselves into gruff survivalists who turn their horrible experiences into things they can grow from. and good on you for doing that. HOWEVER, what is good for the goose is not good for the Gander, and how you have dealt with you're trauma and past experience's is not how the author will deal with it. Gandhi said a lot of thing's, but Gandhi was never raped by another man. neither was I, and neither were you (I assume and hope) so we can't judge him for dealing with his trauma in his own way.

It's not about becoming a "gruff survivalist" It's about growing. Bad things happen in life, every day. And not enough dry heaving over toilets, or people saying "I'm so sorry" can fix that. It is up the individual. Do you wish to know why I find the author a coward? What he is typing is an attempt for attention. He is literally living -in- his poor history rather living his life. I've had more than enough drunk nights on my couch as I wake up to an angry wife in the morning to finally realize the difference.

Honestly, any short comings in my life are just that. Short comings. I've taken being raped at a young age by my own father as nothing more than a bone that was broken. It hurt for awhile, but it healed with time. I found that the more people who told me "I am so sorry that happened to you.." or "You must be going through such a terrible time..." or my favorite "It's not your fault." I found myself sinking -deeper- into the depression of the event because those statements -make- you feel like you were a victim.

Me and Iron are not a rare type of people this happens to. We're just people who decided that enough is enough. I know plenty of other people that this has happened to. Those extremely close to me as well, women and men alike. And for the majority the women I know have taken it much better than I thought. Two in which shrugged when I brought up this subject and said "People need to put their big girl panties on and learn to suck it up. Bad stuff happens to everyone."

These people live their lives without triggers, frequent nightmares or crying fits/gaining weight. That in itself is strength. True strength. Weakness in yourself calls for attention like the Author does. Things happen. But what truly---TRULY upsets me is the fact that the Author is in a position that he is speaking for -everyone- who has gone through this or that all of us---even a majority of us react from being raped as he does. Which is simply not true.

You want to know what the real monstrosity of rape comes from? The people who are killed before, during or after the fact. They never had a CHANCE to get stronger, or move past it because that chance was stolen from them. And it happens all over the world, Africa, Korea, Europe, even in the United States does this occur. But you want to feel sorry for someone who is still alive and has a chance to move past this issue when there are people who were killed just so they could be -easier- to rape?

I know exactly what the Author has been through. But I have no sympathy for him. Or care. How he deals with that issue now is my greatest nightmare for anything that has ever traumatized me, to lay battered, beaten and DEFEATED by something that is not physical anymore but rather as loose, and hanging there like a dream--the past. To live is to acknowledge the past, live in the present to build for the future.

His reaction and explanations come from nothing but the kind of person who has been traumatized but chooses to have it hold him back. He is strong enough to move past it. He is. Anyone is, but this is not subject of "Everyone deals about it differently" but rather him not dealing with it at all. I've needed no pills, some sessions with a therapist when I was younger, and no pity to get past it. It's a matter of seeing what happened to you before as the past and not allow it to define you.

The author has chosen for it to define him. I will not. Now do you wish to lecture me again on the subject of how to deal with being raped by a man (My own father no less), when I have already stated that I have been previously? I do not need your assumptions or your hope as it has already happened. And honestly...so what that it has.

Hey guys, let me just say a few things:

I understand why you were upset by my article, I really do. If I had read this article two years ago I'd be right there with you, completely outraged, completely pissed off. How dare this guy make people think all of us are delicate porcelain dolls like him? How dare he just sit there, being a victim? And most of all, where the fuck does he get off speaking for everyone? (This, by the way, is why I started the article saying "I only speak for myself here.")

After all, I had gotten over it, why couldn't they?

The problem was, I hadn't gotten over it. I'd had five years where I was almost entirely symptom-free, or at least free from the most obvious symptoms like flashbacks and intrusive thoughts. That was due to my being in a less stressful living environment where I was able to more easily bury my past. Looking back, I can now see that though I thought I didn't have symptoms, this was actually the time when I was most effectively self-medicating with alcohol and when my dating problems were at their worst. It wasn't gone, it was just dormant, and growing. The problem with this kind of trauma is that it's like a vermin infestation -- the longer you pretend it doesn't exist the worse it gets.

That period ended when I took a new job that was much more stressful. Gradually my symptoms of depression increased, and my self-medication with alcohol went on the upswing. This was the worst period for me, and though I didn't understand what was happening until afterward, I was just about to take the first big drop on the roller coaster of depression.

It was during this time when I would become the most angry and defensive about this type of article. The point when I was the most convinced that I was getting along fine and that the people writing these things just had to toughen up and face the world. You're a rape victim? Oh boo hoo, so am I. I never needed therapy or told my story on the Internet. What did these people want, attention?

In retrospect, it was obvious how deeply in denial I was. The reason these articles made me so angry and upset was because they were showing vulnerability, and I'd been taught that the only way to live with myself was not not have that vulnerability. Without realizing it I was still dancing to the rapist's tune: "Forget this happened. Don't talk about it. Don't tell people about it. Don't even think about it." I had learned that the best way to deal with it was to disconnect my emotions from it and soldier on -- and yeah, that can be useful sometimes in the short term. Sometimes you need to do that to get through the day, or get through the week. I get that, I've been there. That's a part of emotional control. But eventually, you realize you're using it to get through life, and that's not healthy.

I'm going to tell you something that sucks a lot, and you're probably not going to believe me: to process the emotions you're actually going to have to feel them. I tell you that because when I got the most angry about articles like this one was right before I had my worst episode of depression. I was trying to pack down the feelings and I was failing. I'd ignored them for too long and they were finally boiling over.

So here's the deal: I'm not saying that you aren't over it, but in my personal experience when I thought I was over it was when things were just about to get really bad. When I thought I was thinking, "I don't want to be like that guy," I was actually thinking, "I don't want to feel things like that guy."

Just know that your extremely strong reaction may mean that you're not as "over it" as you think you are. When you look back on an experience like that and don't have any emotion or only have a faint feeling of emotion, it's likely that you're undergoing emotional numbing, which is a symptom of depression. The good news is that I've gotten a lot better since I started confronting what happened to me, but a lot of that has come from being more open to my emotions and being more vulnerable - and yeah, sometimes that means feeling sad. Feeling sad about something like this is normal, feeling bulletproof is not.

Well, that's how it's done.

So long as there is no suggestion of ever limiting the right to freedom of expression, to outlaw any fictional material which deal with this or any other topic in whatever way, then it's hard to disagree that showing consideration towards others is a good thing.

However, it must always be stressed that if people don't want to do so, such is their right. Sure, if you're an Iraqi who fled Iraq during the Gulf War, then watching lines upon lines of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare on the shelves might not be all that cool for you. Quite understandable for someone who've been in the actual conflicts area it's based on.

But if there is a market for it, with tons of people wanting to play it, then you've got no right to interfere. By all means tell them how traumatic experiencing actual Modern Warfare was for you, and thus how the game's very premise, and the competitively cavalier attitude towards the slaughter shown by the players, is discomforting to you. Or go to the local gun shop and tell them how the sight of firearms makes you queasy, and how you'd really like for it to stop selling guns.

Whether either of them will listen is ultimately their choice though, not yours.

Anything I could say would be insufficient. I can't understand how hard this is for you. Reading what you wrote made me numb.

Thank you for doing this. You deserve to be happy, so I pray that you find all the happiness in life that you can. Again, thank you.

Best article I've read in a long time. Moving and thought-provoking. I'll certainly make a whole hearted effort to never use the word again in a casual context.

Anonymous:
snip

I must say, congratulations on having the bravery to face your fears and try to.... accept them. I'm not sure that's the right word or way to say it, but I hope my meaning comes across, as I know that it can be very insulting to have someone to tell you to get past it or whatever. I also must say, it must have taken just as much courage to read these comments as it did to write this article, I haven't read all of them, but I have seen a few cruel ones, and this is the internet, so I would expect more. Ramzal mentioned the need for an indomitable will, and to be able to read these comments knowing the internet, you must have it.

With all due respect to the OP I am going to retain my right to freely use and deal with having to hear people use words like rape, retard, nigger and many other swear words and racial epithets be it playing a game, walking around town, or having a discussion on a forum. Yes there is a huge difference between simply using the word rape and actually saying that even when the physical impossibility of the actual consequence of rape over the internet saying the words "I will rape you".

The real big thing is that everyone has problems. Yes, some are bigger than others but it is how we deal with them and learn to live with it. Also, I consider it quite ironic that despite growing up being told to share and vent our feelings I see more video game companies actually punish players and actually encourage bottling up feelings even if they are using their words. A good example of this is Riot Games and their IP League of Legends. Now, don't get me wrong it is a good game but the actual method to try and make what the writer of this article is recommending can actually prove to be counter productive.

There are a lot of players that get their accounts banned because they aren't allowed to do exactly what every counselor recommends, better to vent your feelings using your words in small doses as how we vent out stress does become habit forming. So having a bad game or bad experience I find nothing wrong with throwing a swear word out there but too much swearing in the game does actually get you banned. In essence players are actually being taught to bottle up their negative emotions or at the very least being prevented from releasing those negative emotions in small doses that really doesn't cause any actual harm to players. Especially when you consider that it is a two way street, we should be able to acknowledge people as people and that means for better or worse having to deal with someone who is a bit negative. Cause when you start to believe that everyone can always maintain a positive attitude 100% of the time then you are the person that doesn't truly realize how good you have it.

I mean I used to take out my anger through physical action which was habit forming but then being able to play multi player games and being able to vent that frustration helped a lot. I'm a lot less angry and can now actually demonstrate my feelings using my words and honestly there is nothing wrong with using harsh language short of clear cut threats such as death threats to which if it really does bother you as a person then by virtue of actually sitting down and understanding your rights as a consumer of video games know that in most if not all EULA and TOS there is a ban clause if said user is found to be making clear cut death threats and racist language at a person. So if you really think it is a problem then it is up to YOU to actually take action but be warned that I personally do not tolerate people who make baseless accusations and do not perform due diligence and abuse the system. Make the report and have the evidence and only submit the report if you truly feel that you are at risk. Cause like before it is VERY easy to abuse the system.

Also I have some personal trauma of my own, I got hit by a van crossing the street going 40 MPH that decided to not stop at a stop sign. It was also a hit and run. I also still deal with random pains in my left arm now that it has a metal plate inside and can't grow much muscle. In short I should of been dead. Do I get paralyzed when I see a car when I cross the street or when I read a threat like "I'm gonna run you over with my car"? No. I didn't need any medication or counseling either. I became more aware of the risks and take the necessary precautions and know what tools are available to me to use should I feel that I am being threatened.

So yeah that's my thoughts on the matter, I understand that it can be quite traumatic but the end of the article really gets my goat here because it is honestly trying to control people's behavior to accommodate those that are in unfortunate circumstances. Because when you prevent what could possibly be their only output to vent their negative feelings you can actually have an effect on how their habits of venting their negativity change. Okay you got a guy who vents his negativity playing an online game, so now your feelings are secured but now that guy has to find a new way to vent from his stressful life that you know nothing about and could all of a sudden take it out physically. What it honestly reeks to me is greed. Greed that you would rather instead of actually helping yourself decide to change how everyone else acts and forcing everyone online to find new ways to deal with their negativity.

You have to learn to actually deal with the problem and actually create your own environment that supports the way you want to play. You like a game so much? Get a dedicated server and start a clan or get some friends together that are willing to not use the words that affect you. That way you are in charge. It's called taking care of your own backyard.

Cause I see all these people who just like to complain but not actually do crap about it in their own lives. So the Tropes vs Woman youtuber is so worried about misogynistic behavior by a Bayonetta ad that she says she wants female only transportation. Then why hasn't she actually gotten her local government in San Francisco to actually do anything about it? You have to be willing to take action to solve what you think is the problem and these problems should focus what is going on in your local area. Have you thought of actually trying to improve the conditions in the area where you were raped? OR have you taken action in fundraising your local police department so that they can create a dedicated response team and program that deals with rape?

Cause preventing me from venting my frustration and not using swear words or other colorful language that is completely acceptable in my local community just so people can accommodate you only creates more problems instead of fixing the actual problem. You wanna be an activist? Take actual action. Make those dedicated servers, make that clan and get noticed. Don't try to force everyone to change just to accommodate you, but make an environment that people want to be a part of so you don't have to deal with the people you don't want to hang around with. Cause I honestly doubt that you will try and rectify other people's behavior when you hear them walking down the street talking about rape. What makes you think you should be able to control their rights online?

Anonymous:

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

I think I should make myself clear. Not everyone deals with trauma the same. Some people, Like you and Iron lightning, are able to turn yourselves into gruff survivalists who turn their horrible experiences into things they can grow from. and good on you for doing that. HOWEVER, what is good for the goose is not good for the Gander, and how you have dealt with you're trauma and past experience's is not how the author will deal with it. Gandhi said a lot of thing's, but Gandhi was never raped by another man. neither was I, and neither were you (I assume and hope) so we can't judge him for dealing with his trauma in his own way.

It's not about becoming a "gruff survivalist" It's about growing. Bad things happen in life, every day. And not enough dry heaving over toilets, or people saying "I'm so sorry" can fix that. It is up the individual. Do you wish to know why I find the author a coward? What he is typing is an attempt for attention. He is literally living -in- his poor history rather living his life. I've had more than enough drunk nights on my couch as I wake up to an angry wife in the morning to finally realize the difference.

Honestly, any short comings in my life are just that. Short comings. I've taken being raped at a young age by my own father as nothing more than a bone that was broken. It hurt for awhile, but it healed with time. I found that the more people who told me "I am so sorry that happened to you.." or "You must be going through such a terrible time..." or my favorite "It's not your fault." I found myself sinking -deeper- into the depression of the event because those statements -make- you feel like you were a victim.

Me and Iron are not a rare type of people this happens to. We're just people who decided that enough is enough. I know plenty of other people that this has happened to. Those extremely close to me as well, women and men alike. And for the majority the women I know have taken it much better than I thought. Two in which shrugged when I brought up this subject and said "People need to put their big girl panties on and learn to suck it up. Bad stuff happens to everyone."

These people live their lives without triggers, frequent nightmares or crying fits/gaining weight. That in itself is strength. True strength. Weakness in yourself calls for attention like the Author does. Things happen. But what truly---TRULY upsets me is the fact that the Author is in a position that he is speaking for -everyone- who has gone through this or that all of us---even a majority of us react from being raped as he does. Which is simply not true.

You want to know what the real monstrosity of rape comes from? The people who are killed before, during or after the fact. They never had a CHANCE to get stronger, or move past it because that chance was stolen from them. And it happens all over the world, Africa, Korea, Europe, even in the United States does this occur. But you want to feel sorry for someone who is still alive and has a chance to move past this issue when there are people who were killed just so they could be -easier- to rape?

I know exactly what the Author has been through. But I have no sympathy for him. Or care. How he deals with that issue now is my greatest nightmare for anything that has ever traumatized me, to lay battered, beaten and DEFEATED by something that is not physical anymore but rather as loose, and hanging there like a dream--the past. To live is to acknowledge the past, live in the present to build for the future.

His reaction and explanations come from nothing but the kind of person who has been traumatized but chooses to have it hold him back. He is strong enough to move past it. He is. Anyone is, but this is not subject of "Everyone deals about it differently" but rather him not dealing with it at all. I've needed no pills, some sessions with a therapist when I was younger, and no pity to get past it. It's a matter of seeing what happened to you before as the past and not allow it to define you.

The author has chosen for it to define him. I will not. Now do you wish to lecture me again on the subject of how to deal with being raped by a man (My own father no less), when I have already stated that I have been previously? I do not need your assumptions or your hope as it has already happened. And honestly...so what that it has.

Hey guys, let me just say a few things:

I understand why you were upset by my article, I really do. If I had read this article two years ago I'd be right there with you, completely outraged, completely pissed off. How dare this guy make people think all of us are delicate porcelain dolls like him? How dare he just sit there, being a victim? And most of all, where the fuck does he get off speaking for everyone? (This, by the way, is why I started the article saying "I only speak for myself here.")

After all, I had gotten over it, why couldn't they?

The problem was, I hadn't gotten over it. I'd had five years where I was almost entirely symptom-free, or at least free from the most obvious symptoms like flashbacks and intrusive thoughts. That was due to my being in a less stressful living environment where I was able to more easily bury my past. Looking back, I can now see that though I thought I didn't have symptoms, this was actually the time when I was most effectively self-medicating with alcohol and when my dating problems were at their worst. It wasn't gone, it was just dormant, and growing. The problem with this kind of trauma is that it's like a vermin infestation -- the longer you pretend it doesn't exist the worse it gets.

That period ended when I took a new job that was much more stressful. Gradually my symptoms of depression increased, and my self-medication with alcohol went on the upswing. This was the worst period for me, and though I didn't understand what was happening until afterward, I was just about to take the first big drop on the roller coaster of depression.

It was during this time when I would become the most angry and defensive about this type of article. The point when I was the most convinced that I was getting along fine and that the people writing these things just had to toughen up and face the world. You're a rape victim? Oh boo hoo, so am I. I never needed therapy or told my story on the Internet. What did these people want, attention?

In retrospect, it was obvious how deeply in denial I was. The reason these articles made me so angry and upset was because they were showing vulnerability, and I'd been taught that the only way to live with myself was not not have that vulnerability. Without realizing it I was still dancing to the rapist's tune: "Forget this happened. Don't talk about it. Don't tell people about it. Don't even think about it." I had learned that the best way to deal with it was to disconnect my emotions from it and soldier on -- and yeah, that can be useful sometimes in the short term. Sometimes you need to do that to get through the day, or get through the week. I get that, I've been there. That's a part of emotional control. But eventually, you realize you're using it to get through life, and that's not healthy.

I'm going to tell you something that sucks a lot, and you're probably not going to believe me: to process the emotions you're actually going to have to feel them. I tell you that because when I got the most angry about articles like this one was right before I had my worst episode of depression. I was trying to pack down the feelings and I was failing. I'd ignored them for too long and they were finally boiling over.

So here's the deal: I'm not saying that you aren't over it, but in my personal experience when I thought I was over it was when things were just about to get really bad. When I thought I was thinking, "I don't want to be like that guy," I was actually thinking, "I don't want to feel things like that guy."

Just know that your extremely strong reaction may mean that you're not as "over it" as you think you are. When you look back on an experience like that and don't have any emotion or only have a faint feeling of emotion, it's likely that you're undergoing emotional numbing, which is a symptom of depression. The good news is that I've gotten a lot better since I started confronting what happened to me, but a lot of that has come from being more open to my emotions and being more vulnerable - and yeah, sometimes that means feeling sad. Feeling sad about something like this is normal, feeling bulletproof is not.

Nope, I'm actually quite fine, thank you. I'm content with the fact that my father is on his third stroke, I can laugh at rape jokes on tv, or make one myself, or even sit with friends if we talk about the crap things that happened to us and I can explain what happened without lapsing. Emotional numbness, no. It bugs me in the sense that it's like a nudge on the head at this point but I don't make the buggie man any bigger than he needs to be.

You need to think about how the message came across. It won't simply be taken as -your- experience, but rather how everyone sees whoever has even been through it. My extremely strong reaction comes from peoples needs to level with you even though they have no idea what it's like or even defend you if someone else doesn't agree with your outlook on it. It ends up leaving no room for critical thought, but rather a debate about emotion. It can easily devalue the opinion of someone who hasn't been raped who doesn't agree with you by someone cutting in and stating "Well YOU don't know what it's like!" If you noticed, someone just tried that on me despite knowing what it's like.

Honestly, the fact that I can move past these things may boggle you or make you think I am emotional numb. But that's not the fact. I can accept things that have happened and move on from it. However, what I do react easily to is opinions that tend to only be on one side of the fence because something bad happened to someone, and how dare we challenge an -opinion- because we're going to hurt their feelings by stating "I raped this guy in Black Ops last night."

Honestly though, being hurt by someone using a word like that is a matter of being thin skinned. Which there is nothing wrong with it but it becomes a problem when people start wishing everyone has thin skin, or everyone be effected by a trama the same way and we can all live in a carefully worded society and think of each others feelings before we say words like "Rape, retarded, or gimp."

Anonymous:

Ramzal:

Kelethor:

I think I should make myself clear. Not everyone deals with trauma the same. Some people, Like you and Iron lightning, are able to turn yourselves into gruff survivalists who turn their horrible experiences into things they can grow from. and good on you for doing that. HOWEVER, what is good for the goose is not good for the Gander, and how you have dealt with you're trauma and past experience's is not how the author will deal with it. Gandhi said a lot of thing's, but Gandhi was never raped by another man. neither was I, and neither were you (I assume and hope) so we can't judge him for dealing with his trauma in his own way.

It's not about becoming a "gruff survivalist" It's about growing. Bad things happen in life, every day. And not enough dry heaving over toilets, or people saying "I'm so sorry" can fix that. It is up the individual. Do you wish to know why I find the author a coward? What he is typing is an attempt for attention. He is literally living -in- his poor history rather living his life. I've had more than enough drunk nights on my couch as I wake up to an angry wife in the morning to finally realize the difference.

Honestly, any short comings in my life are just that. Short comings. I've taken being raped at a young age by my own father as nothing more than a bone that was broken. It hurt for awhile, but it healed with time. I found that the more people who told me "I am so sorry that happened to you.." or "You must be going through such a terrible time..." or my favorite "It's not your fault." I found myself sinking -deeper- into the depression of the event because those statements -make- you feel like you were a victim.

Me and Iron are not a rare type of people this happens to. We're just people who decided that enough is enough. I know plenty of other people that this has happened to. Those extremely close to me as well, women and men alike. And for the majority the women I know have taken it much better than I thought. Two in which shrugged when I brought up this subject and said "People need to put their big girl panties on and learn to suck it up. Bad stuff happens to everyone."

These people live their lives without triggers, frequent nightmares or crying fits/gaining weight. That in itself is strength. True strength. Weakness in yourself calls for attention like the Author does. Things happen. But what truly---TRULY upsets me is the fact that the Author is in a position that he is speaking for -everyone- who has gone through this or that all of us---even a majority of us react from being raped as he does. Which is simply not true.

You want to know what the real monstrosity of rape comes from? The people who are killed before, during or after the fact. They never had a CHANCE to get stronger, or move past it because that chance was stolen from them. And it happens all over the world, Africa, Korea, Europe, even in the United States does this occur. But you want to feel sorry for someone who is still alive and has a chance to move past this issue when there are people who were killed just so they could be -easier- to rape?

I know exactly what the Author has been through. But I have no sympathy for him. Or care. How he deals with that issue now is my greatest nightmare for anything that has ever traumatized me, to lay battered, beaten and DEFEATED by something that is not physical anymore but rather as loose, and hanging there like a dream--the past. To live is to acknowledge the past, live in the present to build for the future.

His reaction and explanations come from nothing but the kind of person who has been traumatized but chooses to have it hold him back. He is strong enough to move past it. He is. Anyone is, but this is not subject of "Everyone deals about it differently" but rather him not dealing with it at all. I've needed no pills, some sessions with a therapist when I was younger, and no pity to get past it. It's a matter of seeing what happened to you before as the past and not allow it to define you.

The author has chosen for it to define him. I will not. Now do you wish to lecture me again on the subject of how to deal with being raped by a man (My own father no less), when I have already stated that I have been previously? I do not need your assumptions or your hope as it has already happened. And honestly...so what that it has.

Hey guys, let me just say a few things:

I understand why you were upset by my article, I really do. If I had read this article two years ago I'd be right there with you, completely outraged, completely pissed off. How dare this guy make people think all of us are delicate porcelain dolls like him? How dare he just sit there, being a victim? And most of all, where the fuck does he get off speaking for everyone? (This, by the way, is why I started the article saying "I only speak for myself here.")

After all, I had gotten over it, why couldn't they?

The problem was, I hadn't gotten over it. I'd had five years where I was almost entirely symptom-free, or at least free from the most obvious symptoms like flashbacks and intrusive thoughts. That was due to my being in a less stressful living environment where I was able to more easily bury my past. Looking back, I can now see that though I thought I didn't have symptoms, this was actually the time when I was most effectively self-medicating with alcohol and when my dating problems were at their worst. It wasn't gone, it was just dormant, and growing. The problem with this kind of trauma is that it's like a vermin infestation -- the longer you pretend it doesn't exist the worse it gets.

That period ended when I took a new job that was much more stressful. Gradually my symptoms of depression increased, and my self-medication with alcohol went on the upswing. This was the worst period for me, and though I didn't understand what was happening until afterward, I was just about to take the first big drop on the roller coaster of depression.

It was during this time when I would become the most angry and defensive about this type of article. The point when I was the most convinced that I was getting along fine and that the people writing these things just had to toughen up and face the world. You're a rape victim? Oh boo hoo, so am I. I never needed therapy or told my story on the Internet. What did these people want, attention?

In retrospect, it was obvious how deeply in denial I was. The reason these articles made me so angry and upset was because they were showing vulnerability, and I'd been taught that the only way to live with myself was not not have that vulnerability. Without realizing it I was still dancing to the rapist's tune: "Forget this happened. Don't talk about it. Don't tell people about it. Don't even think about it." I had learned that the best way to deal with it was to disconnect my emotions from it and soldier on -- and yeah, that can be useful sometimes in the short term. Sometimes you need to do that to get through the day, or get through the week. I get that, I've been there. That's a part of emotional control. But eventually, you realize you're using it to get through life, and that's not healthy.

I'm going to tell you something that sucks a lot, and you're probably not going to believe me: to process the emotions you're actually going to have to feel them. I tell you that because when I got the most angry about articles like this one was right before I had my worst episode of depression. I was trying to pack down the feelings and I was failing. I'd ignored them for too long and they were finally boiling over.

So here's the deal: I'm not saying that you aren't over it, but in my personal experience when I thought I was over it was when things were just about to get really bad. When I thought I was thinking, "I don't want to be like that guy," I was actually thinking, "I don't want to feel things like that guy."

Just know that your extremely strong reaction may mean that you're not as "over it" as you think you are. When you look back on an experience like that and don't have any emotion or only have a faint feeling of emotion, it's likely that you're undergoing emotional numbing, which is a symptom of depression. The good news is that I've gotten a lot better since I started confronting what happened to me, but a lot of that has come from being more open to my emotions and being more vulnerable - and yeah, sometimes that means feeling sad. Feeling sad about something like this is normal, feeling bulletproof is not.

Also, excuse my curiosity of the subject and my double post. But there is an inconsistency. When I was going through the process of feeling triggers of so much of hinting towards my past, I found that I couldn't even type or speak about it. You mentioned as much in your article. We draw a similarity there, I'm sure.

However. I made that post today. In your article you stated that it took you time to even type it, that it was shocking to your past. From experience, exchanging emotion, thought or theory about it is a trigger due to you having to think this process over. There is an inconstancy. How could it take you more than a week to type 3 pages but less than that to respond with a direct opinion---which should be worse.

Ramzal:

Also, excuse my curiosity of the subject and my double post. But there is an inconsistency. When I was going through the process of feeling triggers of so much of hinting towards my past, I found that I couldn't even type or speak about it. You mentioned as much in your article. We draw a similarity there, I'm sure.

However. I made that post today. In your article you stated that it took you time to even type it, that it was shocking to your past. From experience, exchanging emotion, thought or theory about it is a trigger due to you having to think this process over. There is an inconstancy. How could it take you more than a week to type 3 pages but less than that to respond with a direct opinion---which should be worse.

Which is a reason I don't like anonymous articles like this being written. The only time I prefer anonymous(which is actually confidential) is when it involves getting a testimony for an actual case in which people's identity can be protected to prevent any sort of outrage by the community should they be biased.

The problem I have with Anonymous people when it comes to writing is that there is no accountability and there is just too much blind faith that the person is who they say they are. To which it is also too easy to manipulate people's will and minds to make them think like you do when it could all be a lie. It's that double standard when it comes to posting anonymously. Okay so a bunch of people who post on 4chan get spammed with a tropes v women link and decide to use their anonymous status to be assholes and people make the assertion thatfaith that they and random youtubers represent the "gaming community". Yet here we have a single person who is telling us their story and opinion and we are also meant to take it on blind faith that it is a person. I'm sorry but I have to remain skeptical unless I have hard evidence that says otherwise. My seem harsh to say it like that but the truth hurts.

Wow. Great article. I'm sorry you went through such a difficult time. I will certainly consider your words, as I'm sure I've been guilty of using "The R Word" without thinking about it. I hope your road to recovery rises to meet you buddy. Good luck.

Tenmar:

Ramzal:

Also, excuse my curiosity of the subject and my double post. But there is an inconsistency. When I was going through the process of feeling triggers of so much of hinting towards my past, I found that I couldn't even type or speak about it. You mentioned as much in your article. We draw a similarity there, I'm sure.

However. I made that post today. In your article you stated that it took you time to even type it, that it was shocking to your past. From experience, exchanging emotion, thought or theory about it is a trigger due to you having to think this process over. There is an inconstancy. How could it take you more than a week to type 3 pages but less than that to respond with a direct opinion---which should be worse.

Which is a reason I don't like anonymous articles like this being written. The only time I prefer anonymous(which is actually confidential) is when it involves getting a testimony for an actual case in which people's identity can be protected to prevent any sort of outrage by the community should they be biased.

The problem I have with Anonymous people when it comes to writing is that there is no accountability and there is just too much blind faith that the person is who they say they are. To which it is also too easy to manipulate people's will and minds to make them think like you do when it could all be a lie. It's that double standard when it comes to posting anonymously. Okay so a bunch of people who post on 4chan get spammed with a tropes v women link and decide to use their anonymous status to be assholes and people make the assertion thatfaith that they and random youtubers represent the "gaming community". Yet here we have a single person who is telling us their story and opinion and we are also meant to take it on blind faith that it is a person. I'm sorry but I have to remain skeptical unless I have hard evidence that says otherwise. My seem harsh to say it like that but the truth hurts.

I agree.

I cannot for any means believe that this (And this is going to sound very harsh, but I will take all of the backlash you wish to deal out) Anonymous has had what happened to him, happen. If I am wrong and my suspicion is unfounded then I will give any and all apologies I am asked or required to give... However. Real trauma doesn't work like that. If you took that much time. And I quote:

Writing this article took two weeks of stalling, restarting, and insomnia.

Speaking directly to someone's opinion is worse. So much worse than writing it. Two weeks of stalling two write this and less than a day to respond to an opinion on the boards? Namely when you haven't made a single post below your very own article? I find my suspicion that you are either not the person who wrote this article, or what you claimed happened to you Anonymous, in fact didn't happen to you well founded.

It could be a possibility that you are a professor gauging out reactions, thoughts, sympathies as well and aggression for the sake of research. Another possibility is you may just be doing this because you think this is fun. Or, the last you could be doing this for attention.

But the times do not match up at all. I have no issue with taking your word as it is, but this is glaring.

First off. Fantastic read. In a horrible way.

Then my 0.2€.

While I understand the point that is being made, I partly disagree. I feel like an asshole for doing it, but I think I kinda do. Explanation to follow, in a wall of text.

I can never understand how a rape victim feels. Unless that happens to me, which I hope it doesnt, ever.

But there are a lot of things that I can never understand. A lot of terrible things, and a lot of fantastic things. I'll never know how it feels for a woman to have an orgasm. I'll never know how it feels to that my kid sister confesses being raped, or my kid sister being run down or shot. Because I'm not a woman, and I dont have a kid sister.

Games, movies and books are ways to put ourselves in these shoes. And even if it will never, ever give us a 100% accurate experience, it can make us think and educate us in different ways. I think this is important. It also demystifies the taboos and I believe that makes it (a tiny bit) easier for victims of these things to talk about them, and maybe even get over them.

If we never talk about rape, we make it into something forbidden. And we add to the shame of the victims (which they should feel nothing of).

I dont think there are any things that should be forbidden to depict in media, but there are a lot of things that should come with a warning. Again, it can be difficult to draw that line. Some things can traumatize us so bad that even a name or a word can set us off. It may seem harsh, but this can imo never be anything other than the problem of the victim. It is 100% impossible to warn about everything. I loved Sin City, the OP was terrorized. The creators of Sin City could not possibly know his reaction, and I am 100% certain it was not intended on their part. As harsh as it may sound, this simply cannot be anything other than the problem of the victim, because it just cannot be helped.

If we are going to censor all thing that MIGHT trigger someone that has been traumatized we are going to destroy art in all its forms. This simply cannot be. Every time we expose ourselves to art in any form, we risk being offended. If we are severely traumatized we take an even greater risk of being reminded of our traumas. But this risk ALWAYS have to be our own responsibility.

With regards to rape being thrown around on xbox-live, I will not comment much since I do not play much online. But people are assholes, so if you play with random people, expect them to be assholes. If you cannot deal, dont.

With regards to friends not knowing, I again might sound harsh, but I expect my friends to tell me if I am being offensive or deal with it.

subtlefuge:

ReiverCorrupter:

subtlefuge:

At this point, I should just come out and say it: we're not debating anything. By that I mean that I make a point, you latch on to a single word (words that you claimed were meaningless less than 10 pages back), you deflect and justify and distract from the issue.

Helmholtz Watson:
I'm just pointing out that if a person is going to be so apposed to using the word rape, I see no reason why they should not also feel so strongly about the word "torture", "murder", or "kill".

Neither of you are really engaging in a debate so much as going around in circles making counter-assertions.

People can have strong reactions to almost any word. Someone whose loved one was murdered could have a very bad reaction to people using the word 'murder'.

However, rape is different in that it's something that is extremely personal. It's the actual victim of rape who is traumatized by it. Not only that, but it is an act of one person violating another in the most intimate way possible. The real problem is that it is pretty much the most traumatic thing that can happen to a person, and thus hearing the term 'rape' tossed around casually is bound to cause more suffering than tossing around the term 'murder'.

I would say that torture is probably even worse, but there just aren't nearly as many people who are tortured so you're less likely to cause someone distress by throwing around the term.

Well, you're just repeating exactly everything that I've said, so thanks for the assertions.

Well... that's because I was only explaining your side in the part you quoted... I went on to present the other side of the argument in the second part of my post... Sorry, I should have made what I was doing a bit more obvious.

subtlefuge:
More seriously though, my only point I was ever trying to make before I got too frustrated to see or think straight is that if you are offended by murder, you have no reason to be playing Call of Duty online. It should be completely acceptable to throw around that phrase in the specific violent online video game context. In the same way, people playing Animal Crossing or Mario Kart should not be subjected to being told that they are going to be murdered, because it really has nothing to do with the gameplay mechanics. Being offended by the word rape shouldn't exclude you from the experience of shooting people online.

I generally agree, but, as I believe I said in the second part of my post, online gameplay already gives you the option of preemptively blocking other people's communications, and using the service is a privilege. The fact that it's a privilege is a double edged sword: on the one hand you don't have a right to free speech; the company can ban you for whatever reason it wants to because it's their service and you don't have a right to it.

On the other hand, the company has absolutely no obligation to make sure you aren't offended, either. So while I agree that people who casually throw around the term 'rape' are generally d-bags, I also think that the people who are offended by that sort of thing should stop playing the victim and just take charge of their own mental well being by muting people or turning off their headset. Offend me once, shame on you, offend me twice, shame on me. PRESS THE GODDAMN MUTE BUTTON.

If your point is just moral: i.e. that saying offensive abusive things makes you a dick, then sure, that's kind of a given. But people are allowed to be dicks. All you can do is ask them not to be such dicks, and if they ignore you, as is likely, then you can't really do anything else. These online systems already have a function to report people, use that.

As far as the article goes, I have no problem with someone pointing out why 'rape' might be a worse term than other things because of people's traumatic experiences. They're right to call people's attention to it. But it's hardly the epidemic that some people are making it out to be. D-bags will be d-bags, and I sincerely doubt that the douchebaggery of CoD players is going to have a statistically significant impact upon the national crime rate for rape. If you don't like it, there's already plenty of online settings that allow you to avoid it.

Tenmar:
Snip

Banning people who "blow off steam" by denigrating others online is no great injustice. They lack consideration. If they are intent on practicing that lack of consideration, they should be able to be held accountable.

The victims of that kind of disrespectful behaviour are not the ones who should be held responsible for changing that environment. They are not acting from a vantage point which has granted them the privilege of appropriating and trivialising the experiences of others.

So while I am sincerely sorry to hear about your accident, equating the endemic power dynamics of rape and race to a car is something of a mistake. A car doesn't have any of the sociological connotations such language and threat contain.

In short, I don't think "free speech" by its popular entitled definition should be held in higher esteem than basic respect and courtesy.

Honestly some of the most awe-inspiring work I've ever read. I was already trying to curb using vulgar words like that but now I feel way more committed.

Thank you for going into the lion's den and doing something most of us will never see. The insight you've given is incredible.

LiquidGrape:

Banning people who "blow off steam" by denigrating others online because they lack consideration is no great injustice.

The victims of that kind of disrespectful behaviour are not the ones who should be held responsible for changing that environment. They are not acting from a vantage point which has granted them the privilege of appropriating and trivialising the experiences of others.

While I am sincerely sorry to hear about your accident, equating the endemic power dynamics of rape and race to a car is a mistake. A car doesn't have any of the sociological connotations such language and threat contain.

In short, I don't think "free speech" by its popular entitled definition should be held in higher esteem than basic respect and courtesy.

So say for example then if the trigger was say a sound of a gunshot cause one is a veteran or just a victim of gun violence then clearly guns or the sound of a gun firing doesn't have any sociological connotations cause it doesn't contain any such language and threat contained. Kinda a huge problem with you trying to trivialize people whose lives was affected by inanimate objects. Your dissent falls apart really fast cause while people don't know this a car is a weapon(which is funny considering how much we use cars as weapons in Twisted Metal, GTA, Burnout, Saints Row and many more battle racing games or sandbox games. Do you play any of these games bychance cause I will be laughing quite a bit if you do and don't realize this).

Also I'm not making the "Free speech" argument here. That argument is way overused compared to the actual meaning of free speech that people understand in the constitution. However I am preserving my right to speak freely without any sort of inhibition or societal peer pressure where there are clearly shouldn't be any such rules. That is one of the benefits of being an adult, you can most of the time chose who you wish to interact with especially with the luxury of games. If you join an online game where you don't know anybody then what exact right or power do you have to suddenly enforce your imperialistic standards on every person playing that game? If you are playing with randoms on a random server then you part of the deal is that you might hear people talk however they wish to talk for better or worse.

I actually even proposed the most logical solution. Make the effort to make your life a better place to the way you want to live it. Dedicated servers are right there as well as the ability to filter through the list of people and actually make friends. That's the point of being an activist, making the change for the better. You don't empower yourself by forcing everyone else to act the way you want them to.

Babitz:

ReiverCorrupter:
snip

Although I think it should be obvious (not saying you don't get it, but for the sake of random morons), I have the need to clarify that I don't go around spouting potentially offensive jokes to complete strangers. If I'm with complete strangers, I test the waters a bit before trying anything like that and it's not like I'm in 'offensive mode' 24/7.
Still, I will always defend the rights of people who do that, even if I think they're assholes. Sticks and stones. I have never in my life been offended over the internet. Not because I'm a 'privileged white Caucasian', but because words mean jack shit to me. I would like for people to see that stupid words are meaningless and it's better for them, and the world around them, if they make words their bitches, as one rapper would say. If you do that, words don't hold power over you anymore, and neither does someone who wants to offend / traumatize you. Iron Lightning managed to break off of that and he's a true shining example that I'm right.

I might have gone a bit overboard with the whole "saying x doesn't make you x-ist" shtick; guess I'm venting about some other stuff like this in games. Oh yeah, some of it was directed at that shitty Kotaku article that's about how saying "rape" in an online game makes you ok with rape culture.

...
I think we're pretty much on the same page so gg. Guess we're not gonna have a 12 post debate. :(

Also, I have no idea why is rape such a hot topic lately wherever I look. It's like someone up there thinks it's new to all of us.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with most of what you said. (I was assuming that you were defending free speech in general.) People have a right to be offended I guess, and I'm all for common courtesy, but I agree that allowing yourself to be offended is a form of mental weakness. People are much better off toughening themselves up rather than constantly complaining in the hopes that society will change so that they'll never hear something that might offend them.

It might make me sound like a dick, but what I think we really need is more insensitivity. If people simply stopped giving a crap about what other assholes said society would probably be a much better place. Frankly I don't want to live in a society where I constantly have to walk on egg shells in the fear of offending someone. That becomes its very own form of oppression.

You could say that I believe in the ideal of rugged individualism. Ultimately, if you aren't responsible for your own state of mind then how can you really be independent at all?

People would insult me every day in high school (I'm not saying I was bullied, my high school was just a place where everyone constantly insulted everyone else because it was the funny thing to do), but I couldn't care less because their opinions meant nothing to me. Granted high school is the biggest cesspool in society (it is full of teenagers, after all), but the point stands. You can't be offended if you don't care about other people's opinions.

Ramzal:

Tenmar:

Ramzal:

Also, excuse my curiosity of the subject and my double post. But there is an inconsistency. When I was going through the process of feeling triggers of so much of hinting towards my past, I found that I couldn't even type or speak about it. You mentioned as much in your article. We draw a similarity there, I'm sure.

However. I made that post today. In your article you stated that it took you time to even type it, that it was shocking to your past. From experience, exchanging emotion, thought or theory about it is a trigger due to you having to think this process over. There is an inconstancy. How could it take you more than a week to type 3 pages but less than that to respond with a direct opinion---which should be worse.

Which is a reason I don't like anonymous articles like this being written. The only time I prefer anonymous(which is actually confidential) is when it involves getting a testimony for an actual case in which people's identity can be protected to prevent any sort of outrage by the community should they be biased.

The problem I have with Anonymous people when it comes to writing is that there is no accountability and there is just too much blind faith that the person is who they say they are. To which it is also too easy to manipulate people's will and minds to make them think like you do when it could all be a lie. It's that double standard when it comes to posting anonymously. Okay so a bunch of people who post on 4chan get spammed with a tropes v women link and decide to use their anonymous status to be assholes and people make the assertion thatfaith that they and random youtubers represent the "gaming community". Yet here we have a single person who is telling us their story and opinion and we are also meant to take it on blind faith that it is a person. I'm sorry but I have to remain skeptical unless I have hard evidence that says otherwise. My seem harsh to say it like that but the truth hurts.

I agree.

I cannot for any means believe that this (And this is going to sound very harsh, but I will take all of the backlash you wish to deal out) Anonymous has had what happened to him, happen. If I am wrong and my suspicion is unfounded then I will give any and all apologies I am asked or required to give... However. Real trauma doesn't work like that. If you took that much time. And I quote:

Writing this article took two weeks of stalling, restarting, and insomnia.

Speaking directly to someone's opinion is worse. So much worse than writing it. Two weeks of stalling two write this and less than a day to respond to an opinion on the boards? Namely when you haven't made a single post below your very own article? I find my suspicion that you are either not the person who wrote this article, or what you claimed happened to you Anonymous, in fact didn't happen to you well founded.

It could be a possibility that you are a professor gauging out reactions, thoughts, sympathies as well and aggression for the sake of research. Another possibility is you may just be doing this because you think this is fun. Or, the last you could be doing this for attention.

But the times do not match up at all. I have no issue with taking your word as it is, but this is glaring.

I can assure you that everything put forth here is legitimate. This isn't some stunt, it isn't a professor, and it isn't a prank. I know Anonymous personally, and have been working with him on this for some time.

Susan Arendt:

I can assure you that everything put forth here is legitimate. This isn't some stunt, it isn't a professor, and it isn't a prank. I know Anonymous personally, and have been working with him on this for some time.

Thank you very much for the verification that the article actually isn't anonymous but instead confidential and of course legitimate. I don't know why the terms are always so interchanged when they mean two completely different things?

Therumancer:
Super huge wall o' text snip

Okay, dude... while I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, and you clearly put a lot of thought into it...

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ARTICLE. This article was about someone baring his soul to the Internet, telling about a terrible experience in his past. And you decided to go and do your own thing, prattling on about the miserable failure that is modern feminism.

A little sensitivity to the topic at hand (that is, "gamer" culture's issues with the word 'rape') would be nice.

Ramzal:

Tenmar:

Ramzal:

Also, excuse my curiosity of the subject and my double post. But there is an inconsistency. When I was going through the process of feeling triggers of so much of hinting towards my past, I found that I couldn't even type or speak about it. You mentioned as much in your article. We draw a similarity there, I'm sure.

However. I made that post today. In your article you stated that it took you time to even type it, that it was shocking to your past. From experience, exchanging emotion, thought or theory about it is a trigger due to you having to think this process over. There is an inconstancy. How could it take you more than a week to type 3 pages but less than that to respond with a direct opinion---which should be worse.

Which is a reason I don't like anonymous articles like this being written. The only time I prefer anonymous(which is actually confidential) is when it involves getting a testimony for an actual case in which people's identity can be protected to prevent any sort of outrage by the community should they be biased.

The problem I have with Anonymous people when it comes to writing is that there is no accountability and there is just too much blind faith that the person is who they say they are. To which it is also too easy to manipulate people's will and minds to make them think like you do when it could all be a lie. It's that double standard when it comes to posting anonymously. Okay so a bunch of people who post on 4chan get spammed with a tropes v women link and decide to use their anonymous status to be assholes and people make the assertion thatfaith that they and random youtubers represent the "gaming community". Yet here we have a single person who is telling us their story and opinion and we are also meant to take it on blind faith that it is a person. I'm sorry but I have to remain skeptical unless I have hard evidence that says otherwise. My seem harsh to say it like that but the truth hurts.

I agree.

I cannot for any means believe that this (And this is going to sound very harsh, but I will take all of the backlash you wish to deal out) Anonymous has had what happened to him, happen. If I am wrong and my suspicion is unfounded then I will give any and all apologies I am asked or required to give... However. Real trauma doesn't work like that. If you took that much time. And I quote:

Writing this article took two weeks of stalling, restarting, and insomnia.

Speaking directly to someone's opinion is worse. So much worse than writing it. Two weeks of stalling two write this and less than a day to respond to an opinion on the boards? Namely when you haven't made a single post below your very own article? I find my suspicion that you are either not the person who wrote this article, or what you claimed happened to you Anonymous, in fact didn't happen to you well founded.

It could be a possibility that you are a professor gauging out reactions, thoughts, sympathies as well and aggression for the sake of research. Another possibility is you may just be doing this because you think this is fun. Or, the last you could be doing this for attention.

But the times do not match up at all. I have no issue with taking your word as it is, but this is glaring.

So, a couple of things:

Yes, it took me two weeks to write a three-page article. That seems like a long time, and it would be, if I were just typing it beginning to end in one go. Except that's not how writing works, even with a subject that isn't intensely personal. I wrote this article multiple times, often throwing out drafts halfway through because they didn't convey what I wanted them to, were to broad, too vague, or just had more about my experience than I was comfortable sharing. One turned out way, way too angry, to the point that I wasn't even communicating effectively. It was not an easy article to write by any means. (You'll also note that I said I didn't throw up this time, it was the first time I wrote about my abuse that I was dry-heaving over the toilet.) Even after it was written, I wasn't sure I wanted it to actually get posted. I'd seen what happened to other writers who had written about the topic, and of course I had concerns about how I'd deal with it emotionally if someone, for example, questioned my gender, my sexuality, or the authenticity of my story. There isn't even a way to "prove" the last one in any sort of definitive sense. Especially since I wanted to remain anonymous, not only because of possible hostility from the Internet, but also because I don't want this article popping up if say, a prospective employer does a Google search on my name. I work in an industry where having this known about me would not be to my advantage.

Also, commenting on something I've written is easier than writing it in the first place. I've actually been commenting since the first day the article went up. Partially, this has to do with the fact that writing about the effects of my abuse is a hell of a lot easier than writing about the abuse itself. I'm used to talking about drinking, for example, or how bad I used to be at dating. (I joke about the latter a lot.) Talking about drinking or dating is a pretty normal thing for me to do, and though talking about depression isn't easy, it doesn't have the same effect as talking about my experiences. That's the hardest thing.

Having said that, don't think that I haven't been upset while writing comments, or reading comments, or the time I made the mistake of going to Reddit to see what people were saying. (Apparently, I'm a weak person who should kill myself. Thanks Reddit, you always understand.) I had advance warning that this was going to post, so I specifically surrounded myself with things and people that would elevate my mood. My girlfriend's been staying over, for instance, and I've been forcing myself to exercise. Haven't gotten that much work done, though. Yeah, I've been upset, I've been feeling sick and having flashbacks, but I don't let that bleed into comments because letting that happen is going to hinder my communication, not help it. I've also been helped by the many people who found this article helpful, some of whom are survivors who have sent me messages privately because they didn't want to post a comment everyone could read. That isn't to say that any of this has been easy, particularly when other survivors, such as you, don't agree with what I've said. That's hard, I would've liked if it spoke to you more than it did, but inevitably I can't please everyone. I appreciate your perspective, though.

It's quite ambitious to attempt to make the internet behave as if other people utilizing it were human beings rather than anonymous blobs to be exploited for amusement. I have the feeling that the choir will shout halleluja at this while the target audience will note rape as being particularly effective on victims of it. I hope life continues to improve for you though.

Anonymous:

Ramzal:

Tenmar:

Which is a reason I don't like anonymous articles like this being written. The only time I prefer anonymous(which is actually confidential) is when it involves getting a testimony for an actual case in which people's identity can be protected to prevent any sort of outrage by the community should they be biased.

The problem I have with Anonymous people when it comes to writing is that there is no accountability and there is just too much blind faith that the person is who they say they are. To which it is also too easy to manipulate people's will and minds to make them think like you do when it could all be a lie. It's that double standard when it comes to posting anonymously. Okay so a bunch of people who post on 4chan get spammed with a tropes v women link and decide to use their anonymous status to be assholes and people make the assertion thatfaith that they and random youtubers represent the "gaming community". Yet here we have a single person who is telling us their story and opinion and we are also meant to take it on blind faith that it is a person. I'm sorry but I have to remain skeptical unless I have hard evidence that says otherwise. My seem harsh to say it like that but the truth hurts.

I agree.

I cannot for any means believe that this (And this is going to sound very harsh, but I will take all of the backlash you wish to deal out) Anonymous has had what happened to him, happen. If I am wrong and my suspicion is unfounded then I will give any and all apologies I am asked or required to give... However. Real trauma doesn't work like that. If you took that much time. And I quote:

Writing this article took two weeks of stalling, restarting, and insomnia.

Speaking directly to someone's opinion is worse. So much worse than writing it. Two weeks of stalling two write this and less than a day to respond to an opinion on the boards? Namely when you haven't made a single post below your very own article? I find my suspicion that you are either not the person who wrote this article, or what you claimed happened to you Anonymous, in fact didn't happen to you well founded.

It could be a possibility that you are a professor gauging out reactions, thoughts, sympathies as well and aggression for the sake of research. Another possibility is you may just be doing this because you think this is fun. Or, the last you could be doing this for attention.

But the times do not match up at all. I have no issue with taking your word as it is, but this is glaring.

So, a couple of things:

Yes, it took me two weeks to write a three-page article. That seems like a long time, and it would be, if I were just typing it beginning to end in one go. Except that's not how writing works, even with a subject that isn't intensely personal. I wrote this article multiple times, often throwing out drafts halfway through because they didn't convey what I wanted them to, were to broad, too vague, or just had more about my experience than I was comfortable sharing. One turned out way, way too angry, to the point that I wasn't even communicating effectively. It was not an easy article to write by any means. (You'll also note that I said I didn't throw up this time, it was the first time I wrote about my abuse that I was dry-heaving over the toilet.) Even after it was written, I wasn't sure I wanted it to actually get posted. I'd seen what happened to other writers who had written about the topic, and of course I had concerns about how I'd deal with it emotionally if someone, for example, questioned my gender, my sexuality, or the authenticity of my story. There isn't even a way to "prove" the last one in any sort of definitive sense. Especially since I wanted to remain anonymous, not only because of possible hostility from the Internet, but also because I don't want this article popping up if say, a prospective employer does a Google search on my name. I work in an industry where having this known about me would not be to my advantage.

Also, commenting on something I've written is easier than writing it in the first place. I've actually been commenting since the first day the article went up. Partially, this has to do with the fact that writing about the effects of my abuse is a hell of a lot easier than writing about the abuse itself. I'm used to talking about drinking, for example, or how bad I used to be at dating. (I joke about the latter a lot.) Talking about drinking or dating is a pretty normal thing for me to do, and though talking about depression isn't easy, it doesn't have the same effect as talking about my experiences. That's the hardest thing.

Having said that, don't think that I haven't been upset while writing comments, or reading comments, or the time I made the mistake of going to Reddit to see what people were saying. (Apparently, I'm a weak person who should kill myself. Thanks Reddit, you always understand.) I had advance warning that this was going to post, so I specifically surrounded myself with things and people that would elevate my mood. My girlfriend's been staying over, for instance, and I've been forcing myself to exercise. Haven't gotten that much work done, though. Yeah, I've been upset, I've been feeling sick and having flashbacks, but I don't let that bleed into comments because letting that happen is going to hinder my communication, not help it. I've also been helped by the many people who found this article helpful, some of whom are survivors who have sent me messages privately because they didn't want to post a comment everyone could read. That isn't to say that any of this has been easy, particularly when other survivors, such as you, don't agree with what I've said. That's hard, I would've liked if it spoke to you more than it did, but inevitably I can't please everyone. I appreciate your perspective, though.

Very well. For all intents and purposes as you have stated as well as the mod--Susan--I apologize for the accusation. Everyone takes situations differently however.

maninahat:
This is the single most important article I have read on the escapist, and there is nothing more I can say about it.

This. I don't think I can really express how important this article was, and how much courage it must have taken to write it. There were points where I came close to crying. I know I'm not really adding anything to the discussion because there have been so many comments, but I felt like I had to comment. This is an article that every gamer should read.

Ramzal:
[quote="Anonymous" post="6.379898.14930600"]
Very well. For all intents and purposes as you have stated as well as the mod--Susan--I apologize for the accusation. Everyone takes situations differently however.

Apology accepted. No hard feelings.

Orekoya:

Therumancer:

Orekoya:

Your name is familiar; I've seen you do alot of arguing typically against gay rights in many different threads. Seeing your name in a gay thread usually just pissed me off to the point of simply not reading your posts anymore but now I'm just expressing genuine curiosity. I just spent the past couple of hours debating if I should even bring this up but I just have to know: how do you know the man who raped you was a gay man? I mean was he someone you knew or was it something you found out later? Because reading that statement by itself and knowing your post history, I can't help but feel you might be projecting your feelings on pedophiles, rape and your personal experience onto homosexuals.

I don't paticularly want to de-rail this thread, but I'll say this much:

The gist of what your saying is pretty much loaded. The basic idea being that if someone like me has been victimized, we're effectively too biased to take a rational stance on the subject. If we haven't been victimized we're ignorant and "how could we know" based simply on rhetoric.

I will say this much. What happened to me has lead to me putting a lot of effort into learning about the subject, the gay community, and how things actually are. I know more about homosexuals, the gay rights movement, and the gay community, culture, and subcultures than most gay people within that culture do. It's kind of funny but in the past I've shocked people with some of the things I know, due to the assumption that someone who wasn't gay couldn't possibly know those things the way I did (and no, I won't go into details here). You'd be surprised at what you can do when properly motivated.

A point many people who argue gay rights with me miss is that I'm not talking bunk when I say that my position on the subject has waffled over the years before settling on my current point of view. Something based on what information I've had, and looking at the big picture, as well as the people I've known. It shocks some people think that I might have actually supported the rights of gay men at one time, and that I have to be lying about it, but it happens to be true. When I was in college I probably sat in on more ABIGAYLES meetings than most gay people did. My interests also caused me to look into certain trends and patterns of behavior more closely than most people have done when given a brief.

Despite what people might want to think, the reason why an arguement with me on this subject can't be "won" is because I happen to be right. They miss the point that I was sitting where a lot of the people argueing with me are decades ago, and I know what they think they know, and also realize that if they ever really looked into the subject with any kind of actual interest and effort, they would become me. Hence the constant prodding for people to do their own research, and do their own digging and such. It's the kind of situation where someone can't just tell you the truth, it has to be gained from experience. Of course it takes a decent amount of effort and without a motivating force like mine a lot of people are just going to take things at face value, and let's face it, tolerance is the easier path since it doesn't involve actually having to do anything, especially nowadays when there is already inertia for it.

I was more curious than trying to accuse you of anything, among your many, many, many (over 8000) posts I know you statistically take a more or less neutral stance on gays but then again I've also seen you call gay people sexual deviants and say other vicious things and the lingering negative remembrance of those post far outweigh your neutral ones. So can you really blame me for asking?

Well Deviant just means someone who deviates from the norm, which they do. Pretty much anything other than heterosexual, missionary position sex is "deviant", a term which includes pretty much everyone from homosexuality to BDSM, to *ahem* other things. That said I don't remember having used that term, but I might have.

Now I have accused gay men of being sexual predators, which many people take offense to, and which I will not get into here since it would derail the thread. That's something that comes from a lot of experience and observation, a lot of which came about from me doing surveillance type work professionally, as well as having access to information that the typical person in the public doesn't have at the moment since in some cases it can border on "trade secrets" of sort. I don't see any reason to deny it, unlike most people who are simply hate mongers or reacting because of what they heard in church or whatever, I'm convinced of these facts based on things I've actually seen as well as what I've heard in what amount to unbiased sources (the primary motivation of which being pure capitalism as opposed to any kind of social agenda. These facts simply being another variable to be juggled, without any real care being made, since the guys gathering the information would literally do anything for money, if they could legally do something really disgusting like make money by pimping out toddlers or cooking and serving infants to cannibals, they probably would, being more or less neutral to anything no matter how repugnant in order to make money).

I just had to post a link to it on 'The Guardian' and kindly ask them if they could repost it there. This is an article that needs to be read, and sad to say, far too many people would prefer not to demean themselves by going onto a 'games site'. Yes, even they need to read it.

TAdamson:
Snip

My point was that people don't go on XBox live and tell their opponents that they are "going to murder them" or that they have "murdered them".

yes they do.... All the time... Do you even play on live? It sounds like you are going on hear say.

"I'm an engineer, and I solve practical problems." I use this phrase alot and I think i'll use it again here. It sucks being reminded of something that happened to you in the past and no reason why it should ever happen at all, so I think I might have a solution to solving the reminder part while gaming after reading this article: Create New A New Slang. Ya i know its not as easy as it sounds but if someone can create a word or phrase or something that has more impact than rape, people will use that slang instead of...well you get the idea.

flatten_the_skyline:

Therumancer:

In reality every sexual interaction is supposed to be consentual, however people, and I'd even venture most people, have fantasies about non-consentual sex with whatever kind of person they are interested in. Guys have their dominatrixs and amazons, girls have their randy shieks, pirate captains, and cattle barons and such. This stuff is sold by the truckload. It's adult material because it takes an adult to be able to seperate the fantasy from the reality and understand that things don't work like that in reality.

I agree. But to live out such a fantasy within a controlled environment, usually including safewords, a good chat beforehand and an evaluation afterwards IS consensual, this is called consensual nonconsent. As lang as you have safewords, even a "No" or "Stop" can be ignored.

I know several feminists of all genders who enjoy rapeplay, degradation or hurt.

But all of them only enjoy these things on their terms. Only few people enjoy to those things from strangers.

I don't have a problem with movies about rape, actually. There are a lot of good ones out there. And I don't have a problem with BDSM porn, as long as the actors are treated alright.
What sets me off are movies that include nonconsensual behaviour, which is not depicted as such. Comedies where people are degraded, and where the joke is not on the one who degrades (see "The Dictator", though this movie is also not perfect) but on the degraded.

Therumancer:
Some romance novel written for women about some shiek or whatever (represented artistically by models like Fabio, or early Antonio Banderas) capturing some young, pretty thing, and using her for sex while she's taken to all these exotic places, perhaps with some trivial plot thrown in. The differance here is that while the sex isn't consentual to start, it's something everyone involved winds up enjoying, and usually turns into love, that harem girl usually winds up becoming the queen (or at least a favored mistress with a lot of power) by the end of the story for example. That's NOT a blueprint for a healthy real life relationship, which is exactly why it comes with an adult's only label as much as the actual sexual acts themselves.

Those plots are worse, because the message is "she wants it, or will want it at some point, she just doesn't know yet"

Therumancer:

A line between that kind of thing, or the male version with guys being used by Amazons (or whatever) much the same way, and things like "Rapelay" which is the current textbook whipping boy does exist. That line is that "Rapelay" is all about revenge and the entire point is that the girls on the receiving end don't enjoy it, as the protaganist rapes his way up the line of a family, which puts it in a differant territory as none of the victims wind up genuinely enjoying themselves in any lasting fashion. Other examples like "Battle Raper" are less ambigious, because if that's the series I'm thinking of, I'm not a fan (due it it kind of blowing chips) but if I remember the plotline is basically a fighting tournament where the winners get to use the losers sexually in addition to advancing. Despite "rape" in the title, pretty much everyone involved knows the rules and more or less consented to it by entering into those battles to begin with. It's not exactly a deep title or a common sense set up, but you really can't say it's paticularly offensive either.

I checked out Battle Raper on wiki and moby right now, but it doesn't say anywhere what happens when the guy loses. And you're right, to some point this still questionable game is way better than rapelay, where consent is definitely out of the question. I know that "loser gets dominated" exists in RL as well.

Therumancer:

A good part of why I am going after feminists is the dual standard. If you take a story about a Shiek who takes women as concubines, who finds that one special girl who he falls in love with while using her, finds the feeligns are mutual with, and eventually marries, along with whatever else pads the story out, if it's direct at men feminists will scream it's a horrible work of rape-horror that needs to be banned. The same basic story appears with someone like "Fabio" on the cover and marketing directed at women, and feminists will generally ignore it.

Nope, most people I know will despise them all the same.

Therumancer:

It should also be noted (to answer this for all those who raised this question) that while feminism was at one time about equality, it's not entirely about power coming at the expense of men, which is why it has a dual standard. The basic message inherant in going after one face of things but not the other is simply that men can't handle it, so society should keep us in line. To be honest, decades ago Feminism had a valid point where women were outright prohibited from voting, or doing specific things for no paticularly good reason. Today, without those valid crusades, it's all about things like trying to basically shackle men because of our physical differances and how they give us an unfair advantage. Demands that standards be lowered for pretigious jobs with physical requirements so women can do them, or even in some cases have job performance standards lowered or removed when certain biological things like childbirth come up. The demand that people overlook the differances between men and women entirely, and oftentimes in exclusion of common sense.

Sexism is over just like racism ended in 1870. I've encountered sexist structures whithin the most anarchist emancipatory movements, because there's a sexist in all of us, including myself. We all were raised with sexist role models, and even if you don't want it, it shows. And denial as often encountered with self-proclaimed feminists only makes it worse.

Today, it isn't about those obvious things like driving a car, going to the army or voting.
Today, it is about subtle things. The way we behave, speak, assume roles. And no, I don't subscribe to everything that's been done in the name of feminism.

Therumancer:

Along with this you have feminists in many cases going so far as to claim that due to men being bigger, stronger, and still in control of most of society, there is no such thing as consentual sex and all women are rape victims because they are not in a position of enough control to begin with in order to consent. That is how utterly bonkers the feminist definition of what constitutes rape increasingly is. No matter how consentual it is, it's still rape, since it can't be any
other way. A no-win scenario created by their own inherant logic.

Yup, they exist. We're sorry.

Therumancer:

In short, I don't take feminism seriously as a position.

Then you maybe didn't meet the right feminists. Most feminists I know are fun, pro-sex, active, intelligent people.

No, it just means that the people your referring to call themselves feminists but aren't actually feminists. The battle for equally long since won (a few decades ago, not to the beginning of the 20th century), the idea of feminism and advancing women by definition entails putting them ahead of men. If your a believe in equality, your not a feminist, just
a regular person.

That said when it comes to fiction, your correct that the "message" in "rape fantasy" can easily be misinterpeted, hence why it's adults only (as I pointed out) as it takes an adult to diffeentiate it being fantasy from some kind of lesson that could be applied IRL. That said, it's a common thing because while it might not be for everyone, it's something a LOT of people like at least as fantasy (and understanding it to be such). The point mostly being that going after rape.. as a blanket declaration, is a bad idea, context does matter, and yes it can be highly subjective as to what is appropriate and isn't, which is one of the reasons why the law should stay well away from speech matters like this because laws by their nature cannot be subjective if they are going to function (not that we're really talking about the law).

Again, as I said, if you could possibly describe the scene as being "ravished" then chances are there isn't going to be a problem, consentual or not within the story. On the other hand if it seems like vengeance porn, well that's something else entirely. It's the differance between say Anne Rice's "Claiming Of Sleeping Beauty" series (which is pretty famous and widely read), and say "Rapelay". Both are non-consentual erotic works. The differance is that Beauty really enjoys her plight (eventually) and it's all about that, in Rapelay nobody enjoys themselves except for the sadistic protaganist who is out for some misogynistic vengeance if I remember from the plot description. Despite the title (as I mentioned) I don't think "Battle Raper" even involves rape, since if I remember (I was trying to find a synopsis and character guide but I couldn't) pretty much everyone willingly got involved in that "tournament" knowing what it was all about, technically making it consentual.

Otherwise, "Invisible Knapsack" arguements are, and always will be bunk. The idea that society is uncosciously bigoted against whatever group you happen to be part of due to tradition or whatever. It's a common arguement used by pretty much any group looking for attention, women, ethnic, religious, etc... but the thing is that "invisible knapsack" arguements can be made on behalf of just about any group, including the "evil" male white majority that all the other groups complain about. You can point at any failing or situation and then find a way to point to society as what's to blame, for just about anything. The differance between a crackpot conspiricy theory, and invisible knapsack arguements, is simply that those argueing about the knapsack usually have the brains to use sociological terms and arguements to point to the problem, rather than an ambigious "them" or pointing to a very specific, large group of people and ascribing it a direct motive. In the end an invisible knapsack arguement comes down to ranting about how everyone is out to get you and oppress you, it's just you try and argue that they don't realize they are doing it, or can't be blamed due to societal inertia. It's all bunk when you get down to it, as today in sociology they will typically explain why such arguements don't hold up, among them that a lot of that is pretty much society "working as intended" when your actually a minority (ie you shouldn't be surprised to be treated as one, if you are one, and the society your in outnumbers you). With women it's a touchier subject, as a lot of the "bigotry" comes from treating women as generally weaker and more fragile than men (which is true incidently) which comes down to jobs and allowances, or how people choose not to ignore various biological issues (childbirth, etc...) in dealing with them overall. Today the kinds of arguements you see made by women are about how if it's suspected a woman is going to have a kid she won't be promoted to a position of authority due to the division it causes, and otherwise effecting employment. Women argue that an employer should not be able to consider such things because wanting to have a kid, and eventually doing so, is part of being a woman, and employers should have to deal with that. On the other hand employers argue that they expect all their workers to put the job first, especially at a high level, and that means a woman has to put family or the desire for one on hold. It's one of the big debates within society. That's an actual, straightforward issue with common sense concerns based on reality, not some kind of invisible social inertia. Ditto for issues about whether physical standards (running, lifting, jumping, etc...) for women should be lowered to remove the "barrier" from them doing specific jobs and other things, rather than simply letting them do the job if they happen to meet those standards (which is usually pretty unusual for a woman to do). I'm not going to get into passing judgement or argueing the specifics here, I'm simply saying that this is what's left, and it's not any kind of "invisible knapsack" type bigotry.

ReiverCorrupter:

Therumancer:
The feminist arguements also come down to a dual standard as to what should be allowed. The basic arguement being that it's okay for women to produce, and read books about being ravished by pirates or whatever, but it's not okay for men to create or read the same thing.

...snip...

Feminism sucks because it by and large represents a dual standard, and the arguement that girls should be able to do things that get guys branded freaks or wierdos.

Well, to be perfectly fair you're overgeneralizing feminism. The feminists who fight so that women get paid equal wages for equal work shouldn't be lumped into the same group as those who try to scandalize things in the media by talking about 'objectification'.

Whether you agree with it or not, there's a huge difference between fighting something as concrete as a discrepancy in pay between two people who have the same job and the same hours by trying to get certain pieces of legislation passed, and fighting a vague cultural war in which the ultimate goal is to change people's "perceptions" or "prejudices". Not only are the goals of the latter enterprise vague, but the effects of the things that they are trying to combat are hardly proven.

(In case it isn't obvious, I support the former, but am cynical of the latter. I, for one, wouldn't allow my daughters, if I had any, to spend too much of their time playing dress-up or doing other things that might make them think that their worth lies in their appearance. I also wouldn't enter into a relationship in which I didn't consider my partner an intellectual equal. However, I can't help but feel that the constant complaints about pop-culture are both counter-productive and silly. A woman who was raised properly isn't going to be a slave to the images in the media. The real thing at fault is bad parenting.)

As far as the double standard goes, I can hardly speak for these people, but I imagine quite a few of them would argue that romance novels are as just as bad as their male equivalents. Others might argue that it isn't the same for men as it is for women because of the entrenched patriarchy. I won't defend or even suppose that I am presenting these arguments successfully. But I do think you're overgeneralizing a bit.

Well when it comes to things like Romance Novels, the thing there is that both genders are into the same basic thing. If anything the big differance is that it's acceptable for women to read them, but less so for men. Your typical "romance" novel from the romance section and some porno book from the porn section are pretty much the same exact thing, covering the same basic material when you get down to it. Actually I think the actual differance might be is that despite the perceptions the stuff girls read is a bit more "hardcore" than the actual porn, which sounds shocking until you've ever had the (mis)fortune of listening to the locker room chat of both guys and girls and realize who is actually worse. When it comes to some of these things like romance novels that get attacked as enforcing a negative stereotype of feminimity or whatever, I think people tend to overlook them being universal behaviors that don't clearly fit on one side of the gender gap. It's sort of like porn in general, both genders consume it in more or less equal proportions, it's just considered taboo (freaky)
for men. Some girl shows up with a book with Fabio on the cover dressed as an erotic pirate and some girl in a torn up dress tied to the mast of his ship about be be ravished and nobody thinks anything of it, some guy pulls out a book with a dude bound to the mast of a ship and some gorgeous lady dressed as an erotic pirate about to ravish him, and everyone is liable to treat him like a freak, "that's not appropriate reading material for the break room". :)

The thing is that there really isn't an entrenched patriarchy so much as there is human society. Overall the genders aren't really all that differant, other than women bearing the children and being physically less capable than the men on average, which does lead to the more physically capable side of things having more of a prescence in the work force. Likewise the process of bearing children is not exactly quick and easy, and women doing that is another thing that has to be considered, and it DOES very much come up during employment since a woman might very well be out of comission for a number of months and then have to radically re-asses her priorities at nearly any time. In general with a guy you don't have to worry about the possibility he's going to show up tomorrow and say "oh yeah, I'm pregnant" and have his rate of reliability suddenly change. All of this very much influances things like wages which are in part based on perceptions of reliability. Now granted from a certain perspective it's not FAIR, I mean a woman didn't ask to be born a woman, but at the same time it is a reality and saying that an employer shouldn't be allowed to consider the obvious is pretty stupid as well. It's not a conflict I'm going to try and sort through in detail and give solid judgements on, simply laeaving it at "it exists" and that it's a major issue because it's not easily resolved.... and the same applies to a lot of the gender issues that exist. It's not patriachy, or bigotry, or anything else as much as reality.

Feminists are those who by definition push the interests of women, with equality in a societal sense, there is nothing left to push besides trying to get an advantage over men. Those who argue in favor of equality for women are NOT feminists, they are just women. Of course the term does seem to be heavily misused because it carries a degree of power with
it. A feminist is the kind of person who instead of argueing points like the above on one side or the other would argue that men should say be unable to hold any position of authority whatsoever due to their inherant physical abillities meaning there is no other way of women ever having power unless they have it all. A point which goes hand in hand with rants about how with men being stronger, all sex, no matter how seemingly consentual, is effectively rape since true equality is impossible and without equality there cannot be consenting equals... so to avoid rape women have to be given all the societal power to perhaps counterbalance the physical power. Simply put actual feminism borders on the absolutly insane nowadays, because with equality and the state of the actual arguements (which are kind of petty compared to what the issues used to be... you know fighting over wages and biological considerations in the workplace, as opposed to say... the right to own property, or not be considered the property of a husband), there really isn't anything left to crusade for. Feminism achieved every reasonable goal it had set, so now all that's left is for it to set increasingly insane ones.

Dr Snakeman:

Therumancer:
Super huge wall o' text snip

Okay, dude... while I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, and you clearly put a lot of thought into it...

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ARTICLE. This article was about someone baring his soul to the Internet, telling about a terrible experience in his past. And you decided to go and do your own thing, prattling on about the miserable failure that is modern feminism.

A little sensitivity to the topic at hand (that is, "gamer" culture's issues with the word 'rape') would be nice.

Actually if you bothered to read what I've said I did cover the subject and the usage of the word "rape". Feminism and such was simply a side point I mentioned in connection to it, largely because feminism has a lot to do with how the term is defined and demonized. People responded about the comments on feminism, and I responded to them, etc... so don't point fingers at me. I've gotten responses to other aspects of what I said as well.

Before going off on me I'd imagine you (and others) might want to actually read what I say, and track the flow of conversation through the posts.

You might also notice that in responding to a comment on gay rights, I haven't responded to the troll trying to pick a fight due to not wanting to derail the thread onto that topic simply because I answered someone's queries about my own experiences.

I don't mind the criticism, but don't point fingers at me for things that aren't my fault. My initial statement was pretty well balanced and feminism was just mentioned in support of my overall comments.

I'll also say that while I disagree with the article writer on things, I haven't actually attacked them, but rather some of the points being made. No offense, but if you bear your soul on the internet as an article attached to a site with a comments system/forum your inviting criticism and challenges. If the OP couldn't handle it, I doubt he would have said anything.

Heck, I've given my opinion on a number of contreversial topics, on a site that I know isn't friendly to my point of view. Including some very personal bits that have gotten smacked down and tossed through a blender. I get trolls following me around on topics because of of being moderatly anti-gay men. I deal with it, and stand by what I said, and was prepared to deal with the fallout so I don't go screaming every time someone thinks they are being clever by dredging something up.... and really, what I've said at my worst here has been pretty even handed on the topic, nothing at all like some of the garbage I have to deal with.

In short, I might generally be seen as a forum villain, but your services as a white knight aren't needed here for the moment... and probably won't ever be needed where I'm concerned.

Darkmantle:

TAdamson:
Snip

My point was that people don't go on XBox live and tell their opponents that they are "going to murder them" or that they have "murdered them".

yes they do.... All the time... Do you even play on live? It sounds like you are going on hear say.

Well it's appropriate in the context, you are going to kill them in the game. But I have never heard anybody refer to it as "murder". It's more of a "I'm gonna getchu" "Imma gunna kill u" thing.

You also wouldn't say "I'm going to murder/kill you" while playing Madden or FIFA. But people do say I'm going to rape you in that context.

People say "rape" when it's inappropriate. They are trying to demean their opponent further than the point of actually killing them. Or they are referring to a punishing long-lasting task. ie. "The restaurant staff got raped last night. They're exhusted."

If you actually compare "rape" to a similar act like "torture"; apart from the occasional use of the adjective "torturous" torture isn't really used as a word out of context.

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