Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest

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I've never really understood the obsession people have with Vasquez. She is just simply there to die. Created solely to be contrasted against the main character Ripley, so that James Cameron can drive home a point that a woman's 'true strength' comes from her 'maternal instinct'.

Zachary Amaranth:

Bato:
Why is it a thing that women have to be petite and short?
They have body sizes that differ as much as men do, sure they have less natural muscle than men do, but that doesn't mean they all have the physique of a 16 year old with two watermelons duct taped to them.

To be fair, a 6' woman is up there on the curve.

Then again, in games populated by hulking refigerators of men, I think the argument that there are too many tall women is kind of...What's the word I'm looking for...Ridiculous.

Also, a women meeting physical standards in an army, futuristic or current, is going to be a woman of a certain size.

Paradoxrifts:
I've never really understood the obsession people have with Vasquez. She is just simply there to die. Created solely to be contrasted against the main character Ripley, so that James Cameron can drive home a point that a woman's 'true strength' comes from her 'maternal instinct'.

It's a particularly male genre that focuses on different aspects/tales of femininity, of which Vasquez represents one.

Wait!.....that was Jim?........but...Jim has WAY bigger tits than that

All right, then! Let's see more female character models!

Just... Please... Let's not have a round of righteous outrage when they start getting tea-bagged in multiplayer...?

JESUS CHRIST MY EYES!

...whhhhhyyyyyy....

In FPSs you are mostly in first person I.e you're looking through the eyes. Why would I even care?

razuk:
Aside from the idea of Jim's crotch-less lingerie that has been engraved into my mind, I have to agree with everything Jim said. Though I suppose that's nothing new.

How about some props to Halo for having the option of playing female characters since Halo 3?

Oh good. Someone already gave Halo some praise on this topic. Good on you.

While Halo 3 only had a female voice option, Halo Reach went as far as making a different, more slender body type for the female multiplayer characters. Not to mention a number of female voice options for the Firefight mode.

Right on Sterling, the new Aliens game it is a glaring omission to have no female combatants, and if futuristic Black Ops 2 doesn't have any female combatants (even when COD4 had that female fighter pilot) that'll be sad. I mean Black Ops didn't have a single female Viet-Minh guerilla to spite them making up a huge proportion of the fighting force so I'm not holding out for much. Hmm, and COD2 had female combatants in the Russian campaign... why the backsliding?

What I'd really like is a multiplayer shooter with an ENTIRELY female cast. Like when they were making that game Brink, when they decided to go with only one gender of simplicity of customisation, why not go for an all female cast?

gamejunkiey69:
Hey, i have an idea. How about in stead of FPS's we make some FPS's? First Person Stabbers? I like a game were i'd use a knife to fight some one else with a knife instead of, As yahtzee says "Me shooting at something really far away and me dying alot"

Zeno Clash?

Or I don't know, knife only games of CoD?

Demo-knighting in Team Fortress 2? Or as a decent spy.

Oh yeah, Team Fortress 2, to spite the huge variation from class to class they are all guys. But there is still a huge effort that has gone into making really robust female version of characters like Pyro and Scout and Medic:

http://www.fugworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2792

http://steamcommunity.com/id/arikastack/screenshot/576683685684263574?tab=public

On the topic of games that are shooters and actually have the option to play as a female...

But that's still missing the fucking point entirely.

The point being that, the reason why most AAA FPS' are sausagefests, can be found in the obtuse amounts of grunge, realism, uncanny valleys, and terrifyingly immersive moments in them, coupled with reasons I've stated 3 seperate times, which, also as stated, such reasons can be quickly void in the absence of gritty realism as the effect they have on the stable human brain diminishes quickly.

mad825:
In FPSs you are mostly in first person I.e you're looking through the eyes. Why would I even care?

Exactly why this isn't really a big of a problem in terms of representation of gender but more of the writing and narrative of the actual game itself.

I will note I did not watch the video but the big thing I notice from the majority here is that they simply want female characters just to have female characters to which is probably the WORST motivation to actually do what a consumer wants.

To actually make a good game the writers, developers, and producers have to want their idea to not only be capable to produce in a video game but also needs to be green lighted by a publisher. In terms of single player most Modern military shooters are written based on the idea of the writer to which series like COD:Modern Warfare has an established plot with similar characters to which they want to give that illusion of "realism"(not actual realism mind you) to which it was the writers choice to simply not have a female playable character. And this is just the single player standpoint.

As for the multiplayer? Well two things. First, developers when games were on much smaller budgets did two approaches. One was smaller models to which was VERY imbalanced when it came to play because it gave them too much of an advantage. The latter was more based on the modeling and while games like Unreal were able to give the players a big block to model their characters under not all game engines are going to be the same or have the same level of consumer control. So in essence it is going to be more work to create female models to which you put a good deal of resources in getting everything capable of customization or you go generic like in many MMOs.

But in the end as I am quoting Mad825 the only person really getting the satisfaction from a multiplayer standpoint is the other players as the actual avatar of ANY FPS game is the GUN and NOT the person holding the gun.

Christ this women must be in video games is really getting old here. It's like everyone suddenly forgot that developers and writers and publishers all have deadlines and only a certain amount of time to actually work on a game. Not every game or company is going to be like Riot Games where they are relying 100% of their sole IP where they get the luxury to remodel older characters and constantly patch their game. There are going to be critical choices made and left on the floor in order to produce an actual functional product. It is completely unrealistic as a consumer to demand that companies delay a game's release and let consumers have the game be designed on their standards rather than respecting the rights and creative freedom of the writers, developers, and artists that have already made so many sacrifices just to produce the game in its current state.

Not to mention that a lot of really popular first person shooters are set in the -future- where there should be -more- modernization in the roles of different genders in the military, not -less- as it seems when you see no women around at all.

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

Does not count.

Paradoxrifts:
I've never really understood the obsession people have with Vasquez. She is just simply there to die. Created solely to be contrasted against the main character Ripley, so that James Cameron can drive home a point that a woman's 'true strength' comes from her 'maternal instinct'.

Where did Cameron say that?

Because I certainly never got the impression that Vasquez died because she wasn't maternal enough, she died because she was a martyr who stayed back fighting off the aliens so the rest of the group could escape but she got cornered. Really, GO BACK AND WATCH THE MOVIE AGAIN, she saves the scene by blocking the corridor laying down continuous fire and then sacrificing herself (or sparing herself from a worse fate?) by detonating a grenade and collapsing the path. Yes she died, everyone died, but she died a heroic death and was instrumental in the transition from the first alien raid on the security station Hicks and Ripley making an almost clear run to the drop-ship.

TVtropes is a badly moderated open-forum, it doesn't even pass for a Wiki, it is the internet equivalent of "I heard from the guy in a pub".

Really the trope at play here is "main character lives" which is a bit of a no-brainer. Ripley was the main lead role and Vasquez was not. Hudson, Apone, Frost, Ferro, everyone on that drop-ship, they were all dead meat the second you saw the actors' billing. Are each of them going to get a trope "Aponealways dies" "Hudsonalways dies". No, the trope is "only the lead roles survive".

Hicks got melted, Bishop got bisected, only the Main lead of the Series and The Cute Kid survived intact. Duh.

Vasquez was not "there to die" any more than anyone else who didn't get top billing.

Mistilteinn:

RC1138:

-snip-

But anecdotes aside, I'm curious about something. Since there've been a number of games that involve the US being invaded by "Evil Nation X", would women be given more options in terms of front line combat if such a scenario were to occur? I don't have any real knowledge about how the military works, but I'd assume they would, given that we'd want to have more people fighting the invaders in order to get them out sooner/more efficiently. But, numbers don't exactly win a war, either, as history as shown, so I don't know...

Probably not. Well depends. If the situation got to that point, where manpower (literally in this supposition) was so low that that option would be on the table, then Special Operation troops would have fallen by the way-side LONG before. Special Operation troops are very, very hard to have an maintain. It's something video games have somewhat... desensitized the average person to. Believe it or not, there are very, very few people in the world, much less one nation's military, that are true Special Operations troopers (Operator's, as the colloquial calls them). They are EXTREMELY expensive and time consuming to train, as they tend to require multiple and unrelated language proficiencies (Russian and German, no common thread between the two. Chinese and Spanish, ect.) Extremely high physical standards, different from a regular soldiers (regular soldiers train for quick extreme bursts, 3 days of combat, a 20 mile march at a very quick pack, small things like that). Special Operations troops typically train for LONG and slow (although not slow by any degree, slower than "norm"). The British SAS's selection final exam is a perfect example. It's a 40 mile hill march in about 20 hours. Totally different skill set and training. Simply put, a soldier from a mechanized unit cannot jump right into a Special Operations troop, nor would a Navy Seal be able to function all that well in a Mechanized Infantry company.

The combat skills are totally different too. Special Operations troops are for lightning strikes, quick and deadly. Most "Operators" rarely carry more than 130 rounds of ammunition (as an MP whose spent alot of time downrange I am keenly aware of their equipment and loadouts). If they get in a firefight that lasts more than 10 minutes, their dead. An infantry man should be able to fight on his full combat load for a day and a half minimum.

The equipment tends to be VERY different. I never had a laptop that keyed me in to a statalite uplink to control a Reaper drone to drop AtG missiles on a target. I had a radio and a map. SFO's do. Well they don't control them, but they can paint "direct" much more closely. We don't carry SOFLAMS. They cost, each about $15k. They are not handing that to a SSG in an MP battalion nor a 2nd LT in an Infantry Platoon. So SFO's cost significantly more to equip and train.

With that in mind, in a situation where the proverbial shit has hit the fan, SFO's go by the wayside. At that point you're happy to just have a stable chain of command and Infantry fighting units. So yes, you may see women in regular infantry, but not in an SFO, because there would be no SFO to speak of. And even still, still unlikely. If things have gotten to that point, surrender starts becoming an option. There is a fine line for officers to dance between fighting on, and leading to slaughter. At that point, the line starts to be very clear.

Sylocat:
Since you're using realism as the defense, tell me... what's your stance on regen health?

I don't like "health" in most games. My all time favorite title was the original Ghost Recon. God I played that game like a religion. In that game basically a single shot anywhere killed you and if it didn't, it would permanently lower your fighting capacity (give your character a limp, or a reduce accuracy things like that) That said for most games that doesn't work and is obviously not useful in COD or MOH and similar titles. Personally, my favorite health system of all time is Killing Floor's. Health doesn't regen on it's own but you have, as do your teammates, essentially health kits that you can use on yourself or others that constantly regen. So yes, you have "unlimited" health, but you actually have to DO something to be healed and you cannot heal and shot.

RaikuFA:

gamejunkiey69:
Hey, i have an idea. How about in stead of FPS's we make some FPS's? First Person Stabbers? I like a game were i'd use a knife to fight some one else with a knife instead of, As yahtzee says "Me shooting at something really far away and me dying alot"

Thief and the Elder Scrolls series have melee combat and only that.

So bows have become melee?

42:

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

Does not count.

In fairness I liked her, she was boss for the few missions (two?) you overheard her in, always there and fucking things up without breaking the ooh rah'ing marines' flow and without being overstated.
I mean yeah it's not a big part but it was still a decent character, you had to go and save her at one point but according to my memory that was because she was a marine who was downed, not because she was a woman and she was still pretty boss while she was sitting there taking on a small army with a pistol...

I agree it wasn't significant but it was still nice to see.

On this topic though I do completely agree, it's ridiculous. I play Monster's Den, the flash game and there were no female characters for the first time with the newest release (Chronicles). Garin justified this fairly with the point that those character models took him an insane amount of time to create and adding an alternate woman for each man would add huge time to release. I say fairly, he could have used female character models for different classes but this was just poor foreplanning, he initially intended to have women in and drew the male models first, time constraints appeared later as the game began to hit feature creep.

Anyway, point is it's occasionally a fair cop in those games where the character model is a HUGE time sink and they lack the resources to produce more. One designer building an entire game can be excused for wanting the release to be a few months closer to estimates. A team of well funded designers should be able to put it in though.
More importantly, as Jim pointed out, it takes VERY LITTLE effort to do it in these types of games. You just put a female face in, change the sliders a little and hey presto. No harder than a male and I agree it's stupid, it's such a petty and small thing and we shouldn't be having this discussion, games without women in should be rarities, not every major title in a spectrum.

I think you're ignoring the fact that it might be messed up to shoot women.

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

And the LAST appearance of any female combatant in any COD games for the next half decade. And her role in the game was to get shot up and carried away by the big strong many player protagonist.

Yet when WORLD WAR 3 starts and they need as many people who can carry a rifle as possible, you still don't see any female... anywhere.

And yet the last time COD did a world war they had female combatants on the Eastern front, as was historically accurate.

TWEWER:
I think you're ignoring the fact that it might be messed up to shoot women.

Aren't you ignoring that fact that I might equally be messed up to shoot men.

Treblaine:

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

And the LAST appearance of any female combatant in any COD games for the next half decade. And her role in the game was to get shot up and carried away by the big strong many player protagonist.

Yet when WORLD WAR 3 starts and they need as many people who can carry a rifle as possible, you still don't see any female... anywhere.

And yet the last time COD did a world war they had female combatants on the Eastern front, as was historically accurate.

That's one of the reasons why I wish CoD would return to WWII, there's still many things they could touch upon, playing as a female soldier in the Red Army being one

That was... disturbing to say the least.

Goldeneye and Timesplitters both had female character models and I don't remember them sucking.

Halo Reach has female characters as well. Fuck it, they have two species fighting sometimes and nobody is moaning about the bloody hitboxes.

Being male or female should be an option, but being a FPS most times you won't see much of the model. In regards to Multiplayer sessions could work better. According to Jim, it's not much trouble more so just abit more production time if anything. My theory why they have few female characters is to reduce voice actor costs. During vids and cut scenes, they probably have 1 or 2 guys voicing all the characters.

RC1138:
snip

Yes, women are generally weaker than men, and so too were the guerillas of the Viet-cong generally smaller and weaker than well fed American Marines in the Vietnam war yet they fought a stand up fight and inflicted heavy losses, so many battles were won by the Americans only thanks to the entire military force working in coordination such as artillery and air support. The battle of Khe Sanh was won by brilliant military planning of defences with artillery and carpet bombing with B52 bombers so that Khe Sanh didn't end up like Dien Bien Phu. There is a good case to be made that almost every battle is won by who has the best use of heavy artillery.

It's not about being the strongest.

I recall part of the standing orders for US Marines when they were in Iraq was "do not die". To make it clear that it was part of their mission to absolutely minimise casualties and fatalities in their ongoing battle against the many insurgency factions. Being protective is part of the deal of modern combat where missions are about minimising losses. A common creed is "no man left behind". America's involvement in the Battle of Mogadishu was all about trying to rescue a few pilots who'd crashed in enemy territory, didn't make a difference they were all men and open homosexuals were banned from service.

The thing was, it wasn't an issue for the Viet-cong or the Red army to have mixed gender units, they were highly effective against a much better trained force.

Women in frontline combat may not be realistic, but it is at least practical.

Man, Blacklight: Retribution is so much fun. I gotta go play it now.
But yeah I pretty much agree with you on this one Jim(elina?). So I don't really have anything to add.

Except you should have said "Thank the Goddess for me."

.....

You sexist.

As far as I can see women are fairly present in shooters. Call of duty (somewhat), Halo and Gears of war in particlular. But many shooters dont have female models for mmultiplayer. So the problem here is essentially some developers were too lazy to throw in extra multiplayer skins. Is it a backward attitude that can be attributed to old fashioned gender notions? No its not, its pure laziness so don't read so much into it Jim.

To all the armchair generals using their vast military knowledge to claim that women can't serve in Special Operations, don't serve alongside infantry and imply that women only end up in combat situations accidentally, here are some counter points:
- SOCOM's Cultural Support Program http://www.soc.mil/swcs/cst/index.htm
- PSYOPS/MISO/Civil Affairs are also open to females
- Female Engagement Teams serve alongside infantryman all across Afghanistan everyday

Here's a some more info: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/in-new-elite-army-unit-women-serve-alongside-special-forces-but-first-they-must-make-the-cut/2011/10/06/gIQAZWOSMM_story.html

Jim Sterling:
-snip as I'm pointing to the video's kicker-

Having tits is wonderful, am I right?

On Topic: I still love Reach for including the option to be female and I'd have loved it if TF2 had actually included the planned option for all classes to have the option to be either male or female but they removed it over worries about performance. Honestly, the change needs to happen, and I'd love for it to happen sooner than later.

Well Jim, once again, you sold me!

I went into this with a number of complaints and you rebuked all of them quite nicely!

Also, I think you finally out-creepied your gay Mass Effect 3 erotica.

Jorec:
Its funny, I remember there being exactly ONE woman soldier in an FPS game. And that was COD 4, that helicopter pilot you tried to rescue. And that's it as far as I know. Every COD after that never had a female in any kind of combat role or even in a support role.

There were female soldiers in the Russian campaign in CoD 2. Most of the other militaries were very hesitant to send women to the front lines in real life, which is probably why they weren't seen in the American or British campaigns. I'm pretty sure that's still true today in most armies, though I could be wrong.

Ya would be nice if they sucked it up and made the models and hired the voice actors... and such ya know.... but I'd rather have that money put into depth and quality for the game...but then again I do not think they can afford it anymore....

ex275w:

Mylinkay Asdara:
Yup. It sucks to have to play dudes when you aren't one. It's not that you're playing a dude, so much, it's that you have to, because they didn't give you any other option. My fiancÚ knows I have 'dibs' on any female toons when a game has them, because there are usually only a few and they are mine because I have spent years and years and years in a male avatar across so many titles that when the option to play my own gender comes up, I'm doing it. Even though that sometimes forces me to play character types I wouldn't normally favor, if they are the girl, that's me. It's a little ridiculous that we're still in this situation, as players, where we have to scavenge for our own gendered toons.

When you say toon do you refer to games that let you create your character (Bioware games) or that offer different premade characters of different sexes? (Dead Island)

I don't like the argument that game forces you to play as Nathan Drake or Kratos. It's like saying a movie forces its protagonist onto you. Since games are becoming more like movies and made with that mindset, and AAA games are risk averse we always get our Michael Bay protagonists.

Technologically it's not currently feasible to have the choice of playing as Nathan and Natalie Drake since the Uncharted games for instance are highly cinematic (Have plenty of pre-rendered cut scenes) and disc memory wouldn't be enough to fit all the content for the male and female protagonist plus the game's budget would skyrocket.

Of course this doesn't mean that there shouldn't be the choose your sex option in any game, only games that aren't highly cinematic, of which they are many.

Another option is doing it the JRPG way and have both men and women in the party without a clear protagonist among the group. Like Final Fantasy VI.

Good question. I meant pre-generated characters. In games that have multiple playable characters (toons). I realize that some stories are just about a person, and that's fine. If it's the story of Mario and his brother or Link or Cloud or whomever, then that's the story and I'm playing that person male or female. In something like, say, Borderlands for example, though you get a choice of 5 or 6 people and there's 1 who is a chick - that will be me, every time, by default, because it is THE ONLY female option of the handful we get. Same was true back in the day when Chun Li was the only female in a fighting game, then Cammie, etc. and so on. That's more what I am referring to.

I agree with your point that if the main character is the only playable character, then people know that going in and they either want to play that character's story or they don't - regardless of the gender. Then again, it would be nice if there were more of those that happened to be of the female persuasion, as it is, the vast majority are not. That is, though, a separate issue apart from what's under discussion here, which is having the option to have a female toon when the question is multiple choice.

As far as possible, I think the Mass Effect / Dragon Age games have shown that cinematic doesn't cut off the possibility of offering either or, and it is very nice to have been able to play those games as a female and be a female while doing it. They are some of my most replayed titles and that reason is certainly in the top 10 of why. I don't think that's something every single game should do - it is however a decent solution to the problem of the lack of games that center on a female protagonist's story without cutting out the considerably sized male audience or forcing them into playing chicks to play games (the way many girls for many years have been forced to play guys to play games throughout gaming's past and present).

i agree. there should be more female characters in games and in MPs. in L4D i always try to play as the female character. and im a guy. even in ME i play as a female. miss hale sounds better anyway.

My only thought so n the CM female avatars for multiplayer thing is how it will look. Seeing as Aliens has heavy... "undertones" of rape, how well is this going to go over? Its multiplayer. Its a festival for aliens to rape marines. Can't wait for it to launch & see the rage when they go nuts because of facehuggers.

MatParker116:
To be fair to MW,BF and MOH most Western Special Forces unit's don't allow women to try out, outside of Delta Force's "Funny Platoon" and some British Intelligence unit's. Also how it is that Halo: Reach (Kat, Six can be female) is the most gender equal FPS I can think of?

While true, since my mom was a captain in the paratroopers of the Israeli army I will blame that on discrimination and not impossibility. We dont need equal representation necessarily, but at least give us one member of the team.

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