Guild Wars 2 Review

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And then Arenanet adds diminishing returns to absolutely everything and diminishes the game to 1 hour sessions of doing something before you start getting punished for playing.

That's something I'd expect from Ubisoft or EA, but well, it's their call, they will be the ones to face the concequenses. Which is a pitty, because everything else is actually promising to say the least.

The amount of backlash over the DR system is pretty silly, imho.

-you're not getting punished for playing too much.

-you're not getting punished for sticking to one type of content.

what you are getting is slightly less rewards for doing the exact same specific task over and over and over.

GrandmaFunk:
The amount of backlash over the DR system is pretty silly, imho.

-you're not getting punished for playing too much.

-you're not getting punished for sticking to one type of content.

what you are getting is slightly less rewards for doing the exact same specific task over and over and over.

Actually it does have problems. I was doing the lyssa event last night where we didn't have enough people to finish it. i got maybe 4-5 events done with the surrounding events. Then i teleported to do Grenth in a different zone. So i could get one of them finished and after one part of the event failed i was immediately getting DR for events and loot. I had to wait for the event to reset and be drawn out over a long fight(took at least 30 mins) for the DR to reset, but there is no reason to have DR like this when they want to combat farming where many game requirements (i.e. legendary weapons) require a lot of farming. Not to mention being cut off from loot while participating is very demoralizing.
If they are doing this to stop say chinese gold farmers then they are going about it the very lazy way.

since loot is randomized, how would you be able to be certain that you were in fact getting immediately affected by DR?

Anywho, they have admitted that the system is currently still buggy and that it does need tuning.. but ppl aren't complaining about the implementation, it's like they're offended by the very idea of having this kind of system. even though it's perfectly inline with plenty of other design decisions they've made.

also: you can just say "gold farmer", you don't need to specify "chinese" :(

The only real problem that I have with Guild Wars 2 is the down leveling part. I don't mind being down leveled when I am questing. I hate being down leveled when I am doing my personal story. I just died like 3 or 4 times because even though I am level 11. my personal story was level 8 so therefore it down leveled me to level 8.

It would be nice if they gave players a choice if they want to be down leveled for their personal stories.

GrandmaFunk:
since loot is randomized, how would you be able to be certain that you were in fact getting immediately affected by DR?

Anywho, they have admitted that the system is currently still buggy and that it does need tuning.. but ppl aren't complaining about the implementation, it's like they're offended by the very idea of having this kind of system. even though it's perfectly inline with plenty of other design decisions they've made.

also: you can just say "gold farmer", you don't need to specify "chinese" :(

The easy way to tell is after getting maybe a few greens, blues, maybe 1 yellow or whites, you start only getting grey items like bones for a solid 5-10 groups of mobs or nothing at all, also when an event ends you can also tell because your karma, money, and exp gain is cut in half or less.

I wouldn't say in line with design decisions. They put in anti-farm decisions, when the only way to get a legendary weapon is to farm. If you have to get 525,000 karma for the gift of mastery (not even counting how much gold is required) and you get only 360-390 karma per event in the 70-80 zones that's about 1,347-1459 events (not being reduced by DR). So they don't want you to farm, but the way to achieve it is by farming. I don't think Arenanet knows that some people find farming for loot actually fun.

Nice review! That said:

Tanakh:
For me this game is the spiritual successor of DaoC, as such I came for the WvW and to a lesser degree for the structured PvP (aka battlegrounds). The PvE? Yeah, kind of reminds me of the old GW 1 grind, painful at the beggining but if you submit your soul to that torture long enough becomes kind of familiar and even comfortable.

DAoC is my unconscience standard for any mmo I try to avoid . But this one stands out in pve and pvp. I haven't seen any real structured keeptakes or massive threeserver battles though, but haven't been a lot in wvw lately (or maybe me being on gandara doesn't help either :-) ). And btw, I would support a "darkness falls"-type dungeon in wvw. Oh boy! The joy of storming in DF just when realmacces shifted...
./victory

CriticKitten:
The leveling curve and "grind"? A flatter leveling curve and more methods of gaining experience make leveling faster and easier than in most MMOs. Plus, as you point out, the death of "kill tagging" and "kill stealing", in addition to additional behind-the-scenes mechanics that provide players with bonus experience for things like killing mobs with other allied players or reviving your allies/party members, leads to players actively cooperating with each other for the benefit of everyone.

Define "more methods of gaining XP" because really, it's the exact same methods in a lazier presentation.

In old MMOs (i.e. WoW, because let's not kid around, it's the yardstick by which all other MMOs are judged) you would arrive in a town with a dozen quest givers, they would each ask one or two tasks of you:
Can you kill a dozen bandits for one NPC.
Can you kill some squirrels until a magical acorn drops, for another.
Can you collect 10 magical sparkly leaves for the Elf-ish NPC.
Can you kill some bears for their ass meat, it is delectable. I require 10 bear asses.
etc etc etc

In GW2, there's a single NPC, standing on a heart on the map who just says : Kill some bandits, squirrels and bears. Click on sparkly things. Don't bother coming back when you're done, I'll mail you some money

That's not better, that's not an improvement. There is NO story progression there. It's just grind. There isn't a continuation of the bandits you killed and tracking down their masters. There's no explanation of why you gathered the magical sparkly things, or what the purpose of the acorn is ... it's all closed off so as not to conflict with other heart-guys on the map. The only halfway decent story line is the personal story, which is great.

Or it would be, if I got more than 1 or 2 quests every 3 levels. Each link of the chain is a fun and enjoyable 5-10 minute breadcrumb that points me towards the next breadcrumb, a mere 6 or 7 hours of grinding away.

Compare to the old Defias quest lines in WoW. You had a few quests to kill bandits, steal some of their stuff, kill stronger bandits, scout the bandit area etc ... eventually leading to the bandit hideout dungeon. How did you get introduced to your first dungeon in GW2? Was it a long quest chain that laid out the backstory of what was going on there? Or was it a letter in the mail "Hey check out AC if you've got some time to kill."

GW2 is boring. I wanted this game to be fun, I really did. It's simply ... not. GW1 had the overarching mission with the group quests that you could work through. This thing has nothing outside the sparse (VERY sparse) personal storyline. Sure, the leveling is faster. I probably got to level 50 in GW2 faster than I could get to 50 in WoW. But that matters little when it feels like I spent the majority of those 50 levels watching paint dry.

I guess when you said "more methods of earning XP," you might've been talking about XP from PvP : WoW has had that for -what- 3 years now? Hardly new. Maybe you meant Vistas or PoIs : WoW has had exploration XP for ever (since the start?) Crafting? WoW has gathering professions grant XP, and specific crafting profession quests for XP. both old news. Though I guess this implementation is new. More on crafting later.

What other "more methods" did you mean?

Zeriah:
I loved the jumping Vista's, especially some of the hidden puzzles (like the hidden pirate cave in Lions Arch). I thought a lot of them were really quite clever, with some of the puzzles being massive in scope and easily the equal to several levels of a traditional platformer, taking 10-15 minutes to complete. The inclusion of Vista's and puzzles into GW2 was one of my favorite features.

But will you love them when you have to repeat them on every character? In case you missed it, 100% map completion (including all Vistas, all Hearts, all PoI *ugh*, etc) is required for the basic level of "top tier" weapons. Getting 100% completion gives you two tokens, one of which is required for each weapon. Which really sucks if you're a dual-weilding class, you get one pair and that's it. Or if you want to change weapons down the line? Nope. Sucks for you.

---

But it wasn't all bad. I will say that the dynamic grouping is a nice change. No group in invites or loot rolls. Just help people kill the giant monster and get your treasure. Good call ANet.

It's still Boring.

The crafting system seems like a step in the right direction. Cooking especially feels like someone spent a LOT of time on the discovery system. It's fun to play around, but there are WAY to many high level recipes that call for long-grey materials. You want to cook up a high level soup thing? First cook a couple dozen low-level soup stock. You can either farm old zones for minimal XP or just buy it on the AH ... tough luck. It's unnecessary grinding and padding out a game that's already 90% padding and grinding.

---

Also, unrelated gripe ... Give my elementalist the ability to freaking weapon swap.

I already hear you, "but you've got 4 elements so it's 20 powers per weapon."

No it's not. All of those powers that aren't fire are just crappy copies of the fire powers. Every other class gets two distinctly different power-sets via weapon swap*. My thief can switch mid-combat from Ranged AoE with a shortbow to double daggers for up close and personal, or to Pistol/Dagger for some nice movement powers or to Sword/Pistol for sweeping melee AoE and stun/blind.

My ele gets one weapon. If I'm wielding a staff, I can switch from good Ranged AoE with Fire to crappy Ranged AoE with Water or Earth, to decent Ranged AoE damage with Air. WTF is the point, except maybe juggling cooldowns? And no, the tiny heals or debuffs from Water and Earth don't make up for losing out on the ability to switch from Ranged to Melee, or AoE to Single Target on the fly.

*My engi doesn't get weapon-swap either, but being able to switch from pistols, to bombs or grenades, to a freaking flamethrower fits the bill.

/soapbox

lowkey_jotunn:
-snip-

Have you actually played the game?

You see I'm forced to ask because you sound like you have, but you then go and make several statements that suggest you have no clue how the game works at all.

For example, you're essentially pretending that dynamic questing doesn't exist, trying to pretend that the Hearts are the primary form of questing in the game (they're not, and they don't exist in Orr at all).

Second, are we really trying to pretend that Hearts have less "story progression" than normal kill 10 bandits quests? If you want to live in that delusion, be my guest, but I'm not inclined to. They're identical in almost every respect. Both are "grinds" of a sort with almost no story to them, except that one of them results in faster leveling than the other. Guess which one is faster (hint: it's not the one you're defending). If you're looking for story, you SHOULD be playing the dynamic events, yet your statements make it sound like you've never done a single dynamic event in the entire game. And I'm pretty sure that's impossible, because I couldn't go more than a few steps in the game without running into dynamic events almost by accident, even. So you'd have to be actively trying to avoid them to claim that they don't exist. >_>

It's nice that you've got your own opinion, but it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to pretend that your opinion is objective fact, which it's obviously not. There are some points we'd probably agree on, like personal story being stretched too thin, but it's bogged down in so much opinionated garbage that there's no discussion value here.

And I'm pretty sure I've already listed them off, but hey, you apparently want to claim that WoW currently offers XP for all of the following tasks: quest completion, map completion and exploration, kills, daily/monthly achievement completion, reviving fallen NPCs and players, crafting and gathering materials, all forms of PvP (including WvW), dungeon completion, and so on. Now my experience of WoW is limited but I'm fairly sure it doesn't offer XP for all of these things, and I know for a fact that it doesn't offer as much XP for these things as GW2 does, either. I've already proven as much numerically in this thread and others. GW2 offers no less than double the ratio of XP-to-level compared to WoW in almost every task they have in common. I do wish people would stop attacking this stance with their subjective opinions and try to pretend that their opinions override numerical fact, because I have news for you: they don't.

But will you love them when you have to repeat them on every character? In case you missed it, 100% map completion (including all Vistas, all Hearts, all PoI *ugh*, etc) is required for the basic level of "top tier" weapons. Getting 100% completion gives you two tokens, one of which is required for each weapon. Which really sucks if you're a dual-weilding class, you get one pair and that's it. Or if you want to change weapons down the line? Nope. Sucks for you.

See, here's another statement you make that makes me think you don't actually play the game, or you haven't played long enough to know what you're talking about. Jumping puzzles are not required for 100% map completion. Nor are dungeons for that matter.

Also, unrelated gripe ... Give my elementalist the ability to freaking weapon swap.

I already hear you, "but you've got 4 elements so it's 20 powers per weapon."

No it's not. All of those powers that aren't fire are just crappy copies of the fire powers. Every other class gets two distinctly different power-sets via weapon swap*. My thief can switch mid-combat from Ranged AoE with a shortbow to double daggers for up close and personal, or to Pistol/Dagger for some nice movement powers or to Sword/Pistol for sweeping melee AoE and stun/blind.

My ele gets one weapon. If I'm wielding a staff, I can switch from good Ranged AoE with Fire to crappy Ranged AoE with Water or Earth, to decent Ranged AoE damage with Air. WTF is the point, except maybe juggling cooldowns? And no, the tiny heals or debuffs from Water and Earth don't make up for losing out on the ability to switch from Ranged to Melee, or AoE to Single Target on the fly.

Yeah, here's another statement that makes me think you've not been playing long or just haven't played the game at all. I've played an elementalist and there's very clearly a difference between a water staff Ele and a fire staff Ele, and so on. >_>

They all serve significantly different roles in combat. You're obviously too busy looking only at the damage YOU deal to realize this fact, because it's actually made extremely clear what each of them do in the skill descriptions. And once you've dedicated some traits to certain preferred elements, the differences between each element only become more apparent.

A fire staff Ele is focused primary on dealing lots of damage and stacking up Burning. By comparison, a water staff Ele is basically a healer, in that their skills focus on healing allies in melee and nearby. Air staff Eles are primarily focused on creating and maintaining distance from targets while dealing plenty of damage. And an earth staff Ele focuses on defense, using skills that weaken the foe's incoming damage or block it altogether. All you're looking at is "how much damage did I do" and that isn't your only concern in combat....unless you're trying to run the entire game solo, in which case you're doing it wrong. Anyone who has played the Ele for long enough would have realized this, because it's really made rather obvious if you actually look at the skills you're given.

CriticKitten:
A fire staff Ele is focused primary on dealing lots of damage and stacking up Burning. By comparison, a water staff Ele is basically a healer, in that their skills focus on healing allies in melee and nearby. Air staff Eles are primarily focused on creating and maintaining distance from targets while dealing plenty of damage. And an earth staff Ele focuses on defense, using skills that weaken the foe's incoming damage or block it altogether. All you're looking at is "how much damage did I do" and that isn't your only concern in combat....unless you're trying to run the entire game solo, in which case you're doing it wrong. Anyone who has played the Ele for long enough would have realized this, because it's really made rather obvious if you actually look at the skills you're given.

Damn OP staff eles in WvW! They are, IMO, the most powerful profession, capable of awesome very long range AoE damage, decent healing and controlling...

Sadly i am in love with my assassin (and yeah, he is an assassin, not a thief).

Now, a elementalist that can switch to daggers for example on the fly? Would be totally IMBA.

GrandmaFunk:
The amount of backlash over the DR system is pretty silly, imho.

-you're not getting punished for playing too much.

-you're not getting punished for sticking to one type of content.

what you are getting is slightly less rewards for doing the exact same specific task over and over and over.

I got punished for leveling up, that alone is enough to prove that the DR system is bad.

Not only is it bad in essence, but it's also unrefined, because it diminishes absolutely everything rewarded, including heart progression.

How do I know? I was leveling up my elementalist and I was at the asura starting area. There 10 to 12 of the 16 hearts resolve around killing inquest and also 9/10 events are about killing inquest as well.

By the time I was at my 12th heart, I had killed so many inquest, that not only did I not get exp from them (and their events anymore), but my heart completion was terribly slow as well. Not only did they reward just a sliver, every 3d kill would not be counted at all.

Then I make a thread about it, the "fan-boys" rush to their defence and as soon as I counter-argument each of them, my thread gets delete and I also get banned from the forums.

I won't stop playing until X-Com comes out, but seriously, they deserve all the playerbase they will lose and have lost.

You can't have a game where absolutely everything is farming and then stop people from farming. It's just ridiculous. I don't want to be told neither how I earn something, nor how much I can play before the game stops rewarding me. (and let's face it, that's something that should never happen)

In the meanwhile, bots that were there a week ago are still there today. So who are they kidding?

Aposthebest:

I got punished for leveling up, that alone is enough to prove that the DR system is bad.

please explain how you were punished for leveling up, I don't know what you mean by this.

Aposthebest:

How do I know? I was leveling up my elementalist and I was at the asura starting area. There 10 to 12 of the 16 hearts resolve around killing inquest and also 9/10 events are about killing inquest as well.

By the time I was at my 12th heart, I had killed so many inquest, that not only did I not get exp from them (and their events anymore), but my heart completion was terribly slow as well. Not only did they reward just a sliver, every 3d kill would not be counted at all.

I haven't experienced anything like that. Hearts don't award the same amount of completion per kill though, and not every mob within the heart's area will contribute towards it's progression.

sounds like a bug though, because even with DR, you never get 0 xp from kills.

GrandmaFunk:

please explain how you were punished for leveling up, I don't know what you mean by this.

sounds like a bug though, because even with DR, you never get 0 xp from kills.

I was punished for leveling up, because this is exactly what I was doing. I didn't do anything peculiar other than complete hearts and do events that I found, but hey, since everything there is Inquest related, I'm obviously a bot to their eyes.

And no, it's not a bug. By the way, I didn't mean not getting exp completely, but I was only getting ~35-40% of what I would normally get. (and I know that because I did a lot of events. When I entered the zone I was getting 650-700 exp for each of them. By the time I was out I was getting 200-250. I never repeated an event more than twice and even then, only a couple of them did I do twice. But they were all inquest related)

The exp is not the point though. Heart completion is. Because not being rewarded for every 3d kill is plain ridiculous. Especially since I needed like 30-40 kills for each heart.

And of course, once again. I'm a bot, because if the game forces me to kill twice the amount of inquest needed, it just makes things worse on the DR effect that I obviously deserved.

How dare I want to explore a zone?

This is not a bug. This is just something they didn't bother tweaking. Same way that DR is active on WvW. A bug occurs when a command line does not get executed correctly. There is no command line here to begin with.

Think of it this way. Heart progression is just another exp bar. Killing the desired monster gives +X in that bar. Diminishing returns diminish absolutely everything you earn after a kill,so since they didn't bother tweaking the code, this includes heart completion.

And that's the point. You just can't treat everyone as a potential criminal,specially when they are doing exactly what the game allows them to. Which is exactly what arena.net is doing right now. They created a game that requires TONS of farming, but farming is prohibited. It can't get any more illogical than that.

General Vengeance:
Guild Wars 2 is Vanilla. It's has got to be one of the most overhyped piles of meh. I've ever had the misfortune to spend $60.00 on in a long time. It's not horrible, but the storyline, combat system, voice acting, skill sets, etc are average, predictable and safe.

There is nothing very memorable about the game, it kills time as this "Amusement game" is designed to do. You'll go from one main event to the next, but you'd be hard pressed to remember many of them along the way. So if your looking for a game that is like a comfortable pair of shoes, then GW2 is for you.

Yeah the game was a real disappointment for me. Everyone else seems to be loving it though. I don't know what to make it of it. I just found the whole thing really boring. Hit level 30 and just can't be bothered to log back in.

Maybe I'm just too old to get excited by MMOs anymore.

Aposthebest:

This is not a bug. This is just something they didn't bother tweaking. Same way that DR is active on WvW. A bug occurs when a command line does not get executed correctly. There is no command line here to begin with.

Command line? O_o

Aposthebest:

Think of it this way. Heart progression is just another exp bar. Killing the desired monster gives +X in that bar. Diminishing returns diminish absolutely everything you earn after a kill,so since they didn't bother tweaking the code, this includes heart completion.

tracking heart progression has nothing to do with kill rewards or with DR code.

I can see you're frustrated but practically everything you've said is simply incorrect. I assume this is where you'll brand me a "fan boy" and go back to ranting, so this post isn't really for you.

Anyone else reading this thread should take this person's complaints with a grain of salt, as they are not representative of reality.

GrandmaFunk:

Aposthebest:

This is not a bug. This is just something they didn't bother tweaking. Same way that DR is active on WvW. A bug occurs when a command line does not get executed correctly. There is no command line here to begin with.

Command line? O_o

Aposthebest:

Think of it this way. Heart progression is just another exp bar. Killing the desired monster gives +X in that bar. Diminishing returns diminish absolutely everything you earn after a kill,so since they didn't bother tweaking the code, this includes heart completion.

tracking heart progression has nothing to do with kill rewards or with DR code.

I can see you're frustrated but practically everything you've said is simply incorrect. I assume this is where you'll brand me a "fan boy" and go back to ranting, so this post isn't really for you.

Anyone else reading this thread should take this person's complaints with a grain of salt, as they are not representative of reality.

No, I'll call that you seem to know nothing of algorithms...you don't even understand what I mean by saying "command line", but you know that everything I say is wrong?

Yes, I am wrong, and I'm also a bot for a.net. Which is exactly why I will also quit the game. Anyone is free to take what they want out of what they read, but hey, what do I care, they will get hit for no reason from the DR sooner or later. I'll just laugh when that happens.

Sorry,but I won't react positively to someone who treats me like a potential criminal. And that's exactly how a.net treats me and every other player right now.

And hey, now that they made diminishing returns account wide. Have fun if it happens to you. You won't even be able to play with an alt until the effect wears off.

If you are ok with that, that's ok with me. I'm not the one to tell you what you will do with your time.

Aposthebest:

No, I'll call that you seem to know nothing of algorithms...you don't even understand what I mean by saying "command line", but you know that everything I say is wrong?

I've been a software developer for 11 years, I don't understand what you mean by "command line" because it makes zero sense in the context that you used it in.

GrandmaFunk:

Aposthebest:

No, I'll call that you seem to know nothing of algorithms...you don't even understand what I mean by saying "command line", but you know that everything I say is wrong?

I've been a software developer for 11 years, I don't understand what you mean by "command line" because it makes zero sense in the context that you used it in.

You said that what I mentioned is a bug.

An algorithm is a line of commands, when one of those commands does not get executed correctly, then there is a bug, which can be fixed by re-writting the code.

Something happening because that command line doesn't exist at all is not a bug, it's just that not enough work was put into something to take into account all potential outcomes.

Bad comprehension or what?

Heart completion in it's easiest and bug-free form would be to have it like a bar which is filled with each kill (or action) on the designated zone.

Which means that killing an inquest gives +X on the Y required to fill the heart meter. But since I was having DR effect on me when it comes to Inquest,those diminishing returns were also diminishing the heart completion rate.

I'm fairly certain that what I've written so far is quite easy to understand by the way. I wouldn't mind if you tried paying some attention instead of just a quick read. There is a reason why I use commas. It's not my fault if you don't pay attention to them and the way they seperate sentences.

But in any case. The diminishing returns system is a lazy way to try and stall bots instead of actually tackling the problem. (and there are many reports of bots being active for over 1-2 weeks now, without any form of ban on them)

You say you are a software developer, right?

Then please tell me, how much time does a diminishing return of this degree need in order to be made?

See? When they use that time to develop this system that punishes legit players, instead of using it to ban the bots, then they will lose all their respect they had.

Under no circumstances should a company treat its customers like potential criminals and punish them at the slightest chance. Implementing this system is just that.

You can't and should never automate a punishment system.

That's because the bots are being designed with increasingly clever models. Many of them are now designed not to farm the same mobs any more, but to hop from location to location. Of course the DR system won't stop them from doing that.

That said, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I cleared that same map you're talking about in a single day and never once ran into reduced XP problems, and I was playing along with several of the dynamic events in addition to clearing the hearts. I've also played in Orr (where 100% of the events revolve around killing Zhaitan's Risen minions, to the point where there's pretty much no other type of mob there) and didn't have XP problems there either. So you have your anecdotes and I have mine, and they're clearly contradicting each other. That leads me to believe that you're doing something radically different than me.

I agree with you that it probably shouldn't exist at all, but to be honest, I play the game with decent frequency these days and have never run into the problem you're expressing, leading me to believe you're doing something wrong.

Also, "a game that requires tons of farming"? Do I really need to keep combating this obviously false statement? Yes, there are demands required of you in order to level, just like every other RPG ever made. However, the "grind" on GW2 is significantly lower than all of its competition. To claim that ArenaNet "made a game that requires tons of farming" would require that you believe one of two things:
1) That GW2 is more "grind"y than its competition (which it isn't); or
2) That GW2 is "grind"y because of its nature as an RPG (in which case I'd ask why you bother buying RPGs if you are not fond of "grind"y experience-based systems).

Tanakh:
Damn OP staff eles in WvW! They are, IMO, the most powerful profession, capable of awesome very long range AoE damage, decent healing and controlling...

Sadly i am in love with my assassin (and yeah, he is an assassin, not a thief).

Now, a elementalist that can switch to daggers for example on the fly? Would be totally IMBA.

GW2's Thief is the way GW1's assassin SHOULD have been done. It's better in virtually every regard, and even manages to make the dagger spam strategy FUN (which was a huge failing with Assassin in GW1, the game just didn't feel that exciting using daggers).

And yes, I agree. An ele with the ability to swap weapons would be incredibly overpowered. The only way someone can conclude that the attunements aren't good enough is if they're playing the game wrong, honestly. They couldn't BE more different in flavor. >_>

CriticKitten:
Have you actually played the game?

I have, up to level 53 (iirc, might have been 52 or 54 ... but somewhere in that range). That was when the slog became too sloggy for me

For example, you're essentially pretending that dynamic questing doesn't exist, trying to pretend that the Hearts are the primary form of questing in the game (they're not, and they don't exist in Orr at all).

I ran into a few of those. Like the crafting I mentioned, a step in the right direction but a baby step at best. There was no way to find them except accidentally stumbling upon them, and there was ZERO hints as to where the level appropriate ones might be. I especially loved the dynamic quests that started at a certain level, with follow-ons 3 or 4 levels higher. There was one I remember that ended with me in Skrittsburg, 5 levels lower than any mobs around. And there were a few really annoying ones like the giant fire Ele in the Asura starting area. Though I think most of that annoyance was from terrible players who stood in fire, then waited around to get rezzed.

Also in the "baby-step in the right direction" category : downleveling. Good concept, keep all the content viable for everyone, no high level people stomping all over everything ... but it requires things be properly tuned for that level. Like the fire ele, mentioned above, there were a few quests in my personal storyline that just weren't possible at the assigned level. Maybe these are bugs that will be fixed down the road, but seems like basic problems that should have been fixed in early beta, if not internal alpha testing.

Second, are we really trying to pretend that Hearts have less "story progression" than normal kill 10 bandits quests? If you want to live in that delusion, be my guest, but I'm not inclined to. They're identical in almost every respect. Both are "grinds" of a sort with almost no story to them, except that one of them results in faster leveling than the other. Guess which one is faster (hint: it's not the one you're defending). If you're looking for story, you SHOULD be playing the dynamic events, yet your statements make it sound like you've never done a single dynamic event in the entire game. And I'm pretty sure that's impossible, because I couldn't go more than a few steps in the game without running into dynamic events almost by accident, even. So you'd have to be actively trying to avoid them to claim that they don't exist. >_>

And you accuse ME of bogging down legitimate points in too much opinionated garbage.

Back on track, yes they're different. Vastly so, observe : My low level Charr Engi does the dynamic heart quest thing to clean up a lake. Once I've killed 25 tar-slimes and clicked 25 sparkly crab traps, it's done. The lake is clean. Wrapped up and complete. Does an NPC say "and now we need to track down the source of these slime monsters ... go talk to my friend, Bob?" Nope. No follow up, no story progression. Repeat the above scenario for literally EVERY heart or dynamic quest in the game. Juicing frogs to expose stealthed poachers ... pissing off rock dogs to sabotage the centaurs ... collecting robot parts or raptor eggs or shiny things for the skritt.

Of course, not every "kill 10 bandits" quest will evolve into some epic quest chain, but the possibility is there. Dynamic quests have no attachment or relevance on the world, outside their very small envelope.

It's nice that you've got your own opinion, but it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to pretend that your opinion is objective fact, which it's obviously not. There are some points we'd probably agree on, like personal story being stretched too thin, but it's bogged down in so much opinionated garbage that there's no discussion value here.

I don't think my opinion is the end all be all and thats-that... but I'd like to believe that my slight-hyperbole-laced opinion is at least based in facts.

And I'm pretty sure I've already listed them off, but hey, you apparently want to claim that WoW currently offers XP for all of the following tasks: quest completion, map completion and exploration, kills, daily/monthly achievement completion, reviving fallen NPCs and players, crafting and gathering materials, all forms of PvP (including WvW), dungeon completion, and so on. Now my experience of WoW is limited but I'm fairly sure it doesn't offer XP for all of these things, and I know for a fact that it doesn't offer as much XP for these things as GW2 does, either. I've already proven as much numerically in this thread and others. GW2 offers no less than double the ratio of XP-to-level compared to WoW in almost every task they have in common. I do wish people would stop attacking this stance with their subjective opinions and try to pretend that their opinions override numerical fact, because I have news for you: they don't.

Yes to all of them except reviving fallen allies and possibly achievements. Rezzing would be difficult as not all classes in WoW can do that. I don't know about the achi thing, as I haven't played WoW in a few years. Might've been added, might not. I'm pretty sure they didn't have the daily/monthly achis like GW when I left, so there's one.

As for the numerics of it all, I actually agreed with you in my post. Leveling is much faster in GW than WoW. But I found it more boring. I will demonstrate this with math and real numbers. We'll use Metrica Province (the Asura starting area) in this example. A level 1-15 zone.

Metrica has 16 hearts, 16 waypoints, 23 PoI, 8 Skill Challenges, 9 Vistas and 36 dynamic events.

Completion of these gives a static % of XP. Respective to the above list: 8 ; 2.5 ; 1.5 ; 4 ; 1.5 ; 7 (assuming Gold)

16*8 + 16*2.5 + 23*1.5 + 8*4 + 9*1.5 + 36*7 =
128 + 40 + 34.5 + 32 + 13.5 + 252 = 500%

What all that means is this... If you do EVERYTHING in Metrica province, and score gold on every event, you'll earn enough XP for 5 levels. Personal Storyline quests are worth a whopping 25% per quest... but there are only 7 of them in the 1-15 range, good for 1.75 levels. 100% map completion itself is worth another 10% of a level.

That brings our total to 6.85 levels for 100% completion leaving 8.15 levels to be earned via grinding (some of which will occur naturally while you complete the hearts, events, etc) or crafting (1% per item crafted) or gathering (0.15% per swing ... just under half a percent for a 3-swing tree or ore)

When over half of your XP has to be earned via Grinding (45/55 split) I consider that a slog.

See, here's another statement you make that makes me think you don't actually play the game, or you haven't played long enough to know what you're talking about. Jumping puzzles are not required for 100% map completion. Nor are dungeons for that matter.

Did I say Dungeons? Did I say jumping puzzles? I said Hearts, Vistas and Points of Interest. All of which are required for 100% completion.

Yeah, here's another statement that makes me think you've not been playing long or just haven't played the game at all. I've played an elementalist and there's very clearly a difference between a water staff Ele and a fire staff Ele, and so on. >_>

They all serve significantly different roles in combat. You're obviously too busy looking only at the damage YOU deal to realize this fact, because it's actually made extremely clear what each of them do in the skill descriptions. And once you've dedicated some traits to certain preferred elements, the differences between each element only become more apparent.

A fire staff Ele is focused primary on dealing lots of damage and stacking up Burning. By comparison, a water staff Ele is basically a healer, in that their skills focus on healing allies in melee and nearby. Air staff Eles are primarily focused on creating and maintaining distance from targets while dealing plenty of damage. And an earth staff Ele focuses on defense, using skills that weaken the foe's incoming damage or block it altogether. All you're looking at is "how much damage did I do" and that isn't your only concern in combat....unless you're trying to run the entire game solo, in which case you're doing it wrong. Anyone who has played the Ele for long enough would have realized this, because it's really made rather obvious if you actually look at the skills you're given.

You apparently missed the point. I mentioned the healing/debuffing of water/earth in my post. I know what they do. I just don't care. They're dead weight for 90% of the leveling experience. Choosing between a healing set or debuffing set or DPS set is something *I* would like to chose. Not have thrust upon me. And it's something every other class can chose for themselves.

In a group setting or dungeon, switching between DPS and Heals could be useful. While solo, it's worthless. Actually, worthless implies zero worth, which gives earth way too much credit. Using earth powers while solo is an active detriment to your progress. Below worthless, negative worth.

Even in group settings, the heals and debuffs are suspect at best. Every class can heal themselves, and shouldn't be taking too much damage anyway. In a coordinated team that knows wtf they're doing, the lower damage from water isn't worth the light heals. In an uncoordinated team where people are getting owned left and right (i.e. every dynamic event group ever) the splash heals just aren't going to help much, compared to the brute force method of "JUST KILL IT" employed by fire.

huh ... this turned out a lot longer than I'd anticipated. C'est la vie. Hope it was a good read ;)

lowkey_jotunn:
I ran into a few of those. Like the crafting I mentioned, a step in the right direction but a baby step at best. There was no way to find them except accidentally stumbling upon them, and there was ZERO hints as to where the level appropriate ones might be. I especially loved the dynamic quests that started at a certain level, with follow-ons 3 or 4 levels higher. There was one I remember that ended with me in Skrittsburg, 5 levels lower than any mobs around. And there were a few really annoying ones like the giant fire Ele in the Asura starting area. Though I think most of that annoyance was from terrible players who stood in fire, then waited around to get rezzed.

The fire ele isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Most of the problem is the mobs surrounding it, they are the ones dropping the AoE that murders everything. So if your group is smart enough to slay those things as they spawn, the fight is no problem.

Also in the "baby-step in the right direction" category : downleveling. Good concept, keep all the content viable for everyone, no high level people stomping all over everything ... but it requires things be properly tuned for that level. Like the fire ele, mentioned above, there were a few quests in my personal storyline that just weren't possible at the assigned level. Maybe these are bugs that will be fixed down the road, but seems like basic problems that should have been fixed in early beta, if not internal alpha testing.

Unlikely. The Personal Story is much too difficult. It's one of my major complaints about the game.

Back on track, yes they're different. Vastly so, observe : My low level Charr Engi does the dynamic heart quest thing to clean up a lake. Once I've killed 25 tar-slimes and clicked 25 sparkly crab traps, it's done. The lake is clean. Wrapped up and complete. Does an NPC say "and now we need to track down the source of these slime monsters ... go talk to my friend, Bob?" Nope. No follow up, no story progression. Repeat the above scenario for literally EVERY heart or dynamic quest in the game. Juicing frogs to expose stealthed poachers ... pissing off rock dogs to sabotage the centaurs ... collecting robot parts or raptor eggs or shiny things for the skritt.

Of course, not every "kill 10 bandits" quest will evolve into some epic quest chain, but the possibility is there. Dynamic quests have no attachment or relevance on the world, outside their very small envelope.

Again, the hearts quests are not the primary quests in the game. The primary questing (and therefore what you should be comparing to) are dynamic events, which DO have a story and DO evolve beyond the first quest and, unlike the quests you refer to, can actually be failed and branch into another story entirely. Oh, and of course, they can be replayed at a fairly regular rate and pop up "seemingly at random" to add a more authentic feel to the world. Dynamic events are in every way superior to the design of standard MMO quests.

The hearts that you keep beating on are more akin to "secondary quests" in most MMOs: they're general "kill X of Y" quests that have little to no story beyond the flavor text, and absolutely no follow-up. I'm not fond of them myself, actually, but I am willing to recognize that they're basically identical to MMO quests (replacing a kill counter with a bar, essentially). I think it's being dishonest to state otherwise.

And if I remember correctly, they weren't even in the game originally. They were added after one of the early convention demos because people complained that they "had no guidance" and no idea where to go, not understanding that the whole point was to wander around and look for stuff to do. The scouting system exists for the same reason. Basically they exist to pander to people who just had no idea how to handle a dynamic world with randomly spawning event chains. So yeah, you're attacking the wrong thing. Those are in the game because of folks who are so used to being told where to go and what to kill....that dynamic events were too difficult to adjust to. Which, not to be offensive, is sort of what you're sounding like. So....if you want to blame someone, go yell at yourself in a mirror. :P

Yes to all of them except reviving fallen allies and possibly achievements. Rezzing would be difficult as not all classes in WoW can do that. I don't know about the achi thing, as I haven't played WoW in a few years. Might've been added, might not. I'm pretty sure they didn't have the daily/monthly achis like GW when I left, so there's one.

Achievements have been in the game since its release, and I'm pretty sure they were in the beta too. So yeah. :P

Also I'm glad you're willing to confirm my point, namely that GW2 does, in fact, offer more ways to get experience. I'm not even sure I named all of them in that post, either, I just rattled off the ones I know from experience.

-snip-

I must have been doing something terribly right, then, because while leveling my ranger, I was *never* under-leveled for my Personal Story. I actually tended to be about ten levels above it at all times. But then I was making a point of hitting up every dynamic event I stumbled across, and was making map completion a priority since it's easy experience.

Did I say Dungeons? Did I say jumping puzzles? I said Hearts, Vistas and Points of Interest. All of which are required for 100% completion.

But you stated that in response to someone saying that he especially enjoys the Vistas and jumping puzzles (which is rather obvious from what he says, mentioning how it takes 10-15 minutes to complete some of them....no Vista in the game takes 10-15 minutes to reach, so obviously he's talking about the jumping puzzles there). So either you misunderstood him in your original response, or yes, you WERE referring to jumping puzzles at least partially, and as previously established, they are not related to map completion. I leave it up to you to make the necessary clarifications.

You apparently missed the point. I mentioned the healing/debuffing of water/earth in my post. I know what they do. I just don't care.

Sounds like a personal problem, then, rather than a flaw in the game's design. XD

This is akin to saying "yeah, I know there's an auto-aim function in this FPS game, and no one else is having trouble with aiming, but I don't care. I just wish the aiming was designed better!" It's 100% your own opinion, and 0% fact. There are clear differences in how the attunement skills are designed that allow a player to change their strategy on the fly.

They're dead weight for 90% of the leveling experience. Choosing between a healing set or debuffing set or DPS set is something *I* would like to chose. Not have thrust upon me. And it's something every other class can chose for themselves.

This doesn't make sense. You're complaining that the elementalist is designed to have 4 different strategic builds that it can easily swap to at any time, because you don't get to pick two loadouts? I don't want 4 choices, I want 2 instead! I'm seriously headscratching at this. I can see what you're trying to say, that maybe you want to use a dagger for close range combat in some scenarios and then swap to a staff for long range damage....but the thing is, there is literally nothing stopping you from doing that outside of combat, provided you carry the weapon around, and there's no practical reason to switch weapon sets on an ele in mid-combat when the attunements do this job just fine.

In a group setting or dungeon, switching between DPS and Heals could be useful. While solo, it's worthless. Actually, worthless implies zero worth, which gives earth way too much credit. Using earth powers while solo is an active detriment to your progress. Below worthless, negative worth.

Yeah, there's never any situations in the game where you would want the ability to reduce an opponent's damage or tank through it....

Also, imagine that! The ability to have different builds is useful in a group setting! Huh, almost like this is an MMO or something. :P

Even in group settings, the heals and debuffs are suspect at best. Every class can heal themselves, and shouldn't be taking too much damage anyway. In a coordinated team that knows wtf they're doing, the lower damage from water isn't worth the light heals. In an uncoordinated team where people are getting owned left and right (i.e. every dynamic event group ever) the splash heals just aren't going to help much, compared to the brute force method of "JUST KILL IT" employed by fire.

....I'm going to assume you haven't done much dungeon-running then.

huh ... this turned out a lot longer than I'd anticipated. C'est la vie. Hope it was a good read ;)

It was, and while some points I can't agree with, I appreciate that you're at least civil in your disagreement.

CriticKitten:

Also, "a game that requires tons of farming"? Do I really need to keep combating this obviously false statement? Yes, there are demands required of you in order to level, just like every other RPG ever made. However, the "grind" on GW2 is significantly lower than all of its competition. To claim that ArenaNet "made a game that requires tons of farming" would require that you believe one of two things:
1) That GW2 is more "grind"y than its competition (which it isn't); or
2) That GW2 is "grind"y because of its nature as an RPG (in which case I'd ask why you bother buying RPGs if you are not fond of "grind"y experience-based systems).

Have you actually bothered checking the requirements for a legendary weapon?

Please do, then come and tell me that GW2 is not "grind-y".

That being said, this is not a complaint that legendaries shouldn't be hard to get, that's something I actually liked. But noone should come and tell to a player "ok, enough progressing towards that legendary for today, come back tomorrow". The DR does that. In fact, now that the DR is account wide, it's more of "enough playing for today, come back tomorrow for anything" as well.

There is absolutely no reason for this system to be in-game. It punishes legit players more than what it does bots. The bot user just has to run 2 more bots and his problem is solved. The legit player can't do anything, he can only log out for the day. Log out from the game that he payed to be able to play.

If they wanted to be true to their customers, they'd have a team dedicated to the bots, that would proceed on thorough investigations of reports and then in account and potentially even IP bans. (in assosiation with the support team as well,in order to revert any false bans)

As for "doing something wrong"...well,no,I don't...that's exactly why the DR system is bad. Because it dictates the way of play of a big part of the playerbase. I didn't do anything peculiar, just hearts and every event I found. The difference between you and me could have been a different starting point or a different route.Or maybe I managed to cap more inquest during the events since I play an AoE focused elementalist. Many possible reasons that could be assumed. It doesn't matter,as long as even one of us gets hit by it for no reason. It could have been you in another area, or just someone else. In the end of the day, it shouldn't happen, simple as that.

Aposthebest:

CriticKitten:

Also, "a game that requires tons of farming"? Do I really need to keep combating this obviously false statement? Yes, there are demands required of you in order to level, just like every other RPG ever made. However, the "grind" on GW2 is significantly lower than all of its competition. To claim that ArenaNet "made a game that requires tons of farming" would require that you believe one of two things:
1) That GW2 is more "grind"y than its competition (which it isn't); or
2) That GW2 is "grind"y because of its nature as an RPG (in which case I'd ask why you bother buying RPGs if you are not fond of "grind"y experience-based systems).

Have you actually bothered checking the requirements for a legendary weapon?

Please do, then come and tell me that GW2 is not "grind-y".

GW2 is not grind-y.

I'm well aware of the fact that legendary weapons are obscenely hard to get. I'm also well aware of the fact that they are identical in stats to stuff that I can buy or make for a hell of a lot cheaper, so you're basically wasting your time going for them unless you're REALLY fond of pretty skins.

It's also sort of pathetic that your one counter-argument against GW2 being "grind-y" is "well, look how long it takes to get this one completely optional thing!" because you know damn well you can't point to the actual gameplay and call it "grind-y".

That being said, this is not a complaint that legendaries shouldn't be hard to get, that's something I actually liked. But noone should come and tell to a player "ok, enough progressing towards that legendary for today, come back tomorrow". The DR does that. In fact, now that the DR is account wide, it's more of "enough playing for today, come back tomorrow for anything" as well.

There is absolutely no reason for this system to be in-game. It punishes legit players more than what it does bots. The bot user just has to run 2 more bots and his problem is solved. The legit player can't do anything, he can only log out for the day. Log out from the game that he payed to be able to play.

If they wanted to be true to their customers, they'd have a team dedicated to the bots, that would proceed on thorough investigations of reports and then in account and potentially even IP bans. (in assosiation with the support team as well,in order to revert any false bans)

Who are you arguing with? I already said that I don't really see the point in the DR system being there, so you're arguing with someone who agrees with you (to an extent). I just haven't ever run into the problem you're describing, and I've been playing the game somewhat frequently since Headstart, so I'm not convinced it's the massive problem you're making it out to be.

As for "doing something wrong"...well,no,I don't...that's exactly why the DR system is bad. Because it dictates the way of play of a big part of the playerbase. I didn't do anything peculiar, just hearts and every event I found. The difference between you and me could have been a different starting point or a different route.Or maybe I managed to cap more inquest during the events since I play an AoE focused elementalist. Many possible reasons that could be assumed. It doesn't matter,as long as even one of us gets hit by it for no reason. It could have been you in another area, or just someone else. In the end of the day, it shouldn't happen, simple as that.

Except that obviously you are doing something wrong, because someone who admits to playing the game frequently (probably even more than I should) has NEVER seen this problem in action. Not even in Orr, where the only things you can kill are Risen minions (which, according to your story, should mean that I'd very rapidly hit the DR cap....yet I never have).

What you're doing right now is essentially saying "my anecdote is more meaningful than your anecdote", which is sort of stupid. Anecdotes are not data. My case is no more or less meaningful than yours. The fact that you have a problem with this system when you play the game, and I have never run into it at all, just helps confirm this.

CriticKitten:

What you're doing right now is essentially saying "my anecdote is more meaningful than your anecdote", which is sort of stupid. Anecdotes are not data. My case is no more or less meaningful than yours. The fact that you have a problem with this system when you play the game, and I have never run into it at all, just helps confirm this.

No, what I'm saying is that since the system does not take into account all potential outcomes, then it's plain bad. And yes,I did notice you do agree with that.

Obviously I don't do anything wrong when I do what the game gives to me. I don't exploit and neither do I focus on one thing alone oftenly.

I've never had a problem with DR until the time came to do that asura region. (or I just didn't notice it in Orr) In either case, one time was enough to take away a big part of the fun for me and see what everyone has been talking about and how insane it is.

You said it yourself, your case is no more or less meaningfull than mine. That's exactly even once case of those returns kicking in unfairly is enough to prove that they shouldn't be there. That's the point I was making on my previous reply.

I didn't say I was doing something more or less right than you. I was saying that I wasn't doing anything wrong either. I was practically doing what the game offers. Quests and events.

I'm not exactly arguing over it with you either, I just don't see where you are going with it at the moment really. It's more of a conversation than an argument to me as well.

CriticKitten:

Aposthebest:

Have you actually bothered checking the requirements for a legendary weapon?

Please do, then come and tell me that GW2 is not "grind-y".

GW2 is not grind-y.

I'm well aware of the fact that legendary weapons are obscenely hard to get. I'm also well aware of the fact that they are identical in stats to stuff that I can buy or make for a hell of a lot cheaper, so you're basically wasting your time going for them unless you're REALLY fond of pretty skins.

It's also sort of pathetic that your one counter-argument against GW2 being "grind-y" is "well, look how long it takes to get this one completely optional thing!" because you know damn well you can't point to the actual gameplay and call it "grind-y".

Any mmo by definition is a grind. That's one big component of an mmo is to deal with a grind. For gw2 it's more of a time-based grind, since a level(on avg with higher levels) can take about an hour to get(with just standard PvE). Had they included upward leveling into the pve zone of the game then most of the grind would be gone. I remember starting in the 1-17 zone and finishing the zone with the city near it to only be level 15 and so i had to grind before I could go up again. (this happened frequently and I did almost everything along the way).

That being said most of gw2 grind-iness comes from "wanting" something. If say I wanted a full exotic armor set from a level 80 dungeon, you would have to grind the 3 explorer paths for more than a full week (if you did each path once for 60 tokens/180 per day). Yes this is a grind because there is no chance of a random loot drop that would give me the piece i want or a tradable piece to players.

Then there are karma armor pieces from temple vendors who 42,000 karma per piece. Not to mention getting 360-390 karma per event in those zones.

We already know the huge grind for wanting a legendary weapon, and they recently put in these new amulets where you need 250 of a certain gem orb (250 ruby orbs, 250 sapphire etc.)

The problem with the end-game is that there isn't much other than grinding out legendary weapons or dungeon/karma armor sets. The game is still fairly fresh, but i'm disappointed in gw2 for nothing truly special for level 80's other than going through a personal grind and making the end-game what you want it to be with very few things to go on.

Aposthebest:
No, what I'm saying is that since the system does not take into account all potential outcomes, then it's plain bad. And yes,I did notice you do agree with that.

Obviously I don't do anything wrong when I do what the game gives to me. I don't exploit and neither do I focus on one thing alone oftenly.

I've never had a problem with DR until the time came to do that asura region. (or I just didn't notice it in Orr) In either case, one time was enough to take away a big part of the fun for me and see what everyone has been talking about and how insane it is.

You said it yourself, your case is no more or less meaningfull than mine. That's exactly even once case of those returns kicking in unfairly is enough to prove that they shouldn't be there. That's the point I was making on my previous reply.

I didn't say I was doing something more or less right than you. I was saying that I wasn't doing anything wrong either. I was practically doing what the game offers. Quests and events.

I'm not exactly arguing over it with you either, I just don't see where you are going with it at the moment really. It's more of a conversation than an argument to me as well.

And I've never run into it despite having played the game for more than a month. So I'm still not inclined to think it's as big of a problem as you say it is, especially when I've cleared the map you did and never ran into that problem despite killing copious amounts of Inquest lackeys.

Shuguard:
Any mmo by definition is a grind. That's one big component of an mmo is to deal with a grind.

No, what you're describing is a quality of RPGs and RPG systems, not MMOs specifically. They are designed to encourage players to continue playing by offering "rewards" in the form of leveling, effectively the video game version of a Skinner box. This is why MMOs tend to be full-fledged RPGs or utilize RPG elements heavily in their design, as a method of artificially stretching out the length. But this is something true of RPGs, not specifically MMOs. MMOs just latched onto the trend first. Many other genres followed (like FPS games and their "leveling" to unlock content).

For gw2 it's more of a time-based grind, since a level(on avg with higher levels) can take about an hour to get(with just standard PvE). Had they included upward leveling into the pve zone of the game then most of the grind would be gone. I remember starting in the 1-17 zone and finishing the zone with the city near it to only be level 15 and so i had to grind before I could go up again. (this happened frequently and I did almost everything along the way).

That's funny, I remember consistently outleveling every single map I played in. But maybe that's because I took the very backwards and apparently quite foreign logic of clearing all the towns first (for easy XPs), then all the 1-15 maps, then the 15-25s, etc. You know, in order of level. Like you'd be expected to do in any other MMO. :P

That being said most of gw2 grind-iness comes from "wanting" something. If say I wanted a full exotic armor set from a level 80 dungeon, you would have to grind the 3 explorer paths for more than a full week (if you did each path once for 60 tokens/180 per day). Yes this is a grind because there is no chance of a random loot drop that would give me the piece i want or a tradable piece to players.

Then there are karma armor pieces from temple vendors who 42,000 karma per piece. Not to mention getting 360-390 karma per event in those zones.

We already know the huge grind for wanting a legendary weapon, and they recently put in these new amulets where you need 250 of a certain gem orb (250 ruby orbs, 250 sapphire etc.)

All of which are, as you pointed out, completely optional. So basically this is like me putting a big shiny diamond in front of you, and telling you that you can have it if you're willing to work for a few hundred hours to get it. You have every right to say no and leave at any time, you just won't get the shiny diamond. Except in this case, the shiny diamond is equally as shiny and valuable as other diamonds that require significantly less effort to obtain. So basically you're willfully choosing to do these things because you like the particular shine of that particular diamond. Sorry, but I don't consider that a fault in this game, or in any game (provided the conditions are similar, that is, you're not forcing players to grind hundred of hours for the BEST items and making that the only way to reach peak strength). No one is putting the gun to your head and forcing you to do it. "Grind" is a term generally used to refer to FORCED repetition of a task, not so much optional repetition.

The problem with the end-game is that there isn't much other than grinding out legendary weapons or dungeon/karma armor sets. The game is still fairly fresh, but i'm disappointed in gw2 for nothing truly special for level 80's other than going through a personal grind and making the end-game what you want it to be with very few things to go on.

GW2 was designed without an end-game intentionally. I still question why that is. I know they are trying to make the game equally interesting from start to finish, and I'd say they did that....but I still want something to do after I've done all the normal stuff and there's really no reason it shouldn't be there. I can only assume WvW is meant to substitute for this in part, but I'm not sure I want to ONLY do WvW once I max all my dudes out.

CriticKitten:

No, what you're describing is a quality of RPGs and RPG systems, not MMOs specifically. They are designed to encourage players to continue playing by offering "rewards" in the form of leveling, effectively the video game version of a Skinner box. This is why MMOs tend to be full-fledged RPGs or utilize RPG elements heavily in their design, as a method of artificially stretching out the length. But this is something true of RPGs, not specifically MMOs. MMOs just latched onto the trend first. Many other genres followed (like FPS games and their "leveling" to unlock content).

I was using "mmo" as a short for mmorpg, which gw2 calls itself meaning there's still a grind. So my point still stands.

CriticKitten:
That's funny, I remember consistently outleveling every single map I played in. But maybe that's because I took the very backwards and apparently quite foreign logic of clearing all the towns first (for easy XPs), then all the 1-15 maps, then the 15-25s, etc. You know, in order of level. Like you'd be expected to do in any other MMO. :P

Might have been luck for you, but i went from place to place, completing every part of the map and still came out under-leveled in every area, i didn't skip events, and i didn't run around mobs. The weird part might have been because Queensdale is 1-17 instead of the other zones being 1-15.

CriticKitten:

All of which are, as you pointed out, completely optional. So basically this is like me putting a big shiny diamond in front of you, and telling you that you can have it if you're willing to work for a few hundred hours to get it. You have every right to say no and leave at any time, you just won't get the shiny diamond. Except in this case, the shiny diamond is equally as shiny and valuable as other diamonds that require significantly less effort to obtain. So basically you're willfully choosing to do these things because you like the particular shine of that particular diamond. Sorry, but I don't consider that a fault in this game, or in any game (provided the conditions are similar, that is, you're not forcing players to grind hundred of hours for the BEST items and making that the only way to reach peak strength). No one is putting the gun to your head and forcing you to do it. "Grind" is a term generally used to refer to FORCED repetition of a task, not so much optional repetition.

Right, but there is barely any end-game so this is the only thing one can base it on. Sure it's optional as much as playing the game is optional, or logging in is optional, doing dungeons optional, aoeing mobs is optional, jump puzzles are optional. Also these guys had a much longer time to develop the game so i'm not giving them any excuses. Good games don't need excuses.

GW2 was designed without an end-game intentionally. I still question why that is. I know they are trying to make the game equally interesting from start to finish, and I'd say they did that....but I still want something to do after I've done all the normal stuff and there's really no reason it shouldn't be there. I can only assume WvW is meant to substitute for this in part, but I'm not sure I want to ONLY do WvW once I max all my dudes out.

You can't have an beginning without an end. I'll give you the fact the first 100 hrs were pretty good, but after that it becomes boring pretty quickly because there is nothing to keep players around other than personal shiny diamonds.

CriticKitten:
And I've never run into it despite having played the game for more than a month. So I'm still not inclined to think it's as big of a problem as you say it is, especially when I've cleared the map you did and never ran into that problem despite killing copious amounts of Inquest lackeys.

So,something is ok as long as it doesn't happen to you?

You are aware that this doesn't make sense, right?

As long as it happens to even a small percentage of the legit players, then it is a problem. And the amount of people who have quit due to the DR being implemented only further shows the frustration that this system creates.

Ye, you might not run into it and I'm glad you don't, that doesn't make it trivial either though.

Other than that, not only it shouldn't be there in the first place, something that you have agreed with, but it's also bugged and it has been admitted to be as well. So that means that the developers not only implemented it, but now have to waste even more time into it to tune it.

Right now,there are reports from players who haven't seen a single blue drop for over 3-4 days, because they have been flagged with DR and it never got to reset.

All this time would be better off into banning bot accounts instead and fixing bugs that actually matter. (and we both know there are many bugs who actually matter and the faster they get fixed, the better)

Once again, don't take this as trying to be offensive towards you, even though it might seem that way at some points.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view, it's just that the "it doesn't happen to me,thus it's ok" really doesn't go well with me. I've only been hit with DR once in fairly close to 300 hours of play, but that one time is enough to take away a lot of the fun for me. I don't like being severely ristricted, neither do I enjoy having to think every time I play whether I should stop playing,otherwise my account will get flagged for the next 24 hours and anything I do will be for nothing. That thought alone just doesn't give me any reason to keep on playing, since I'm not the one who decides how much I can enjoy what the game offers.

EDIT: Actually, feel free to not reply if you really can't bother with it. The game won't change out of this conversation and we've both already placed our argumentation. I'm just having some trouble understanding the basics of your way of thinking and I guess the same goes for you, we can't all be the same.

Shuguard:
I was using "mmo" as a short for mmorpg, which gw2 calls itself meaning there's still a grind. So my point still stands.

Not really, since your point was founded on a faulty misunderstanding of the term and how it came to be. Grinding was not invented by MMOs nor is it unique to them. It's popular among MMOs for the purposes of player retention, and that's why other genres are also picking up on the idea, but it is not an MMO term exclusively. Ergo claiming that "all MMOs have a grind by definition" is incorrect, since that's like claiming that all FPS games have bullet-time by definition. Yes, many of them do, but it's not a fundamental REQUIREMENT of the genre. Though I will say that making a game without it would likely be detrimental in the long run.

Might have been luck for you, but i went from place to place, completing every part of the map and still came out under-leveled in every area, i didn't skip events, and i didn't run around mobs. The weird part might have been because Queensdale is 1-17 instead of the other zones being 1-15.

Must be some awfully good luck I have then, because I've been leveling my thief and warrior lately, and neither of them are having any problem with being underleveled either. They, too, are consistently overleveled in the areas they visit. So that's three characters of vastly different profession and race that I've not had any leveling problems with. Leads me to believe something is amiss in your strategy.

Right, but there is barely any end-game so this is the only thing one can base it on. Sure it's optional as much as playing the game is optional, or logging in is optional, doing dungeons optional, aoeing mobs is optional, jump puzzles are optional. Also these guys had a much longer time to develop the game so i'm not giving them any excuses. Good games don't need excuses.

No, actually what you should be talking about in terms of "grinding" is the actual leveling curve, since the entire reason they have no endgame is their philosophy that "the entire game should be the endgame". Ergo it makes sense to look at the leveling curve, and it is indeed a heck of a lot better than most MMOs.

Also, who said anything about excuses? Did you see my earlier list in which I pointed out several flaws in the game? I have no problem pointing out a game's flaws, what I'm having a problem with is people who insist that there is a flaw where there isn't one, especially when said flaw basically boils down to a fundamental misunderstanding of what they're talking about.

You can't have an beginning without an end. I'll give you the fact the first 100 hrs were pretty good, but after that it becomes boring pretty quickly because there is nothing to keep players around other than personal shiny diamonds.

Just like other MMOs. Not really seeing your point here.

Not to mention you're forgetting the promises of regular content updates....and the holiday releases....and WvW, but yeah, once you max out your level there's just nothing to do or look forward to.

Honestly people keep saying this is a flaw, but I don't really think it is. The game uses a pricing scheme identical to any normal non-MMO video game, and for a price tag that normally buys you 4-8 hours of fairly linear single player content and maybe some decent multiplayer, provides you with hundreds of hours of cooperative MMO content and a persistent multiplayer in the form of WvW. Yes, it's not like other MMOs. That's kind of exactly the point. The whole idea was to take the genre forward, and in that respect, it succeeds in several areas. It's not perfect, nor is it a revolution, but it's a step forward.

Aposthebest:
So,something is ok as long as it doesn't happen to you?

You are aware that this doesn't make sense, right?

As long as it happens to even a small percentage of the legit players, then it is a problem. And the amount of people who have quit due to the DR being implemented only further shows the frustration that this system creates.

Ye, you might not run into it and I'm glad you don't, that doesn't make it trivial either though.

You are aware that's not what I said, right?

I ask because it seems like you just can't comprehend the fact that someone else would have a different point of view than you on this subject. Yes, I don't believe it should be there, on that topic we agree. But no, I'm not up in arms about it because I've never been affected by it and, quite frankly, I don't think it's as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

Why would I be extremely angry about something which has never affected me in the past, still doesn't affect me now, and likely won't affect me in the future?

It's not so much that I consider it trivial, it's more that I don't consider it world-ending and game-ruining.

Other than that, not only it shouldn't be there in the first place, something that you have agreed with, but it's also bugged and it has been admitted to be as well. So that means that the developers not only implemented it, but now have to waste even more time into it to tune it.

Right now,there are reports from players who haven't seen a single blue drop for over 3-4 days, because they have been flagged with DR and it never got to reset.

All this time would be better off into banning bot accounts instead and fixing bugs that actually matter. (and we both know there are many bugs who actually matter and the faster they get fixed, the better)

I don't disagree, I just don't think it's something that merits this level of rage.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view, it's just that the "it doesn't happen to me,thus it's ok" really doesn't go well with me.

Good thing that isn't my stance, then.

I've only been hit with DR once in fairly close to 300 hours of play, but that one time is enough to take away a lot of the fun for me.

....really? Because, uh, that doesn't sound healthy. Seriously, if in 300 hours of gameplay, a single aspect of the game just totally ruins the entire experience for you, then something is wrong....and not with the game.

(This is the same reason I wince at people who claim that the entire Mass Effect trilogy was ruined by ME3's ending. Because....no. Just no. If ten poorly written minutes are enough to ruin dozens, even hundreds of hours of gameplay for you, you have some serious problems. Not the least of which is that you're very, VERY easily frustrated.)

I don't like being severely ristricted, neither do I enjoy having to think every time I play whether I should stop playing,otherwise my account will get flagged for the next 24 hours and anything I do will be for nothing. That thought alone just doesn't give me any reason to keep on playing, since I'm not the one who decides how much I can enjoy what the game offers.

Honestly, this sounds like paranoia to me.

Try to look at it from my perspective. You've poured a month's time and many, many hours into a game you're enjoying, and somebody comes along and tells you they're afraid to play the game for fear of getting their account locked up for what amounts to "playing too much". You're probably going to look at that guy a little bit weirdly, especially if you've never ever seen it happen yourself, doncha think? It's not like I'm saying it doesn't happen, or that it's not a bad thing....it's that you're making statements which sound rather excessively paranoid about this sort of thing. Just play and enjoy, man, don't panic over it. I remain reasonably faithful that the problem will be fixed eventually.

Try to look at it from my perspective. You've poured a month's time and many, many hours into a game you're enjoying, and somebody comes along and tells you they're afraid to play the game for fear of getting their account locked up for what amounts to "playing too much". You're probably going to look at that guy a little bit weirdly, especially if you've never ever seen it happen yourself, doncha think? It's not like I'm saying it doesn't happen, or that it's not a bad thing....it's that you're making statements which sound rather excessively paranoid about this sort of thing. Just play and enjoy, man, don't panic over it. I remain reasonably faithful that the problem will be fixed eventually.

It's true,it might sound paranoid, but it's not.

You see, there are reports of people never hitting the DR, like you.

There are reports of people hitting it every now and then, like me. (although I might have hit it more than once and not noticing. In any case, I haven't been playing as much lately anyway.)

And there are reports of people hitting the DR within 30 minutes of play, only because they did events in Orr that are heavy in killing stuff.

Additionally,there have been reports of the code kicking in WvW within random amounts of time.

So the code is incosistent. It's not paranoia to think that after an hour and a half of doing WvW or events, the game might have flagged me for a bot and if I keep playing it's for nothing.

Now,you might say I am a little reward driven, which to an extent might be true, but since those rewards are in the game, then it's something to work towards and I'd rather they didn't have an unofficial cap that also happens to be random amongst different players as well.

It's not a "single aspect". It's something that affects every other aspect and that pops up everywhere. It affects events, it affects crafting and it affects WvW. It's more than just one aspect.

I can tolerate bugs, because I know how sneaky they can sometimes be.
I can tolerate new things taking time to come, because I know that they do indeed require time.
What I can't tolerate is being restricted and being treated like a potential law breaker. You might say I have problems with authority, but that's ok with me, because yes, I most likely have.

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