Jimquisition: Companies Exist To Make Money

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The Deadpool:
You misunderstood the analogy. Jim wasn't saying "What EA does is akin to human trafficking." He was saying that "your unwillingness to accept human trafficking as a reasonable business model proves that 'making money' is NOT an excuse for any and all behavior."

The idea is, if you want to argue that EA's business practices aren't bad ENOUGH to demand the level of complaint Jim, or whoever your opposition in said argument is, is dishing out, then DO THAT. Don't simply say "Well, they're doing this to make money, and making money is their job." and leave it at that because THAT argument is empty and vapid.

Making money isn't an excuse for bad behavior. THAT was the point of the analogy.

The difference is that it's not inherently "bad", I would say it borders along the lines of "mischievous" and "experimental". "Bad" is still something which negatively affects people in some profound way, more importantly in a way that can't be avoided. Like a drink driver who knocks over an old lady, now that's bad because the old lady didn't even have a choice.

Lets take EA for example, this is what they are indirectly doing: "Our strategy is to charge more money for less content - is this your cup of tea?"
The answer will reflect in sales/feedback/reviews and they will take their next step accordingly.

Can someone please explain to me how this is BAD? And I mean bad enough to make people scream and yell about it, comparing it to far more horrific examples of what is truly bad? It is bold, it is experimental, it is bordering on mischievous. It's nothing more than a phase, a phase which consumers have full control over when it comes to determining how long it lasts.

It's the job of the company to use whatever means is possible to increase its profit margins. It's the job of the consumer to only buy things that are worthwhile to them. When the two meet, the company is going to charge the most it possibly can, and the consumer is going to get the lowest price he possibly can. This model is broken in a lot of places (necessities, for instance), but the one place it works perfectly is in luxury goods like video games. This is because nobody HAS to buy video games, so consumers have a lot of bargaining power.

Maybe we should consider, you know, using that instead of complaining that companies aren't doing our negotiating for us. Unless you believe that EA has some moral imperative to give you video games in the manner to which you're accustomed. In which case you need to consider whether you maybe have a bit of an entitlement issue.

SNCommand:
The argument is more complex than just "companies exist to make money"

It also means that companies need to make money, if a practice is deemed unprofitable they will of course try to steer away from it, they might not be correct in their assessment, but then it's up to the consumer to buy the product or not

The argument isn't about someone having to like or even accept why a company does what it do, but it is to make someone understand why they do it

That's the rational argument but I've literally never seen that be "the argument."

100% of the time its a mob of people defending literally anything and acting like businesses not don't don't need to have moral compasses but they SHOULDN'T have them.

That capitalism is above the health and safety of all people.

You won't catch people saying "companies exist to make money" in response to a complaint and then seeing them follow it up with anything short of objectivism.

I've been on the Jim side of this for most of my life, basically a business exists to profit but they should be expected to create the maximum amount of profit with the minimum level of negative impact.

I realize "negative impact" is a vague term but you get the heart of the message.

Similarly any business willing to endanger for maximum profits should be held to damages equal to its profits. So if you flood an entire gulf with oil you should lose your business. That's the danger of doing something extremely dangerous for extreme profits, you get hit with extreme repercussions.

As it stands most extreme businesses get hit with fines equal to a few weeks or months of income. Hardly enough to care.

Ukomba:
Immoral? Please, do tell, what have they done that is 'immoral' or a practice that should be made against the law?

I would consider the step by step back peddling of what people get for what they buy is wrong. Looking at the customer as a hurdle to profits instead of a market to be satisfied is wrong.

Morality is inherently subjective, but I would say that in general when your business is in making markets instead of satisfying them you are probably doing something wrong. Is it as wrong as killing a child? No obviously not. But its destructive, you end up with more money without any improvement to the system your business exists in.

Basically any profits gained without improvements to a market are negative gains. Again subjective but you can see companies all over the place raking in record profits without adding anything. Comcast gives terrible service and rakes in massive margins, oil companies, banks, the list goes on.

All these companies do give 'something' back, usually small things, the convenience of depositing a check by phone is nice for instance. But the giving back versus the intake is so disproportionate that in the end it hurts everyone.

Not just the people who don't like it, but the people who (for whatever reason) defend it. It hurts them in ways that they are not aware of or it will eventually hurt them when it crosses that thin line between "Acceptable" and "Unacceptable".

In business the slippery slope is less a cliche and more of a history repeating truth. Give any industry enough rope and they'll hang you with it.

Lakes on fire, vegetables choking on toxic waste, dead zones, mercury in fresh water and fish, and the list goes on. The gaming industry might seem trivial in contrast but that attitude and the ever stricter grip on profits is something that shouldn't be acceptable anywhere.

But in the end I just wrote most of this to butter myself because your question is obviously written in a way that exclaims proudly "I've made up my mind. So give me fuel to flame you." There wasn't even an attempt to veil the condescension :/...

walruss:
It's the job of the company to use whatever means is possible to increase its profit margins. It's the job of the consumer to only buy things that are worthwhile to them.

In a perfect world with a perfect distribution of information this would work. However that world doesn't exist so this world view won't work.

walruss:

When the two meet, the company is going to charge the most it possibly can, and the consumer is going to get the lowest price he possibly can.

Originally this view was put forth by Publilius Syrus. "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."

Except over thousands of years we've gotten a very detailed understanding of psychology and how to manipulate people. You can easily put people in a situation that makes them feel compelled to spend more money than they otherwise would have in a fair situation.

What is a fair situation? Tough to say, everything down to how aisles are laid out, the colors of packaging, the word choice and location, all these things are part of the goal of manipulating people.

I would say a fair situation is any situation where people find a market and they satisfy it. Any situation where you create a market to satisfy is likely unfair and involves manipulation. But that's a personal belief.

Basically when Syrus wrote that the message seemed to be more that "you can't charge people more than they are willing to pay" and not "Charge everything you possibly can and milk them till they get some sense about them!"

It also probably didn't take into consideration preying on children for profits.

walruss:

This model is broken in a lot of places (necessities, for instance), but the one place it works perfectly is in luxury goods like video games. This is because nobody HAS to buy video games, so consumers have a lot of bargaining power.

This system works terribly in luxury goods and everywhere else. When a company that does things you don't like gets large enough they can start buying up companies you DO like.

Suddenly it doesn't matter if you have an opinion because all your alternatives are gone. You can name just about every single non-nintendo company that I liked in my childhood.

You know what they all have in common? EA bought them and destroyed them. Did I have any say in that matter? No. This is where that model breaks down.

walruss:

Maybe we should consider, you know, using that instead of complaining that companies aren't doing our negotiating for us. Unless you believe that EA has some moral imperative to give you video games in the manner to which you're accustomed. In which case you need to consider whether you maybe have a bit of an entitlement issue.

So basically your argument is "businesses are entitled to do whatever they want and if you have any problems with that you are a child."

Classy.

Anywho, I'd suggest going back to the drawing board. Once you can invent a system where every company I enjoy can't simply vanish tomorrow into the maw of some entity that basically controls the market I'll be on board.

Companies exist to make a return on investment of the time that was put in to create that savings.

Humans want EVERYTHING and they want it for FREE.

There exists an alternative medium for making games outside of the publisher model, I would suggest that everyone either use it or create an alternative model. The current model is kickstarter.

If you find that a companies margins are to high, find a group of people that are willing to invest and incorporate an entity that will exist at smaller margins.

I used to argue that Corporations exist to make a profit. Not anymore. I now say corporations will do as much as the consumers let them. EA does a lot of things you do not like because consumers let them get away with it.

Funnily enough, Nintendo often releases the same every year, but that does not even register with users. Yes, they are not releasing increasing amounts of DLC with every game, but they are releasing the same game over and over again. I thought that was the main gripe with Call of Duty?

In regards to EA, I think the last games I bought from the company were Deathspank trilogy and that was a few years ago. Since then, they have not made games I'm interested in playing anymore.

Capcom has stopped putting On Disc DLC on their games after Resident Evil 6. It worked with Dragon's Dogma, but it blew up in their face with Street Fighter X Tekken. They were worried that it was the DLC that made people want to avoid it. I say it's because they did not bother to make it playable to anyone who is not a hardcore fighting gamer, but that's neither here not there.

aelreth:
Companies exist to make a return on investment of the time that was put in to create that savings.

Humans want EVERYTHING and they want it for FREE.

There exists an alternative medium for making games outside of the publisher model, I would suggest that everyone either use it or create an alternative model. The current model is kickstarter.

If you find that a companies margins are to high, find a group of people that are willing to invest and incorporate an entity that will exist at smaller margins.

While I think you are wrong in the beginning I would agree that it is inevitable that publishers will die.

The best I can figure is we'll see Publishers doing what Politicians are currently doing to the internet. They'll start trying to pass laws and change the rules to make it difficult for this "new thing" to thrive.

When a new system that is difficult to control becomes a threat the natural response of most major companies is to get extremely litigious. Be it farming, internet, gaming, television, or whatever else.

malestrithe:
Funnily enough, Nintendo often releases the same every year, but that does not even register with users. Yes, they are not releasing increasing amounts of DLC with every game, but they are releasing the same game over and over again. I thought that was the main gripe with Call of Duty?

I think the reason people don't complain about Nintendo is because the Genres they are satisfying are not really touched on by anyone else.

How many alternatives to Pokemon are there?

I know for me I started becoming critical of Nintendo after Super Mario Galaxy 2. It was like nothing but happy times for me until that game and its been "the same feel" ever since.

Zelda actually has considerable changes with each game. Much more than any FPS series but I think part of that is because you can't really mix up "people" too much and still keep true to reality in shooting games that are trying to push reality as their selling point.

What other game are you thinking of? I'm sure its obvious and I missed it but for the most part most Nintendo games I've purchased have been markedly different than their predecessors.

Metroid Prime series compared to the previous Metroid games comes to mind. The Wii Donkey Kong is considerably changed from its past kin. Zelda has unfortunately changed a lot and I'd argue not for the better.

Mario seems to be the thing that really jumps out at me as Carbon Copy Town now :(. Which is a shame because it had a solid run of improvements.

Mario 1 lead into the wonder of Mario 3 which lead into even more impressive Super Mario World. Which then lead into the astounding Mario 64 and then Sunshine (VERY hard game to me) and then Galaxy.

In the middle you even had various fun spin offs like Luigi's mansion, Super Mario RPG, various Mario Sports games. Heck even Pokemon had a ton of different spin offs. Snap being my favorite and the Mystery Dungeon series being way better than most people probably know.

I didn't know you were into scat, Jim...

I think you are misunderstanding those people when you say that they think that what they are doing is a good cause. It's not that what they are doing is moral as it is morality is not a factor in this. That businesses are not really human so we shouldn't really put it on human standards. Like a predator or a robot, if a lion killed someone you probably wouldn't blame the lion because "hey that's its nature" likewise if a company does something amoral not many will fault it because "hey its in a companies nature to get money by any means, it has to supply its investors somehow."

You and Moviebob say that people are not judging companies by the standards of good people but that's the point, companies are inherently amoral. Only used for the necessity of the economy and their investors and no real artistic and moral purpose.

Or at least that's how I interpret it.

theultimateend:

aelreth:
Companies exist to make a return on investment of the time that was put in to create that savings.

Humans want EVERYTHING and they want it for FREE.

There exists an alternative medium for making games outside of the publisher model, I would suggest that everyone either use it or create an alternative model. The current model is kickstarter.

If you find that a companies margins are to high, find a group of people that are willing to invest and incorporate an entity that will exist at smaller margins.

While I think you are wrong in the beginning I would agree that it is inevitable that publishers will die.

The best I can figure is we'll see Publishers doing what Politicians are currently doing to the internet. They'll start trying to pass laws and change the rules to make it difficult for this "new thing" to thrive.

When a new system that is difficult to control becomes a threat the natural response of most major companies is to get extremely litigious. Be it farming, internet, gaming, television, or whatever else.

Beginning? Please clarify.

nightazday:
I think you are misunderstanding those people when you say that they think that what they are doing is a good cause. It's not that what they are doing is moral as it is morality is not a factor in this. That businesses are not really human so we shouldn't really put it on human standards. Like a predator or a robot, if a lion killed someone you probably wouldn't blame the lion because "hey that's its nature" likewise if a company does something amoral not many will fault it because "hey its in a companies nature to get money by any means, it has to supply its investors somehow."

You and Moviebob say that people are not judging companies by the standards of good people but that's the point, companies are inherently amoral. Only used for the necessity of the economy and their investors and no real artistic and moral purpose.

Or at least that's how I interpret it.

Lion's aren't run by people. That was a terrible example.

Business are run by people and should be held to human standards.

Objectivism is a terrible world view. Even Rand became depressed after she thought it was the truth.

The idea that companies are supposed to be (and inevitably will be) amoral leads to situations like "The Jungle". If you haven't read that book I highly recommend it.

We MUST hold businesses to the same standards as we hold one another, period.

EDIT: I just re-read your post and now think you were just trying to explain the viewpoint not support it. I'll keep what I originally wrote but wanted to clarify that I think I misunderstood you :p. My apologies.

aelreth:
Companies exist to make a return on investment of the time that was put in to create that savings.

aelreth:

Beginning? Please clarify.

Sorry I used the wrong word. What I meant was that that isn't what companies are doing. Getting any ROI and even a reasonable ROI is understandable. But when your margin is hundreds of percent (the case with some businesses) there is a problem.

Basically a lot of money is removed from the market without any of it going towards anything worthwhile. Capitalism feeds off a generous exchange of revenue between businesses and people. If businesses pull out much more than they put in the imbalance results in most of the problems you see in the world economy right now.

Basically companies SHOULD make money (otherwise they wouldn't exist) but the ferocity with which they make money is the issue. You COULD turn a huge profit by using child labor in Thailand to make your products.

You really really shouldn't.

But if your only working off "what is and isn't legal when returning on investment" then really why not?

People can't let the law be the only qualifier for business when the laws are basically being written by businesses :P. However I'm digressing WAY too hard.

So yeah my point was just that I don't think that businesses doing what you said in the beginning is the problem, its the lengths they'll go to do that which is.

...I still don't know why I used the word "wrong". Honestly, that was a slip on my part.

People don't seem to understand that even though a company has the RIGHT to utilize predatory business practices, doesn't mean they SHOULD. Good video.

Jennacide:
Glad you got to this one Jim, I've always hated this strawman argument. I've never understood how so many people will defend bullshit business practices with this weak defense. "Capitalism is about making money." Well, no, not really. Capitalism is about offering the best service for a competitive price. Not "How badly can we gouge users for the least amount of effort?"

It's especially bad when you see the pro-capitalists posting long laments in threads about THQ going bankrupt. Or even when EA closes down a studio. Because the former, to me, is capitalism done right: bad game company makes bad games, bad game company makes bad decisions, bad game company go away. The latter is the end result of the kind of sociopathy these "pro-capitalists" are generally arguing, since cutting weight appears to be a big part of this "capitalist" ideal.

jklinders:
We are not talking about drug trafficking or human trafficking. We are talking about video games. Do try to keep up and pay attention in class M'kay? You are knocking down the same strawmen

The Deadpool:
No, most of the business practices of game industries aren't THAT bad. But the point is that "this is profitable" or "consumers are stupid enough to pay for this" has never been an ethical nor legal excuse for accepting a business practices. Why should the game industry be any different?

Do try and keep up. I responded to your post BEFORE YOU POSTED IT....

Ukomba:
Immoral? Please, do tell, what have they done that is 'immoral' or a practice that should be made against the law?

That is the crux of the argument in like... Every other video he has done in the past few months?

And hey, it's okay if you think their practices are ethical. But the argument here, today, is that wanting to making money ISN'T AN EXCUSE. You may excuse it in DIFFERENT ways if you'd like, but giving them a motive isn't going to change a damned thing.

Aaron Sylvester:
The difference is that it's not inherently "bad",

NOTHING is "inherently" bad. It's all subjective.

And we can argue the ethical details of large game company's practices. Hell, that's what Jim HAS been doing.

The argument in THIS video is that giving them a MOTIVE does not absolve them of their guilt. Yes, you can defend them in OTHER ways, but saying "they did it to make money" isn't a valid argument.

THAT is the point of this video. Which ultimately a LOT of people have missed.

walruss:
Maybe we should consider, you know, using that instead of complaining that companies aren't doing our negotiating for us.

But complaining IS part of the negotiation. Public perception is important to companies...

theultimateend:

Sorry I used the wrong word. What I meant was that that isn't what companies are doing. Getting any ROI and even a reasonable ROI is understandable. But when your margin is hundreds of percent (the case with some businesses) there is a problem.

Basically a lot of money is removed from the market without any of it going towards anything worthwhile. Capitalism feeds off a generous exchange of revenue between businesses and people. If businesses pull out much more than they put in the imbalance results in most of the problems you see in the world economy right now.

Basically companies SHOULD make money (otherwise they wouldn't exist) but the ferocity with which they make money is the issue. You COULD turn a huge profit by using child labor in Thailand to make your products.

You really really shouldn't.

But if your only working off "what is and isn't legal when returning on investment" then really why not?

People can't let the law be the only qualifier for business when the laws are basically being written by businesses :P. However I'm digressing WAY too hard.

So yeah my point was just that I don't think that businesses doing what you said in the beginning is the problem, its the lengths they'll go to do that which is.

...I still don't know why I used the word "wrong". Honestly, that was a slip on my part.

The publishers are providing the capital (vast sums of savings) to developers (that provide the capital) for those employees needed to create these large games, and thus they need a return based on the time and risk. That money that is being given to those developers is actually debt, owed to the bond & stock holders.

Perhaps debt is the true problem.

The riskier the loan shouldn't the interest rate be much higher?

Dexter111:
It's not even a "true" argument. Companies exist for whatever fucking reason their owner deems they should exist for.

Well, the problem is that most publicly traded companies don't have any tangible owner. They are owned by hundreds or thousands of people, many of them not even knowing exactly what stocks they are holding at the moment,just buying and selling based on automated market analysis, with the expectation that their value will increase.

There is literally no one in EA who could decide that right now they have an important goal than profit maximalization. If any CEO would try to claim that, they would get fired by the Board of Directors.

While Oculus is ruled by Palmer Luckey, and Valve is owned by Gabe Newell (and even Nintendo's stocks are mostly held by a single family), EA, Activision and Ubisoft are just automated machines designed solely to increase their own value.

I don't always agree with you, Jim, but in this case I do. I really really do. Thumbs up.

Also, I've got a better title for your game idea: Dead Space 4 - Shitstorm Zero-G

theultimateend:

Suddenly it doesn't matter if you have an opinion because all your alternatives are gone.

Right, but that's not my point. My point isn't that people think they are entitled to EA games. My point is that people think they are entitled to luxury products at all. You literally don't have to play video games. You can read a book, or watch television, or board games, or a million other hobbies. Unlike with food, shelter, etc, the market should not be forced to provide you with ways to entertain yourself, and they certainly shouldn't be forced to do so according to some faux-moral code of how to distribute their products.

I'm not calling people who act otherwise childish, exactly. I'm just saying that they believe they are entitled to something they've done nothing to earn. Get a good-sized boycott going for one or two quarters and I guarantee that DRM will be gone. Period. That will not be a problem anymore. But it'll never happen. And it's not that it'll never happen because people are sheep, or because of some issue with corporate structure, it's just that people don't believe it's their job to negotiate with producers anymore. Once again, this isn't about something you can't live without. You can go 4-6 months without buying new video games and it will have a limited effect on your quality of life. But as gamers we'd rather whine about how we're mistreated than take steps to correct it.

I don't know if it's because we have too much disposable income, and we don't consider budgeting that important, or it's because the vast majority of people are okay with the byzantine anti-piracy and pay systems that companies like EA use, or what exactly it is. I know that I'm not going to spend $60 on half the content for Dead Space when I might one day lose the ability to play it. I'm the biggest Starcraft fan this side of Korea, but I'm sure not going to buy Wrath of the Swarm, because they're trying to sell us multi-player in installments, and it's not finished yet and it's terrible. And you know what? My life is relatively the same as it would be otherwise. Do I wish I could play those games? Kind of. But I figure eventually it'll get bad enough that those things will cut into profit margins, and then I'll be able to, and be able to play in the way I want to play them.

I was with Jim up until On Disc Locked Content. When will people stop with this bullshit! Location of content is not relevant! If it's good, it's good, if it's bad, it's bad be it on disc or on iterwebs! It's not like on disc stuff is made prior to the game launch and content you actually have to download later. In majority of cases both are made during the main production phase and team shifted to next project when the game is finished relegating just a bit of time towards patching up bugs later.

Murder is bad whether it happens in center of the richest town or in the poorest slums, even if we don't like to see it as such. Feeding hungry people is good thing be they out next of kin or our enemies even if we, for our personal reasons, don't see it as such. Don't attack On Disc Locked Content because the solution is not to improve the game, it's just to make you download more. You still have to pay for it, it's just that you have to download it too now. This feels like chasing a mouse around the kitchen while people get sick because food you get from suppliers is spoiled.

We, the gamers, as a group are retarded. Mob mentality at its finest, or worst if you wish. That means that people who have high soapboxes steer that ship. Don't steer it into the fucking rocks you blithering idiot! Fight the battles that are worth fighting, not some pathetic distractions!

The Deadpool:

walruss:
Maybe we should consider, you know, using that instead of complaining that companies aren't doing our negotiating for us.

But complaining IS part of the negotiation. Public perception is important to companies...

I agree, but a lot of the people I see complaining, and even Jim in this case, seem to think that we should throw a hissy fit, and then the company owes it to us to get its act together. We tell the company what they're doing wrong, and we tell the consuming public what the company is doing wrong, sure. But then we back that up by making purchases based on how we want companies to act.

scw55:
I agree.
I believe in ethical business practise for the consumers and manufacturers.

Yes, by being a dick you may make a lot of money now. But by being not-a-dick you ensure income for the future, long term. For some reason (which is strange), human beings like people who are not dicks. And tend to hate dicks.

It's funny. Steam used to get a lot of slack for Hats. And stupid keys to unlock chests. Now they're eclipsed by everyone else.

I suppose the main difference there is that TF2 is no less enjoyable if you don't buy items. The trade system is really enjoyable to use, even though you know Valve are the ones who are really winning. But try playing ME3 multiplayer (when it works) without purchasing item packs.

nightazday:
I think you are misunderstanding those people when you say that they think that what they are doing is a good cause. It's not that what they are doing is moral as it is morality is not a factor in this. That businesses are not really human so we shouldn't really put it on human standards. Like a predator or a robot, if a lion killed someone you probably wouldn't blame the lion because "hey that's its nature" likewise if a company does something amoral not many will fault it because "hey its in a companies nature to get money by any means, it has to supply its investors somehow."

You and Moviebob say that people are not judging companies by the standards of good people but that's the point, companies are inherently amoral. Only used for the necessity of the economy and their investors and no real artistic and moral purpose.

Or at least that's how I interpret it.

If it's doing nothing but amorally servicing itself by sucking everything else dry, why should we keep it around? Companies are created by people to serve people (thus the moral judgement), and as long as they do it well and cause no harm, there's no problem. Clearly, the customers who defend them care more about the service they receive than the cost they pay; everyone has their own personal line.

I think animals in nature are exempt because they serve the ecosystem. Corporations have a pretty shaky history in that regard. The company itself is not to blame, it's the people with their hands on the plug who don't pull it when they should, as long as they keep making profit.

And on the topic, companies do exist to make money. Some have other goals too but even companies (owners, investors, fill it yourself) that don't want to hoard gold and spend all to do charity want to make money because if they don't they don't have anything to help with! For that matter they are entitled to do whatever they want.

It's up to the customers to slap them in the face when they do stupid things. If you make them lose money instead of making it, they will stop doing that. Plain and simple! Yes, it's stupid excuse if it's made to plead the case that action of companies are good. But it's simple truth, and if some action that makes them money goes unpunished, they will go along doing it again and again and again. That part is dead simple. We are the market, we are the force that judges their actions. They are out there to make a buck. It's in the shops that we clash and ultimately decide what is right.

Could I get a copy of that Dead Space 4 script, Jim? I want to send it to a friend.

OT: Good episode. Just like the rest. Keep up the good work. :D

...

I'm serious about the script, though.

I fucking love you so much right now, Jim.

Every time I see this bullshit excuse, I just cringe. I can't believe how many people are that stupid. I can't believe how many people think making money and way you want to try to make money is okay because they're supposed to make money. I've said the same thing you said in this video to people as well; you can make money without being a dick. Companies like Rockstar and Valve have tons of loyal fans because they go about making money in ways that aren't about screwing people up the ass, and they make way more money in the long run because of it. Meanwhile, what are EA, Capcom, Activision, and Ubisoft doing? Canceling this, shutting down that, slashing sales expectations (or just not meeting them because they refuse to slash them, hello Capcom). Maybe if they tried not being dicks about making money, they might find that they end up making more of it like Valve does.

Also, I really love how most of this video is footage of Rayman Origins, because the "companies exist to make money" patrol was out in full force to defend the completely bullshit Rayman Legends delay. Companies do exist to make money, so why are you defending a company that did a move that fucking guarantees they will make less of it?! Rayman Legends is now going to be ground into the dust by Grand Theft Auto V and anyone who doesn't see that is stupid. If anything else, you should be just as mad at Ubisoft as the people who wanted to play the game because "companies exist to make money" and Ubisoft is actively trying to not make money.

Was anyone else half expecting "Thank god for poop" at the end of this video?

The Deadpool:

jklinders:
We are not talking about drug trafficking or human trafficking. We are talking about video games. Do try to keep up and pay attention in class M'kay? You are knocking down the same strawmen

The Deadpool:
No, most of the business practices of game industries aren't THAT bad. But the point is that "this is profitable" or "consumers are stupid enough to pay for this" has never been an ethical nor legal excuse for accepting a business practices. Why should the game industry be any different?

Do try and keep up. I responded to your post BEFORE YOU POSTED IT....

Ukomba:
Immoral? Please, do tell, what have they done that is 'immoral' or a practice that should be made against the law?

That is the crux of the argument in like... Every other video he has done in the past few months?

And hey, it's okay if you think their practices are ethical. But the argument here, today, is that wanting to making money ISN'T AN EXCUSE. You may excuse it in DIFFERENT ways if you'd like, but giving them a motive isn't going to change a damned thing.

Aaron Sylvester:
The difference is that it's not inherently "bad",

NOTHING is "inherently" bad. It's all subjective.

And we can argue the ethical details of large game company's practices. Hell, that's what Jim HAS been doing.

The argument in THIS video is that giving them a MOTIVE does not absolve them of their guilt. Yes, you can defend them in OTHER ways, but saying "they did it to make money" isn't a valid argument.

THAT is the point of this video. Which ultimately a LOT of people have missed.

No, no you did not respond to my post. Or at least not the part that mattered. Ergo you are NOT keeping up. I said that the power in this equation is on the consumer's side. We hold the wallet. Not the companies. Then you divert on some weird tangent bringing up illegal and harmful practices like human trafficking or drugs as if they have any bearing on this. Wrong. You can't simply throw up a strawman, knock it down then pretend you weren't doing just that by saying "hey they aren't as bad as that, but..." and expect to get a free pass on this. Like Jim, you are making correlations between non legitimate and harmful illegal things and companies that sell luxury items to willing consumers and you don't see the logical fallacy of this? Get real please.

A fair price is what I am willing to pay for it. If the price for a luxury item is too high or in some way "unfair" I am free to exercise my prerogative to not pay it. Immoral? What's immoral here. They are saying in advance what you are purchasing. If they advertise one thing and give less then there is a problem. But as long as I am free to vote with my wallet, I will consider the equation to be perfectly fair. As the consumer the power is mine to pay or not. Fewer people are getting my money than ever these days. I consider this more their problem than mine.

I certainly won't whinge about it where it will never be read by the players in question. The publishers don't give a shit what you or I think, or even Jim for that matter. They care about what we pay for. Stop paying them and see if something different happens if they upset you mortally so very much. Of course you shouldn't consume their product at all because pirating the game just sends the message that they are making the right game but not putting enough shackles on paying customers.

Ryan Hughes:
Actually, the idea that companies exist to make money is relatively new. Adam Smith would have found the notion horrifying, as he would likely have said that companies exist to further moral sentiments and examples. In fact, in America you used to have to prove that your company benefited its community at large or they would revoke your incorporation.

Beginning in the 1800's, the idea the companies exist to make money began, but it really did not begin to take hold until the post-war era, reaching its zenith in the Regan era.

wow what are they teaching in school nowdays?

i think rockafeller, andrew carnegie and a number of other of business titans, whos sole purpose in life was money over anything, a consequence of which many of our nations infrastructure was built, would like to have a word with you.

that fact that the word monopoly was over and one with decades before regan was even born and i find the notion that somehow the regan era is now seen as the height of greed is good.

study some history.

I agree that there is no "proof" that the second hand market negatively effects the new game market, but it's not a stretch to think that if that used market didn't exist to provide a 5 dollar discount on a brand new game, that the consumer that buys a slightly used game for a measly 5 dollar savings, wouldn't just drop the rest of the cash and buy brand new.

I think Steam is lighting the way. It's not about margins, it's about volume. Drop your prices, sell more games. It's that simple. You'll make more money in the long run, and you don't run the risk of (as Ricotello (sp) so stupidly put) "devaluing the IP"

Jimquisition this week was really weak.

I agreed with everything Jim said, but the episode was bad and the arguments also weren't very good. But most of all, is was a boring episode to watch.

DiMono:
I think you're missing the point of the "companies exist to make money" argument. It's not that we should bend over and accept whatever they do, it's that they're free to try whatever they think will make them more money, and we get to decide whether to put up with it.

No, if that's the case, the people using "companies exist to make money" are missing the point of "companies exist to make money." People use it as a "you are not allowed to complain so shut the fuck up" button and nothing more. It's as dumb as "If you don't like it, don't buy it". No shit, Sherlock! I already knew that. Doesn't mean I don't have the right to complain about it, and telling people that they can't complain about it because they should just not buy it if they dislike the practice is completely stupid. Everyone who thinks like that needs to sit down this video and watch it until the message sinks in: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win

Quietly not buying something is not going to solve the problem. It's going to make the problem worse (I want Radical Entertainment and Prototype back too). Whether or not you choose to boycott or not, it's still very important to vocalize your complaints. So everyone who pulls out one of these cheap "arguments" that is basically them telling you to shut up... They are the ones who need to shut up because they are dumb.

theultimateend:
That's the rational argument but I've literally never seen that be "the argument."

100% of the time its a mob of people defending literally anything and acting like businesses not don't don't need to have moral compasses but they SHOULDN'T have them.

That capitalism is above the health and safety of all people.

You won't catch people saying "companies exist to make money" in response to a complaint and then seeing them follow it up with anything short of objectivism.

Another excellent way of putting it.

Zachary Amaranth:

Jennacide:
Glad you got to this one Jim, I've always hated this strawman argument. I've never understood how so many people will defend bullshit business practices with this weak defense. "Capitalism is about making money." Well, no, not really. Capitalism is about offering the best service for a competitive price. Not "How badly can we gouge users for the least amount of effort?"

It's especially bad when you see the pro-capitalists posting long laments in threads about THQ going bankrupt. Or even when EA closes down a studio. Because the former, to me, is capitalism done right: bad game company makes bad games, bad game company makes bad decisions, bad game company go away. The latter is the end result of the kind of sociopathy these "pro-capitalists" are generally arguing, since cutting weight appears to be a big part of this "capitalist" ideal.

Agreed. There's a massive difference between EA buying up companies like Westwood and Pandemic, running them into the ground, and then dissolving them into nothing while continuing with their own existence to do it to another company later, and THQ running itself into the ground and no longer existing because of it.

THQ deserves no sympathy, they did it to themselves with terrible business ideas. Westwood and Pandemic, they do deserve sympathy, they did pretty well for themselves until EA came along and destroyed not themselves but these other companies with their meddling.

walruss:

The Deadpool:

walruss:
Maybe we should consider, you know, using that instead of complaining that companies aren't doing our negotiating for us.

But complaining IS part of the negotiation. Public perception is important to companies...

I agree, but a lot of the people I see complaining, and even Jim in this case, seem to think that we should throw a hissy fit, and then the company owes it to us to get its act together. We tell the company what they're doing wrong, and we tell the consuming public what the company is doing wrong, sure. But then we back that up by making purchases based on how we want companies to act.

Perhaps, but that isn't so much a reflection on commentators like Jim than it is on their audience. Unfortunately it is the audience that must spend differently if anything is to change. And right now they won't. For a lot of gamers the "byzantine anti-piracy and pay systems" (great line btw) is outweighed by their desire to experience a new game. It isn't so much that they like how publishers treat them, but rather that things aren't so bad they will stop buying the product.

I suspect that in deciding what to put into his video Jim thought it best to address the largest obstacle to change: gamers who say companies can do what they want without looking closely at the deal they are being offered.
And he did: "You may be happy to buy DLC that was already sold to you because it was on the disc. You may think getting less content at higher prices is acceptable... That's fine... But at least understand that just because you're cool with it doesn't mean everyone should be..."

It makes sense when you're not looking at the small, specific group of people that use the phrase in the exact way you described.

i.e. when you're not defaulting to the exaggerated, unrelenting anti-corporation side of the argument.

scw55:
I agree.
I believe in ethical business practise for the consumers and manufacturers.

Yes, by being a dick you may make a lot of money now. But by being not-a-dick you ensure income for the future, long term. For some reason (which is strange), human beings like people who are not dicks. And tend to hate dicks.

It's funny. Steam used to get a lot of slack for Hats. And stupid keys to unlock chests. Now they're eclipsed by everyone else.

they're HATS

they are for the purpose of BEING ON HEADS

we're talking about exploitation and you're angry at the hats in a now free to play game

walruss:

The Deadpool:

walruss:
Maybe we should consider, you know, using that instead of complaining that companies aren't doing our negotiating for us.

But complaining IS part of the negotiation. Public perception is important to companies...

I agree, but a lot of the people I see complaining, and even Jim in this case, seem to think that we should throw a hissy fit, and then the company owes it to us to get its act together. We tell the company what they're doing wrong, and we tell the consuming public what the company is doing wrong, sure. But then we back that up by making purchases based on how we want companies to act.

Then we as consumers should begin directly speaking to the developers with our wallets, the publisher will happily cannibalize it's adopted child developers to survive.

[sarcasm]But Jim, corporations are people and you want to deny them their human rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness through making huge piles of cash by any means! You're starting to sound like some sort of filthy socialist, 99%-er that hates America and the free market![/sarcasm]

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