108: Heart-wrenching Hentai

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

LordOmnit:
No, you fail to see the sociological viewpoint of deviance, being not conforming to societal norms, whereas CRIME is blatant violation and disregard for societal norms and laws. It doesn't mean that violation and non-conformation are different, it means that the degree (which is inherent in the sense of the differing degrees of the words) as to which one "commits" these acts.

Crime is a violation of societal laws. Laws and norms do not necessarily line up identically.

Wikipedia actually has a mention of siblings, separated from childhood, being sexually attracted to each other as adults. [Look up 'genetic sexual attraction']

Likewise, it also has a few notes regarding people who are raised together having a decreased incidence of sexual attraction- the Westermarck effect.

Quite right, but they are along the same lines, otherwise the laws wouldn't have been instated to begin with, or am I wrong and laws are drawn out of a hat. And as for your magical recognition thing that doesn't exist, that proves that nature has no qualms about allowing incest, otherwise there would be something that helps prevent it from happening. That doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong, but continuing on that point seems pointless with you. That is unless I abandoned all reason and decided, "Hey, I'll just agree with the fanatic. And try and drink gasoline too!"

Also, considering that we cannot do a sampling of people with incestuous feelings to any degree of accuracy, calling on us to find people that meet a very vague definition of sanity is all but impossible. I could ask you to find a similar list of people that are insane who had feelings towards a sibling but didn't force themselves on them. But you'd be just as unable to do so. We really only hear stories about the ones that *were* abusive. Most of the ones who weren't abusive wouldn't even mention it though, because rarely would it be acted on. And for those that did have mutual feelings, and expressed them, they'd probably be rather unwilling to talk about it too, simply because of the sort of kneejerk response they'd get. That doesn't mean that they *don't* or *can't* exist though.

LordOmnit:
Quite right, but they are along the same lines, otherwise the laws wouldn't have been instated to begin with, or am I wrong and laws are drawn out of a hat. And as for your magical recognition thing that doesn't exist, that proves that nature has no qualms about allowing incest, otherwise there would be something that helps prevent it from happening. That doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong, but continuing on that point seems pointless with you. That is unless I abandoned all reason and decided, "Hey, I'll just agree with the fanatic. And try and drink gasoline too!"

You're about as sharp as a bowling ball. I say that laws and norms don't always line up identically, and you claim I'm saying that laws are arbitrary. I say that a genetic response has as much to do with one's own consideration of what is family as shared heredity, and you claim this proves there is no natural aversion to incest. Go read a book or fuck your sister or something, just stop posting.

I think that we've exhausted this and myself (i.e.- 2 AM is Omnit's bedtime), so I shall let this rest until morning. Or the afternoon maybe, considering it's already morning here. Oh well.

Eolirin:
Also, considering that we cannot do a sampling of people with incestuous feelings to any degree of accuracy, calling on us to find people that meet a very vague definition of sanity is all but impossible. I could ask you to find a similar list of people that are insane who had feelings towards a sibling but didn't force themselves on them. But you'd be just as unable to do so. We really only hear stories about the ones that *were* abusive. Most of the ones who weren't abusive wouldn't even mention it though, because rarely would it be acted on. And for those that did have mutual feelings, and expressed them, they'd probably be rather unwilling to talk about it too, simply because of the sort of kneejerk response they'd get. That doesn't mean that they *don't* or *can't* exist though.

Do you really believe your own bullshit? You really think there are all these blissful incestuous relationships going on that we don't hear about?

Oh, darn... too bad I don't have a sister, then I could piss you off to no end. Ew, sicko, what are you trying to implant in me?
And I wasn't claiming that laws are arbitary or that you were doing so, I was merely trying to make the point that you essentially agreed with me in terms of normativity and laws being in the same lines, the last bit was sarcasm.
And as for the part about no natural aversion, did you... did you agree with me? And then say I was dumb? Wow, I think that that requires an awkward silence.
...
...
...
Okay, that's all you get.

Efftee:
Do you really believe your own bullshit? You really think there are all these blissful incestuous relationships going on that we don't hear about?

Okay, you are really pissing me off. It is POSSIBLE for these things to happen. You seem to hold the belief that they won't, or that it will be exploitative every single time arbitrarily.

LordOmnit:
Oh, darn... too bad I don't have a sister, then I could piss you off to no end. Ew, sicko, what are you trying to implant in me?
And I wasn't claiming that laws are arbitary or that you were doing so, I was merely trying to make the point that you essentially agreed with me in terms of normativity and laws being in the same lines, the last bit was sarcasm.
And as for the part about no natural aversion, did you... did you agree with me? And then say I was dumb? Wow, I think that that requires an awkward silence.
...
...
...
Okay, that's all you get.

I wasn't agreeing with you. Try rereading what you and I wrote seven or eight times, you'll get it eventually.

All these? Wait, I think I rather specifically mentioned that such things would be really rare. But allow me to reiterate that. Such cases are not very likely, lets say exceptionally rare even, for a wide range of reasons. That doesn't mean they don't exist. And it doesn't mean they *can't* exist.

If you weren't saying that laws and norms tend to be along the same lines, then what erronious information were you trying to send out into cyberspace?

LordOmnit:

Efftee:
Do you really believe your own bullshit? You really think there are all these blissful incestuous relationships going on that we don't hear about?

Okay, you are really pissing me off. It is POSSIBLE for these things to happen. You seem to hold the belief that they won't, or that it will be exploitative every single time.

Things that are improbably are still possible. It doesn't mean you're going to see a rubber band expand on its own or someone spontaneously combust anytime soon.

LordOmnit:
If you weren't saying that laws and norms tend to be along the same lines, then what erronious information were you trying to send out into cyberspace?

You can violate a norm without breaking a law. If I walk up to you in a restaurant and fart on your dinner, I'm not breaking any laws, but I'm sure as hell violating some societal norms.

Ball lightning. Case closed about improbability.

Okay, sorry if I sounded like I was saying they are the same, I'm just saying that... actually, I think that is specifically illegal in some states and counties. One of those weird-laws-type-things. Anyways, I wasn't trying to say that laws and norms are identical, but they certainly flow from the same source, so of course their waters are going to be similar.

Oh, and g'night.

I suppose part of the problem you two are having deals with the fact that you seem to be operating on different definitions of *natural*. There's no genetic imperative that deals with incest on a hereditary level. There's a definite imprinting that occurs when you're dealing with the raising of children that seems to limit their attraction to the people they're being raised with, but such an imprinting doesn't occur on the basis of a "family" level. In fact the conception of family, at least as we tend to view it, doesn't even enter into it at all. A child of even 4 or 5 is more than aware of who is or isn't a blood relative, but they're still just as unlikely to become attracted to someone who's been raised with them. In that sense, there's a certain wiring in the brain that deals with the effects of being raised together with someone. It doesn't however, have to do with the physical makeup of the person, just with the environmental effects of being around them during that period. If we step a tiny bit further back, nature itself says nothing about incest, because once we look away from human beings, we can rather easily find at least one example of species that has absolutely no problem with it. The Bonobo.

You might get hit by indecency, public nuisance, possibly assault [there's a few cases I've seen in LN that were indirect, though I can't recall if they actually won...], trespassing if you try it again once you get kicked out...

Efftee:

Things that are improbably are still possible. It doesn't mean you're going to see a rubber band expand on its own or someone spontaneously combust anytime soon.

Neither are actually physically possible. Quantum mechanical effects aren't capable of affecting items that are that big, and that's the only way you'd actually see anything even remotely resembling that sort of reaction. Newtonian physics, while not accurate on a subatomic level, rather effectively models reality on the level we function in, and it basically says that both effects aren't simply improbable, but rather are absolutely impossible, at least in the way you're implying they occur.

The German couple caused such a stir I'm quite amazed nobody linked it earlier...
I have to add that I'd be surprised if this is the only one out there.

I've been involved in debates like this before and they never end really. Those other discussions have taken place on anime forums and have included various titles of games, manga and anime. In Japan there is a whole slew of these kind of fictional relationships, a lot of romantic series are concerned with either a childhood friend or a not-blood-related 'sibling' they've been living with for the last years for some reason or other. In Japanese they literally call another 'sister/brother' in these kind of relationships. In general those situations feel creepy enough for most, but here and there they actually use a full sibling. It's a rather common theme really, I've seen a few dozen series which included this and am rather tired of it really. Out of the top of my head: Angel Sanctuary and Ayashi no Ceres both deal with it, AS quite directly btw, it's the main plot point, both are quite wide-spread series with large fan bases. Contrary to popular opinion both these series are written by women and some 95% of their fans are also females (in the East and West), so the male-fantasy excuse doesn't work.

In the West relationships like these have grown to become such a taboo that most people won't or even can't think about them on any kind of level, even a conceptual/theoretical one. As much as we like to say we've outgrown taboos, they're still here. Anyone want a discussion on the word nigger? You're likely to get your head smashed in if someone overhears you. It's funny that a time in which showing an exposed ankle could get you excised from your family people also married their cousins, it does seem we run in circles don't we? The circles just don't match across different cultures.

In the end, it's just that I hate Efftee's knee-jerk reaction. Everything should be debatable, there's just too much stuff that's been blown away over the years, what used to be inappropriate then or now, might merely become impractical. The only real problem we can have with incest is the negative results of inbreeding, but once we're able to fix that, what then? For now though, I agree that incest is a disgusting practice, yet I still wonder if this is social programming, but like rapist-porn, there's a definite market for it, and it hasn't been banned per-se in a lot of places. Japan also has the age of 14 as limit for consensual sex, why don't we start ragging on that one too?

Vortigar:
The only real problem we can have with incest is the negative results of inbreeding, but once we're able to fix that, what then? For now though, I agree that incest is a disgusting practice, yet I still wonder if this is social programming, but like rapist-porn, there's a definite market for it, and it hasn't been banned per-se in a lot of places. Japan also has the age of 14 as limit for consensual sex, why don't we start ragging on that one too?

So, outside of inbreeding, you wouldn't find anything wrong with, say, a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter (in Japan, I guess)? Really? Honestly?

Efftee:

Vortigar:
The only real problem we can have with incest is the negative results of inbreeding, but once we're able to fix that, what then? For now though, I agree that incest is a disgusting practice, yet I still wonder if this is social programming, but like rapist-porn, there's a definite market for it, and it hasn't been banned per-se in a lot of places. Japan also has the age of 14 as limit for consensual sex, why don't we start ragging on that one too?

So, outside of inbreeding, you wouldn't find anything wrong with, say, a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter (in Japan, I guess)? Really? Honestly?

Personal feelings of revulsion or whatever are irrelevent for anything and everything that doesn't directly concern you. The only real things that are wrong with a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter are genetic inbreeding and the possibility that the girl was forced into sex against her will. Both are good reasons for trying to stop that kind of thing from happening. Someone thinking that it's disgusting is not a good reason to stop it from happening. Otherwise you end up with black people being locked in prison for having a consensual, loving relationship with white people. And it's precisely because taboos are so transient that we cannot condemn others for the sole reason that they're doing things we find reprehensible, when we lack actual evidence why such things would have a negative impact on the rights and responsibilities of the party in question. Basically, that question is meaningless.

And you're still relying on the fact that you find incest disgusting as a basis for your entire argument. Assuming that only unbalanced pedophile rapists are interested in incest is just ridiculous. Assuming that there is no possibility of cases of willing, consensual incest between people of different ages, is ridiculous. And assuming that rape and statutory rape are one and the same is, again, ridiculous. To clarify, sex with people under the legal age of consent, relations between teachers and students, and other such relationships aren't illegal because it is only possible that the older, or more responsible party coerced the younger, or less responsible party into the relationship. They are illegal because the chance of coercion is too great. As such, consensual relationships and sex in the afformentioned situations are illegal, but not immoral. The fact that people may find it disgusting does not, and cannot, come into the equation.

Vortigar:
The German couple caused such a stir I'm quite amazed nobody linked it earlier...

I did note the German couple earlier, just so you know (didn't actually put a link in there, but I figured that Efftee was capable of copy and paste).
And thank you Break. I never could have worded it so well as you.

image

This thread is officially on notice. If y'all can't talk about having sex with siblings without insulting each other and being vile, we'll go ahead and lock it and break out the ban hammer. /mod.

Oh crap! Everyone scatter! Sorry about any insulting, I was probably just getting a little too... too... something.

I believe the explanation for H-games having increasing amount of detail to story is a lot simpler than a refinement of gamer taste: it is the emotional attachment to sex. I know I pretty much called the sky blue, but hear me out.

I'm sure each and every one of us knows a person, or persons, be them friends or even ourselves, that say that they cannot have sex with a person they didn't love, or at least like. Fronts of "I'd hit anyone, anywhere, anytime" are pretty obvious. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that while one could have sex with another person regardless of social relation, that the ultimately more fulfilling sex would come from those that one knows and admires, covets, adores, seeks to protect, etc. As for the definition of "lust," I'd file that with encompassing the all-general feeling of sexual urge, neither positive nor negative in connotation.

With that in place, the end conclusion that not even social recluses can deny the allure of social contact, and H-game stories have been developing due to that.

Now, Kana: Little Sister.

Having not played it, I'm going to go the extra mile and give those who support it the benefit of the doubt that Kana has, at its core, a well-written story. Why then, is it important that the player have the option to have sex with Kana at all? This is really asking a lot, due to the incredible one-sidedness of their relationship even before factoring in the brother/sister angle. And as much as my above argument seems to already answer this question, it does not address specific relationships at all. Much in the same way I'd never have sex with my best friend, it's a similarly large leap of faith for me to do the same to my younger, dying sister. Seeing as how there's a lot of rumbling about sex on this thread already, this has to be an central issue that must be addressed.

Without a proper answer, I can't say that the developers had intent past "deep masturbatory aid" (and even then I'd say it just blends the archtypes of "dying person with nothing to lose" and "sister") towards developing Kana. What I'm also proposing that if this is the case, the lack of an option at all to have sex with Kana would have been the overall better choice.

Break:
Personal feelings of revulsion or whatever are irrelevent for anything and everything that doesn't directly concern you. The only real things that are wrong with a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter are genetic inbreeding and the possibility that the girl was forced into sex against her will... And you're still relying on the fact that you find incest disgusting as a basis for your entire argument...

Allow me to play devil's advocate here and suggest that perhaps FT is disgusted because said 14-year old girl doesn't understand the implications of intercourse and its effects, and that as the girl's father he has a close relationship with the girl already and has an edge in coercing said girl to commit acts.

Or that the relationship between the two is non-consentual. Perhaps the child does know and the resulting act traumatizes or frightens her?

I believe FT uses the disgust factor as his argument because the reasons for him being disgusted seem obvious to him? It could also just as well be social stigma, but you can't dismiss the reason for the reaction so easily.

That said I believe the age-gap part is mostly social stigma. We know that in the past 14 years was the age for marriage for most girls around the world. However, our culture puts a certain level of understanding and maturity on girls over the age of fourteen, not to mention the idea of an old person skin touching young person skin I can see as having a disturbing effect on most. Not to mention the image in a majority of people's heads is probably that of the old pedophile. Sitting on a park bench eyeing little girls with bad intent. Snot running down his nose greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes. Drying in the cold sun Watching as the frilly panties run. Using his crafty steel-trap old-dude mentality to mentally trick the young-ins to his lair (where he might rape and eat them or something.)

As far as incest goes, yeah it's a social thing. Is there any other reasons other than a dirty gene-pool to not commit incestuous acts? I feel there is, but I can't think of what it is now. If I come to a conclusion I'll comment.

People need to go read "Time enough for love" that book really throws a monkey wrench into one's ideas about incest and age differences. The only real reason the incest taboo exists is because of the increase in genetic anomalies such relationships create. Outside of prepubescent children age difference probably has more to do with the fact that individuals will end up dying long before their partners do. What happens when people are able to live for hundreds or even thousands of years, or even a theoretically indefinite period of time? As another poster said what happens when you can engineer out any and all genetic defects given the proper tools?

I suppose that we will be divided into a few groups: one believes in steadfastly holding onto ancient beliefs arbitrarily, another is going to be *too* liberal with their new *freedom*, yet another group will hold to old beliefs to a degree, another will be kind of liberal with the freedom to choose, and the last will be able to consider all options before making an intelligent decision.
Hang on a second, I just named off how people are in the world anyways...

Whoops! Wrong thread. I thought this had something to do with the article about H-games, but it appears to be the Dr Efftee Show, instead.

Seriously, though, Efftee seems to be confusing instinctive revulsion with disgust, which is a learned trait. There is no instinct preventing inbreeding amongst animals, any more than there's an instinct against homosexual behaviours. In fact, both are quite common in the wild, especially amongst hominids.

V.Sixenth:

Break:
Personal feelings of revulsion or whatever are irrelevent for anything and everything that doesn't directly concern you. The only real things that are wrong with a 50-year-old man having sex with his 14-year-old daughter are genetic inbreeding and the possibility that the girl was forced into sex against her will... And you're still relying on the fact that you find incest disgusting as a basis for your entire argument...

I believe FT uses the disgust factor as his argument because the reasons for him being disgusted seem obvious to him? It could also just as well be social stigma, but you can't dismiss the reason for the reaction so easily.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I'd like to point out that this bit here - that the "reasons for disgust seem obvious to him" - is exactly what I was trying to say. Yes, I'm uncomfortable with the situation he used as an example; hell, who in their right mind wouldn't be? But drawing more attention to the feelings of revulsion raised in ourselves, over the potential of human rights abuse, is putting far too much weight on arbitrary matters. Surely you agree that if we were to go around assuming that other people will know what we mean if we only provide half the argument, then we'd never get anywhere?

Going back and warping what Yahtzee said some for his Resident Evil 5 spiel, I'd say that in the same respect this game requires doing something you find distasteful or unnerving (i.e.- your younger sister is dying and growing much closer than a normal relationship is, what are you going to do about it?), and does have some artistic (or otherwise) value there. Sure, we all know that incest is socially wrong, and the fact that she's dying isn't helping things, but if you are so quick to deny your DYING YOUNGER SISTER (in words of FT slightly warped) a lot of things to the degree that you would be like, "RAR! WRONG, NO WAY IN HELL! GRRRR!" then you are just flat out [something along the lines of something insulting, but I'm not going to risk further possibiltiy of a ban hammer. Too bad these types of issues tend themselves toward something like that when it gets to people fighting from extreme ends]. Basically I'm saying that in that kind of situation, you can't be too quick to judge anything.

I'm not going to get into this argument. Suffice it to say that I take my hat off in support of LordOmnit and Eolirin ^^

Thank you Nii-san(!), even though I'm nowhere near as eloquent as my compatriots.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here