177: Be Still My Beating Heart

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I know someone who reads 'To-Love-Ru'. When I told him there was a game, he was quite eager to find out the details.

Just seem's odd to me personaly. I'm not bashing anyone who plays it or anything like that, just saying my own opinion on this game. Besides, the amount of hentai stuff I've watched or gotten from friends pretty much stops me from making anymore judgements.

Age of consent in Japan is 13. It doesn't state in the article whether "underage" is by 'western' values or by theirs. How underage are we talking here?

Crazily enough, not all cultures are exactly the same. Japan seems to be fairly...well, liberal with the whole sex thing. Not saying it's a good thing, not saying it's a bad thing, it's just different. I might pick up the game just to see what all the fuss is about.

"I love cultural/moral relativism when it means I get to grope kawaii little girls."

(Yes, ad hominem rocks.)

Though to be honest, I think it's less a case of actual cultural relativism and more a case of "Japan can do no wrong".

I want my Somali Female Genital Mutilation Simulator, damnit...

In the words of Tristan from Yu-Gi-Oh abridged "Burn the witch!"

Ace of Spades:
In the words of Tristan from Yu-Gi-Oh abridged "Burn the witch!"

A sex game featuring Duke Devlin would be beyond all moral reproach, but alas, this game seems to lack his redeeming presence...

"Joey, what's sex?"

anti_strunt:

Ace of Spades:
In the words of Tristan from Yu-Gi-Oh abridged "Burn the witch!"

A sex game featuring Duke Devlin would be beyond all moral reproach, but alas, this game seems to lack his redeeming presence...

"Joey, what's sex?"

HAHA, very true!

anti_strunt:
"I love cultural/moral relativism when it means I get to grope kawaii little girls."

(Yes, ad hominem rocks.)

Though to be honest, I think it's less a case of actual cultural relativism and more a case of "Japan can do no wrong".

I want my Somali Female Genital Mutilation Simulator, damnit...

I point out cultural differences and suddenly I'm a japanophile. Leaps of logic much? Of course Japan can fuck up and I find most of their stuff really quite disturbing. Never was one for the whole tentacle rape thing. I don't even agree with having the age of consent that low, in fact I think it's rather strange personally. I was merely drawing out the point that underage for us does not mean underage for them.

Amnestic:

anti_strunt:
"I love cultural/moral relativism when it means I get to grope kawaii little girls."

(Yes, ad hominem rocks.)

Though to be honest, I think it's less a case of actual cultural relativism and more a case of "Japan can do no wrong".

I want my Somali Female Genital Mutilation Simulator, damnit...

I point out cultural differences and suddenly I'm a japanophile. Leaps of logic much? Of course Japan can fuck up and I find most of their stuff really quite disturbing. Never was one for the whole tentacle rape thing. I don't even agree with having the age of consent that low, in fact I think it's rather strange personally. I was merely drawing out the point that underage for us does not mean underage for them.

Actually I wasn't addressing you directly, so no offence taken, I hope. I was being somewhat facetious anyway.

EDIT:
The "game" seems to suck pretty badly too, if you want to play it for anything other than the sexuuu, but that's usually the case with sexploitation...

EDIT x2:
Pointless blah-blah removed.

Playbahnosh:
I won't say I'm surprised of the reactions. Two totally different cultures, and both try to measure the other with their own moral system....which is quite impossible and results in reactions like these.
Don't condemn other cultures just because they don't measure up to your "standards". For you, it may be okay to play Dead Space with a grin on your face, blowing and stomping grotesque monsters to bloody chunks, spraying guts all over the place. For somebody else, it may be okay to grope teenage-looking girls. It's not that different if you think about it.

You must admit though, some Japanese practices do border on the odd. Consensual activities, I couldn't care less about, but stuff like "sharking" and a few other things done on subways that are probably too impolite to mention in public forums; they are different. I also feel that laughing at an overly gory death in a game is completely different to abusing someone in real life. Hell, some people get really offended when you grope them. Characters in game usually don't tend to cry themselves to sleep at night because they're missing their head.

EpicFailGuy:
Characters in game usually don't tend to cry themselves to sleep at night because they're missing their head.

Actually I think I could point you towards a certain Japanese title...

anti_strunt:

EpicFailGuy:
Characters in game usually don't tend to cry themselves to sleep at night because they're missing their head.

Actually I think I could point you towards a certain Japanese title...

I said usually because I knew there'd be one. :(

what ive never quite understood with all these japanese names are why they repeat the same word twice, f.x. "doki doki" and......"sushi sushi"or some shit.

just wondering

edit: "to the one who posted about cultural standards and stuff"

the difference between killing monsters that want to eat youre face and groping under-age girls is that when youre killing these monsters youre doing something good.

while groping underage girls just leaves them emotionally disturbed and is considered a crime.

Be a pervert...OUTSIDE?
WUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT! jk lol :D
well, at least they are all M-rated or higher, right?
...
right? :(

Novan Leon:

GyroCaptain:
We found a witch, may we burn her?

That reminds me, wasn't there a very different way to determine whether someone was a witch or not? Hmm... :P

You can see if she weighs the same as a duck.

Ace of Spades:
In the words of Tristan from Yu-Gi-Oh abridged "Burn the witch!"

That was actually a parody of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Amnestic:
Age of consent in Japan is 13. It doesn't state in the article whether "underage" is by 'western' values or by theirs. How underage are we talking here?

Crazily enough, not all cultures are exactly the same. Japan seems to be fairly...well, liberal with the whole sex thing. Not saying it's a good thing, not saying it's a bad thing, it's just different. I might pick up the game just to see what all the fuss is about.

I tend to find this fairly weird as Porn was banned after WWII by the United States.

Considering that the propagation of our entire species revolves around sex, I think that the typical "western" culture that hides at the very mention of various fetishes is the one behaving unnaturally.

The "western" (never really understood that term, the earth has north and south as well you know) culture's moral evolution regarding sex seems to still be at the level of pre/early-teens, where they giggle and shuffle away nervously at anything that would be simply labelled as adult entertainment.

Time to grow up.

Looks like a game worth checking out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doki_Doki_Majo_Shinpan!

When you climax do you have to yell at the DS? We've already got to blow on the damn thing.

Hopefully Yahtzee will review this game soon.

Wait... did the Escapist really headline an article about a softcore porn game? Bravo Escapist, you have proven your courage. And started a flame war apparantly.

For the record, Yahtzee already knows about this game. Check out his Drake's Fortune review, dated 27 Feb 2008. "There are games for people who feel up girls on Japanese subway trains..."

Mystery00:
Considering that the propagation of our entire species revolves around sex, I think that the typical "western" culture that hides at the very mention of various fetishes is the one behaving unnaturally.

The "western" (never really understood that term, the earth has north and south as well you know) culture's moral evolution regarding sex seems to still be at the level of pre/early-teens, where they giggle and shuffle away nervously at anything that would be simply labelled as adult entertainment.

Time to grow up.

Yes... When, oh when, are we going to rise to the level of maturity where we start mass-producing cartoon pornography near-invariably featuring awkward, socially stunted teenage schoolboys having tons of sex with hot and willing (and underage) maidens without ever having to bother with serious, adult relationship issues? Infantile escapism ahoy...

I very much hope you aren't claiming that Japanese society has anything to teach anyone in terms of sexual "maturity".

Playbahnosh:
I won't say I'm surprised of the reactions. Two totally different cultures, and both try to measure the other with their own moral system....which is quite impossible and results in reactions like these.

Rather than being creeped out or disgusted by Japanese culture, I'm more fascinated and interested. It's entirely different from what I got used to, and it's quite the experience to learn about other cultures. If you really want to enjoy something from another part of the world, you have to turn off your moral compass and social boundaries. If you see Doki Doki Majo Shinpan! for what it is, a game, you may actually have some fun. (and I don't mean that in a pejorative way)

Don't condemn other cultures just because they don't measure up to your "standards". For you, it may be okay to play Dead Space with a grin on your face, blowing and stomping grotesque monsters to bloody chunks, spraying guts all over the place. For somebody else, it may be okay to grope teenage-looking girls. It's not that different if you think about it.

Even without a "moral compass" (which I believe makes humanity what it is)the game is stupid and the premise is even more ridiculous. It's interactive underage porn, nothing more and nothing less. I'm also a bit concerned that people think this is a major part of Japanese culture and heritage. I'm no Japanese historian but I'm pretty sure this isn't a major activity that a vast majority of Japanese people participate in. Yeah I know violence and murder are bad as well and so are violent games but this should not be an "interesting" part of other cultures.

Mystery00:
Considering that the propagation of our entire species revolves around sex, I think that the typical "western" culture that hides at the very mention of various fetishes is the one behaving unnaturally.

The "western" (never really understood that term, the earth has north and south as well you know) culture's moral evolution regarding sex seems to still be at the level of pre/early-teens, where they giggle and shuffle away nervously at anything that would be simply labelled as adult entertainment.

Time to grow up.

Uh huh. Wow, games like these are just sad. Yes people get "nervous" about sex because it's a serious thing. Showing hesitation etc. about the act of sex is a GOOD thing. My friend dropped out of high school because he has a son now. Was that a "liberal" decision? Yes. Was it responsible decision? Of course not. Games like these make a joke out of something that can become a very bad situation. Of course it's not always bad but sex cannot be taken lightly.

anti_strunt:
Yes... When, oh when, are we going to rise to the level of maturity where we start mass-producing cartoon pornography near-invariably featuring awkward, socially stunted teenage schoolboys having tons of sex with hot and willing (and underage) maidens without ever having to bother with serious, adult relationship issues? Infantile escapism ahoy...

I very much hope you aren't claiming that Japanese society has anything to teach anyone in terms of sexual "maturity".

You mean entertainment is supposed to deal with serious issues instead of being escapism? Entertainment is there for entertainment, no matter the subject.

Codeman90:
Uh huh. Wow, games like these are just sad. Yes people get "nervous" about sex because it's a serious thing. Showing hesitation etc. about the act of sex is a GOOD thing. My friend dropped out of high school because he has a son now. Was that a "liberal" decision? Yes. Was it responsible decision? Of course not. Games like these make a joke out of something that can become a very bad situation. Of course it's not always bad but sex cannot be taken lightly.

Following this train wreck of logic you end up also saying that violent forms of entertainment make a mockery of causing physical harm to your fellow man. If your friend is so susceptible to it, I hope he doesn't watch many action movies for the sake of those around him.

You have both clearly shown my point, even though you wouldn't think twice about a game featuring death and destruction, as soon as the subject matter takes a sexual turn you're up in arms.

On top of that the more information there is floating around about something, the better informed a decision a person can make. Keeping things secret or taboo, from kids especially, only drives their curiosity to dangerous levels where they end up making stupid mistakes.

So yes, an open but equally informed culture is better than a scared and uninformed one.

Mystery00:

anti_strunt:
Yes... When, oh when, are we going to rise to the level of maturity where we start mass-producing cartoon pornography near-invariably featuring awkward, socially stunted teenage schoolboys having tons of sex with hot and willing (and underage) maidens without ever having to bother with serious, adult relationship issues? Infantile escapism ahoy...

I very much hope you aren't claiming that Japanese society has anything to teach anyone in terms of sexual "maturity".

You mean entertainment is supposed to deal with serious issues instead of being escapism? Entertainment is there for entertainment, no matter the subject.

The more information there is floating around about something, the better informed a decision a person can make. Keeping things secret or taboo, from kids especially, only drives their curiosity to dangerous levels where they end up making stupid mistakes.

I most certainly agree that keeping sex a secret taboo is a bad idea compared with proper sex education. Sweden has such education, and last I checked had a far, far lower rate of teenage pregnancy than the US. Though it should also be pointed out that porn is never a viable substitute for real sex ed.

However, that was never my point. My point was that it was utterly absurd to ascribe to Japan a high level of sexual maturity based on cartoon porn, such as the example being reviewed here.

While I do not have any statistics on Japanese pornographic production, I think it's safe to say that products such as this one constitute a fair percentage of that production. Let us then compare a product like this with "normal" porn, which usually just involves a pair of adults having sex before a camera - basic, uncomplicated, ordinary.
In contrast, consider a culture of pornography where the act of sex is mystified and cluttered with the most absurd and artificial fetishisms; connected with either immature awkwardness or embittered misogyny; and of course most egregiously: portrayed by cartoons. In this case, we have cartoons involved in some sort of underage, cryptosexual, tickle-my-secret-place-Elmo-game, supposedly for supernatural reasons.

You tell me which approach is the more mature.

(Yes, I am aware that this is something of a straw man argument. My point still stands, I think: from what I've seen, based on a fairly substantial sample, Japanese cartoon porn is usually either infantilised or deeply misogynistic, and neither approach speaks of any great "maturity".)

Besides, surely the height of sexual maturity would mean that people only had real sex, instead of languishing in front of substitute pornography?

anti_strunt:
I most certainly agree that keeping sex a secret taboo is a bad idea compared with proper sex education. Sweden has such education, and last I checked had a far, far lower rate of teenage pregnancy than the US. Though it should also be pointed out that porn is never a viable substitute for real sex ed.

However, that was never my point. My point was that it was utterly absurd to ascribe to Japan a high level of sexual maturity based on cartoon porn, such as the example being reviewed here.

While I do not have any statistics on Japanese pornographic production, I think it's safe to say that products such as this one constitute a fair percentage of that production. Let us then compare a product like this with "normal" porn, which usually just involves a pair of adults having sex before a camera - basic, uncomplicated, ordinary.
In contrast, consider a culture of pornography where the act of sex is mystified and cluttered with the most absurd and artificial fetishisms; connected with either immature awkwardness or embittered misogyny; and of course most egregiously: portrayed by cartoons. In this case, we have cartoons involved in some sort of underage, cryptosexual, tickle-my-secret-place-Elmo-game, supposedly for supernatural reasons.

You tell me which approach is the more mature.

(Yes, I am aware that this is something of a straw man argument. My point still stands, I think: from what I've seen, based on a fairly substantial sample, Japanese cartoon porn is usually either infantilised or deeply misogynistic, and neither approach speaks of any great "maturity".)

Besides, surely the height of sexual maturity would mean that people only had real sex, instead of languishing in front of substitute pornography?

I never actually said anything about maturity, I think you misunderstood what I meant by "grow up", that was directed at people's response to such games rather than the level of maturity the games themselves have.

Besides that, most entertainment isn't supposed to be mature.

As far as the hentai production is concerned I think it's as varied as any other form of media; you really can't categorise it all with a single sentence, so while your statement is true for some of it, it's completely wrong for a lot of it.

That aside, this particular game seems to be more of a time waster. You can find many similar flash games around the net, which hardly have anything to do with causing arousal.

They're simply there to kill time, with a small sexual twist. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody in their right mind would let it influence them in any way.

So I really think you're seeing something which isn't there.

Also I think the height of any maturity is finding entertainment in anything you want to find it in, without it effecting your judgement of serious issues.

Mystery00:
I never actually said anything about maturity, I think you misunderstood what I meant by "grow up", that was directed at people's response to such games rather than the level of maturity the games themselves have.

Besides that, most entertainment isn't supposed to be mature.

As far as the hentai production is concerned I think it's as varied as any other form of media; you really can't categorise it all with a single sentence, so while your statement is true for some of it, it's completely wrong for a lot of it.

That aside, this particular game seems to be more of a time waster. You can find many similar flash games around the net, which hardly have anything to do with causing arousal.

They're simply there to kill time, with a small sexual twist. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody in their right mind would let it influence them in any way.

So I really think you're seeing something which isn't there.

Also I think the height of any maturity is finding entertainment in anything you want to find it in, without it effecting your judgement of serious issues.

Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there. Although I find this a bit disconcerting:

Wikipedia Article:
According to Amazon.com, the game is the best selling pre-order game in Japan, and is more popular than The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass[2].

There's also still the fact that the girls being sexualised through "light-hearted" molestation are very clearly stated as being between 12 and 15 years of age, which is underage even in Japan.

Hmm. On second thought, better make that extremely disturbing.

..

To put in terms of entertainment-related maturity: I'm perfectly capable of finding the Brass Eye pedophilia special hilarious; a game quite possibly marketed towards actual (or even crypto-) pedophiles less so.

Mystery00:
As far as the hentai production is concerned I think it's as varied as any other form of media; you really can't categorise it all with a single sentence, so while your statement is true for some of it, it's completely wrong for a lot of it.

The first paragraph is what I was refering to with "Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there." That might not have been clear. Anyway, also wanted to post the link to the Brass Eye Paedogeddon Special. Everyone should watch it:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y7jVnrfoZD8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnQDYnGtS8&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fA07Tw4iEFw&feature=related
(In three parts.)

anti_strunt:
Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there.

I'd have to disagree with you on that, but "individual experiences may vary" as they say.

anti_strunt:
On second thought, better make that extremely disturbing.

I don't find it disturbing, but I definitely couldn't care less about it. It's very difficult to judge the age of "cute" anime characters for one thing, just from a visual standpoint, no matter what their age is written somewhere as.

These kinds of things are really left to the viewer's imagination. You see whatever you want to see.

Mystery00:

anti_strunt:
Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there.

I'd have to disagree with you on that, but "individual experiences may vary" as they say.

They can indeed, but I'm still very much surprised that anyone could spend time on the Internet and still maintain a positive view of Japanese pornography...

Mystery00:

anti_strunt:
On second thought, better make that extremely disturbing.

I don't find it disturbing, but I definitely couldn't care less about it. It's very difficult to judge the age of "cute" anime characters for one thing, just from a visual standpoint, no matter what their age is written somewhere as.

These kinds of things are really left to the viewer's imagination. You see whatever you want to see.

AH, but that is where you are wrong, kimosabe! I give you the offical character introductions from the official English site:
http://www.dokimajo.com/dkmj01/english/chara.html

From the Creepy Bios:
Witch suspects
Maho Akai, 14 years old
Maria Abe, 14 years old
Renge Oda, 13 years old
Ayame Midoh, 15 years old
Yuuma Mochizuki, 13 years old (actually a boy, not that that makes it any better)
Merry Watabiki, 12 years old
(There's also a 23 year old nurse, for some reason...)

Irregardless of visual portrayal (and several of the girls don't really look a day over their underage - seriously, check the link), the game is clearly and openly stated as being a game about "touching" underage girls. And it's the most popular Japanese preorder on Amazon. I still say that's very good cause for concern. The fact that the Internet is awash with people clamouring for it to be imported to the west is even worse. The fact that it would probably sell and make a fair profit... sucidial depression wouldn't be an entirely undue reaction.

anti_strunt:
AH, but that is where you are wrong, kimosabe! I give you the offical character introductions from the official English site:
http://www.dokimajo.com/dkmj01/english/chara.html

From the Creepy Bios:
Witch suspects
Maho Akai, 14 years old
Maria Abe, 14 years old
Renge Oda, 13 years old
Ayame Midoh, 15 years old
Yuuma Mochizuki, 13 years old (actually a boy, not that that makes it any better)
Merry Watabiki, 12 years old
(There's also a 23 year old nurse, for some reason...)

Irregardless of visual portrayal (and several of the girls don't really look a day over their underage - seriously, check the link), the game is about clearly and openly stated as being a game touching underage girls. And it's the most popular Japanese preorder on Amazon. I still say that's very good cause for concern. The fact that the Internet is awash with people either clamouring for it to be imported to the west is even worse. The fact that it would probably sell and make a fair profit... sucidial depression wouldn't be an entirely undue reaction.

Well I did say it was regardless of what their age is written as. Visually it can go either way, depending on your perspective.

Also, you do know puberty in girls starts as early as 8, by the age of 14 and up they are supposed to be naturally attractive.

Humans are also predisposed to things such as violence, we have laws against shooting your next door neighbour for waking you up at 4am with loud music for weeks on end, and also against picking up 14 year old girls.

The laws are there to stop people from acting on basic impulse.

As far as violence is concerned, we have video games for example, and as far as this is concerned, we have porn.

What I'm saying is regardless of your personal stance on the issue, it's normal.

And yet, society still functions quite happily, go figure.

Oh the wonders of the Japanese and their horrible facination with youth. As I understand it the Asian cultures in general have an odd obsession with youth and attractiveness not unlike our own, yet ending much sooner. As I understand it the "cut off age" in most Asian nations is 25 at which point you are referred to as "Old Christmas Cake". This was a phrase told to me by a good friend of mine who's a Chinese Canadian with a good line on strange Japanese Culture. She also happens to be 27 coming up soon on 28, well past prime marraige age.

My girlfriend likens the Japanese obsession with youth and highschool to their constant time spent their and the fact that once they've finished High School and gone to University they have a soul crushing life of Salaryman Labor to look forward to, it's really not much of an existance. It's very similar to the American attatchment to Highschool, the only difference is that the japanese prefer to animate their highschoolers and have them look closer to their age rather than the American approach of 25 year old Teenagers.

Speaking of which, I'm coming up on 25 and I really don't look like a teenager anymore. Maybe this whole cultural oddity could amount to a fear of aging, or a desire to regain your youthful vigor. Since Videogames and Cartoons are accepted adult pasttimes in Japan one must assume that the only way they can get their "youth" on is by touching underage witches. Regardless, I guess it sucks to get old and not be able to let go of that "Magical Time When I Was Happy," that mindset being the unfortunate byproduct of this soul crushing ambition driven world we live in.

Mystery00:
Well I did say it was regardless of what their age is written as. Visually it can go either way, depending on your perspective.

Also, you do know puberty in girls starts as early as 8, by the age of 14 and up they are supposed to be naturally attractive.

Humans are also predisposed to things such as violence, we have laws against shooting your next door neighbour for waking you up at 4am with loud music for weeks on end, and also against picking up 14 year old girls.

The laws are there to stop people from acting on basic impulse.

As far as violence is concerned, we have video games for example, and as far as this is concerned, we have porn.

What I'm saying is regardless of your personal stance on the issue, it's normal.

And yet, society still functions quite happily, go figure.

Not sure if linking to images is allowed; it's perfectly Safe For Work, at least.

image

Did you check the link? Several of the characters, as portrayed, seem to lack any sexual characteristics indicative of puberty what-so-ever. Perhaps I'm just a crazy moralist, but some exceptions I can only see a line of sexualised children. The 12-year-old in the bunny constume is a particularily frightening example. I do not know the touchy-feely specifics of locating her witchmark, but her very presence is... Well, you can probably predict my feelings at this point.

As for the rest of your post: the only conclusion I can see being reached from your arguments is that society functions happily in spite of our natural impulses, that is to say, thanks to our laws against them. I'm not sure that's what you're getting at...

anti_strunt:
Did you check the link? Several of the characters, as portrayed, seem to lack any sexual characteristics indicative of puberty what-so-ever. Perhaps I'm just a crazy moralist, but some exceptions I can only see a line of sexualised children. The 12-year-old in the bunny constume is a particularily frightening example. I do not know the touchy-feely specifics of locating her witchmark, but her very presence is... Well, you can probably predict my feelings at this point.

I did have a look, they're very stylised. That's all really, just really stylised cartoon characters.

You see whatever you want to see. I see cartoons, you see children.

Mystery00:

anti_strunt:
Did you check the link? Several of the characters, as portrayed, seem to lack any sexual characteristics indicative of puberty what-so-ever. Perhaps I'm just a crazy moralist, but some exceptions I can only see a line of sexualised children. The 12-year-old in the bunny constume is a particularily frightening example. I do not know the touchy-feely specifics of locating her witchmark, but her very presence is... Well, you can probably predict my feelings at this point.

I did have a look, they're very stylised. That's all really, just really stylised cartoon characters.

You see whatever you want to see. I see cartoons, you see children.

Some of which possess stylised sexual characteristics; some of which do not, and are explicitly stated as being of a young age. Both cathegories are involved in pseudosexual petting activities.

Seriously. Are you a diehard relativist, or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

Also, didn't answer my question regarding your words on "normalcy" and what's good for society...

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