Free Radicals

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Ugh, another video game/feminist debate. I feel like, ever since the whole Anita Sarkeesian blow up, we've got to a point that we're looking at the issue of women and video games in any form under a microscope. Any little thing is going to be talked about, misquoted and argued back and forward until a load of people make blogs about it and videos about it and yeah, comics about it and so on. Every few weeks it's popping up in video game communities (and sci-fi I've noticed).

It's just about hitting breaking point at this stage. The only way I see it going is the topic will just be white noise to most people because it's so damn frequent that it'll be impossible to feel anything about it when we're being hammered with the topic.

All that'll be left would be the "extremists" (radicals, crazies, whatever) on both sides of the fence who wouldn't dare have a rational discussion and would rather just yell at each other than talk. It's nearly like arguing religion at times or even politics.

Look, change will gradually happen. There's more women now than ever playing video games. No, they're not the main market but over time, that number will grow and publishers will take notice. Money speaks after all, always has done. But right now, it's a market that makes games for younger male adults and teens because that's were the money is at.

On top of that, female developers is growing and again. over time, that'll grow and there'll be women in positions of power to make changes.

I'm not saying this shouldn't be brought up or talked about, but we can't try and force big changes any faster and at the current rate we're hammering this topic, it's just building up more venom for the more extreme sides to duke it out. And everyone else will just get fed up even seeing the issue pop up.

Static Jak:
Ugh, another video game/feminist debate. I feel like, ever since the whole Anita Sarkeesian blow up, we've got to a point that we're looking at the issue of women and video games in any form under a microscope. Any little thing is going to be talked about, misquoted and argued back and forward until a load of people make blogs about it and videos about it and yeah, comics about it and so on. Every few weeks it's popping up in video game communities (and sci-fi I've noticed).

It's just about hitting breaking point at this stage. The only way I see it going is the topic will just be white noise to most people because it's so damn frequent that it'll be impossible to feel anything about it when we're being hammered with the topic.

All that'll be left would be the "extremists" (radicals, crazies, whatever) on both sides of the fence who wouldn't dare have a rational discussion and would rather just yell at each other than talk. It's nearly like arguing religion at times or even politics.

Look, change will gradually happen. There's more women now than ever playing video games. No, they're not the main market but over time, that number will grow and publishers will take notice. Money speaks after all, always has done. But right now, it's a market that makes games for younger male adults and teens because that's were the money is at.

On top of that, female developers is growing and again. over time, that'll grow and there'll be women in positions of power to make changes.

I'm not saying this shouldn't be brought up or talked about, but we can't try and force big changes any faster and at the current rate we're hammering this topic, it's just building up more venom for the more extreme sides to duke it out. And everyone else will just get fed up even seeing the issue pop up.

The funny thing is now it's coming to light that Anita is the giant hack so many people said she was. Her game play footage was stolen from lets players, her arguments are usually nothing but obvious reaching and stretching to force things to fit her preconceived notions, and her funding appears to have gone to herself and nothing else, since her videos haven't increased in quality a single bit.

Okay, without going into the actual beliefs of any of the parties involved,

Radical Feminism (as used by the comic) is a term used essentially solely within feminism circles.
Radical Feminism,(as used by society as a whole) is used much more widely.

Both of these terms can coexist 90% of the time, but when someone from outside of your grouping uses a term in a different way than within your grouping, they are not wrong, they use a word differently. The correct response is
'Sorry mate, but what do you mean by that'...'okay, well in my grouping we use it in this way, but now that we have established what we both think it means, we can move on' the incorrect response is 'No! You're an idiot who doesn't follow the rules me and my friends made up and never told you! You can never understand what we are talking about!'

This is not a feminism thing, this is a... I suppose dialect would be the best word to use for it, or maybe jargon. The same thing happens when military and civilians speak to each other, communists and capitalists, Collingwood fans and people who actually know who their parents are...

When a group spends time in insular discussion, its usage of language alters to better fit the requirements of the group. That is how language works. It is not a bad thing, but must be acknowledged in order to allow that group to effectively interact with other groups.

Looking at this comic, Erin knew exactly what the other person was trying to say, wilfully misinterpreted it to make herself seem more intelligent and claimed victory. Essentially, were I to make a comic demonstrating the concept I just described above, Erin would be the one wearing the straw man t-shirt.

Again, what either party believes is irrelevant. Using language effectively is essential for a discussion to take place

Of course, I prefer the Bodacious Feminists.

Radical feminists:
A minority of middle-to-upper-class privileged white ladies being hyper-sensitive and trying to find sexism where there is none while pretending to speak for all women. Such as the vocal minority that has judged the gaming industry and all gamers to be a den of only men made of sexism and hate towards women due to a vocal minority of trolls and true assholes... and pulling the fire alarm at a college to stop a speaker they didn't like.

Just one recent example (aside from those videos with no research put into them), one group claimed the protrayal of the female protagonist in the Last Of Us was sexist for not being "strong and independent" enough.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims

Besides, all those non-white feminists are getting pretty sick of their nonsense.

Can we please stop having these forced gender debates on a video game site? The finger waggling at an entire sub-culture is getting a little old?

Nurb:
Can we please stop having these forced gender debates on a video game site?

It's only been ~1 year after the debates popped up, we're still in the active phase and should see a decline of such debates in the following 1 year. Fret not, the bandwagon will pass :)

Nurb:
Radical feminists:
A minority of middle-to-upper-class privileged white ladies being hyper-sensitive and trying to find sexism where there is none while pretending to speak for all women. Such as the vocal minority that has judged the gaming industry and all gamers to be a den of only men made of sexism and hate towards women due to a vocal minority of trolls and true assholes... and pulling the fire alarm at a college to stop a speaker they didn't like.

Just one recent example (aside from those videos with no research put into them), one group claimed the protrayal of the female protagonist in the Last Of Us was sexist for not being "strong and independent" enough.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims

Besides, all those non-white feminists are getting pretty sick of their nonsense.

Can we please stop having these forced gender debates on a video game site? The finger waggling at an entire sub-culture is getting a little old?

There's a term for the definition you gave that doesn't conflict with the Radical Feminism movement, which is what the comic was talking about. That term is Tumblr Feminist, and the internet (but especially Tumblr) is full of them. I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Tumblr yet, because the place is to internet faux outrage what Reddit is to image macros. And also to image macros what reddit is to image macros, along with 4chan.

hazabaza1:

Like you said, Jim. Then there's Yahtzee with the whole pre-op transsexual thing, now changed into a censorship thing 'cos he changed the joke. Recently there was the best boobs gallery of the day, and I could've sworn Bob did a thing about the rape stuff in Kick-Ass 2 but I can't find it any more so maybe I imagined it. And then there's the Target advertising kerfuffle going on in Off-Topic.

But Jim has always done this, Yahtzee has always done this, and Bob has done this for as long as I've followed him (although I do so sparsely), so...It comes down to the fact that they did one boob gallery like two weeks ago?

Haw haw, "Strawman Inc."

But seriously, Erin identifies as a Feminist, now, too? God...so politically correct...so...uptight...the more I read these comics the more I start to feel she's that person who overhears an inappropriate, slightly offensive or dirty joke and bores people by droning on in a matter-of-fact voice as to why that's not actually true. Even though IT'S A JOKE.

Kind of like my dad...

Even so, I've studied Radical Feminism and, yeah, it's not what most people think it is. Liberals are like "Huh, things could be better, but, it's okay." and Radicals are like "Let's get shit DONE!", they're far off from the crazy biotches that want to send men to the moon or build a wall between us.

Zachary Amaranth:

hazabaza1:

Like you said, Jim. Then there's Yahtzee with the whole pre-op transsexual thing, now changed into a censorship thing 'cos he changed the joke. Recently there was the best boobs gallery of the day, and I could've sworn Bob did a thing about the rape stuff in Kick-Ass 2 but I can't find it any more so maybe I imagined it. And then there's the Target advertising kerfuffle going on in Off-Topic.

But Jim has always done this, Yahtzee has always done this, and Bob has done this for as long as I've followed him (although I do so sparsely), so...It comes down to the fact that they did one boob gallery like two weeks ago?

I dunno, it seems recently it's been a lot worse.
Maybe there's just been an increasing influx of special snowflakes and enraged silly people.

tangoprime:
So... radical feminism isn't transphobic, but very many of them [proponents of] are exceedingly transphobic?
0_o

So there are radical radical feminists within the radical feminist community, or moderate radical feminists, or?

More or less, yeah. I couldn't say how many of them are, but more than most branches of feminism, it seems.

I've really got to stop reading this fucking comic, there's not even humour in it any more.

Implying ideas like consensual sex being hard to distinguish from rape due to "male dominance" is somehow not extreme and fucking retarded.

"Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of contempt for women's bodies." - Andrea Dworkin

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." - Valerie Solanas

The only radical feminist worth a shit is bell hooks.

hazabaza1:

I dunno, it seems recently it's been a lot worse.
Maybe there's just been an increasing influx of special snowflakes and enraged silly people.

I'm not personally seeing it, myself. And maybe I'm just used to it or something.

thaluikhain:

More or less, yeah. I couldn't say how many of them are, but more than most branches of feminism, it seems.

I'm not sure hat's true. There's a "purity" movement within a lot of branches of feminism. Hell, my girlfriend's subscribed to a Facebook page that routinely calls out this shit. It's not just the "radical" branch.

ThreeName:
I've really got to stop reading this fucking comic, there's not even humour in it any more.

Implying ideas like consensual sex being hard to distinguish from rape due to "male dominance" is somehow not extreme and fucking retarded.

"Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of contempt for women's bodies." - Andrea Dworkin

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." - Valerie Solanas

The only radical feminist worth a shit is bell hooks.

Of course, you look at who are being called "radical" feminists, and it is not being applied that narrowly. Which was the point of the strip. Maybe if people looked before they leap to judgment....

Zachary Amaranth:

hazabaza1:

I dunno, it seems recently it's been a lot worse.
Maybe there's just been an increasing influx of special snowflakes and enraged silly people.

I'm not personally seeing it, myself. And maybe I'm just used to it or something.

thaluikhain:

More or less, yeah. I couldn't say how many of them are, but more than most branches of feminism, it seems.

I'm not sure hat's true. There's a "purity" movement within a lot of branches of feminism. Hell, my girlfriend's subscribed to a Facebook page that routinely calls out this shit. It's not just the "radical" branch.

ThreeName:
I've really got to stop reading this fucking comic, there's not even humour in it any more.

Implying ideas like consensual sex being hard to distinguish from rape due to "male dominance" is somehow not extreme and fucking retarded.

"Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of contempt for women's bodies." - Andrea Dworkin

"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." - Valerie Solanas

The only radical feminist worth a shit is bell hooks.

Of course, you look at who are being called "radical" feminists, and it is not being applied that narrowly. Which was the point of the strip. Maybe if people looked before they leap to judgment....

Actually I think his point is that using the term "radical feminist" with the general definition of "radical" instead of the specific, feminist jargon version of "radical femnist" really makes no difference, because the latter version uses the word "radical" for basically the same reason as the former. The point is that the specific, narrow definition that Erin was pointing to in the comic really isn't all that different from the broader definition the guy was using.

Edit: that last usage of "guy" refers to the guy in the comic. The guy you quoted was using the same definition as Erin.

Edit: Also, not the actual definition the guy in the comic was thinking of in the punchline. The definition people actually use when they say what he said -- you know, "radical," synonym for "extremist."

Daystar Clarion:
inb4 the radical feminists come to take our penises away.

Smokey bacon crisps also have free radicals, but they're more carcinogenic than they are politically minded.

*swoops in*
Ha HAR. Your penis is now to be sacrificed to the blood queen! FOR THE MATRIARCHY!

But yes, good comic. Me gusta.

I'll just ignore all the bitching back and forth this topic is likely to have procured 4 pages from now when I add this post and can't be arsed to read the whole thing when there's cheese and crackers and a spare hour of Awesomenauts for me to play. Toodlyoo.

Not to throw water on the hot fire that is your premise but while I have never used the term I would imagine the people who do are referring to the likes of Andrea Dworkin and those feminists who say things like "all sex is rape" and "The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." and "To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo." and more.

The goal of equality between the sexes is great, pay equality, better portrayals in media, etc., but to pretend there isn't an extreme wing of feminism that promotes views that most people, men and women, would find abhorent, is to willfully turn a blind eye to the an entire subset of the feminist movement.

These views are, I believe, the minority among feminists, but you are implying that either an extreme wing of feminism does not exist or that somehow people who comment on it have the wrong idea about it? That just does not compute for me.

If you had said that some people use that as cover to hide their anti-feminist views then fine, I am with you, but really your message does not come across well in this comic.

iniudan:

Farther than stars:
While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

Fine, but that still leaves it being gender specific and 'sire' is usually used to denote male dogs.

The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

Well, "radical" isn't a good word apparently, so how about "tubular" or "gnarly" then?

I could also settle for "quirky". Then I'm out of ideas.

th3dark3rsh33p:
The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually[1]. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

[1] Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?

Headsprouter:

But seriously, Erin identifies as a Feminist, now, too?

I thought she always did.

God...so politically correct...so...uptight...

Careful now. You wouldn't want people to swoop in saying "Political corectness is just basic human f***ing decency! Everyone who complains about it are just a bully! And probably a republican as well. All republicans are only watching Fox News, right? I mean, everyone knows that." /strawman over.

Grey and Cory:

1. I don't really think you know what you're talking about, and
2. disagreeing with feminism is a great way to get banned, so thanks for the comic, I, erm... 'loved' it.

I honestly can't even tell what the joke in this comic is. That radical can also mean "cool"? Ha? I don't know, maybe I'm just too numb to anything involving the word feminism.

As to my definition. A radical feminist is someone that can listen to the song 'All I Want For Christmas Is You' and say it is enforcing sexist beliefs of women.

Farther than stars:

iniudan:

Farther than stars:
While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

Fine, but that still leaves it being gender specific and 'sire' is usually used to denote male dogs.

It's normal to have gender specific term when speaking of sexual reproduction, so where the problem ?

Second what your saying is mostly used when speaking of dog lineage where using husbandry term is usually the norm, no one use sire in general conversation or writing to denote that a dog is male, outside of been a synonyms for father, generally only used in higher linguistic register or to prevent repetition, at least in this part of Canada.

Miroluck:

Headsprouter:

But seriously, Erin identifies as a Feminist, now, too?

I thought she always did.

I'm speaking as somebody relatively new to these comics, I'm slowly learning more about Erin as I go along, is what I'm trying to say. I have no issue, really with her being a feminist, but it's adding slowly to the impression of excessive political-correctness I'm getting from her. I find it boring.

Then again, I might be a bit of a heathen. I find the offensive habits of the 4chan community quite intriguing in a morbid sort of way.

Huh? This weeks comic has more comments than usual, whats the...oh right...

Good comic.

Headsprouter:
Then again, I might be a bit of a heathen. I find the offensive habits of the 4chan community quite intriguing in a morbid sort of way.

No shame in that mate, with 4Chan, leave whatever offends you at the door and go laugh. At 4Chan, nothing is sacred (except chocolate milk)

Odoylerules360:
disagreeing with feminism is a great way to get banned, so thanks for the comic, I, erm... 'loved' it.

Really?

Kindly point out to me the specific rule in the code of conduct, that states that disagreeing with feminism is a bannable offense.

IceForce:

Mr F.:
You know, I cannot from any real perspective see how this comic will create an argument. It is quite simply pointing out that "Radical" in this particular context does not mean what many attribute it to mean. I see no issue.

... then you haven't been on this website for long enough, or you haven't been paying attention.

I'll give you a couple of recent examples.

Jimquisition about how internet death threats are bad:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.825793-Jimquisition-Im-Going-To-Murder-Your-Children
This shoud've been simple. Internet death threats are bad. There's no disputing it.
But somehow, it spiralled into 16 pages of arguments.

ZP, where Yahtzee makes a hamless and throwaway transgender joke:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.825922-Zero-Punctuation-Papers-Please-and-Brothers-A-Tale-of-Two-Sons
Once again, something that should've been pretty tame, spiralled into a massive flamewar that completely took over the thread.

There are many, many other countless examples.
People here will find anything to argue about.

I know I was sorta trying to argue that in a sane universe there is NOTHING to argue about here. With regards to Yahtzees shit joke, it was a pretty problematic joke. I mean, I found the edit to be far more amusing than the original. So I can understand some of the argument that went on there. Well, I can understand people saying "I found this joke really quite offensive", not really the people going "ITS A JOKE AND I DONT UNDERSTAND LANGUAGE OR HUMAN COMMUNICATION.". Thats life though, different strokes.

I have been around here long enough to go that if you were to get ten Escapists into a room and go "Should I turn on the light?" 4 of them will say yes and the other four will form factions, one arguing that the turning on of a light is a horrific act that should never be committed due to reasons and the others calling them ignorant fuckwits for wanting to sit in the dark, with the last two going "LOL THE FIGHT IS FUNNY LOL LOL FUNNY LOL" and watching.

EDIT:

IceForce:

Odoylerules360:
disagreeing with feminism is a great way to get banned, so thanks for the comic, I, erm... 'loved' it.

Really?

Kindly point out to me the specific rule in the code of conduct, that states that disagreeing with feminism is a bannable offense.

Heh, I love that argument. That this site is super liberal and all the detractors get banned. You get banned for insulting people. Thats all. I mean, I have been in my fair share of feminism threads and I have never seen someone banned for simply disagreeing. Plenty banned on both sides for insulting each other, but nobody banned for simply disagreeing.

If disagreeing with feminism got you banned, about 10% of the population here would get banned.

Oh man I haven't heard that 'Get what you give' song in AGES. Still sounds so cool, too.

Riobux:
Okay, I am curious. Enlighten me what a radical feminist is. I'll admit I do tend to associate them as females who associate their exploitation with men, with the declaration that it's something built into men to do. This is in contrast to liberal feminists and Marxist feminists. I don't tend to associate the "radical" part with extreme or edgy, just the full label to what I've learnt about them. Things like political lesbianism. If you want a comparison to what I tend to associate radical feminism with, this quote by Ann Oakley is a good representation: "Men are the enemies of women. Promising sublime intimacy, unequalled passion, amazing security and grace, they nevertheless exploit and injure in a myriad subtle ways. Without men the world would be a better place: softer, kinder, more loving; calmer, quieter, more humane. "

Radical feminism holds that when it comes right down to it the differences between male and female are at best highly exaggerated by modern culture, resulting in misery as everyone invariably falls outside what is considered 'normal'.

This is what makes it radical, it questions the very basis of a lot what we mean by gender and how gender roles are formulated.

Take aggression as an example, a trait that is seen as male. A woman will get called a 'bitch' mostly for doing the same things that get a man called 'dynamic' and a 'natural leader'. Meanwhile because we culturally assume men to be more aggressive, we are automatically seen as a threat - which means longer prison sentences and that little bit more of a presumption of guilt in cases involving violence.

Another example is nurturing, which is seen as a female trait. You get women who just don't fit the nurturing mould, and men who do but because women are seen as the nurturing sex they are forced into it while the men who would actually be good at it are often looked down upon.

From a radical feminist perspective, homophobia and transphobia are symptoms of how this system plays out - because in both cases you have people who fall outside of their boxes, and society trying to shove them back in.

There was a time i made an effort to learn about feminism and its varieties.

Now i just judge on a case to case basis based on what is being said. So this joke kinda flew over my head i'm afraid :/

Owyn_Merrilin:

th3dark3rsh33p:
The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

Footnote: Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?

What does slut mean then? My common understanding of Slut is a derogatory term for "promiscuous women". Whenever I hear the term used against women, it's because they have had multiple sexual partners or refuse stable relationships in favour of casual sex. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of transient relationships. However society (here at least, in Ireland and I suspect with their Virgin Complex the States too) has a very negative view on women who are sexually active and in a casual way.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in your footnote, but the Feminist movement didn't redefine the word slut. My understanding is that some tried to break down "slut shaming" by pointing out the hypocrisy (Promiscuous Men are Studs yada yada), some tried to level it out and make it a gender neutral term (so men can be labelled sluts too) and some have tried to remove the negative connotations of the term (which is where Slutwalking comes in).

The Former is a more general Feminist viewpoint (de-constructing the notion that women are sexual objects for men), while the latter seems to be far more specific... focusing on the stigma attached to certain associated appearances. Reading the wiki article (cause I'm not in the mood for scholarly reading) it apparently originated from women been told to "avoid dressing like sluts" to avoid getting raped, which understandably drew out the ire of many women, not just feminists. The "Slutwalk" is a form of protest that attempts to attack notions that, somehow, certain women are responsible for their rapes because of what they wear.

This is often seen as guilt transference or victim blaming. The argument of "well if you leave a window open when you go away, you shouldn't be surprised if stuff gets stolen" seems to brought up in contrast to it. Personally I don't think comparing a woman's dress sense to an inanimate object is helping ease tensions at all, but big the problem is what is considered "Slutty", superficially, is highly subjective. The common image is skimpy clothing, fishnets and bountiful cleavage. But what represents a "Slut" is highly dependant on personal values, for instance, in certain Islamic cultures revealing your lips in public is enough... with or without makeup. A hundred years ago a bare ankle/calf would have a woman labelled as being lude and indecent. In certain areas here simply wearing makeup (if in poor taste) is enough to get you called slutty looking.

Basically, a not too small group of women took offence to being told they should shape their lives around rape avoidance (massive exaggeration, but it's essentially what happened). From where I'm standing the Slutwalks have good intentions behind it.

That said, you mentioned it's become more of an Outrage Engine then a legitimate movement. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by that?

Owyn_Merrilin:
There's a term for the definition you gave that doesn't conflict with the Radical Feminism movement, which is what the comic was talking about. That term is Tumblr Feminist, and the internet (but especially Tumblr) is full of them. I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Tumblr yet, because the place is to internet faux outrage what Reddit is to image macros. And also to image macros what reddit is to image macros, along with 4chan.

Tumblr is the hosting website of the Oppression Olympics right now.

Ragsnstitches:

Owyn_Merrilin:

th3dark3rsh33p:
The problem is a lot of people try to disassociate themselves from Feminism but want to be seen as supporting women's rights. Today there really is a difference at this point between someone who believes in the autonomy and equity in the eyes of the law for women, and those who are feminists. Feminism is a political theory with a lot of baggage that I think needs to have its monopoly as the only ideology that stands for women's rights revoked.

So the guy could have said this. I support women's rights, I just don't support modern feminism. Then again, if he said that he might not have a straw-man shirt on.

Perhaps the joke is that he didn't know enough about either to really make the distinction between the two, or was making a distinction he wasn't really aware of.

Honestly, the humor of the comic was just not there as far as I could see. *sighs* Why does everything on this website have to be politically inclined these days? It's getting really annoying, and up its own ass with how concerned with itself it is.

The problem with doing it that way is it gets exactly the kind of people those complaints are aimed at angry, and they go off on you for disliking a movement because of a "vocal minority" (which they're apparently too blind to notice they're a part of), or claim (like Grey Carter used this strip to) that feminists like that don't even really exist, that they're "straw feminists." Personally, I used to be a big fan of feminism, before the Slutwalk movement redefined... quite a bit more than just feminism, actually. A certain subset of the movement isn't not even recognizably a rights movement anymore, more like an outrage engine. And unfortunately, that subset is the only part of it that I seem to run into online.

Footnote: Like the word "slut," which I had never heard used to simply mean "a woman who enjoys sex" prior to the slutwalk telling me that that's what it meant, and then saying "so it shouldn't be a bad thing." Well no shit women enjoying sex isn't a bad thing, but that's not really what "slut" means, is it?

What does slut mean then? My common understanding of Slut is a derogatory term for "promiscuous women". Whenever I hear the term used against women, it's because they have had multiple sexual partners or refuse stable relationships in favour of casual sex. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of transient relationships. However society (here at least, in Ireland and I suspect with their Virgin Complex the States too) has a very negative view on women who are sexually active and in a casual way.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said in your footnote, but the Feminist movement didn't redefine the word slut. My understanding is that some tried to break down "slut shaming" by pointing out the hypocrisy (Promiscuous Men are Studs yada yada), some tried to level it out and make it a gender neutral term (so men can be labelled sluts too) and some have tried to remove the negative connotations of the term (which is where Slutwalking comes in).

The Former is a more general Feminist viewpoint (de-constructing the notion that women are sexual objects for men), while the latter seems to be far more specific... focusing on the stigma attached to certain associated appearances. Reading the wiki article (cause I'm not in the mood for scholarly reading) it apparently originated from women been told to "avoid dressing like sluts" to avoid getting raped, which understandably drew out the ire of many women, not just feminists. The "Slutwalk" is a form of protest that attempts to attack notions that, somehow, certain women are responsible for their rapes because of what they wear.

This is often seen as guilt transference or victim blaming. The argument of "well if you leave a window open when you go away, you shouldn't be surprised if stuff gets stolen" seems to brought up in contrast to it. Personally I don't think comparing a woman's dress sense to an inanimate object is helping ease tensions at all, but big the problem is what is considered "Slutty", superficially, is highly subjective. The common image is skimpy clothing, fishnets and bountiful cleavage. But what represents a "Slut" is highly dependant on personal values, for instance, in certain Islamic cultures revealing your lips in public is enough... with or without makeup. A hundred years ago a bare ankle/calf would have a woman labelled as being lude and indecent. In certain areas here simply wearing makeup (if in poor taste) is enough to get you called slutty looking.

Basically, a not too small group of women took offence to being told they should shape their lives around rape avoidance (massive exaggeration, but it's essentially what happened). From where I'm standing the Slutwalks have good intentions behind it.

That said, you mentioned it's become more of an Outrage Engine then a legitimate movement. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by that?

Basically a slut is a woman who has casual sex with so many partners that she lost count a long time ago, especially if she uses that sex as a weapon to get other things she wants. It's not simply a woman who "enjoys sex." Further, men do not get high fives for that kind of promiscuity either, not once they're out of high school, anyway. Have you ever heard the term "man-whore" used in a derogatory manner? Because I sure as hell have. The idea that only women get made fun of for promiscuity and only men get high fives for it is, at best, a Hollywood myth. What the slutwalk did was remove all nuance from the discussion surrounding the word. [edit]A slut is also not particularly choosy in her partners. A promiscuous woman has a lot of sex. A slut has a lot of indiscriminate sex. Note that I'm not saying I actually use this word, I'm just giving the definition as I understand it and have seen it used, because it differs significantly from the way modern feminists use it.[/edit]

It's also not "victim blaming" to suggest there are things the victim could have done differently to protect themselves, otherwise it's "victim blaming" to tell people to lock their doors at night. If the locked door thing is too far off to be a good analogy for you, then here's this: a man dressed in a nice suit should not walk alone in a bad part of town, otherwise he risks getting mugged. That's not victim blaming, it's sound advice. Of course in a perfect world crime wouldn't happen, but we do not and never will live in that world. "Telling men not to rape" is going to do nothing but alienate the men who already know it's a bad thing.

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