Jimquisition: Vertigo

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 . . . 20 NEXT
 

deathjavu:

Machine Man 1992:
Oh not this crap again.

I swear, Garme Jernolists are more predictable than the fucking tide.

We get it, there aren't as many female protagonists in games as there are men. The question is, who besides the histrionic SJW's of the world even care?

You say men aren't as conventionally attractive, and I have to ask, do you even know what women look for in men? What seems like a pile of grizzled manliness to us could be a steaming pile of attractive man-meat to a female.

Men and women have differing standards of attractiveness, and attempts to compare the two as if they were the same comes off as ignorant.

Actually, they've done studies on this. Generally the muscly roidbros of games are viewed as not terribly attractive.

Can't be arsed to go find it though. I get the feeling it would be a waste of time.

That's just the roided up dudes, what about less muscled, but still hairy guys like John Marsden?

I would usually use this space to say "that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," if I didn't also know of the same study you are talking about.

Look for "6 reasons why women are just as shallow as men" on Cracked.

deathjavu:

Spearmaster:
Wait, so now this mythical female protagonist has to be a deep, emotional, intelligent, never relies on a man ever, is never affected by a man, and now has to be conventionally ugly on top of that. Good luck selling that game.

Put out an APB for a 4'6" tall, 350# woman with severe burn scars all over her face and body and missing one leg and make a game about her...what.... oh that's right real people are boring and nobody gives a shit accept the PC hookers who have to appeal to their base by vilifying the very thing they make their living from...shameful.

It's like every argument just gets more and more reasonable and logical.

Need a corn cob pipe for that strawman?

The criteria that Jim had put out (Specifically the "Evil" part) made it so that he could only end with his conclusion.

It's less "There's no non traditional female protagonists" (which is a problem but not to the extent put forth) and more "There's no non traditional female protagonists that suit my lazer pinpoint criteria"

It's The Shrew's tactics; bring out the incremental improvements the industry IS making and then dismiss them because you're not in the business of improvement but talking down on high.

Tombsite:

SonOfVoorhees:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

Just because it is not an exclusive problems for games does not mean that games do not have to solve it as well. While it is true that women display a more varied view of what constitute an attractive man as opposed to what men thinks constitute an attractive woman, I highly doubt that was taken into consideration when designing the more diverse male characters.

Also it is rarely a good thing just to go "well can't fix that. That is just the way it is.". Would kinda lead to that stagnation of humanity's growth and all that. :)

I dont care whether the character is male, female, young or old. I just want a good game. Yes older women are consider less so than young woman....which is opposite to an older male. In a world were old woman try to be young, granted they are forced to, but its still the case. Age comes into it also. A 15 yr old ist going to play as a 30 yr old woman. An again a 30 yr old male would have no problem playing as a 30 yr old woman. Thing is we dont have this discussion when a movie companies makes a movie with a young well built guy showing his muscles off. Women love that in movies. Hell even older woman love Twilight because of the male actors. It goes both ways.

Mcoffey:
Just because it's a problem that isn't exclusive to games doesn't mean it isn't a problem games have. Jim's show focuses on the gaming side of the problem.

It's not that men don't care about looks. Looks matter less on a male character to a male when they're still portrayed as heroic or badass. I imagine women will likely feel similarly for female characters. It's kind of hard to measure for women though because most, if not all female heroes are beautiful women, designed around appealing to men (More so in video games). I don't think women are so shallow though that they wouldn't play as a 60 year old if the material was compelling enough.

Try reading a book or comic written by a woman for women. Their female characters aren't portrayed as heroic or badass because these types of female characters don't appeal to women; they only appeal to men. Even in harry Potter the girls, such as Hermione, were depicted as intelligent not heroic. It was the boys such as Harry Potter who were heroic.

deathjavu:

Silent Protagonist:
Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

Ah yes, http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9966-The-Counterpoint this argument.

Wow, it hasn't gotten any more sensible in the interim time since that comic.

This isn't a vague complaint like "men sometimes are sexualized too" as that comic was intended to address but rather pointing out that the very specific list of traits Jim criticizes female characters for lacking is in fact lacking in characters of all genders, races, species, or whatever other possible category.

Again, I don't disagree with the Jim's sentiment that we could use a heck of a lot more diversity in protagonists. I just take issue with the way he made his point, because I found it to be flawed. I am not trying to tear down the argument, just provide constructive criticism and maybe provide another avenue to the discussion.

Sorry if that's not how things are supposed to be done here on the internet.

Steve Waltz:

Vicioussama:
Curious what you think about Maddox' take on women in games

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sexism_videogames

Kinda agree with his.

I have to agree with his logic more than what most of Jim has been saying. Granted, some of the points Jim has made, such as Elizabeth being removed from the box cover of Bioshock Infinite because she was a female is total BS, but Maddox makes some good points. And I hate agreeing with Maddox because even though he's funny, he's kind of a dick.

From what I can tell his dickish attitude is merely a persona he puts on for laughs on the internet/media/whatnot. But I don't know him personally so can't say for sure.

As for the bit with Bioshock Infinite? Ya, that's some bs.

I think the real problem is rather more basic: the lack of female writers in games.

It takes a very good (male) writer to write a realistic protagonist of the opposite sex - understandable considering that all of their interactions with women are, of course, from a male perspective. Of course, most excellent writers don't write for video games - and even a very good writer can cock it up massively (Ian Fleming's "The Spy who Loved Me" springs to mind)

Woman love watching Thor for the muscles of the main actor. Same with twilight. Just the way things are. Not saying its right, its just the way things are. Just woman are more vocal than men. Me? Im a guy, dont give a shit if older woman get off on twilight. Or woman watch Thor shows his abs. Its entertainment. Its fantasy. Its not real. Isnt that the point of games? Stick to the real world of adverts, modelling and Photoshopping models into fake woman. Start there then games.

Female Liltie, FF Crystal Chronicles series (see Rings of Fate), and Yuke for that matter in all the others.

BARBARIAN DIABLO 3, I can't stress that one enough. Not attractive, dev made protag.

Cream the rabbit, Sonic Advance game series

Panda, Tekken

Thinking a problem exists and then bending evidence to fit what you believe makes you a hack. I mean, ANY CHILD FEMALE PROTAG isn't attractive and is a different character type than you described. Did you include it? No. Because then you can't make your "funny" observation.

Why are female characteristics always seen as "bad writing" or "generic" to you Jim? What I got from this video is that all female characters should only have traditional male motivations and attributes. Did I miss a hidden assumption somewhere along the line? This doesn't seem as uncontroversial as you make it seem

Silent Protagonist:
Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

But that's kinda the point of what Jim was talking about: the range for male characters is much vaster than the range for female characters. Men can be old, young, grizzled, handsome, out-right pretty, badasses, goody two-shows, neutral, etc. They can have much more diversity in their character models and personalities, where as female playable characters are stuffed into narrow margins.

One of the big requirements that people are missing out with a lot of the suggestions in this thread is that a lot of them are bringing up "good" characters. To be fair, Jim doesn't specifically list in his 3 criteria that he was looking for bad/morally questionable females, but I'm pretty sure he meant to seeing as how that's one of the points he makes at the beginning of the episode (that playable females are almost always one of the good guys), and he also makes it a point to talk about how Vertigo was a wicked beast wanting to enslave the world, pointing out that in Primal Rage Vertigo is one of the "villains" characters you can fight as. And finding an unattractive, "evil", playable, not-motivated-by-man-or-trauma female character is very tricky, implying that almost all female characters that are playable are "good", conventionally attractive, and are motivated by a man or trauma. They almost all fit into that mold, while male characters can be pretty much anything the developer wants them to be.

That said, I have seen some good examples of females that do fit Jim's criteria throughout this topic, but I think the video is more about making the point that the majority of female characters fit into that mold, not challenging us to try and one-up him by coming up with other characters that might meet the criteria of this exercise.

I am curious how many protagonists in general don't have generic motivations in games? I mean generic heroics is usually the norm, I'm not saying there aren't games that are more morally hazy but wasn't his last episode about how rare it is to play the bad guy.

Edit:I was thinking isn't this more a homogenization problem rather than a sexism problem? in fact isn't all the sexism problems in games (though not things like online communities) just repackaged homogenization problems that's what I don't get why people have to get up in arms on either side can't we all just agree on more variety.

Silent Protagonist:
Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

Abe from Oddworld? Though I guess his motivations are kind of generically heroic... Generic motivations eliminates the vast majority of games and kinda makes this conversation difficult.

I do agree that some of his male examples were borderline, I doubt there aren't at least a few other people who have the hots for Snake and Fenix.

I don't think non-human characters qualify. Or at least they shouldn't. It falls into a common trap that a lot of writers fall into, it doesn't matter if your character is female if they could just as easily be male. Men and women are different, and a good writer can write characters that aren't just males swapped with females.

I think eliminating attractive characters is also probably going to far, being attractive isn't the problem. It's being nothing but attractive bits that's the problem. There's a lot of attractive women who are really great characters, some even brought up in this very thread.

Monxeroth:

Pat Hulse:

Monxeroth:

But even so appeasing this type of crowd just for the sake of appeasement actually would have a negative effect on the industry since the act of acting for the sake of action has and always will be incredibly anti-intelligent.
Its a secondary priority and should always be.
You make your game first and then if your game has room for a nontraditionally attractive female protagonist then go right ahead, i havent argued against anything else, just that id like my game primarily to be..well a game, and then that whole feminist thing can be shoehorned in if it wants to as long as it doesnt affect my enjoyment of the game really

Entertainment industries are exclusively about appeasement. That's pretty much the entire definition of entertainment. It can be used to enrich lives, sure, but it is first and foremost used to be fun and distracting and give us something to do with our idle time. The better question is who we're appeasing, why we're appeasing them, and how that appeasement would negatively impact the appeasement of others.

My argument is simply that unless you can think of a counter-argument, changing a male protagonist in a game whose gender identity is not critical to their character (of which there are many) into a female protagonist whose gender identity is not critical to their character without changing much else would be trivially difficult, have a positive impact on communities who ask for such representation, and wouldn't have a significant negative impact on those who aren't asking for it. In my mind, if doing something is easy and would have a positive effect that outweighs the negative effect by a significant margin, it ought to be a no-brainer. We shouldn't FORCE people to do this, obviously, but there's nothing wrong with attempting to convince people to make this decision voluntarily if they find the arguments compelling and if they want to make work that's accessible to a wider audience.

Well yeah but again in that case there needs to be incentive and it needs to be compelling without feeling forced or without just the intent of creating diversity rather than letting it be created organically through play and through the player experience. Nothing good will ever come of simply complaining and shouting about it because what we need is not what we want. If we do however want it on the basis of something being simply objectively good as a, in this case, game, then we need to cater to that primarily and not let something be carried upon the simple fact that it "challanges the barriers of social constructs".

Like i said, i for one would just like a good game and if such a thing as gender doesnt affect my playing experience, go right ahead.
If its being shoehorned in just for the sake of it and forcing it upon me trying to make me compelled then that game can go eat a dong for all i care and the devs hopefully out of a job soon.

I understand what you mean, but I'm not talking about including women just for the sake of social justice, but more because if there's no reason for men to be the default, there should be no reason to not just swap the gender. You don't have to make it a big political thing or a statement, just change a chromosome. I look at a character like Trevor and ask myself "Why is this character a man?" and I can't think of a compelling reason. Then I ask, "If he were a woman, would I find the character more interesting?" And the answer, for me at least, is yes. I've seen male characters like Trevor before. Psychotically violent middle-aged slobs with substance abuse problems are frequently men, but there's no reason they HAVE to be, other than arbitrary social constructs and expectations. Statistically men might be more prone to this type of behavior, but women can be psychotically violent middle-aged slobs with substance abuse problems, and since when did protagonists have to be statistically plausible? Furthermore, if you turn Trevor into a woman, even without changing much of anything else, you create an additional layer of subtext that makes the character far more intriguing and complicated simply because we as an audience haven't ever really played as a woman like that before. Sometimes changing one ingredient can completely transform the recipe.

I'm first and foremost a proponent of making things more interesting. Having characters default to white men is boring to me. Having a gaming culture that's dominated by white men is boring to me. I want developers to shake things up and try new things, and if that has the added benefit of getting different people interested in gaming, then I'm completely on board.

Branindain:
Regarding Amaterasu, she certainly seems the perfect choice. Correct me if my memory is lying to me though, but didn't they pretty much obfuscate her gender throughout the game, presenting her as non-gendered unless you read the manual?

I find that sort of strange that someone would even have to read a manual to figure that out, considering Amaterasu is the sun goddess and mother to us all. It'd be like playing as Hera or Aphrodite or another well known goddess, but in animal-form, and being confused as to what gender she is without being told. As to people in-game confusing her gender, most of the time they can't tell if she's a wolf, let alone looking underneath to check what gender. Those characters that know, well... know.

*Though you didn't mention it, I don't like that there are those who say she can't be a girl just because she lifts her leg when using Golden Fury, as alpha female wolves mark their territory just the same as males; the devs can't be blamed just because they bothered to do the research and it just so happens to not jive with preconceived notions of what wolves are supposed to do.

fwiffo:
Does bandage girl from super meat boy count?

I guess you can see her as "cute", but definitely not sexy or curvy in general.

She's got the same powers as meat boy, and takes on the hardest levels of the game.

Probably not. In the story she's the thing Meat Boy has to rescue. Despite said rescue falling into the realm of sheer parody/reference, Jim would likely not count it.

I'm a bit late to the party, but would Inquisitor Adrastia From DoW II: Retribution count? Haven't played the game to be honest...

Amaterasu lifts her leg to pee. She's probably not a good example. = )

Well, I've got two to add to the list. They are both going to be knocked down because they don't meet all the requirements necessarily, but I don't think meeting all the requirements should really be a goal for a good character. They do, IMO, offer some palate-cleansing to the usual fare of victim/vixen women we encounter.

1. The original Lara Croft. Despite her bosom, she was entirely independent, morally ambiguous and beat the boys at their own game. She was considered attractive by PS1 standards, but I never felt that Lara cared whether the boys thought she was attractive or not. She played by her own rules and was accountable to no one.

2. Kaede from Onimusha Warlords/Genma Onimusha. Yes, she's a "helper" character, but you do get to play as her and she kicks ass, even saving the protagonist at one point. I suppose one could consider her attractive, but again, she feels very plain and unadorned by game standards for women. She is not morally questionable by our standards, but by the standards of feudal Japan, she's positively scandalous.

king_nelu:
Quina Quen from final fantasy 9

Not Evil, doesn't count.

Ukomba:

Pat Hulse:

Ukomba:

For starters, look up the definition of 'protagonist'. Here let me help:

protagonist: the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.

So Kreia, Macha, NeoFio, Poshul, Sprigg, Lucca, and Shale are, in fact, Protagonists. Any Party member would be. Even non playable characters, like Joker from Mass Effect, would count as a Protagonist. Lucca especially, since Chrono dies half way through the game. Is there just no Protagonist at that point?

A character being DLC is entirely irrelevant.

The Trauma thing, well you might have me for those two.

From a narrative perspective, you may be right, but we're talking about video games here. It's possible for a game to have multiple protagonists, but in my mind, that would mean those characters would have to share all of the same means of control and prominence within the game and gameplay. To put it another way, the protagonist in Dragon Age is the main character because you can walk around as them, talk to people, and do a bunch of other things, but since you cannot do most of those things as Shale, she is rendered a supporting character. Shale is a character you talk to and command in combat. She only sticks around so long as she has a relationship and commitment to the main character. If she leaves, you don't get to play as her and see what happens on her solo adventures.

To put it yet another way, all those characters may be critically important to the plot, but you can't play as them in the same way you can play as the "true" protagonist.

That said, I had forgotten that Lucca was actually a playable character with no real significant gameplay differences when compared with Crono, so yeah, I guess she probably would fit Jim's criteria. However, while I haven't played "Chrono Cross", my understanding is that Serge is the central character throughout the whole game and the one used for navigation and managing the other playable characters, clearly making him the protagonist.

Then Jim shouldn't have used examples of non "true protagonists" in his video if he didn't want examples of them brought up in the comments.

Yes, I suppose the inclusion of the female characters from "Gears of War" does confuse that distinction a bit. Fair point.

THE_MUFFIN_MAN15:
Why are female characteristics always seen as "bad writing" or "generic" to you Jim? What I got from this video is that all female characters should only have traditional male motivations and attributes. Did I miss a hidden assumption somewhere along the line? This doesn't seem as uncontroversial as you make it seem

Um...the stereotypes he criticized writers of female characters for falling into were always pretty, always a love interest, and only fighting in a desperate attempt to survive and not in an empowering way. I don't see how those are female characteristics.

SonOfVoorhees:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

'Women have been brain washed' isn't a fair statement at all, it's more like 'Women have acknowledged that the path set before them has been laden with obstacles that are nearly impossible for them to overcome unless they conform.' We're not STUPID. We know what's happening, and alot of us are rather fed up with it but lack the power and voice to penetrate the anti sound walls of men and women completely complacent with this system because it's what they're used to and comfortable with.

I would totally play an old/unattractive woman. I know I'm gonna age one day, the 'typical girly girl' is a rare thing nowadays, we're just not loud enough yet.

I think that this is a game forum and ...that's the angle we're working on. And yes Jim just covers it from a gaming perspective, but then there's indie... and art, and still none of them have tackled that issue, where as other 'industries' swathed as they are by the corporate mindset of sexualizing girls and women to the point is sickening. There are alternatives in many scenes and places.

Women in gaming are not demanding that the boobs and ass go away, we want our men to have a good time too and...well if that's what you like, you should be able to enjoy yourself too. So stop misconstruing intent. Variety is what we want, strong women who are as diversely characterized and appearances based on how other women besides the privileged, appear.
We'd like the ratio of catering to be maybe moved over to 1:9 instead of 0.1/9.9. Just a little bit, enough to have maybe some wacky indie gamers finally make like a Kung Fu Grandma or something. Or a thicker looking girl, pushing her way through a horror game un-ironically.

I think that little game on PS3 'Fat Princess' was one of the few examples I could think of off the top of my head, and she's not really 'the main character'. Not really, she's probably the face of the game, and a morally questionable entitled bitch making her minions carry her about and feed her cake. But she's teetering on the edge.

deathjavu:
Isn't the prevalence of these ideas across culture the whole point of the "patriarchal society" argument? I mean, you've just rehashed the basic points of it; especially that women actively participate too.

Actually it's because it's how humans are genetically programmed to act. That's why it occurs in civilisations that have been isolated from the rest of the world for centuries (unless you believe the patriarchy controls people using magic).

Anyway, it's not entirely true. You can find ugly, villainous, weird woman with interesting motivations on TV and in movies. They certainly aren't anywhere near the majority, but they're definitely not as conspicuously absent as they are in video games.

Firstly TV is often limited by who you can get to play the role (budget, acting abilities, and age of the character are the main limiting factors), so not all the female characters can be young and beautiful.

Secondly TV/movies and games are very different types of mediums. In a game you play as one character, whereas most TV shows and movies are about multiple characters (even in shows about one character they're about how this character interacts with other characters, rather than something they do by themselves).

What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind? :P

Women who play games. No one is going to make a game for women unless there's a market for it.

So if women want more games make for them they need to start buying the games they consider the least awful in large numbers.

Having gone back and thought on it again, still going with

Mitsuko from Bloody Roar (heavy type fighter and transforms into a boar, fighting for her kid's safety, no mention of husband or the father at all).

Maybe Spartan 458 from Dead or Alive 4, but hard to tell under that armour, though it certainly doesn't add to an "appeal" factor save for a disembodied voice accompanying the moveset.

canadamus_prime:
Yes, but she's still got the whole smooth skin, slender body thing. I think Jim's point was that you don't see any female protagonists that look like the amazons from Futurama. A better example you could've brought up from Chrono Trigger would've been Ayla.

Are you kidding? Ayla? Ayla is probably the sexiest-designed character in that entire game. Blonde hair, curvaceous figure, and she wears an animal-fur bikini. Not to mention how "bouncy" her animations are.

The Amazons from Futurama, for that matter, weren't universally ugly. Most of them were as attractive as any other Futurama female, they just happened to be 15 feet tall. That's why Zap and Fry are both thrilled and terrified when their sentence comes down as "DEATH BY SNOO-SNOO!!!!" :P

Jimothy Sterling:
Vertigo

Let's look for a playable woman protagonist in a videogame that doesn't rely on the same pool of restrictive stereotypes as every other playable woman protagonist.

Watch Video

What about shale from Dragon age: origins

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Shale

She is a playable character, not attractive by any means (unless you have a thing for golems)and has her own unique agenda,is defiantly strong willed, and a unique combat style to the other companions.

"Now, let us crush something soft and watch it fountain blood. That is a girlish thing to want to do, yes?"

She has non traditional motives, having volunteered to become a golem, due to the fact she was a proud dwarf, eager to serve he nation, a hate of darkspawn and values physical strength over all else. It can even be argued she is a evil character. She is xenophobic, only loyal to the dwarf kingdom and has no empathy to any human characters you meet in your travels. She also takes delight in killing weaker foes favoring violence in resolving conflict, purely so she can crush the weak.

Also, she isn't dependent on the protagonist, often expressing her disapproval at helping the weak and not carrying on with the task at hand. She even turns on you (tries to kill you), if you make a decision conflicting with her beliefs, by siding with branka in the anvil of the void quest.

Wynn isn't traditionally attractive either, but not as good of a example as shale. To be honest though, I would have to think hard and long to find another playable female character who meets the criteria, as described in the video.

Charli:

SonOfVoorhees:
Still dont get why this is a "game" issue. Look at modelling, advertising, movies etc The whole size 0 thing. Even woman believe this crap when a mens mag showing woman in bikinis are given top shelf and black bagged, yet normal woman mags still have those photo shopped models with perfect looks etc.

I guess there is only one thing you can get out of this. Men dont care about age or looks. Grizzled or muscly or thin - men dont care. Men like sexy woman. Woman like strong sexy men. Same reason will woman play a game staring a 80 year old male? Its a non issue in my book. Make a compelling fun game where the character is a 60 year old woman, then i will play it. But also find me a woman that would play as a 60 year old and not a sexy 20 year old.

Maybe the issue is woman have been brainwashed by advertising to look young and sexy. By make up, music videos, adverts and models etc Not saying its right or wrong. Just thats how it is.

What do woman on escapist think?

'Women have been brain washed' isn't a fair statement at all, it's more like 'Women have acknowledged that the path set before them has been laden with obstacles that are nearly impossible for them to overcome unless they conform.' We're not STUPID. We know what's happening, and alot of us are rather fed up with it but lack the power and voice to penetrate the anti sound walls of men and women completely complacent with this system because it's what they're used to and comfortable with.

I would totally play an old/unattractive woman. I know I'm gonna age one day, the 'typical girly girl' is a rare thing nowadays, we're just not loud enough yet.

I think that this is a game forum and ...that's the angle we're working on. And yes Jim just covers it from a gaming perspective, but then there's indie... and art, and still none of them have tackled that issue, where as other 'industries' swathed as they are by the corporate mindset of sexualizing girls and women to the point is sickening. There are alternatives in many scenes and places.

Women in gaming are not demanding that the boobs and ass go away, we want our men to have a good time too and...well if that's what you like, you should be able to enjoy yourself too. So stop misconstruing intent. Variety is what we want, strong women who are as diversely characterized and appearances based on how other women besides the privileged, appear.
We'd like the ratio of catering to be maybe moved over to 1:9 instead of 0.1/9.9. Just a little bit, enough to have maybe some wacky indie gamers finally make like a Kung Fu Grandma or something. Or a thicker looking girl, pushing her way through a horror game un-ironically.

I think that little game on PS3 'Fat Princess' was one of the few examples I could think of off the top of my head, and she's not really 'the main character'. Not really, she's probably the face of the game, and a morally questionable entitled bitch making her minions carry her about and feed her cake. But she's teetering on the edge.

Thing you forget is, even old snake isnt ugly. An again its a character based on a multi million selling game. You could release an older Tomb Raider and it would sell due to the game. Men and woman are sexualised. An thats goes to advertising and girl/male mags. Your confusing what should be and not what is. Men are scene as young and muscly - look at movies and boy bands. Women are seen as sexy and young....look at movies and girl bands. Even older actors and singers are still young looking - both male and female. Just how life is.

For me, i take a character as they are. Dont care. As long as the game is fun. The whole game thing isnt an issue. The overly muscly strong man is a total opposite to me.....doesnt bother me. Same as i dont judge the woman i date by the adverts, mags, singers or game characters i play. Its fantasy. People need to get over it all.

RJ 17:

Silent Protagonist:
Suggestion: Try to come up with some male protagonists that fit Jim's criteria and debunk them like this thread has been doing with possible female character candidates that Jim might have missed. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head. The guys from GTAV don't even fit his criteria. Might be worth a separate thread

But that's kinda the point of what Jim was talking about: the range for male characters is much vaster than the range for female characters. Men can be old, young, grizzled, handsome, out-right pretty, badasses, goody two-shows, neutral, etc. They can have much more diversity in their character models and personalities, where as female playable characters are stuffed into narrow margins.

One of the big requirements that people are missing out with a lot of the suggestions in this thread is that a lot of them are bringing up "good" characters. To be fair, Jim doesn't specifically list in his 3 criteria that he was looking for bad/morally questionable females, but I'm pretty sure he meant to seeing as how that's one of the points he makes at the beginning of the episode (that playable females are almost always one of the good guys), and he also makes it a point to talk about how Vertigo was a wicked beast wanting to enslave the world, pointing out that in Primal Rage Vertigo is one of the "villains" characters you can fight as. And finding an unattractive, "evil", playable, not-motivated-by-man-or-trauma female character is very tricky, implying that almost all female characters that are playable are "good", conventionally attractive, and are motivated by a man or trauma. They almost all fit into that mold, while male characters can be pretty much anything the developer wants them to be.

That said, I have seen some good examples of females that do fit Jim's criteria throughout this topic, but I think the video is more about making the point that the majority of female characters fit into that mold, not challenging us to try and one-up him by coming up with other characters that might meet the criteria of this exercise.

I wasn't trying to disagree with Jim's point that there is a greater range of character traits used for male characters than female characters. I was criticizing his method of making a lengthy and specific list of criteria and then being angry and judgmental that there are so few female characters that meet it when in fact barely any characters regardless of gender meet his requirements. I don't disagree with the sentiment, just the way in which it was delivered.

You have a surprisingly lovely singing voice, Jim.

Also, y'know? I'd accept attractive if it just meant we could get older. I mean, fer fuck's sake; Jackie Brown is just dying to be the 'inspiration' that a GTA game blatantly rips off.

deathjavu:
What comes first, the women who play games or the attempts to design games with them in mind? :P

Quick, you're a development studio making a game. The overwhelming majority of your potential client base is male. What gender do you cater to if either if you want to ensure that your studio gets picked up again for a different game or a sequel?

Quick, you're a publishing studio thinking about investing in a game. Do you invest in a game that caters to men or women if over 80% of your potential customer base is male?

Is it any game studio's job to expand the entire gaming market at potentially huge losses? If you're spending millions of dollars on a game do you risk alienating your core audience without any potential upside? See, men and women do express different interests in most medias. It's not that they can't enjoy the same things or even that there isn't overlap, just that in aggregate we express different tastes. That's either due to culturally based gender roles or actual differences in gender pyschology (or perhaps a combination thereof), but the two are nigh impossible to separate out. So even if a game is made that caters directly to them, there is no promise that they'll enjoy it. What if gaming genres are the same movie genres and most women gamers simply don't prefer the kind of games we do? Don't get me wrong, my wife loves FPS games, she's a big fan of COD. But regarding the average female gamer? Perhaps they prefer more casual games? There should be a reason why 80% of female gamers in that study considered their Wii their primary console. We just don't know why yet. But assuming that women will like the same things that guys do does injustice to real differences that make both genders unique in their own right.

As such, throwing bloody FPS titles at women may never get the response it does from men, no matter how capable and plain the female protagonist was made. Because God only knows that women strongly desire to play as some ugly chick as their avatar. Just like I desire to play as some fat slob with an asthma problem.[/sarcasmjoke]

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 . . . 20 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here