Jimquisition: Shaming PC Ports Because Why Not?

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Regarding why PC ports may have a problem I refer you to this video by Extra Credit about how playing games with a different controller than the one it was designed for can result in a different experience.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/my-name-is-ozymandias

Regarding modding it can often be difficult to create a PC game that is sufficiently challenging for hardcore gamers but is still playable for casuals. As a result modders often try to create a game that meets the criteria they want, rather than what the majority of players will want. Just because a game has mods doesn't mean the developers did something wrong.

"The Batman of PC Ports"

AHAHAHAHAH amazing.

Twenty Ninjas:

Strazdas:

Its not about how cheap the controller is (you can get a keyboard+mouse for 10 dollars btw, and they work fine). Its about people chosing to use keyboard and mouse (primary PC input) because they LIKE it.

I assume the reason you buy a mouse and keyboard is because you want to use a computer, not specifically because you want to play videogames.

Mouse and keyboard is playable in Dark Souls though. It's just not as convenient.

Playing videogames are one thing a computer can do. I repeat again, Its about people chosing to use keyboard and mouse because they LIKE it.

Sotanaht:

Thanatos2k:
A fully patched and modded Skyrim on the PC is a wonderful game.

An unpatched and unmodded Skyrim is an absolute disgrace and I can't believe they charged anyone money for it.

Just another reason not to ever buy games near release. Wait 6 months for Steam to have it at half off with a full slate of unofficial mods and fixes.

Skyrim has many, many flaws and poorly thought out systems that are broken beyond repair. A fully modded skyrim is BETTER than an unmodded skyrim, but beyond repair is still beyond repair and no amount of mods is ever going to fix that game.

Final Fantasy Tactics has many poorly thought out systems that are broken beyond repair (*coughCalculatorscough*) but it is still the best SRPG ever made. Flaws don't necessarily ruin every game.

Strazdas:

Playing videogames are one thing a computer can do. I repeat again, Its about people chosing to use keyboard and mouse because they LIKE it.

So what's your point. I never claimed it was a good port.

I honestly think in the case of Dark Souls it is forgivable. That PC version was created only because of fan petitioning, and with full knowledge from the devs and fans that the PC version would probably not be very good.

My case and point of a horrible pc port is resident evil 4 by ubisoft. If not for the modding community making the game not only look great, they fixed some bugs as well.

Blue Ranger:

MeChaNiZ3D:
snip

That's not an excuse. If they didn't know how, they should have hired someone to port it properly, or not do it at all. That is only a valid excuse if the product they are releasing is completely free.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think it would also be a valid excuse if the product was cheaper and contained free content not found in the vanilla game, which was the case. The issues caused by porting do not negate the entire worth of the product. As for hiring someone else, I don't know why they didn't, it could be company culture or something. But they did make a port only after it was demanded by fans, put extra content in and sold it for cheaper.

PC ports have been largely shit for awhile. The 360 has made PC gaming shittier than any other thing. Developers don't even bother to make keyboard/mouse work well with their games - why bother when you can just plug in a 360 controller? It's fucking sad that I have to resort to using a controller on PC games because the developers didn't want to make the effort to make the actual control scheme of a PC function properly.
An example I use of laziness is the PC version of Dead Island - the full retail PC version has an achievement that is *only obtainable by using a controller.* It is 100% impossible to use a keyboard/mouse for it, because it requires you using a control scheme that you can only access if you have a controller plugged in. Yeah, I know achievements aren't "necessary," but I for one usually try to earn as many achievements as I can, and to have to use an outside accessory that SHOULDN'T be even in the equation is ridiculous.

And the saddest part is, you can't even be mad at that controller-only achievement when there's still so many games that don't even include achievements in the PC version. War for Cybertron comes to mind as an example. Even the Assassin's Creed games (including the newly released 4) don't have Steam achievements. (They have do Uplay achievements, but come on, who the fuck cares about Uplay?)
Of course, I could go on about Ubisoft PC ports... very shoddy. In AC Revelations, there are these side puzzles you can play as Desmond. But in the PC version, every time you enter the portal to load one of the puzzle levels, it literally closes the game and reopens a new instance to load the level, and then does the same when you finish the level. Just... why?

Deadagent:

Covarr:
Final Fantasy VIII was released on Steam last Thursday. It turned out it had horrible MIDI music instead of something proper. Awful PC port incarnate.

And then while my friend and I were working on a fan mod to fix it, this video came out. Timing couldn't have been more perfect. Anyway, we fixed the music in a mere four days. Watch as Square-Enix doesn't do anything about it.

P.S. Thanks

Even tough it was released on steam recently, that port has existed since 2000. As such so has a fix, you and your friend did four days of work for nothing im afraid.

The mod for the old one to replace the MIDI with streaming music (Roses and Wine) doesn't work on the Steam version. In fact, this was specifically an update for Roses and Wine. Either way, there was no excuse for Square-Enix to release like that, and it's absolutely pathetic a mod was out faster than they could do it themselves.

But at least back in 2000, there was an excuse for it.

P.S. Thanks

Twenty Ninjas:
But wasn't the PC version of Dark Souls priced less than the console versions?

Not in Australia at least. 80 bucks on launch.

Jasper Kazai:
PC ports have been largely shit for awhile. The 360 has made PC gaming shittier than any other thing. Developers don't even bother to make keyboard/mouse work well with their games - why bother when you can just plug in a 360 controller? It's fucking sad that I have to resort to using a controller on PC games because the developers didn't want to make the effort to make the actual control scheme of a PC function properly.
An example I use of laziness is the PC version of Dead Island - the full retail PC version has an achievement that is *only obtainable by using a controller.* It is 100% impossible to use a keyboard/mouse for it, because it requires you using a control scheme that you can only access if you have a controller plugged in. Yeah, I know achievements aren't "necessary," but I for one usually try to earn as many achievements as I can, and to have to use an outside accessory that SHOULDN'T be even in the equation is ridiculous.

And the saddest part is, you can't even be mad at that controller-only achievement when there's still so many games that don't even include achievements in the PC version. War for Cybertron comes to mind as an example. Even the Assassin's Creed games (including the newly released 4) don't have Steam achievements. (They have do Uplay achievements, but come on, who the fuck cares about Uplay?)
Of course, I could go on about Ubisoft PC ports... very shoddy. In AC Revelations, there are these side puzzles you can play as Desmond. But in the PC version, every time you enter the portal to load one of the puzzle levels, it literally closes the game and reopens a new instance to load the level, and then does the same when you finish the level. Just... why?

Dead Island I found significantly easier and better to play on PC. When I found people were mocking mostly the original state of the game, I pirated the original version so I could see how bad it was. It still ran incredibly well on my fairly old machine on max settings, and still played better then when I played it on console control wise. Achievements DO NOT matter. They SHOULDN'T be on PC games because its a crutch used by developers instead of actually giving a game a sense of fucking achievement. Achievements should not fucking exist period.

And news flash, more then half the genres gaming has play worse on keyboard and mouse by design. The ONLY genres that play better on KB&M is FPS, TPS and Strategy. Stop thinking its because developers are lazy. The only way to design for example a platformer to work better on KB&M is if you make the controller version terrible intentionally.

EDIT: Ooh, and Adventure games play better with a mouse.

Twenty Ninjas:

Strazdas:

Playing videogames are one thing a computer can do. I repeat again, Its about people chosing to use keyboard and mouse because they LIKE it.

So what's your point. I never claimed it was a good port.

The point was that "you can just plug controller and play" assumption didnt really help anyone because not all gamers used controllers or even preferred them.

Rainbow_Dashtruction:

And news flash, more then half the genres gaming has play worse on keyboard and mouse by design. The ONLY genres that play better on KB&M is FPS, TPS and Strategy. Stop thinking its because developers are lazy. The only way to design for example a platformer to work better on KB&M is if you make the controller version terrible intentionally.

EDIT: Ooh, and Adventure games play better with a mouse.

I diasgree. I play everything with Keyboard and Mouse, including fighting games and platformers. I even play racing games on it though admittedly wheel is far superior here. I even do flying games nicely if the developer bothers to program the mouse-joystick ability properly. Its all a matter of preference. In things like FPS mouse is simply mroe responsive method, but in games like fighting games its all about preference there.

Strazdas:

The point was that "you can just plug controller and play" assumption didnt really help anyone because not all gamers used controllers or even preferred them.

So an assumption that I certainly didn't word that way doesn't help anyone because it doesn't help everyone.

Sure.

Twenty Ninjas:

That's a shitty analogy. The Dark Souls port was both functional and had more content for free. And assuming you played it with a controller, you had about the same thing as the console version.

Not to mention From only did it because of the petition.

Sure you only have to forget about the graphical bugs that you would have to patch, and the online connectivity bugs that you would have to patch. Oh and the ports opening, and the OPnP.

I'm loving the game, but it's the worst port i've had the pleasure to enjoy.

Qvar:

Sure you only have to forget about the graphical bugs that you would have to patch, and the online connectivity bugs that you would have to patch. Oh and the ports opening, and the OPnP.

I'm loving the game, but it's the worst port i've had the pleasure to enjoy.

What are you talking about. There aren't any graphical bugs (and there certainly aren't any patches for them) and the online connectivity works just like on consoles.

Opening ports? Never had to.

Twenty Ninjas:

What are you talking about. There aren't any graphical bugs (and there certainly aren't any patches for them) and the online connectivity works just like on consoles.

Opening ports? Never had to.

I guess they made those DSfix and DSCfix patches for no reason then? Hint: The first one fixed the graphical lag. The C of the second one stands for Connectivity. Yet even with the DSCfix, I had to open all ports and the OPnP until it would let me summon people into my world (it did let me be summoned to other peoples worlds tho)

Qvar:

Twenty Ninjas:

What are you talking about. There aren't any graphical bugs (and there certainly aren't any patches for them) and the online connectivity works just like on consoles.

Opening ports? Never had to.

I guess they made those DSfix and DSCfix patches for no reason then? Hint: The first one fixed the graphical lag. The C of the second one stands for Connectivity. Yet even with the DSCfix, I had to open all ports and the OPnP until it would let me summon people into my world (it did let me be summoned to other peoples worlds tho)

DSFix is meant to allow higher resolutions by changing the internal rendering, and adding graphical options such as antialiasing. It's not meant to "fix graphical bugs". The game running at 720p is not a bug, it's very much intended. And I'm not even sure you know what lag means.

DSCFix is a fix for easier connectivity between the people who have it. You don't need it to connect to other people. Opening ports isn't a standard action and it's more of a fault with your internet connection settings than the game itself.

Twenty Ninjas:
DSFix is meant to allow higher resolutions by changing the internal rendering, and adding graphical options such as antialiasing. It's not meant to "fix graphical bugs". The game running at 720p is not a bug, it's very much intended. And I'm not even sure you know what lag means.

I recall the DSfix readme specifically tells you to DEactivate antialiasing before ever playing, so I highly doubt it's function is to add that very same option it is preventing you to use.

Well certainly not lag as in internet speed lag, nor bugs as in "this graphical effect just turned out to be a blue polygonal mass", but I'm not sure which word use there to say "it slows and stutters like playing a it on a SNES", which happened the first time I tried to play it without fixes.

You may be rigth about the DSC.

Qvar:

I recall the DSfix readme specifically tells you to DEactivate antialiasing before ever playing, so I highly doubt it's function is to add that very smae function it is preventing you to use.

Well certainly not lag as in internet speed lag, nor bugs as in "this graphical effect just turned out to be a blue polygonal mass", but I'm not sure which word use there to say "it slows and stutters like playing a it on a SNES", which happened the first time I tried to play it without fixes.

You may be rigth about the DSC.

*Sigh*

Taken from dsfix.ini:

############# Anti Aliasing

# AA toggle and quality setting
# 0 = off (best performance, worst IQ)
# 1 = low
# 2 = medium
# 3 = high
# 4 = ultra (worst performance, best IQ)
aaQuality 0

# AA type
# either "SMAA" or "FXAA"
aaType SMAA

It tells you to deactivate in-game AA because using the two options together will result in the screen being 1/4th the size. It's a direct consequence of the fix. Higher-end PCs can turn up the AA and it will provide better sharpness.

Stuttering happens because of your hardware and the port's rather poor optimization. Most people won't have a problem with how it runs though. I'm not sure what dsfix does that fixes the problem.

Point is, while dsfix, dsmfix, dscfix and dsvfix (anti-cheater mod) certainly help, the game is fully capable of running without them on the majority of rigs that can support it.

Alrigth, alrigth, you win! Is there an anticheater mod? I have to try that... 2 out of 3 invasions the darkmoon ring called me for, I found a hacker with invulnerability mod on. Killed one of them kicking her out of one of the bridges, but still infuriating.

Cybylt:
[

At first I thought the video was taking the piss out of PC "master race"-ers for asking for a port, and then throwing massive bitchfits when they got exactly what they asked for.

That would have been epic, actually. It's a shame he tied games like Dark Souls to actually broken, unplayable shit.

Twenty Ninjas:
You don't understand.

You mistake "don't understand" for two separate issues: "am addressing Jim's argument," and "think another argument is absurd."

Jim said he didn't want more. Hell, I've seen this before on the Escapist, where people pretended it was actually worse than the PS3 version and demanded they get the same quality. the problem is, they did.

I also think the argument that a port needs more it it's inferior to be absurd and contrary. I get your argument, I merely reject it. Especially in the case of Dark Souls, where PC gamers knew what they were getting and whined for it and then complained about it when they got it.

It's bloody ridiculous.

The one thing I don't understand is that kind of response. It seems hypocritical and falsely-entitled.

Seracen:

Oh, I agree.

No, YOU listen to...Oh. Wait. Heh.

But yeah, I do get that's why they get a pass. I just felt like pointing out it's also sort of the intrinsiic flaw in the system. The capacity to make content becomes an obligation to dig around and fix things. But you are aware of that. So...Ummm...Carry on...

I admit, I'm sort of guilty of this myself. I wouldn't have touched the PC version of Saints Row 2 if people hadn't modded all the shit out of it. However, I only got the game in 2013, so I'm wondering if I've really done any harm. CD Projekt stopped supporting the game like two days after release. I'm pretty sure the damage is done.

But I would be remiss to pretend I've never bought a game because someone else has fixed it.

I will also add I understand why people put up with a certain degree of glichiness and the like. When I bought GTA V I expected what was potentially the largest and most ambitious sandbox game of its time to have some flaws. But there are apparently some big ones in story mode, and they have fucked up literally every step of the way with online (which is what I cared about in the first place), so they've gone well beyond what I expect from a company.

And glitches have always been around and will likely persist no matter the level of quality control. Some of them are even cool.

I think there has to be some level of perspective, is all. But this isn't specifically aimed at you, so much as tacked on to my stream of thought as I go.

Zachary Amaranth:
[quote="Cybylt" post="6.836268.20491982"][

No, YOU listen to...Oh. Wait. Heh.

But yeah, I do get that's why they get a pass. I just felt like pointing out it's also sort of the intrinsiic flaw in the system. The capacity to make content becomes an obligation to dig around and fix things. But you are aware of that. So...Ummm...Carry on...

I admit, I'm sort of guilty of this myself. I wouldn't have touched the PC version of Saints Row 2 if people hadn't modded all the shit out of it. However, I only got the game in 2013, so I'm wondering if I've really done any harm. CD Projekt stopped supporting the game like two days after release. I'm pretty sure the damage is done.

But I would be remiss to pretend I've never bought a game because someone else has fixed it.

I will also add I understand why people put up with a certain degree of glichiness and the like. When I bought GTA V I expected what was potentially the largest and most ambitious sandbox game of its time to have some flaws. But there are apparently some big ones in story mode, and they have fucked up literally every step of the way with online (which is what I cared about in the first place), so they've gone well beyond what I expect from a company.

And glitches have always been around and will likely persist no matter the level of quality control. Some of them are even cool.

I think there has to be some level of perspective, is all. But this isn't specifically aimed at you, so much as tacked on to my stream of thought as I go.

Yep, also a reason I tend to get PC launches. However, for me, Saint's Row 2 was one of the few exceptions.

No matter how many mods and patches I downloaded, I could never get the PC version to work for me. It's sad really, b/c I ended up buying the damn thing twice as a result.

I'm still pissed at EA for never acknowledging those of us who fixed their bugs on Dragon Age: Origins for PC. I didn't even want money for my contribution, just a "thank you." Although I won't lie, some free DLC would have been nice too.

But it's EA, I don't know what I'm expecting...

Strazdas:

The point was that "you can just plug controller and play" assumption didnt really help anyone because not all gamers used controllers or even preferred them.

So don't play a game if it's not suited to/built for your play style?

I hear Rocksmith requires a guitar to operate. Does this bother you?

Zachary Amaranth:

You mistake "don't understand" for two separate issues: "am addressing Jim's argument," and "think another argument is absurd."

Jim said he didn't want more. Hell, I've seen this before on the Escapist, where people pretended it was actually worse than the PS3 version and demanded they get the same quality. the problem is, they did.

I also think the argument that a port needs more it it's inferior to be absurd and contrary. I get your argument, I merely reject it. Especially in the case of Dark Souls, where PC gamers knew what they were getting and whined for it and then complained about it when they got it.

It's bloody ridiculous.

The one thing I don't understand is that kind of response. It seems hypocritical and falsely-entitled.

It depends on your standards. Comparing it directly and strictly to a console version is hard - what if it requires specs that are 4 times higher than a console to even work (as is the case with dark souls)? What if controller works just fine, but mouse and keyboard (the main control setup for PC) doesn't work at all? What if the game never permits more FPS and resolution than a console version's? PCs have the power to render things at much greater fidelity, and you kinda expect ports to take advantage of that power. What can qualify as "just fine" on a console can be needlessly restricting on PC.

If you're going to argue that the port works just as well as it did on a console because it works with a controller and console graphics, sure, that works.
But if you're arguing that the console version used its specifications to full and complete power while the PC was a half-assed ordeal that never took advantage of its entire potential, then you'd also be right. It just depends on your point of view. I'm very sure Jim also considers bad ports to be ones that don't offer anything more in terms of functionality. And in my opinion as well, a game should take advantage of the system it's being run on.

The thing with Dark Souls was that it came as a result of a petition from a very inexperienced team that didn't even think of porting it until consumers demanded it. But if the same thing happens with Dark Souls 2 I'd be rightfully pissed.

Zachary Amaranth:

Strazdas:

The point was that "you can just plug controller and play" assumption didnt really help anyone because not all gamers used controllers or even preferred them.

So don't play a game if it's not suited to/built for your play style?

I hear Rocksmith requires a guitar to operate. Does this bother you?

IF you make a game you make it work with PC controls - keyboard and mouse. If you dont want to do that dont make the port.

The whole point of this video was your first sentence - we should not play games that fail to do properly on PC, and we shoudl shame them too if it can be fixed by an outside in 24 hours.

And yes, it does bother me.

Saying stuff like if you can't do X then don't make it is just elitist.

Dark souls was not a 'good' port but it did the job and even without patches it's still an amazing game and lot of people enjoyed and still enjoy it but in many peoples opinion we shouldn't be able to enjoy this game because they did have the time to rework the controls in a good way for keyboard and mouse.... how about you just don't buy the game and we can enjoy the game.

As for Bethesda they do pay back the people that fix there games by making the game easily modifiable and investing time and money in to making the modding tools for the game which are free. Really, if any company deserves a pass on this it's Bethesda because they built there modding community all the way back at Morrowind.

Funnily enough if you look at Battlefield which turned it's back on modders by becoming closed is now full of bugs and probably would be a working game by now is getting hammered for it (considering there delaying DLC and stuff just to make fixes).

At the end of the day releasing a buggy game isn't that bad because the people that don't care and rather get the game a month or 3 earlier get the game and the people that have the issue with it can just wait till it's on steam sale and save some $$.

Lastly, as for the people fixing these games getting credit. Do remember that making mods and fixing games is one of the cheapest ways to get into the gaming industry for some and for others it's just a hobby which they enjoy.

I agree! GTA 4, while being a really good game, suffered several issues with the PC port. I didn't realise just how bad it was until I played it on a friend's XBox 360. I also tried Saints Row 2 but the quality was woeful and the game, while doing it's best, wasn't as much fun as it should have been, thanks to the issues.

Although it's not a port, Mass Effect 2 required someone else to make a patch that allowed people who had PAID MONEY for the game to actually play it, thanks to the notorious CD-Key issue. To this day I still have to use the "no-dvd" hack to play a game that I still have the receipt for. Incidentally, I showed this receipt to EA when they asked me to and then they went very quiet - bluff-call fail?

To be fair, Dark Souls and Deadly Premonition *were* equivalent to the console versions (while leaving out most of the stuff that PC gamers take for granted... like higher resolution, graphics options or actual Keyboard/Mouse support).

And Durante isn't just some kid that came "from the Internetz" but I believe the guy has a doctorate in computer graphics stuff, so he probably knows what he's doing.

If you are looking for bad console ports, Saint's Row 2 or Resident Evil 4, RAGE (this one had no excuse, coming from id Software with Carmack himself behind it), possibly GTA IV.

I also disagree with the "better not release it at all" slogan, better visit http://pcgamingwiki.com/ for a few minutes and be able to fix the game myself than not be able to play it at all.

It doesn't help that the media in general fawns all over any given developer/publisher with every new release that comes out and completely ignores what they did before instead of holding them accountable. Maybe if they started putting their money where their mouth was, things might start to change.

The first minute-and-a-half of this video was just about the funniest, most cathartic thing I have ever seen in my life.

Thank God

for you.

canadamus_prime:
So Jim, are you expecting someone in the community to release a patch for your script? XD

Oh my God can I ^^?

Imagine paying 100(ish) bucks in Australia for terrible console ports.

I played the unpatched version of dark souls on my years-old PC that barely met the system requirements.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I had zero problems with it.

It was exactly the same as the console version, except not laggy.
I never expected them to do anything special with the port, considering it was a years-after-the-fact release.
Honestly, yeah, it was a bad port to PC because people expect to be able to change settings and shit, but if it was a port to another console, nobody would have batted an eye.

Been gone sooo time to respond

Brian Tams:

EDIT:

Vicioussama:
I disagree that Dark Souls was a "shitty port." Mediocre port? Yes. Shitty? No. It was playable without ANY fix.

That's humorous. I certainly remember my copy (and many others) immediately crashing to desktop or coming up with a fatal error on start up.

Really? Gonna say it's humorous eh? You claim your copy immediately crashed eh? Why? Did you look into it? Maybe it was your computer? you claim many others, but what percentage? If it's under the average amount considered fair for scientific error? Then you're kinda not in the right here. Which is actually upwards of 10%. But even then, it's usually around 5% most consider acceptable. Let's look at the people complaining about bricked PS4s or XBones ya? Well reports show that the failure rate of the consoles so far is about less 1% for each. That means the consoles are, for the most part, a great success. With Dark Souls PC version, the failure rates, as far as I could find, is far less than the acceptable percentage. Something like 3% iirc. It sucks if you had those issues, I know people did, but did it later get patched? or did you later fix it by fixing your computer? I highly doubt it was just the "DSFix" (especially on Day 1 when it was FAR less than what it is now) that did it.

My point can be found in this other person's quote below.

JambalayaBob:
I played the unpatched version of dark souls on my years-old PC that barely met the system requirements.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I had zero problems with it.

It was exactly the same as the console version, except not laggy.
I never expected them to do anything special with the port, considering it was a years-after-the-fact release.
Honestly, yeah, it was a bad port to PC because people expect to be able to change settings and shit, but if it was a port to another console, nobody would have batted an eye.

Basically this. It was not a "bad port" it was a mediocre port. It worked, it worked better than consoles. But it didn't work with the native control scheme of the PC nor did it work to the average PC gamer's full computer's power capacities. However, FROM Soft was ENTIRELY fair and open with the fact it would work about the same (moderately better) than consoles and really best work with a controller.

Basically, people hating on it are way to unrealistic/unfair with their standards and ignore information given to them prior to purchase or they are just jumping on the bandwagon.

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