Upskirt Danger Caused Sex Change in Ico's The Last Guardian

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Gladion:
Pretty stupid argument. The designer thought to change the character because he thought that if the player had to climb half the game the main char should fit that part of the gameplay - a young boy, still a child vs. a young woman, more grown-up than child. Which one is more likely to climb things all the time? The skirt thing was probably just a joke. It's both a legit and imho good decision.
Still:

Jumplion:
Fumito Ueda is pretty much the only real damn developer that's thinking about every aspect of his game as he sees fit, like an author or an artist.

That is just wrong.

Yes, thank you enlightening me with your vast knowledge and explaining to me just exactly how wrong that statement was. I had never thought of it that way, as "just wrong", so I am ever so thankful for your enlightening statement.
[/clear_sarcasm]

Fumito Ueda is pretty much one of the only developers out there with some artistic balls. So people are angry that a slightly older girl was initially an antithesis to the creature's strength, so he changed it to a male child, presumably weaker in some aspects, as the new antithesis and people are crying "sexist!" about it?

You should be happy that he's even considering the concept of an antithesis at all! Contrast is important, people!

Putting her in trousers is a good idea.

(when everyone was saying pants I forgot about how Americans say it so it seemed worse for a few seconds!:P)

ProjectTrinity:

Jumplion:

Thank you. You are awesome.

No, YOU sir, are awesome. I should just my previous posts and just say "*Refer to Jumplion*".

Tell me when you start making out,
I have a camera and paying customers.

Aside from that: Why are people so eager to assume the WORST POSSIBLE reason for his decision ?
Dude made some awesome games, cut him some slack.
Its not like he is some kind of commited sexist or social deviant or, even worse, Japanese or something like that.

ProjectTrinity:

Jumplion:

Thank you. You are awesome.

No, YOU sir, are awesome. I should just erase my previous posts and just say "*Refer to Jumplion*".

I will vehemently defend this game and Team ICO, but I am always open for debate and arguments about stuff. The thing is, people think of Team ICO games like any other, but you can really analyze them very well, and analyzing them just enriches the experience of the games (for me, anyway).

You can't think of every painting in the same regard, or every movie the same way, or read every novel the same way. You shouldn't do that with the "artsy" games either, especially Team ICO games. While Fumito may be flattered by the "art" label but doesn't know why they regard it as such, that doesn't change SotC or any other Team ICO game's artistic integrity. I know I'm sounding like a huge "artsy" snob right now, but regardless, I love Team ICO and will defend them as much as I see fit.

Twilight_guy:
Games need more female protagonists! I demand a lady in pants!
...Wow, I really just wrote that...

It might be better to demand boys in skirts :D

boholikeu:
I read the headline and initially thought "wow that's pretty progressive for a Japanese developer. Usually they are all for the upskirt fan service". Then, as the article points out, I realized he could've just put her in pants...

And any shred of respect I had was dashed when I read the bit about choosing a female character as the natural antithesis to a strong creature.

ProjectTrinity:

So if this guy prefers to have a guy than a girl wearing pants, then so be it. He's pretty awesome for it. How many Japanese developers stop and say "...I don't want my female to have upskirt issues. At all."? I wonder if there's any other developer this awesome. [/fanboyism]

So he&s awesome because he views women as simply being weak rather than sexually objectifying them?

Covarr:
Women in Japan don't generally wear pants, and little girls especially don't. It's not a matter of chauvinism or anything, it's simply the way their culture is. It wouldn't even think to most Japanese people to question is, in their minds it's no different from men not wearing skirts.

See, this is a culture that understands something that the US frequently seems to miss: it's okay for genders to be DIFFERENT, and that doesn't automatically make them unequal in some way.

P.S. Thanks

kickyourass:

thank you for the insight.

As someone that lives in Japan, I'd like to let everyone know this is not true. Plenty of women here wear pants. Japan may have different expectations of each gender than the West, but this is not one of them

How different are the expectations? I have heard a lot about Japans cultrue, but I don't whats true and whats made up.

TheAmazingHobo:

ProjectTrinity:

Jumplion:

Thank you. You are awesome.

No, YOU sir, are awesome. I should just my previous posts and just say "*Refer to Jumplion*".

Tell me when you start making out,
I have a camera and paying customers.

Aside from that: Why are people so eager to assume the WORST POSSIBLE reason for his decision ?
Dude made some awesome games, cut him some slack.
Its not like he is some kind of commited sexist or social deviant or, even worse, Japanese or something like that.

Sure I'll tell you when, but, who's paying to watch that? ' -'

EDIT: You know, I'm not sure what the reasons people are so eager not to think a little more about this...

Oh wait...I answered my own question.

A girl wearing something other than a skirt not cool with the Japanese?

Jumplion:

ProjectTrinity:

Jumplion:

Thank you. You are awesome.

No, YOU sir, are awesome. I should just erase my previous posts and just say "*Refer to Jumplion*".

I will vehemently defend this game and Team ICO, but I am always open for debate and arguments about stuff. The thing is, people think of Team ICO games like any other, but you can really analyze them very well, and analyzing them just enriches the experience of the games (for me, anyway).

You can't think of every painting in the same regard, or every movie the same way, or read every novel the same way. You shouldn't do that with the "artsy" games either, especially Team ICO games. While Fumito may be flattered by the "art" label but doesn't know why they regard it as such, that doesn't change SotC or any other Team ICO game's artistic integrity. I know I'm sounding like a huge "artsy" snob right now, but regardless, I love Team ICO and will defend them as much as I see fit.

Ironically, just before you came in, I went into an artsy rant twice here with alternative versions of what you wrote. lol I'm a big fan of Shadows of the Colossus (I like ICO, for having the guts to do what it did), and it's complete suckage for my favorite developer in gaming today get the sexist card played so casually/emotionally.

Surprised I was when you brought up the 'put on pants' argument. I'm surprised mods didn't try to desperately try to cross reference our IP addresses.

ProjectTrinity:

Sure I'll tell you when, but, who's paying to watch that? ' -'

Im in Germany atm,
lets just assume Ill find someone.

Covarr:
Women in Japan don't generally wear pants, and little girls especially don't. It's not a matter of chauvinism or anything, it's simply the way their culture is. It wouldn't even think to most Japanese people to question is, in their minds it's no different from men not wearing skirts.

See, this is a culture that understands something that the US frequently seems to miss: it's okay for genders to be DIFFERENT, and that doesn't automatically make them unequal in some way.

P.S. Thanks

thank you, for implanting some common sense into this thead :)

TheAmazingHobo:

ProjectTrinity:

Sure I'll tell you when, but, who's paying to watch that? ' -'

Im in Germany atm,
lets just assume Ill find someone.

Haha. Point taken! Make sure the camera is in HD.

Hehe you are all saying pants. Pants is British for panties.

So, yes, by all means put her in pants, and pants alone.

Bigfootmech:
Suuuuuure, they "realized it by chance".

I would actually put money on the face that they probably wanted to make a normal game to the Japanese, then it found it's market in the west and they had to change the specifications.

Oh cultural differences, will we never learn to tolerate them?

yeah the company with releases that have worldwide acclaim was going to focus their title just on japan, do you even know the guys previous work, id tell you but i think it'd be more fun for you to go look it up.

Fronzel:

Covarr:
See, this is a culture that understands something that the US frequently seems to miss: it's okay for genders to be DIFFERENT, and that doesn't automatically make them unequal in some way.

And the effect of genders being different here is that the girl doesn't get to exist.

thats because its a character driven story not some rpg where they make it generic so any made up person can do it, the storyline was built around a character archetype (weak child) originally female, figured they didnt want pervs oggling a female and chose a boy due to the aesthetics of the world they had generated. This is a pre-industrial society and pretty much world over they had skirts more common then trousers (on females). And regardless of that, even today its more common to see a girl with a skirt then a girl in trousers or pants (As you americans call the ) apart from very specific situations. Yes girls wear trousers, but thats not the issue, or at least not a factor in why it was changed.

bahumat42:

Fronzel:

Covarr:
See, this is a culture that understands something that the US frequently seems to miss: it's okay for genders to be DIFFERENT, and that doesn't automatically make them unequal in some way.

And the effect of genders being different here is that the girl doesn't get to exist.

thats because its a character driven story not some rpg where they make it generic so any made up person can do it, the storyline was built around a character archetype (weak child) originally female, figured they didnt want pervs oggling a female and chose a boy due to the aesthetics of the world they had generated. This is a pre-industrial society and pretty much world over they had skirts more common then trousers (on females). And regardless of that, even today its more common to see a girl with a skirt then a girl in trousers or pants (As you americans call the ) apart from very specific situations. Yes girls wear trousers, but thats not the issue, or at least not a factor in why it was changed.

Good man, my army is steadily growing and growing...

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Team ICO rules

Pants would solve your issues or even a long skirt/gown like attribute. These Japanese really don't know how to compromise, do they now?

Im all for the whole pants thing, but Fumito strives for realistic fantasy yknow mythological creature move relisticly and act like actual animals. This ties to a female protaganist as this takes place in a older time. An ancient civilization. So to get that realism and since most ancient civs women wore skirts.

Well, to summarise the thread:

Just put some damn pants on, oh, nevermind, that's a Japanese cultural taboo, uh, what's wrong with upskirt shots, this game is Japanese made, and why so gender swap.

That's pretty much everything I was going to say, already said by the entire forum.

Awww. That would have been cool to see a female character in this.

Just...put some fucking pants on her or something, for god's sake!

is it just me or was he saying pretty mysogynist things about women being weak in his explination besides the skirt thing?

so what now we got a boy with a skirt on and there is a lot of climbing?

how does that help any more then having a girl lol :p

Ok, now get ready for this...GIRLS CAN WEAR PANTS TOO! =D

Seriously. I mean, I understand that with the aesthetic and all, a waifish girl would probably look more picturesque in a skirt, but changing the character's gender still seems like the more complicated option to me. But then I guess since we all accuse Japanese games of having rather feminine male characters, perhaps the change is not so great after all...

Raziel_Likes_Souls:
Well, to summarise the thread:

Just put some damn pants on, oh, nevermind, that's a Japanese cultural taboo, uh, what's wrong with upskirt shots, this game is Japanese made, and why so gender swap.

That's pretty much everything I was going to say, already said by the entire forum.

The thread already covered that question. Nicely. ' -'

ProjectTrinity:

Raziel_Likes_Souls:
Well, to summarise the thread:

Just put some damn pants on, oh, nevermind, that's a Japanese cultural taboo, uh, what's wrong with upskirt shots, this game is Japanese made, and why so gender swap.

That's pretty much everything I was going to say, already said by the entire forum.

The thread already covered that question. Nicely. ' -'

So yeah, everything I posted was already covered.

Hell, I feel the opposite of everyone wanting to put pants on a female. I too feel that keeping the charactor a female, but in a skirt without any underpants! I'm surprised that Japanese developers didn't come up with that solution!

Fucking Christ man just give her pants. I'm a girl and was at one point an adolescent girl. I WORE PANTS. Still do too now that I think about it.

That's the worst logic I've ever heard. If its true, which I doubt. Sounds like an excuse to me, a weak one.

Or he could have the boy dress like a girl.

ProjectTrinity:

boholikeu:
So he&s awesome because he views women as simply being weak rather than sexually objectifying them?

Please don't stretch/change the original intent of my post(s) anymore. Or infer it. Anyways, It's rude not to answer someone, so here you go:

He has a preference for ladies in dresses. I have a similar preference. He rather not put a girl in the game at all if she has to wear pants, at least, that's what we got here. So, what's the problem? This alone is no means 'absolute proof' that he 'views women as simply being weak'. Clothing preferences never will determine his actual views. Or mine. Maybe the original girl had a preference for a dress, but the camera made him go 'Heh, nope'. Maybe it's custom in that world. Maybe he just loves dresses. I ~hope~ I'm not being ironic and stretching your own comment, but are you telling me that he HAS to view women as 'weak beings' for a variable that very easily could suggest otherwise?

You'd also have to lump me into that camp as well, for I'd do the same thing as he did. [Unless they were REALLY cool pants, but the kind of pants I'm thinking don't fit his world much at all.]

Sorry, I should have clarified that I was referring to his other comments about initially wanting a female character because he wanted the protagonist to contrast with the strength of the creature. I don't think it's sexist that he prefers women in dresses, but I do think it's a bit off that when he thinks of "weak" he automatically thinks of a female character.

Jumplion:

boholikeu:
I read the headline and initially thought "wow that's pretty progressive for a Japanese developer. Usually they are all for the upskirt fan service". Then, as the article points out, I realized he could've just put her in pants...

And any shred of respect I had was dashed when I read the bit about choosing a female character as the natural antithesis to a strong creature.

So he's a bastard for replacing a female child with a male child as the antithesis for strength? I don't think children of any sex have that much strength.

Oh my god! He could have put pants on his character, and we'd have a female as a character instead of a stupid male one! HOW DARE HE!!

He's not a bastard. He is slightly sexist for initially thinking of a female child as the antithesis of something strong, and then eventually deciding a male child would be okay after all because "their grip is naturally stronger anyway".

Jumplion:

So he's awesome because he views women as simply being weak rather than sexually objectifying them?

Pure ad homeniem, completely unfair and fabricating what he's saying, and no, he's awesome because he thinks about every aspect of a game and how they would fit. He's the only one that has some artistic balls in this whole industry, and if he thinks that having a young, male child for a protagonist would make a bit more sense, then let him do it.

Seriously, people, why the hell are people getting their panties-oh, I'm sorry, pants, in a twist over this? You're condemning a Japanese developer for thinking that we gamers are a bunch of sick fucks? I, for one, applaud him for foreseeing the possibilities and looking through every aspect of his game as an artist would for his painting, or how an author would for his novel.

Personally, Fumito Ueda is one of my personal idols in game design.

Again, I'm not criticizing him for the fact that he chose a male protagonist over a female one. I'm criticizing him for his comments about why he made that choice.

Zeekar:
To those butthurt few individuals that seem to be throwing a feminism fueled temper tantrum over this:

Artists can and will do ANYTHING they want to bring their visions to fruition. This includes changing characters as they see fit. Udea decided that a male lead made more sense and that is fine.

His opinion on what sex would have been better for this game does not make him sexist; it makes him a man of artistic integrity. Chances are there were many reasons for the change.

Grow thicker skin - there is absolutely nothing to be gained by rampant political correctness. It just makes you look like a raving reactionist.

Your're right. His opinion on what sex would have been better for the game do not make him sexist; his reasons for that choice do.

Artistic integrity do not absolve one of making sexist choices. I applaud the fact that he has the balls to do what he thinks is best for his game, but at the same time I am still free to criticize him for those choices. By your logic we should not criticize D. W. Griffith for "Birth of a Nation".

Zeekar:
Chances are there were many reasons for the change.

There could have been, but sadly the only reasons he stated were somewhat sexist. I can only judge him on what he says, not other hypothetical reasons that he never mentions.

Scarecrow 8:

How different are the expectations? I have heard a lot about Japans cultrue, but I don't whats true and whats made up.

Well it depends what you are talking about. If you list me some specific things you've heard I can tell you what's true and what not, but otherwise it's kinda hard to just sum up the gender politics of an entire country in one blog post.

Yeah, where's the pants for the girl, short-shorts under a tunic works too, especially for that time era, in any fantasy >.>

Twilight_guy:
Games need more female protagonists! I demand a lady in pants!
...Wow, I really just wrote that...

yes yes you did and this is a great moment in gamer history, be proud of yourself proud sir.

Raziel_Likes_Souls:
Well, to summarise the thread:

Just put some damn pants on, oh, nevermind, that's a Japanese cultural taboo, uh, what's wrong with upskirt shots, this game is Japanese made, and why so gender swap.

That's pretty much everything I was going to say, already said by the entire forum.

Actually Japan does not have any cultural taboo against women wearing pants. That's part of the reason his comments seem so strange.

Starting to see why all Team Icos games sell like shit.
Stupid dev, pants or a "skirt shadow" woulda been much much easier.

magicmonkeybars:

Twilight_guy:
Games need more female protagonists! I demand a lady in pants!
...Wow, I really just wrote that...

It might be better to demand boys in skirts :D

Marcus Phoenix now needs to wear a dress... it must happen.

nekoali:
That sound you hear is my head repeatedly striking my desk over the huge amounts of sexism depicted by Fumito Ueda. First he wants a weak hero to counterbalance the strength of the creature in the game. So naturally he things of a girl. Because you know. Women are all weak, soft creatures who can never on their own be strong, independent and kick butt on their own. y'know, despite all the strong, female, independent kick butt characters in games, media and real life.

And naturally, if we have a girl character, she'll wear a skirt. Because all girls wear skirts, always. You'll never see a girl wearing pants while clinging to a monster or fighting. Besides, boys have a stronger grip.

Dear Mister Ueda. Kindly pull your head out of your ass and join us in the 21st century, where women are equals and wear pants. Thanks.

He isn't quoted as saying weak but agile. Her strength doesn't come from force but something else.

I was going to say that he doesn't imply women are weak so much as girls but then the same could be said of boys so I agree with you on this part.

And the skirts thing.. don't see why pants can't be an option

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