I've always said it's not rape if it's an Elf, though mostly to horrify (or amuse) party members in FFXI who believe I'm mistelling a fragment of linkshell chatter, so I suppose it's only fair for the same to apply to homosexuality.
To quote a Discworld's Monsterous Regiment: "So you're both female. I've always said 'If it's a Troll who knows, and if it's an Elf who cares?' Erm, no offence."

In all seriousness though I agree with Bioware, and see it as one of those steps foreward to being a media art form like movies and books. Since it's not using the six axis controller, kinect, move, etc then the hardware developers can't do anything about it regardless of how hard the people with belts on their hats wave torches and pitchforks.

jamesworkshop:

JediMB:

jamesworkshop:

ME existed as an idea long before commiting to paper, DA:O was far larger in scope and within the production means of a company of this size.

This paranoia is just strange Bioware writes one particular character as being exclusivly heterosexual and it's all...

EA suppressed it because they obviously pander to the homophobe market they also are chasing.

No the lead script writer hates gays.

The marketing department said no cos Halo fan won't be interested. after all thoses other bioware RPG's they loved

All entirely baseless accusations.

You're strawmanning. Please don't.

Really, let's be honest:

"The only reason MaleShep can't be gay is because they don't want to risk scaring off the stereotypically homophobic Halo crowd."

Your words, on the second page of comments

So I leave it upto the good judgement of the rest of the escapist if my 4th point is a strawman, that such a statement may well be a hypothesis to be considered, but not taken as a valid point of comdemnation.

I can't make my point clearer than it is, it is more logicaly consistant to believe that Bioware's narrative desicion on the sexuality of the character they envisaged and created was not beholdend to outside influence.

Look at the statement this thread is a result of, a firm conviction that Bioware is operating as normal
(full expresion of the spectrum of sexuality is not a new idea, Bioware is about the only ones attempting to master it maybe not in everygame still I see no issue with ommision in what is only 2 games)
we do what we want, they don't care they are not going to back down, for the acceptance of a bigoted crowd with no other argument than

"you simply can't..why not..because you can't"

"oh but we can and will continue to do so"

That as much as I have left to say on the matter

Are you aware of the delicious irony inherent in your position?

On one hand you ask that others accept and respect the sexual identity of the LGBT community but on the other you provide a practical demonstration that when given the opportunity they are unwilling to accept and respect the sexuality of others. I'll grant you that the people whose sexual identities are being violated are entirely fictional but to what degree is this fueled by simple disrespect of the sexuality of others and their complete and utter inability to resist exploitation?

If you had made an effort, any effort, to empathize rather than demonize, berate and rage against the bigots you so much detest you might have come to the realisation that the gay fantasy you're busy defending (Everyone's gay, I just haven't taught them to enjoy it yet.) might just be nightmare fuel to someone else.

And for the record, I think Dragon Age struck a pretty damn good compromise as far as representation went at the sexual identity table. Although if they're going to include a gay option in future they might want to make it less Zevran and more Arcade Gannon. It surprised the hell out of me that Obsidian entertainment beat Bioware to include what is probably the first truly respectful representation of a guy who happens to be gay.

Paradoxrifts:

jamesworkshop:

JediMB:

You're strawmanning. Please don't.

Really, let's be honest:

"The only reason MaleShep can't be gay is because they don't want to risk scaring off the stereotypically homophobic Halo crowd."

Your words, on the second page of comments

So I leave it upto the good judgement of the rest of the escapist if my 4th point is a strawman, that such a statement may well be a hypothesis to be considered, but not taken as a valid point of comdemnation.

I can't make my point clearer than it is, it is more logicaly consistant to believe that Bioware's narrative desicion on the sexuality of the character they envisaged and created was not beholdend to outside influence.

Look at the statement this thread is a result of, a firm conviction that Bioware is operating as normal
(full expresion of the spectrum of sexuality is not a new idea, Bioware is about the only ones attempting to master it maybe not in everygame still I see no issue with ommision in what is only 2 games)
we do what we want, they don't care they are not going to back down, for the acceptance of a bigoted crowd with no other argument than

"you simply can't..why not..because you can't"

"oh but we can and will continue to do so"

That as much as I have left to say on the matter

Are you aware of the delicious irony inherent in your position?

On one hand you ask that others accept and respect the sexual identity of the LGBT community but on the other you provide a practical demonstration that when given the opportunity they are unwilling to accept and respect the sexuality of others. I'll grant you that the people whose sexual identities are being violated are entirely fictional but to what degree is this fueled by simple disrespect of the sexuality of others and their complete and utter inability to resist exploitation?

If you had made an effort, any effort, to empathize rather than demonize, berate and rage against the bigots you so much detest you might have come to the realisation that the gay fantasy you're busy defending (Everyone's gay, I just haven't taught them to enjoy it yet.) might just be nightmare fuel to someone else.

And for the record, I think Dragon Age struck a pretty damn good compromise as far as representation went at the sexual identity table. Although if they're going to include a gay option in future they might want to make it less Zevran and more Arcade Gannon. It surprised the hell out of me that Obsidian entertainment beat Bioware to include what is probably the first truly respectful representation of a guy who happens to be gay.

By they do you mean Bioware or do you mean to say that their possition (some other posters) is being bigoted towards the heterosexuality of Male shep. Or that I am too combative with different points of view.

I don't believe that making a character straight is an attack or harms the LGBT, my main view is that Biowares character are first and foremost characters not representatives of real life people.

I don't think everybody is gay i'm only defending Biowares right to produce content that fits the creative vision it's perfectly reasonable for Bioware to not have a character be anything you could name, DA:O left the gates wide open because of the large ammount of PC variation, Shepard is basicly a Face and skin tone in terms of variation.

AS for the validity of Biowares characters then that's a factor of the talent of the writters.

I felt that with the backstory it was compatable with Zeveran being Bi-sexual, but in fairness I have to admit I don't know any Bi-sexual individuals.
But then DA:O was a huge game in scope and maybe it will be more polished next time, always time to better learn your craft.

jamesworkshop:

By they do you mean Bioware or do you mean to say that their possition (some other posters) is being bigoted towards the heterosexuality of Male shep. Or that I am too combative with different points of view.

Sorry mate, my bad. I hit the wrong quote button by mistake. I meant to quote kael013's post and things just went downhill from there. Again, my bad I suck. :P

Paradoxrifts:

jamesworkshop:

By they do you mean Bioware or do you mean to say that their possition (some other posters) is being bigoted towards the heterosexuality of Male shep. Or that I am too combative with different points of view.

Sorry mate, my bad. I hit the wrong quote button by mistake. I meant to quote kael013's post and things just went downhill from there. Again, my bad I suck. :P

OMG I was really puzzled trying to fit myself around your points

jamesworkshop:

Muta Ro:
So why oh why cant Bioware do this in Mass Effect. Fantasy setting sure you can have same sex relationships but you SciFi setting game, no you can have it D: Why bioware, why doesn't Mass Effect get no same sex love but you can throw aliens at us to love?

No one is forcing them not to they just decided not to do so, besides nothing stops you from roleplay a Homosexual character their simply wasn't any other charactyers for them to sleep with notice how in DA:O the only two party members were bi-sexual none were exclusivly same sex orientated, so for ME series they have not had any characters to make swing both ways.

They may be pushing the storytelling limits in different ways in their different series. As things go on they might allow both in Mass Effect. Who knows?

I don't know if to feel happy that Bioware hasn't cracked under the pressure completely and has understood that romances are optional and that some of their fan base isn't straight; or sadden people are actually complaining about optional content they don't even need to register exists if they don't want to. It's not as though the scenes are explicit. Suggestive, maybe, but not explicit. Correct me if I am wrong, but not registering that maybe there is a non-straight community that wishes their character to reflect their sexuality choice, may be close to not being allowed to make a character that is of an alternative ethnicity to white.

voetballeeuw:
Bueno, although I hope they add a character better than Zevran. Did not like him very much, must have been the accent.

It was the accent all right, and the fact that the SOB back-stabbed me...

RelexCryo:

For crying out loud, why does Square Enix keep reducing Lara Croft's and Tifa Lockhart's Breast sizes!?

Possibly so that we can actually believe they could do all the stunts and action mves they do without either wildly unbalancing themselves or being in agonizing pain whenever they do a flip/jump/roll/ take a flight of stairs too quickly? :p

Oh and on the Shepard debate? Well he/she is in the military... clearly they've still not moved on a lot with discriminatory policies in the 22nd century, and if Shepard was discharged from the military who would have stopped Saren?
And in the 2nd one he's working with Cerberus, clearly they're not just racists but homophobes too...
No reason why Shepard can't come out of the weapon locker in ME3 though!

EDIT: The former hypothesis is intended as joke, not a comment on realism in games.
The secondary is also intended for humourous purposes and is in no way an expression of the author's views on commander Shepard's sexuality; the UK, USA or any other military organisation upto and including the System's Alliance of the Mass Effect Universe; homosexuality and the morality thereof; Cerberus' political intentions and/or Biowae's intentions and portrayal of these and other themes.
Any opinions presented in the preceding material do not represent those of 'Spark Ignition', 'Biowar'e or 'The Escapist'.
For a more thoughtful and serious discussion on any of these subjects please:
a) Deconstruct my words in depth and as if they were a real argument;
b) Insult me as a homophobe/misogynist
c) Quote me out of context.

The Rogue Wolf:
I find it both amusing and telling that the majority of complaints against same-sex relationships (almost excusively, against male-and-male) come from male gamers who say "I'm not comfortable with that subject so I don't want to see it ever". Which, to me, translates to "I'm not comfortable with thinking about male homosexuality, but rather than examine why I'm uncomfortable with it I just want games to never ever have any instance or even reference to it".

To the best of my knowledge, none of these games are forcing any male character to commit to, or even explore, a homosexual relationship. So it seems to me that many of these arguments are just an extension of "ewwwww, that's gross". But then again, this is the same demographic who berated a female Mod maker because she was releasing male-specific nude Mods for Oblivion and Morrowind, with the argument that it was "gay". Kids... can't live with 'em, pass the beer nuts*.

* Cookie if you get the TV reference.

I fully support the writer in his choice to have same sex relationships in the game, because honestly it doesn't matter to me at all. I'm indifferent when it comes to somebody else and their sexuality. As for that female modder though, man, I don't feel any remorse for her. I actually found her personal website and looked through a lot of her mods and stories. Whoa boy. She's a broken deviant, which is cool and everything but I'm not gonna have any sympathy for her. I just feel bad for people like that.

Spark Ignition:

RelexCryo:

For crying out loud, why does Square Enix keep reducing Lara Croft's and Tifa Lockhart's Breast sizes!?

Possibly so that we can actually believe they could do all the stunts and action mves they do without either wildly unbalancing themselves or being in agonizing pain whenever they do a flip/jump/roll/ take a flight of stairs too quickly? :p

Oh and on the Shepard debate? Well he/she is in the military... clearly they've still not moved on a lot with discriminatory policies in the 22nd century, and if Shepard was discharged from the military who would have stopped Saren?
And in the 2nd one he's working with Cerberus, clearly they're not just racists but homophobes too...
No reason why Shepard can't come out of the weapon locker in ME3 though!

As I recall, With Tifa's Limit Break move, Meteor Strike, she literally picks up the enemy, leaps 20 feet straight up and punches them back down.(And Zell, who was the Final Fantasy 8 martial artist, literally runs around/circumnavigates the entire damn planet to punch the enemy.) Lara can push blocks weighing about 5-7 tons. They both live in a universe filled with magical powers. They both break our concept of physics pretty thoroughly on a regular basis. So making them seem more believable...is pretty much pointless. You just have to accept their crazy ki/magical powers lets them do amazing things to get immersed in their worlds in the first place.

RelexCryo:

For crying out loud, why does Square Enix keep reducing Lara Croft's and Tifa Lockhart's Breast sizes!?

At least personally, a game can come across as annoying and degrading if it's obnoxiously sexual. Women with needlessly and ridiculous sized breasts are one of the many ways a game can do this. However, I get the feeling I may be in the minority, especially since I seem to be one of the few people who considers Bayonetta an overly-sexual version of Devil May Cry.

RelexCryo:

Spark Ignition:

RelexCryo:

For crying out loud, why does Square Enix keep reducing Lara Croft's and Tifa Lockhart's Breast sizes!?

Possibly so that we can actually believe they could do all the stunts and action mves they do without either wildly unbalancing themselves or being in agonizing pain whenever they do a flip/jump/roll/ take a flight of stairs too quickly? :p

Oh and on the Shepard debate? Well he/she is in the military... clearly they've still not moved on a lot with discriminatory policies in the 22nd century, and if Shepard was discharged from the military who would have stopped Saren?
And in the 2nd one he's working with Cerberus, clearly they're not just racists but homophobes too...
No reason why Shepard can't come out of the weapon locker in ME3 though!

As I recall, With Tifa's Limit Break move, Meteor Strike, she literally picks up the enemy, leaps 20 feet straight up and punches them back down.(And Zell, who was the Final Fantasy 8 martial artist, literally runs around/circumnavigates the entire damn planet to punch the enemy.) Lara can push blocks weighing about 5-7 tons. They both live in a universe filled with magical powers. They both break our concept of physics pretty thoroughly on a regular basis. So making them seem more believable...is pretty much pointless. You just have to accept their crazy ki/magical powers lets them do amazing things to get immersed in their worlds in the first place.

Haha sorry Cryo I was joking, not trying to construct an actual argument (I would have gone into greater depth if I had!).
If you want my real answer I'm actually with Riobux there. Yes naturally us heterosexual guys do apreciate 'well-endowed', shall we say, women, however when overemphasized on a female game character it can seem a tad insulting, as if the devs are trying to trick us into instantly liking them on the basis of boobage alone. Not in all cases, for instance Tifa was a damn good character I thought, but Lara Croft? Bayonetta? Every female character in every fighting game (from my experience, never been a fan of tekken, DOA and the like, I will wholly admit I;m wrong on that if someone proves me wrong)? Mere breasts, innuendo, suggestive camera angles and contrived reasons to get their clothes off with only the slightest bit of character and backstory to justify them. Bayonetta was insulting to my intelligence and my manhood (and my nationality, that "british" accent was just about the worst thing in gaming ever)
Given this perception (and believe me a lot of male gamers feel the same way as I do) it's not surprising that the devs might want to downplay the sexualisation of these characters in an atttempt to prove there's more to them and appeal to a more intellectually discerning audience. I for one tend not to buy games that look like they put more time into perfecting 'jiggle-physics' than they did writing.
But that's just my opinion, and tbh I'm taking your word for it that they did indeed reduce their breast sizes... I don't like tomb raider and when advent children came out I was too busy enjoying the action sequences to notice tifa's tits!

Aren't they warm and fuzzy! And yes, I do appreciate it even if I don't happen to pursue it in-game.

"The resources we can devote to a minority of players isn't great, but I imagine to those players it's quite worth it," he continued. "And I would hope that some folks could be sensitive enough to be happy for those players, at the very least out of the selfish notion that they may one day end up in the minority of some content issue and receive the same consideration if nothing else."

This is so well said that it was beautiful, thank you Bioware.

People can really be offended by all kinds of stuff. I mean, if it's optional, don't go for it. It's THAT simple.
Really glad to see Bioware didn't give in to the homophobic comments.

Same here. I can't wait to see what other games they make and any uproar comes from any unconventional ideas put into the story.

Here here I say!

Homophobia is so pointless, (if you love someone why the hell should it matter their gender, love is love). And bioware is awesome, its nice that they are really sticking to their guns and making something that will make folks happy, and its important that the gay/lesbian community are in more gaming mediums me thinks.

Here is just one reason why gaming is great.

No other medium would have produced a metaphor this perfect for a pro Gay rights position. I mean think about it, Bioware is saying that if you do not intend to be gay (in a video game) then you have no rational reason to stop another persons right to be gay (In a video game). Because if you don't intend to pursue that option, then it doesn't hurt you. That's pretty much the perfect metaphor for gay rights.

When I was a kid, I played a little game called Ultima VII. Now as one of the sort of easter eggs, you could pay to be with a prostitute at Buccaneer's Den. There were both male and female prostitutes, and the game didn't care which one you chose.

I found out neither did I.

And I still don't care. It's silly to get worked up over someone else's sexuality. But what is even more absurd and silly is getting worked up over the sexuality of someone who is entirely fictional. So good on Bioware for not caving this time around.

Thanks for not caving to squeeling biggots Gaider.

To people complaining about Bioware not doing the same thing in Mass Effect:

When someone donates money to a children's hospital, you don't ask them why they didn't donate more or why they didn't donate to a different charity as well. You thank them.

This is certainly a great point, but where was this guy when this subject came up in the development of Mass Effect? Biowares attitude towards gay romance in Mass Effect makes me doubt the sincerity of their efforts to please a minority, and makes me think that they don't have a fair attitude towards homosexuality, that its okay in a fun fantasy setting but not in a gritty military one.

Nice to hear a sensible and almost common-sense response to the purile complaints.

Xanadu84:
Here is just one reason why gaming is great.

No other medium would have produced a metaphor this perfect for a pro Gay rights position. I mean think about it, Bioware is saying that if you do not intend to be gay (in a video game) then you have no rational reason to stop another persons right to be gay (In a video game). Because if you don't intend to pursue that option, then it doesn't hurt you. That's pretty much the perfect metaphor for gay rights.

Interesting point.

I see no problem with it.

What? you were expecting something long winded about social norms? Move on already!

TragicHero84:

Muta Ro:
So why oh why cant Bioware do this in Mass Effect. Fantasy setting sure you can have same sex relationships but you SciFi setting game, no you can have it D: Why bioware, why doesn't Mass Effect get no same sex love but you can throw aliens at us to love?

seriously. i was all ready to sex up Kaidan Alenko, and was really bummed out when I realized I couldn't. ahh, kaidan...

That and why not with Jack either. The dialogue seemed to infer her being bisexual. It just struck me as a bit off. There's that whole nasty "only a man can help her reconcile her past" bit too. It doesn't seem deliberate and that's what makes it so annoying.

I think if Bioware (or any dev) really want to ride the gay rights/homophobia controversy bus to school then maybe they should incorporate it into narrative mechanics. Imagine the shit storm if when you boned Zevran you woke into a battle with Sten to the death (which lets be honest, would be so in keeping with his character).
We get the whole "good and evil" thing everywhere, but why not incorporate character creation choices into the narrative. Morrowind was a good example; if you chose a female character there was an entire mission you could skip because one of the characters was a feminist (sort of).
A possibility for DA2 (probably too late, I know); the Elves are a subjugated race so if you play as an elf and are a bastard then the world oppresses them more and if you are virtuous then no more alienages because the world has lost its fear and mistrust of your species.

I demand male Shepard on male Elcor hardcore action in ME3! What do you mean it's not going to happen?! You humans are all racist! Err, sexist. Or homophobic or something.

Okay, perhaps not :-) Although the Shep character is somewhat customizable it does not surprise me that they don't really give you a same-sex romance option in it. I can quite grok that the character was never intended to be bisexual or gay in his/her over-riding story arc. And hell, even if Bioware did intend originally on giving that as a possible option they are a company out to make money - and if that includes making sacrifices to potentially appease skittish customers, so be it.

Horribly stereotyping here, but I suspect their reasoning behind including same-sex romances in DAO and not ME/ME2 is that the type of people who play fantasy oriented games would probably be more open to that sort of relationship than the types who prefer more modern war-like shooters.

Small steps, and DAO is a step in the right direction for which Bioware and other companies should be commended :-)

Props to Bioware for not caving in. It's good to see at least one forward thinking developer sticking to their laurels. :D

Too true, too true. Myself I don't go for the gay romance option (unless it's two chicks like Shepard and Liara) but hey, art mirrors life and real life has gay romance in it. I don't want it for myself but that's just me.

Great thing though was that Zevran was at least acted like a guy and wasn't always worried about his nails or some other such marlarky. To add another quote to the one in the article: "It doesn't matter where you want to stick it, so long as you can do a sweet ass finisher move on an ogre."