Internet Explodes Over Origin's Invasion of Privacy

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Sonicron:

JediMB:
I had Origin on to download Mass Effect 2 (at 11 MB/s), and have on occasion started it up to check the store. Hardly enough time for it to magically scan my harddrive and dump all my secrets on EA's servers. *rolls eyes*

Can you absolutely confirm this? I don't know how these things work. I have Origin installed, but most of the time it's not on; does it have to be on in order for EA to gain access to my system, or does the mere presence of this program constitute a suitable backdoor?

I can't "confirm" anything. My common sense is just telling me that the Origin software itself is completely harmless right now, and it's only the ToS/EULA that is dangerous and needs to be changed to actually reflect what the software does.

JediMB:

teisjm:
Question is, will i be able to turn off origin like i do steam, so i only need to open it, while playing BF3?

I "use" Origin, and I don't even need to have it on while I'm playing my Origin version of Mass Effect 2.

Okay, that helps a bit.

Still, i don't wanna get bombared with weird inapropriate offers from ea cause they scanned my internet history.

On a side-note, This got me thinking: will that TOS give them your legal consent to scan your computer for passwords and share them with their bussiness partners?
While i doubt that they would do it, I find it concerning if installin gorigin gives them the legal right to.

Get the console version then?

This is exactly why there will be other ways of playing Bf3.

The_root_of_all_evil:

TimeLord:

But stealing (most commonly) involved trespassing onto another's property also,

Trespass doesn't involve retail.

and manslaughter is still a crime.

Only if you're charged.

It's the consumers own fault for saying yes to a question without asking what the question was. Stealing and murder don't involve the questions; "Wuld you like your possessions taken without consent?" Or "Would you like me to end your life?".

Wrong.

As I said earlier, you have no right to waive your own rights (which the EULA states you have done) and you must be fully aware of what you've agreed to for it to be legally binding (Hence the Miranda warning). There's also the problem that it implies you're legally bound by looking at the documentation, which is totally bulldrek.

For instance, here's a line lying in wait in some EA EULAs. EA MAY RETIRE ONLINE SERVICES AFTER 30 DAYS NOTICE POSTED ON www.ea.com/2/service-updates.

Now that means that if they've posted something (Even if that part of the site is down), they may then delete the entire server with no recompense. For Any Reason. At Any Time. Rendering your purchase null.

What other item do you have that can be rendered null in thirty days due to someone posting something on the internet?

Even BBC iPlayer tells you when your recordings of Doctor Who expires. EA expect you to go to them to find out.

That has nothing to do with it. They can do it because it's not illegal. Yes it's immoral, and contains amazing amounts of douchbaggery from EAs part, but they can. Does not a ToS and TaC agreement state, quite clearly, at the end, "I have read and agree to the Terms and Conditions" then you require to tick a box and a continue button to accept it. They both are and aren't trying to tick you. If they decide to shut down the servers, if you agreed to it, then you have no comeback because you agreed to it. Otherwise those people who kept playing Halo 2 when the servers were shut down could have sued someone.

Goddamit Internet, don't lock me out when there's something interesting going on.

The-Epicly-Named-Man:
Honestly, who gives a sh*t? If you don't want to get Origin either;
a) Get the console version of BF3
b) Don't buy BF3
c) Pirate a version with a work around
If none of those options appeal to you, then f*ck off you idiot.

a) Oh dear god no. Not for an FPS.
b) Probably this, which is a shame.
c) The banhammer shall be upon you soon my son.

And this is why I will never ever install Origins. And why I trust Steam about as far as I could throw one of their servers.

Physical games purchased in an independent (non Gamestop) store and played on a console with PSN turned off - that's the only way to be sure. Like nuking the site from orbit.

The-Epicly-Named-Man:
Honestly, who gives a sh*t? If you don't want to get Origin either;
a) Get the console version of BF3
b) Don't buy BF3
c) Pirate a version with a work around
If none of those options appeal to you, then f*ck off you idiot.

But you're missing the point - option C shouldn't be the superior choice. It shouldn't even be a necessary choice to make.
Publishers do nothing but encourage piracy with this kind of thing.

I'm not normally sensitive on these things, but I actully uninstalled Origin on my computer now. I only had it for the Battlefield 3 Alpha.

Anyway, if I ever get BF3, it will be on my Xbox, so I guess I'm safe?... I don't know but EA certainly lost some respect in my eyes.

TimeLord:

That has nothing to do with it. They can do it because it's not illegal.

That's the problem that you're missing.

It's not illegal. It's not legal. It's not POSSIBLE.

They're asking you to sign a contract that you cannot legally commit to - so you breach it before you sign it.

Yes it's immoral, and contains amazing amounts of douchbaggery from EAs part, but they can. Does not a ToS and TaC agreement state, quite clearly, at the end, "I have read and agree to the Terms and Conditions" then you require to tick a box and a continue button to accept it. They both are and aren't trying to tick you. If they decide to shut down the servers, if you agreed to it, then you have no comeback because you agreed to it. Otherwise those people who kept playing Halo 2 when the servers were shut down could have sued someone.

And that's the second problem. It's protected. They do have full legal rights to do that.

EA are basically saying "By reading this document, you're agreeing to it. Do you agree? If you don't agree, you must delete it all."

Which you can't.

That's where the whole problem comes from. You're not only guilty until proven innocent, you can't prove your innocence.

That's creepy, on so many levels. I'd understand hardware data, as it would allow them to monitor their games on a wide variety of machines, but the ability to send data about absolutely anything sounds like an invasion of privacy. Glad I haven't downloaded Origin. Less likely too in the future...

It's EA, did anyone really expect any less?

TheDarkEricDraven:
Fucking EA! Hard. Copies. Come on people! I don't want to be the guy who's telling everyone to "Go back to horses, motors are just a fad!" but seriously!

The hard copy will likely only be playable through Origin.

The_root_of_all_evil:

TimeLord:

That has nothing to do with it. They can do it because it's not illegal.

That's the problem that you're missing.

It's not illegal. It's not legal. It's not POSSIBLE.

They're asking you to sign a contract that you cannot legally commit to - so you breach it before you sign it.

Yes it's immoral, and contains amazing amounts of douchbaggery from EAs part, but they can. Does not a ToS and TaC agreement state, quite clearly, at the end, "I have read and agree to the Terms and Conditions" then you require to tick a box and a continue button to accept it. They both are and aren't trying to tick you. If they decide to shut down the servers, if you agreed to it, then you have no comeback because you agreed to it. Otherwise those people who kept playing Halo 2 when the servers were shut down could have sued someone.

And that's the second problem. It's protected. They do have full legal rights to do that.

EA are basically saying "By reading this document, you're agreeing to it. Do you agree? If you don't agree, you must delete it all."

Which you can't.

That's where the whole problem comes from. You're not only guilty until proven innocent, you can't prove your innocence.

You can say no though. Say no, Origin doesn't continue with the install, take the game back to where you bought it and swap it for PS3 or 360. Problem solved. It's not ideal, granted.

Could be just me, but doing these thing doesn't seem to help EAs plan for bf3 to be the cod killer.

that being said I can't belive it's acctauly legal to put that in a ToS. guess I won't be playing bf3 until the change that. vote with your wallet!

...

Gee, I don't think I want Battlefield 3 that bad after all.

TheDarkEricDraven:
Fucking EA! Hard. Copies. Come on people! I don't want to be the guy who's telling everyone to "Go back to horses, motors are just a fad!" but seriously!

Most hard copies still require Steam. The last 2 Dawn of War games I bought said nothing more than "Requires and Internet connection to activate". And yet when I tried to install it, it forced a download of the entire game through Steam without any alternate options. Which I didn't mind because I like Steam, but it kinda defeats the point of hard copies in the end.

the real problem is that you can't avoid origin with B3, i already canceled my preorder but if the game tanks/does not do as well upper management is gonna blame dice, not stupid origin.
i just origin is not mandatory for ME3, because while i could play B3 on my PS3 i really want to use my saves from ME2.

I wasn't planning on getting Origin anyway. If a game forces me to install it; bad luck for me then. I'm not playing it. Not that I'm that keen on my privacy, I just hate having to install third-party software for games. Steam included.

You do realize that almost all TOS include the caveat that your data will be either sold to or provided to third parties, right, or am I the only person that reads the TOS.

TimeLord:

You can say no though. Say no, Origin doesn't continue with the install, take the game back to where you bought it and swap it for PS3 or 360. Problem solved. It's not ideal, granted.

Uh-uh

I wish it was that simple.

http://www.ea.com/1/privacy-policy:
By registering for an EA Account (also known as an Origin Account), using this site and/or any of EA's online or mobile products and services, you agree to EA's Privacy Policy and that we may transfer and store your account information in the USA. By registering, you agree that EA may process your data in accordance with the following privacy policy and that you will abide by EA's Terms of Service.

IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THIS POLICY, PLEASE DO NOT USE ANY EA SITE, ONLINE OR MOBILE PRODUCT OR SERVICE.

So, by copy/pasting that, I'm "officially" agreeing to their Privacy Policy and allowing my details to go to the USA.

Regardless of what I feel, what I've agreed to, or that I've never bought/downloaded an EA product.

Simply by reading that EULA, I'm bound by it.

http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/:
By using EA Services, you affirm that you are at least 18 years of age (or have reached the age of majority if that is not 18 years of age where you live) or that you have reviewed this Agreement with your parent or guardian and he or she assents to these Terms of Service on your behalf and takes full responsibility for your compliance with them. You agree that you and/or your parent or guardian are fully able and competent to enter into the terms, conditions, obligations, representations and responsibilities set forth in these Terms of Service, and to abide and comply with these Terms of Service.

You agree to check terms.ea.com periodically for new information and terms that govern your use of EA Services. EA may modify the Terms of Service at any time. Revisions to terms affecting existing EA Services shall be effective thirty (30) days after posting at terms.ea.com. Terms for new EA Services are effective immediately upon posting at terms.ea.com.

TL;DR: Your parent is fully liable for any charges without their needed agreement and you must look at our stuff because we can change it at any time.

That may not be illegal per se, but that's bending the customer/proprietor relationship to breaking point. And a child who signs up without their parent knowing still puts their parent at legal risk without their knowledge. And that IS illegal.

Even if you say no, you're breaching the contract, because you've already said yes by reading it.

I hated being forced to install Origin to play ME2. I love the game but I'm seriously considering uninstalling the whole thing since this is beyond ridiculous.

Pandalink:

The-Epicly-Named-Man:
Honestly, who gives a sh*t? If you don't want to get Origin either;
a) Get the console version of BF3
b) Don't buy BF3
c) Pirate a version with a work around
If none of those options appeal to you, then f*ck off you idiot.

But you're missing the point - option C shouldn't be the superior choice. It shouldn't even be a necessary choice to make.
Publishers do nothing but encourage piracy with this kind of thing.

That probably didn't come across very well, I wasn't defending them, it was just that people have already decided whether they want Origin or not. The not party (which I'd include myself in) keeps whining about what to do, or just flat out saying "EA, don't do this", neither of which accomplish anything. You can only decide your actions, not those of others, and those are pretty much you're three options if you don't want Origin, I mainly highlighted them as a (bad in retrospect) way of telling people to choose one and stop moaning.

Uff. But EA! I really want Battlefield! Fuck!

Ah well. There will be more games. :|

The_root_of_all_evil:

TimeLord:

You can say no though. Say no, Origin doesn't continue with the install, take the game back to where you bought it and swap it for PS3 or 360. Problem solved. It's not ideal, granted.

Uh-uh

I wish it was that simple.

http://www.ea.com/1/privacy-policy:
By registering for an EA Account (also known as an Origin Account), using this site and/or any of EA's online or mobile products and services, you agree to EA's Privacy Policy and that we may transfer and store your account information in the USA. By registering, you agree that EA may process your data in accordance with the following privacy policy and that you will abide by EA's Terms of Service.

IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THIS POLICY, PLEASE DO NOT USE ANY EA SITE, ONLINE OR MOBILE PRODUCT OR SERVICE.

So, by copy/pasting that, I'm "officially" agreeing to their Privacy Policy and allowing my details to go to the USA.

Regardless of what I feel, what I've agreed to, or that I've never bought/downloaded an EA product.

Simply by reading that EULA, I'm bound by it.

http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/:
By using EA Services, you affirm that you are at least 18 years of age (or have reached the age of majority if that is not 18 years of age where you live) or that you have reviewed this Agreement with your parent or guardian and he or she assents to these Terms of Service on your behalf and takes full responsibility for your compliance with them. You agree that you and/or your parent or guardian are fully able and competent to enter into the terms, conditions, obligations, representations and responsibilities set forth in these Terms of Service, and to abide and comply with these Terms of Service.

You agree to check terms.ea.com periodically for new information and terms that govern your use of EA Services. EA may modify the Terms of Service at any time. Revisions to terms affecting existing EA Services shall be effective thirty (30) days after posting at terms.ea.com. Terms for new EA Services are effective immediately upon posting at terms.ea.com.

TL;DR: Your parent is fully liable for any charges without their needed agreement and you must look at our stuff because we can change it at any time.

That may not be illegal per se, but that's bending the customer/proprietor relationship to breaking point. And a child who signs up without their parent knowing still puts their parent at legal risk without their knowledge. And that IS illegal.

Even if you say no, you're breaching the contract, because you've already said yes by reading it.

But that's only your account info that you decided to enter in. I would assume that entering details into account would automatically equal sharing it with said company. Not your personal computer data with private family photos and whatever else that you don't want to share.

I don't think this back and forth really matters to be honest. We both agree that it's shit and should not be allowed.

Boys will be boys... EA will be EA.
GABEN must be laughing SO loud right now while he plows through that 5000cal pink cookie of his!

Begging everyone's pardon, but... Dur-hey. Which is to say, I knew about this over a year ago back when it was misleadingly named, "EA Download Manager."

The way I found out about this unconscionable power grab was when I had the good fortune to win one of the Escapist's contests. The prize was a copy of Dragon Age: Origins plus various downloadable content. I received a set of download codes and a URL pointing me at EA.

When I visited the URL, firstly I was confronted with a web page written by kindergarteners which demanded about two dozen cookies and that JavaScript be turned on in every conceivable way. After finding a combo that worked, I was informed that I would need to download and install EA Download Manager before I could redeem the codes. EA Download Manager confronted me with a ponderous tome calling itself a license "agreement." Normally, I ignore such idiocy, as EULAs are an invalid form of contract. But here I was about to install a piece of software from a company that has shown itself to be oblivious to even the most rudimentary forms of socially redeeming behavior, so I started glossing it.

There was plenty to be offended by, and my conscience was duly shocked. I did some poking around EA's site to see if the game could be downloaded from the "store" rather than through EADM -- or, as I started calling it, stEAm. I even got an online chat droid to tell me that no, the codes were only valid through stEAm.

As interested as I was in the game, there was no way I was going to infect my machine with spy/mal-ware, no matter how shiny the user interface was.

The message you should take away from this is that Origin nee stEAm has negative commercial value. It actually subtracts value from the things around and connected to it. All copy protection systems in fact do this, but stEAm takes it to a whole new level. I got what was probably $100 worth of game and add-ons for free which I would have been happy to have. But then stEAm came tagging along, making its unconscionable demands, and all the value of everything else was drained away. Even when it was offered for free.

Voicing my concerns, I returned the prize codes to The Escapist unused, and said, "Please award these to another user."

Anjel:

2. Consent to WE OWNZ YOOZ.

You agree that EA may do you raw, no lube, and absolutely no pillow biting allowed. IF YOU DO NOT WANT EA TO DO THIS, PLEASE DO NOT GET INTO BED WITH THEM. We reserve the right to record and store the experience and upload to the internets so we can make moar money.

Um, gee, thanks for letting us know.

uuuh thanks for translating that for me : D
in other related news: piracy is stronger and more welcome than ever.
: D

A corporation grotesquely invading your computer privacy with software you have to download in order play their games on your computer?!

How long till anon do something about it?

Thanatus1992:

The-Epicly-Named-Man:
Get the console version of BF3

Oh dear god no. Not for an FPS.

What? It's not like FPS's are unplayable on a console controller, and there are certain benefits to using one. Why are so many people opposed to the idea of playing an FPS without a mouse?
Sorry, it's something that annoys me, but I agree with everything else in your post, so... carry on...

As I said in the other thread, I was on the wall with Origin, wasn't gonna get it right away because I wasn't sure whether they could be trusted.

Looks like I was right in my concern, this pleases my ego at the same time as it disgusts me.

So they can just ...look at what's on your PC because they say so. And they're making it mandatory to install the program with some games. What the fuck is EA doing?

TimeLord:

But that's only your account info that you decided to enter in. I would assume that entering details into account would automatically equal sharing it with said company. Not your personal computer data with private family photos and whatever else that you don't want to share.

True, but that's, as they say, "just the start".

I don't think this back and forth really matters to be honest. We both agree that it's shit and should not be allowed.

Nah, I'm not trying to argue with you, just providing a framework so that our friends from Reddit etc. can pick up and run off to their lawyer friends with. :)

Working for a big company I do understand how they have to introduce certain restrictions on what can be done just to stop people abusing the law, but I think that EULAs in general go beyond that and abuse the law themselves.

Catchy Slogan:
It still boggles the mind as to how this much of an invasion of privacy can be legal.

Technically speaking (and mind that in no way am I defending EA), there is no right to privacy. The closest thing is right to property. People can't just storm into your house or else you can have them arrested, but it isn't for invading your privacy, it's because they're invading your property. I mean, if you had a right to privacy, for example, then you could legally smoke weed. After-all, you're in the privacy of your own home when you do it; except that you don't have a right to privacy, simply the right to tell the cops to take a hike if they don't have a warrant.

But EA is still over-stepping their bounds, because while we may not have a right to privacy, we certainly have a right to say "No" to anyone trying to invade said privacy.

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