American Ambassador Lectures Aussies On Game of Thrones Theft

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What legitimate service? Foxtel? Austar? other crappy PayTV providers? When it's on-demand at a reasonable price ($3AU per episode) then he can bitch, not until then.

Seriously Mr. Ambassador, how about you have a talk to your companies that promote a culture of piracy here in Australia by charging us between two and four times the price for digital goods, huh? How about that.

Calibanbutcher:
Question:
If i was to pirate Game of Thrones during it's run on TV, because, in this hypothetical situation, I have no way of watching the series on TV, and then bought the DVD box, where would I stand, as far as karma, morality etc, is concerned?

I know that pirating is against the law, but if I go out of my way to get my money to the creators of the series, as fast as is humanly possible, by buying the DVDs as soon as they hit the market, would that make up for "pirating" the series?

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse pirating, nor do I torrent anything. I am talking about a hypothetical scenario.

morals are entirely subjective. i put it to you, where do you think you morally stand? and after you answer, i can respond with "and that's where you morally stand". personally, i'd say it's fine. you are contributing to sales. the issue is that companies often renew series based on initial viewing figures, as well as post-release DVD sales, so from a many company standpoints you are still in the wrong, because piracy is always technically wrong.

also, this guy:

ninjaRiv:
Oh, hey, nobody posted this yet? Cool.

EDIT: Embed was not cool. Here's a link http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

suitepee7:

Calibanbutcher:
Question:
If i was to pirate Game of Thrones during it's run on TV, because, in this hypothetical situation, I have no way of watching the series on TV, and then bought the DVD box, where would I stand, as far as karma, morality etc, is concerned?

I know that pirating is against the law, but if I go out of my way to get my money to the creators of the series, as fast as is humanly possible, by buying the DVDs as soon as they hit the market, would that make up for "pirating" the series?

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse pirating, nor do I torrent anything. I am talking about a hypothetical scenario.

morals are entirely subjective. i put it to you, where do you think you morally stand? and after you answer, i can respond with "and that's where you morally stand". personally, i'd say it's fine. you are contributing to sales. the issue is that companies often renew series based on initial viewing figures, as well as post-release DVD sales, so from a many company standpoints you are still in the wrong, because piracy is always technically wrong.

also, this guy:

ninjaRiv:
Oh, hey, nobody posted this yet? Cool.

EDIT: Embed was not cool. Here's a link http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones

I should probably mention that while I understand pirating a show like Game of Thrones because of the shitty way HBO release it, I actually save up for and buy the DVD box set.

Smilomaniac:
"Stealing is stealing"

Sure, if you don't care about definitions.

"and if people keep on torrenting quality content then those poor Hollywood artists will have to go back to waiting tables and parking cars to make a living."

Yeah, they might even have to live like the middle class. We should all feel bad for them :(

Actually the vast vast majority of 'Hollywood artists' do make a living by waiting tables and parking cars. A few of them can make a career out of it, and fewer still get filthy stinking rich, but there's so many trying to get into the industry that most of probably lives below the poverty line, never mind middle class.

Irridium:
So... is Game of Thrones offered only through cable providers, or are there streaming services available there? Are there DVD's available for purchase? Are they priced reasonably or do they jack up the price to absurd amounts like with video games?

Just like to get some context. Because if the only way to watch Game of Thrones in Australia is to sign up with a cable service (that might suck, or not. No idea, feel free to tell me if they do/don't) and catch it when it's on and nowhere else... then know shit they pirate it a lot.

HBO is kind of between a rock and a hard place here. They make their money through subscriptions, which ties them directly to the cable companies. To make their shows available digitally would harm their partnership with cable, and all the market research they've done suggests it would be a significant net loss to do so.

So while it isn't exactly the same it has a lot in common with a console maker looking to go with entirely digital sales. The benefits just aren't high enough to abandon retail sales yet.

I pay for HBO but if I couldn't catch it on Sunday I'll usually download it. I'd record it but my girlfriend records other shows.

As far as I know there's no way to watch it legitimately in the UK if you are a student without the possibility of a TV, so I'm going to end up waiting a year for the DVD it seems. People have mentioned iTunes, but it doesn't seem to be on there, not season 3 at least.

Desert Punk:

Kwil:

DVS BSTrD:
Yeah because EVERYONE can afford HBO. How many bronies do you think actually get the Hub? For Twenty of my twenty-five years, I've had to put up with either analogue or network.

Same excuse applies to Ferraris. It's just as wrong there too.

that would be Stealing, downloading a Game of Thrones episode isnt theft..

Yes, it is. This idea that theft requires someone to be deprived of something is a sophistry that only came up in the last 20 years or so, but it's been recognized that you could steal a person's ideas back to friggin' Gutenberg. That was, after all, the impetus behind the entire *existance* of copyright and patent, the realization that someone could steal -- that is, take without your consent, your ideas.

RandV80:

Actually the vast vast majority of 'Hollywood artists' do make a living by waiting tables and parking cars. A few of them can make a career out of it, and fewer still get filthy stinking rich, but there's so many trying to get into the industry that most of probably lives below the poverty line, never mind middle class.

Ah, so they are directly influenced by the amount of piracy, that is causing a massive detriment to the show, which is making next to no money. I see.

I don't see the connection between people trying to get into the industry and people who are behind this show, who are supposedly losing some amount of income.

Turns out its not the rich man who holds power, nor the priest, the king, or the man with the sword. Its the thief who's picking everyone's pockets while they're wondering who really holds the power!

This just give more reasons for having a Steam-but-with-movies platform.

Everyone wants to watch things when they want wherever they want. It won't stop piracy of movies but it will at least lower it by making it more widely available and easier to access.

I recognize that with the way cable providers work it would be difficult to create but I believe that this is the best solution either way.

Karloff:

"But artists' livelihoods depend on us rejecting that urge," says Bleich, "just as shopkeepers and small businesses depend on people not just stealing products from their shelves."

Damn you pirates, quit stealing our episodes! Now we can't show re-runs!
What have you done? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?

Hey look. It's another public official, fighting the good fight for corporate America.

At least it isn't the CIA this time

Mr Ambassador as apart of the production of the GOT Tv series you of all people should know that the world is not a nice place and that people do bad things while looking out for number one!!!

Also as has already been brought up we are descendant from criminals and one of our national heroes is an outlaw-robin hood living legend what did you expect?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly

Kwil:

Yes, it is. This idea that theft requires someone to be deprived of something is a sophistry that only came up in the last 20 years or so, but it's been recognized that you could steal a person's ideas back to friggin' Gutenberg. That was, after all, the impetus behind the entire *existance* of copyright and patent, the realization that someone could steal -- that is, take without your consent, your ideas.

Seeing as the illegal action of making a copy or downloading media is defined as breach of copyright or copyright infringement, it is not stealing in any form or way.

The fact is that people are so amazingly incapable of seeing a difference that they instantly relate it to the nearest crime. Luckily for them, governments across the world has defined it for them.
So it is not recognized as stealing and it's your own definition or viewpoint on the matter.

By the way, what you're talking about is the capitalization on the ideas of others.
This is not the case, since people are getting it for free. Even if a person was selling this material, they would still not be stealing, they would be counterfeiting.

For your argument to make sense, someone else would make the exact same show with other actors and then it would be plagiarism and STILL not stealing.

Then there's another approach(and tired argument), you could define it in a way that people responsible for downloading illicit copies, would cause a loss in profit. However, this is conjecture, since there is no guarantee that the people downloading the content would actually buy it for the offered price, or that they even have access to it at the given time, due to their location or any other reason.

In other words, calling it stealing is bullshit, or as you put it, sophistry.
Considering the two actions as the same type of crime, is also bullshit, especially since we're a society that's evolving and striving towards free information, that includes entertainment media.

We can agree that it's illegal(in most countries) and we might even agree that it has some sort of impact.
That impact, however, is not necessarily negative, considering that we've achieved lower prices on music, games and movies as well as better and easier availability, since the massive increase in copyright infringement due to the internet.

All in all, you should probably give up trying to convince people that it's stealing, because it's blatant misinformation and in my opinion, lobbyist propaganda.

Smilomaniac:
All in all, you should probably give up trying to convince people that it's stealing, because it's blatant misinformation and in my opinion, lobbyist propaganda.

Wow. And if your opinion meant anything to me, I might even take your advice. It doesn't though.

It is stealing in every way that matters to the general public. If you want to play legal pedant, you feel free, but it means somewhere between jack and squat to the reality of the situation.. it's stealing. Taking something belonging to someone else without their permission.

Kwil:

Wow. And if your opinion meant anything to me, I might even take your advice. It is stealing in every way that matters, and if you want to quibble about pedantry, you feel free, but don't assume you're convincing anyone.

I suppose if fact doesn't matter, it is pedantry.

I feel no need to convince you, but I am trying to enlighten you and make you appear as less of a total ignorant.
While I agree that a large portion of the general public is as informed on this matter as you are, it doesn't make it less false.
The consequences are different, the method is different, the crime is different and the penalty is different, but yeah, pedantry.

It's like arguing with a redneck who found a thesaurus.

Smilomaniac:
[quote="Kwil" post="7.406591.16928701"]
I suppose if fact doesn't matter, it is pedantry.

I feel no need to convince you, but I am trying to enlighten you and make you appear as less of a total ignorant.
While I agree that a large portion of the general public is as informed on this matter as you are, it doesn't make it less false.
The consequences are different, the method is different, the crime is different and the penalty is different, but yeah, pedantry.

It's like arguing with a redneck who found a thesaurus.

Oh, I'm well aware of all you're saying already. The fact is though, it doesn't matter.
Why doesn't it matter? Because most people aren't lawyers and feel no need to be.

Let me guess, if you hit someone's dog and they claimed you murdered their pet, you're the type who'd feel the need to correct them in that you just killed it, because murder only applies to people, right?

Kwil:

Smilomaniac:
[quote="Kwil" post="7.406591.16928701"]
I suppose if fact doesn't matter, it is pedantry.

I feel no need to convince you, but I am trying to enlighten you and make you appear as less of a total ignorant.
While I agree that a large portion of the general public is as informed on this matter as you are, it doesn't make it less false.
The consequences are different, the method is different, the crime is different and the penalty is different, but yeah, pedantry.

It's like arguing with a redneck who found a thesaurus.

Oh, I'm well aware of all you're saying already. The fact is though, it doesn't matter.
Why doesn't it matter? Because most people aren't lawyers and feel no need to be.

Let me guess, if you hit someone's dog and they claimed you murdered their pet, you're the type who'd feel the need to correct them in that you just killed it, because murder only applies to people, right?

The difference between stealing a car, killing someone's dog and pirating a movie is that in the former two you're actually denying the original owner access to the item they purchased.

In the latter case you're potentially denying the creator hypothetical revenue.

It isn't theft. You're right about the dog, it isn't murder, it's destruction of property that would likely carry a heavier sentence due to the moral reprehensibility of killing a pet companion of another - believe it or not but the judge does consider such facts when passing their judgement.

Kwil:

Oh, I'm well aware of all you're saying already. The fact is though, it doesn't matter.
Why doesn't it matter? Because most people aren't lawyers and feel no need to be.

Let me guess, if you hit someone's dog and they claimed you murdered their pet, you're the type who'd feel the need to correct them in that you just killed it, because murder only applies to people, right?

It matters because it's a unique phenomenon that has different consequences for our world and might very well be a part of a better society, where quality matters more than reality shows and mainstream shit.

It matters for reasons that I mentioned above. When would stealing ever benefit society in any possible way?
Why would it ever matter what the general public mistakes as stealing, when it has no effect on them apart from a beneficial one?

It's just not the same thing, it's that simple.

"Let me guess, you're the sort of person who has a twin for a wife and you'd accuse a guy who married her twin, for stealing your wife, right?" That's basicly what you're arguing for.

I'm not pedantic in general, no, but this is a matter that there's a lot more to than simple thievery or acquiring illicit goods. This is a topic that pisses me off to no end, because a bunch of smartass retards are more interested in calling it something it isn't while completely ignoring the larger picture of the matter itself.
So, when they start bickering about how it's black and white illegal and the same of stealing, I like to explain to them why they're wrong and why it matters. It's also a matter that I did a project on some eight years ago, that I received the highest grade and honors for, a time where I had considerably less experience and perspective.

Arguments like yours only exist in an attempt one up people they disagree with, with no interest in the topic itself and lower others to their status.
They claim to use common sense or logic, when their arguments are complete devoid of the same.

if the education system wasnt so goddamn bad in america, he would already know that australia was colonized by convicts and criminals...

Calibanbutcher:
Question:
If i was to pirate Game of Thrones during it's run on TV, because, in this hypothetical situation, I have no way of watching the series on TV, and then bought the DVD box, where would I stand, as far as karma, morality etc, is concerned?

I know that pirating is against the law, but if I go out of my way to get my money to the creators of the series, as fast as is humanly possible, by buying the DVDs as soon as they hit the market, would that make up for "pirating" the series?

DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse pirating, nor do I torrent anything. I am talking about a hypothetical scenario.

Personally in this entirely hypothetical situation I'd say it was not morally wrong, because they would still be making a sale. Considerably more so from the DVD than they would had you watched it on the television I'd assume.

As others have mentioned in other entirely hypothetical discussions. It's more or less impossible to follow anime outside of Japan in some countries without doing the same thing.

Irridium:
So... is Game of Thrones offered only through cable providers, or are there streaming services available there? Are there DVD's available for purchase? Are they priced reasonably or do they jack up the price to absurd amounts like with video games?

Just like to get some context. Because if the only way to watch Game of Thrones in Australia is to sign up with a cable service (that might suck, or not. No idea, feel free to tell me if they do/don't) and catch it when it's on and nowhere else... then know shit they pirate it a lot.

DVD's are released, but for some bizarre reason they release them just before the next season starts on television. So while season 2 was on TV over a year ago, the DVD release was only this year.

RandV80:

Irridium:
So... is Game of Thrones offered only through cable providers, or are there streaming services available there? Are there DVD's available for purchase? Are they priced reasonably or do they jack up the price to absurd amounts like with video games?

Just like to get some context. Because if the only way to watch Game of Thrones in Australia is to sign up with a cable service (that might suck, or not. No idea, feel free to tell me if they do/don't) and catch it when it's on and nowhere else... then know shit they pirate it a lot.

HBO is kind of between a rock and a hard place here. They make their money through subscriptions, which ties them directly to the cable companies. To make their shows available digitally would harm their partnership with cable, and all the market research they've done suggests it would be a significant net loss to do so.

So while it isn't exactly the same it has a lot in common with a console maker looking to go with entirely digital sales. The benefits just aren't high enough to abandon retail sales yet.

SacremPyrobolum:
This just give more reasons for having a Steam-but-with-movies platform.

Everyone wants to watch things when they want wherever they want. It won't stop piracy of movies but it will at least lower it by making it more widely available and easier to access.

I recognize that with the way cable providers work it would be difficult to create but I believe that this is the best solution either way.

I agree with your sentiment. If they were to follow steam's route they would be very profitable. Right now the problem with GoT is that it is a service issue. The only way to watch GoT legally is to go through their outdated draconian subscription service. While most shows are on itunes the next day, GoT takes several weeks to months to get on itunes.

I have no problem paying a reasonable amount per episode ($4-7) if I can get it either right after it airs or the following day.

All HBO is doing is training their GoT fanbase to just go the torrent route since they won't provide a better service. Of course there are those that will pirate no matter what but you would have to be pretty naive to believe that it wouldn't convert many people over (not speaking directly at person quoted fyi).

tkioz:

Seriously Mr. Ambassador, how about you have a talk to your companies that promote a culture of piracy here in Australia by charging us between two and four times the price for digital goods, huh? How about that.

This is the only decent response in the thread. Most of the rest is just shallow rationalisations for Piracy.

DVS BSTrD:
Yeah because EVERYONE can afford HBO. How many bronies do you think actually get the Hub? For Twenty of my twenty-five years, I've had to put up with either analogue or network.

The, I can't afford it therefore it's OK that I pirate it argument is used often and has never made sense. I can't afford a Luxury car but I don't think that entitles me to steal one.

Maybe make the prices of things developed in America and manufactured in China at a more reasonable price and Australians would be less inclined to nick things in general.

Eric the Orange:

DVS BSTrD:
Yeah because EVERYONE can afford HBO. How many bronies do you think actually get the Hub? For Twenty of my twenty-five years, I've had to put up with either analogue or network.

The, I can't afford it therefore it's OK that I pirate it argument is used often and has never made sense. I can't afford a Luxury car but I don't think that entitles me to steal one.

No, but it entitles you to download one.

GAunderrated:

I agree with your sentiment. If they were to follow steam's route they would be very profitable. Right now the problem with GoT is that it is a service issue. The only way to watch GoT legally is to go through their outdated draconian subscription service. While most shows are on itunes the next day, GoT takes several weeks to months to get on itunes.

I have no problem paying a reasonable amount per episode ($4-7) if I can get it either right after it airs or the following day.

All HBO is doing is training their GoT fanbase to just go the torrent route since they won't provide a better service. Of course there are those that will pirate no matter what but you would have to be pretty naive to believe that it wouldn't convert many people over (not speaking directly at person quoted fyi).

The 'Steam' route would certainly be the most user friendly method for watching Game of Thrones. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me who have been long time fans of the books but have never been an HBO subscriber, don't even watch that much TV to begin with, and could care less for there other shows. Game of Thrones is the only thing I want out of HBO, if I could buy it from them directly without having to jump through all the additional subscription hoops I'd do it in a second. I buy the DVD's but that takes about 8 months to come out.

HBO knows I exist, but like I said in my other post they've done the math and it doesn't add up to give me what I want. Think of them as something like World of Warcraft. They already have a large established user base using what has become an outdated payment model, as almost every other MMO out there is going F2P. But because of the establishment in place it makes no sense for them to switch to the F2P model, they may see a rise in players but the overall revenue would drop.

It isn't quite the same but that's sort of the situation HBO is in. Here's an article (Link) that covers it a bit more. HBO has certainly been looking into it but they're not ready to cut the cord just yet.

remember when you need official permission to record and watch shows on tv when your recorded onto good old VHS ???? yeeeehhh Shut up dude, no one wants to payout the ass for ONE channel.

In england you gotta pay 100+ a year for a "TV LICENSE" and then 50+ a month just for ONE CHANNEL !? really, so many shows but lets make customers pay out the ass for constant repeats of the same hand full of episodes.

Take over the pirate market. Make your own download service like no one would pay for it.

Game of Thrones only airs on cable television over here, on a station that basically doubles the price you pay for your cable subscription. Not many people have Cable here and even less have Showtime (the channel Game of Thrones airs on). There's no other way that I know of to watch Game of Thrones legally, except waiting an entire year for it to be released on DVD for an absurd price, or two years for them to finally syndicate it to other networks (the first season of Game of Thrones is just now airing on another channel).

If they had streaming services, VoDs, or perhaps, a more reasonable delay in syndication (maybe a month or so), piracy would go way down.

When will the nation that champions capitalism realise that the market has spoken? People are no longer prepared to put up with the bullshit that is 'you pay us a monthly subscription for fifty channels of crap so that you get to watch the one show you like, at a time designated by us'.

If they were to let you download on iTunes and other internet TV services as soon as it aired, the problem would largely go away. Instead the cable networks are dragging their knuckles to keep their dying business model alive.

The piracy rate of GoT is high because, maybe, it's a good show? Did they not think that people Pirated it to check it out and liked it so they kept doing it? I don't know. Piracy can harm TV, Movies or Video Games Profits, but I doubt it's really affecting GoT that much, since people still watch it when it airs, and you have a massive market for it Worldwide, not just in Australia and America. This is just one of those 'I need to fill my bitch quota for the month' things with this guy, since it's not too big of an issue.

Edit: I thought I'd add another point. Netflix and All those other, legal paid services that provide TV shows or Movies for a cost; We don't have them here. Maybe if they fucking worked on getting that here, the piracy rate would drop. I for one, am eager for Netflix here, since it sounds like an amazing service.

Ridiculous, targeting students who wouldn't have bought it otherwise. I don't watch the show but I'm willing to bet if torrents for it weren't available or no one did it then this show would be far less popular, be talked about much less and would therefore make far less money. These politicians don't know how the visual art and music industries work, and it's not surprising that the show's producers do and don't mind.

tkioz:
Seriously Mr. Ambassador, how about you have a talk to your companies that promote a culture of piracy here in Australia by charging us between two and four times the price for digital goods, huh? How about that.

"Stop pirating our digitial goods!"
"Stop selling digital goods with regional pricing!"

Reap what you sow, America.

"Charge them more, they can afford it." doesn't work very well when everything else in the country already reflects their higher valued currency and incomes. Isn't the mining bubble popping?

Sorry Bleich, for some reason many people need entertainment like it's a fix and must be smart asses about it as well. Though I can understand when you can't obtain a show as easy by any other means.

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