Dragon's Crown Designer Apologizes for Exaggerated Characters

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Jesus christ this thread is infuriating to read. It started out well, but derailed so quickly just like they always do.

Everyone just go watch Jim Sterling's latest video. He is 100% correct in everything he says ever.

Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

Also, he didn't apologise for the designs. He explained how he got to them and then apologised if YOU didn't see what he originally saw. He's not admitting that there was anything wrong with what he did whatsoever (though I'm not surprised by that), except, perhaps, that he should have tried harder to bring forth that "light-hearted fantasy tone" he talks about.

Either way, it's progress, I guess.

I've played vanillaware games before so I kinda know what i'm getting into...but even I kinda find some of these character designs hard to defend.

Eh, apologizing is pretty common in Japanese culture anyway from all I have been told who are experts on the subject. Or at least self proclaimed experts. I'd rather him think about the art direction and the possible meaning it has for others rather that be "sorry".

Also, this isn't an "Oh my God I'm so sorry I feel terrible" response. So I'm not to worried about his feelings.

Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien
Eh, a lot more Dungeons & Dragons than J.R.R. Tolkien. Also The Elder Scrolls: Arena did this sort of junk in their games. And it was pretty obnoxious there, too.

People keep defending art choices like this as "hey it isn't sexist because the guys are so muscular". Not the same, those dudes aren't there to look sexy to women at all. They're chiseled to look "manly" and capable. Having a figure like that would make you a hard as iron warrior. And the design is like that for players who want to feel like a hard as iron warrior. That Sorceress class, on the other hand, would have trouble even walking with breasts that large.

Also, for those saying people only complain about females with proportions like that, this is a problem, too. The fact that so many dudes in video games are these hard-boiled macho stereotypes with gigantic muscles is possibly as stupid as the fact that so many female video game characters are Ms. Fanservice with too large of breasts to even carry. Just for radically different reasons.

Radically different reasons for why people say "but but men are stereotypically formed for sex appeal too!" think. The problem with the male characters is how they force an unhealthy image of masculinity which is obsessed with hyper-empowered, dominance. The idea of this gigantic man with gigantic muscles and a huge beard falls right into the idea of many men thinking manliness is an achievement and the top of the human totem poll. And very much reinforces sexism just like these ridiculously buxom women. Just not in the way many defensive men would like to admit to.

I'm going to straddle the fence on this one.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the image/character as designed, but rather the context in which it is used. Was it a deliberate attempt to promote a sexist or homophobic agenda? Highly dubious. Is there subconscious or cultural sexism/homophobia occurring here? Possibly, but the guy eventually apologised when it was pointed out and hopefully learned to be more considerate of that perspective.

Such things are somewhat subjective and, even in the case of actual sexism and homophobia in any art or media, that doesn't always equate to condoning (else that would be propaganda). An artist's sexism may be reflected in their art, but you cannot assume they are sexist because their art suggests it.

Funny, in the world of Dragon's Crown, the Sorceress might be petite considering the elf's legs and the Amazon's...saggy muscles.

The early adolescent character design makes the whole game a bit of a turn off. His apology doesn't really justify it when you go ahead and stick a staff between her butt cheeks and press a skull to her boobs. It's not even like "this is my art style" it's "This is for SEX APPEAL!!!", the guys are exaggerated, too, but they aren't in particularly sexualised poses.

I'm not saying I like realism, either, it just..all seems a bit shallow. The enemy design is boss, though.

EstrogenicMuscle:
Eh, apologizing is pretty common in Japanese culture anyway from all I have been told who are experts on the subject. Or at least self proclaimed experts. I'd rather him think about the art direction and the possible meaning it has for others rather that be "sorry".

Also, this isn't an "Oh my God I'm so sorry I feel terrible" response. So I'm not to worried about his feelings.

Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien
Eh, a lot more Dungeons & Dragons than J.R.R. Tolkien. Also The Elder Scrolls: Arena did this sort of junk in their games. And it was pretty obnoxious there, too.

People keep defending art choices like this as "hey it isn't sexist because the guys are so muscular". Not the same, those dudes aren't there to look sexy to women at all. They're chiseled to look "manly" and capable. Having a figure like that would make you a hard as iron warrior. And the design is like that for players who want to feel like a hard as iron warrior. That Sorceress class, on the other hand, would have trouble even walking with breasts that large.

Also, for those saying people only complain about females with proportions like that, this is a problem, too. The fact that so many dudes in video games are these hard-boiled macho stereotypes with gigantic muscles is possibly as stupid as the fact that so many female video game characters are Ms. Fanservice with too large of breasts to even carry. Just for radically different reasons.

Radically different reasons for why people say "but but men are stereotypically formed for sex appeal too!" think. The problem with the male characters is how they force an unhealthy image of masculinity which is obsessed with hyper-empowered, dominance. The idea of this gigantic man with gigantic muscles and a huge beard falls right into the idea of many men thinking manliness is an achievement and the top of the human totem poll. And very much reinforces sexism just like these ridiculously buxom women. Just not in the way many defensive men would like to admit to.

arent you stretching that logic just a bit? the amazon looks alot like the dwarf and is not sexy conventionally.

He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

Atmos Duality:
He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

I second this.

It's his art, he can draw whatever he wants.

Whether you like it or not, that's your problem.

PS: Anyone find it a tad ironic (or perhaps hypocritical would be a better word ) that if a female game character has big boobs it's stereotyping, insulting, so on and so forth. However it's perfectly fine if a male game character has stupidly huge muscles - and no one defends more realistically proportion males designs when they are deemed "gay" by those insecure about their masculinity.

deadish:

Atmos Duality:
He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

I second this.

It's his art, he can draw whatever he wants.

Whether you like it or not, that's your problem.

PS: Anyone find it a tad ironic (or perhaps hypocritical would be a better word ) that if a female game character has big boobs it's stereotyping, insulting, so on and so forth. However it's perfectly fine if a male game character has stupidly huge muscles - and no one defends more realistically proportion males designs when they are deemed "gay" by those insecure about their masculinity.

It is ironic and very hypocritical. The argument used to justify the stance is due to the 'frequency' of females being depicted with unpractical revealing attire... which I find holds as much water as a sieve.

The only thing he had to apologize for was his initial rebuttal accusing his detractor of being homosexual, alluding that homosexuality is a negative thing. That being said I can understand his frustration when someone attacks you for a disproportionate art-style that draws ALL genders as disproportionate as somehow being sexist. Do all men look like the fighter and the dwarf? No. Then why do you think the artist believes that all women look like the sorceress and the amazon?

Seventh Actuality:
You can shout 'STYLIZED' as loud as you like but it does nothing to address the real issue, that the men are designed to look powerful while the women are designed to be wanked over. I'd probably give this game a pass on the basis that all those images (with the exception of the sorceress) look too grotesque to be titillating for anyone, but I've heard the same bullshit used to defend too much actual sexism and the designer guy is acting like a child besides so I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Maybe the men aren't stylized to look powerful they are stylized to look masculine just as the females are designed to look feminine.

Atmos Duality:
He doesn't need to apologize. It's his style.
I'm not fond of it, but I respect his right to create it.

I wish more people thought like you. This whole issue bothers me as a artist cause it implies that artists shouldn't be allowed to create things and shouldn't have the freedom to do things as they please. I get if you don't care for the style but don't sit there and act like they are bad or hurting people for doing it.

EstrogenicMuscle:

Radically different reasons for why people say "but but men are stereotypically formed for sex appeal too!" think. The problem with the male characters is how they force an unhealthy image of masculinity which is obsessed with hyper-empowered, dominance. The idea of this gigantic man with gigantic muscles and a huge beard falls right into the idea of many men thinking manliness is an achievement and the top of the human totem poll. And very much reinforces sexism just like these ridiculously buxom women. Just not in the way many defensive men would like to admit to.

You are right I mean we shouldn't allow people to show unhealthy images because they force people to be like that. We should get rid of all shooting games fighting games and anything that isn't hyper realism because it sets a false standard people feel forced to live by. If people play spiderman games it is really awful because it sets a unhealthy idea of human capabilities and it might force people to try and jump off building to their deaths. We can't allow artists to show this sorta nonsense ever again!

Darken12:
Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

aba1:

I wish more people thought like you. This whole issue bothers me as a artist cause it implies that artists shouldn't be allowed to create things and shouldn't have the freedom to do things as they please. I get if you don't care for the style but don't sit there and act like they are bad or hurting people for doing it.

Well, since "frequency" the primary complaint, there are two ways to address the problem.
(Where Frequency is defined as a proportion of [Desired : Undesired])

1) Increase amount of non-exploitative female characters in design. (any design; primarily visually, since video gaming is primarily visual, but in behavior as well)

Problems: The largest producers in the market are obsessed with marketability, which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their metrics and focus testing says gaming is a sausage-fest, so they will design for a sausage fest.
We need talent who can work outside of those constraints and take risks.

Increasing exploitative male character designs probably won't work so well given the current market conditions; it's be an interesting gambit given the current socio-political climate in the West.

2) Decrease amount of exploitative female design.
Problems: This route leads into Political Correctness: "You can't [say/draw/do] that! It might offend someone!"
We really don't need gaming diving any deeper into Hayes-Code territory.

*) Moving away from exploitation in general would reduce that "fear" of creating non-exploitative characters (especially female), and increase incentive to broaden the subject matter. But pitching this to a profit-driven entertainment industry is difficult at best (nearly impossible in all other media; mainstream music and film thrives on exploitation).

JazzJack2:

Darken12:
Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

The fact that it was a joke was homophobic. "You don't like big tits? You must be gay! Here, have some burly, older, bearded, naked men! HAR HAR HAR! IT'S HILARIOUS! HAR HAR HAR HAR!"

I fail to see what's so funny about a bunch of men being found sexually attractive by other men. I, for one, cannot think of a non-homophobic source of humour for that joke.

Darken12:

JazzJack2:

Darken12:
Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

The fact that it was a joke was homophobic. "You don't like big tits? You must be gay! Here, have some burly, older, bearded, naked men! HAR HAR HAR! IT'S HILARIOUS! HAR HAR HAR HAR!"

I fail to see what's so funny about a bunch of men being found sexually attractive by other men. I, for one, cannot think of a non-homophobic source of humour for that joke.

I am gay and I didn't find his joke offensive at all, using sexuality as a feature for a joke isn't inherently offensive.

JazzJack2:
I am gay and I didn't find his joke offensive at all, using sexuality as a feature for a joke isn't inherently offensive.

Well, I'm gay(ish) too and I did find it inherently offensive. Intention matters a great deal. The dude's intention wasn't to gently poke fun at the gay community in a lighthearted, amicable way. His intent was to use the trite-old "What are you, GAY?" as a rhetoric to silence criticism and mock his critics into silence.

Darken12:
His intent was to use the trite-old "What are you, GAY?" as a rhetoric to silence criticism and mock his critics into silence.

Meh I felt he was simply telling people to fuck off in less rude, lightly humorous manner, but still I don't see homophobia with either interpretation.

I can see where he's going with saying that it harkens back to the old D&D days; the Amazon looks like something that was spray painted on the side of an old 80's panel van. The Sorceress though looks like a teen, boy masturbatory fantasy. If the artist wanted to go for exaggerated proportions then fine, but having her tits virtually spilling out just pushes it to the realm of tacky. It's a pity because the actual game looks like an artistic, modern reboot of the old Capcom D&D side scrollers which I loved.

JazzJack2:
Meh I felt he was simply telling people to fuck off in less rude, lightly humorous manner, but still I don't see homophobia with either interpretation.

The homophobia comes from the fact that "what are you, gay?" is somehow an appropriate way of saying "fuck off". If he didn't consider gayness to be an inherently bad, shameful or hilarious thing, that reply would have made no sense. The only way the joke works is if there's something wrong with a dude liking dudes.

Darken12:

JazzJack2:

Darken12:
Well, I'm glad he apologised for the disgusting homophobic joke, at least.

There wasn't anything homophobic about his joke

The fact that it was a joke was homophobic. "You don't like big tits? You must be gay! Here, have some burly, older, bearded, naked men! HAR HAR HAR! IT'S HILARIOUS! HAR HAR HAR HAR!"

I fail to see what's so funny about a bunch of men being found sexually attractive by other men. I, for one, cannot think of a non-homophobic source of humour for that joke.

I dunno man I saw it as more of a "If you aren't into women then men are most likely your game so here look at men instead" which isn't really offensive I mean there are only 2 genders so odds are if you aren't into women you are likely into men, the only other option is that you are a-sexual.

Andy Chalk:
Dragon's Crown Designer Apologizes for Exaggerated Characters

Dragon's Crown designer George Kamitani says he's sorry if he made anyone uncomfortable with his bizarrely-proportioned character art.

George Kamitani took some heat earlier this month when Kotaku pointed out the rather strange appearance of the Sorceress character in Dragon's Crown, who I guess you could say wasn't exactly built to standard specifications. The article stated, facetiously of course, that the character had been "designed by a 14-year-old boy," which led Kamitani, president of Japanese developer Vanillaware, to post what some considered a homophobic response on Facebook.

It was an ugly affair all around, but now Kamitani has dialed things back with a message explaining some of the motivations for the designs and apologizing to those who were offended. "I believe that the basic fantasy motifs seen in Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien have a style that is very attractive, and I chose to use some orthodox ones in my basic designs. However, if I left those designs as is, they won't stand out amongst the many fantasy designs already in the video game/comic/movie/etc. space. Because of that, I decided to exaggerate all of my character designs in a cartoonish fashion," he wrote.

"I exaggerated the silhouettes of all the masculine features in the male characters, the feminine features in female characters, and the monster-like features in the monsters from many different angles until each had a unique feel to them," he continued. "I apologize to those who were made uncomfortable by the art's appearance, and did not see the same light-hearted fantasy in my designs."

He also apologized for the image of the three "sweaty dwarves" he posted on Facebook in response to Kotaku's criticism, which he said was meant to be "a little joke with a comment. I used an automated translator to try and make a lighthearted joke in English, but clearly that wasn't the case. I was very surprised to see the crazy aftermath."

Fantasy art is often heavily exaggerated but even by that standard, this is a weird looking bunch. The Wizard and the Elf aren't too bad but the Fighter looks like a Rob Liefield character and I don't even know what to say about the Amazon and the Sorceress. But is it worth an apology? And if so, is Kamitani's, with its unmissable "I'm sorry you didn't get it" deflection, sufficient?

Dragon's Crown comes out on August 6 for the PlayStation 3 and PS Vita

Source: Kotaku

Permalink

There's no controversy here. There's no deflection. For chrissake don't link Kotaku and actually do some journalistic work. Schreier is nothing but a sham for a journalist who's hungry for page views more than actually doing his job, so he'll say just about anything to anyone if it means he can justify his joke of a job. The sooner you ignore Kotaku as a whole, the sooner you can at least pretend you have some level of journalistic integrity. God forbid you commit to actually having to do some research- that thing you had to do to get that degree you hopefully have- and trying to push the conversation beyond some banal conversation of whether or not it's "sexist."

Dragon's Crown implicitly isn't and to try and draw a line in the sand here and now is beyond hipocritical. Has anyone even played Vanillaware games? Probably not, but nothing about the females in Dragons Crown is exactly new. Large breasts are hardly an indication of sexism, let alone the variable amounts of clothes the characters wear. The game is stylized and actually puts a fair bit more work into the design and references than most people will ever realize. That picture of the sorceress holding a skeleton to her breasts is probably never going to be anything but that one image that is fairly creepy to the common viewer.

The three sweaty dwarves are only ever going to be the homosexual joke despite it being a jab at Japanese producers who ever only wanted the female characters wearing as little as possible. It pre-dated Schreier's whine. When actually confronted with actual facts, perish the thought, Schreier back pedals and tries to pass off the male characters as power fantasies. As though men and boys fantasize about looking like an absurd body builder who frankly isn't even that attractive to look at. It's a fat, old dwarf. None of the characters in the game would work in real life. Back problems, leg problems, you name it, they'd have it. Exaggeration is the point here.

This is just one man playing out the all-to-common victim narrative that he uses to justify something he doesn't like seeing. The sooner people start realizing that fictional portrayals of fictional characters has absolutely zero impact on you as a person and any negative body image it gives you is your own problem, the sooner we can actually talk about something that matters. Don't get swept up in it.

aba1:
I dunno man I saw it as more of a "If you aren't into women then men are most likely your game so here look at men instead" which isn't really offensive I mean there are only 2 genders so odds are if you aren't into women you are likely into men, the only other option is that you are a-sexual.

Nobody is that naive. Nobody goes "oh, you are criticising a drawing I made? That's okay, have another. Is this better?" and means that sincerely.

It was a mean-spirited joke meant to shame the critic into apologising or going quiet (or for the artist to garner a backlash against the critic among his fanbase). The implied gayness was used as a petty, immature attack. It perfectly reflects the schoolyard boy's club state of most of the gaming industry, where the assumption is that everyone is straight, male and insecure, so people like the artist need only imply gayness to get dissenters back in line.

It's also ridiculous, since you can be a perfectly straight man who is passionately into women and still criticise the depiction of the sorceress and the amazon in the game. Being gay has literally nothing to do with the legit criticism levied at the game, and to consider "GAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!" as an appropriate retort to a thought-out critique is both juvenile and homophobic.

Ugh, how disgusting...this artist doesn't know proper proportions and his stylistic choice was obviously made because he has the mind of a pre-pubescent boy:

Here's another disgusting slob cranking out his fapping material:

Can you believe they used to make figurines of this filth:

Did this guy ever take an art class, THAT'S NOT HOW ANATOMY WORKS JACKHOLE:

By the gods, what terrible terrible art xD I've seen the Sorcerer before and I could barely contain my laughter, but the rest is possibly even worse! People with logs for extremities and very tiny heads.. I mean, just look at the first one alone, the axe wielding amazon lady. WHO THE FUCK LOOKS LIKE THAT.

I have to be honest, all I am seeing from this is a bunch of complacent buggers bitching about something that doesn't need to be complained about. So what if characters are Exaggerated look in every game that's recently come out there are big exaggerations in them, loads of games have exaggerated characters in them, from BOTH sexes.

I can't really recall too many games that really show overly beefy cake other than God of War and Conan the Barbarian of which both protagonists pretty much run around in a loin cloth, I could add Gears of War but I haven't played the series and I doubt any of the protagonists have been seen out of their armour. We all know that females are overly exagerrated in games, I could point to Scarlet Blade where the only gender in that game you can play is FEMALE in which every character pretty much only ever runs around in a damn swimsuit. Lara Croft since her inception has been portrayed as a sex symbol, though they have tried to change that in their latest game. In fact if you look at many MMO's you'll find the females always tend to be portrayed sexily with skimpy outfits and armour.

This won't stop, people will keep exaggerating characters for fantasy, men will still be portrayed as mountains of muscle, girls will still be in their sexy outfits and skimpy armour. That's the god damned gaming industry. And that's why its called fantasy. All I can say is go blow your hot air elsewhere, every games art style is different and this guy TRIED something else. I do agree that some designs look peculiar in my eyes such as the barbarian, and I won't lie due to the fact I'm a guy I like the idea of a nice pair of tits on a girl but I don't play a game JUST because it has sexy girls in it otherwise I'd actually be playing Scarlet Blade (The games mechanics and gameplay just don't keep me entertained.) I play a game for good gameplay, a good storyline is a bonus, and good looking girls another plus. But at the same time the male characters look great too, you play a fantasy game to be something else, if that means I can be a god damned great hulk in armour with a sword so big it makes the ladies swoon at its very presence of of a single swing doth send my foe to the fiery pits of hell to burn...

And did you ever think that maybe there might be some girls that actually very enjoy the idea of playing a big burly man with a huge sword? Or a glorified sex symbol with a chest you can trampoline off? It depends on your tastes.

TL;DR: Stop bitching about sexism in games. Its been done over and over tenfold and I'm fucking sick of it. Sexism works both ways.

Salad Is Murder:

[/sn

I really don't agree with some of the users here like yourself Salad of using art to "frame" your argument, if your going to use a comparison from sexualisation in games versus art then it would probably work if in "The Unfinished Swan" the main characters mother had implants.

Dark Magician Girl from Yu Gi Oh would be a good comparison to this artists character, but it doesn't get that whole sarcasm point across these users are going for.

To conclude!, you can't compare this guys work versus picasso. Its like putting Emimen against Johan Bach, because its ridiculous[1].

[1] yes i understand that is kinda the point

Headdrivehardscrew:
I actually like the design and am absolutely prepared to throw money at this game.

It's hilarious to see the Sorceress' bust flop about. If only males knew how absolutely unpleasant this would be... but they don't, and they don't have to, and I like it like that.

It also wouldn't be much fun to have thighs the size of two Rottweiler dogs strapped to your loins.

It's not real. I've got enough real. I want this game, just the way the artist designed it.

I don't like the more exagerated designs that much, so i'll probably stay with the elf or male wizard.

That said it was pretty obvious that he comically exagerated everything. I couldn't really understand the whole shitstorm around it.

Hm, fair enough, if he's exaggerating all the characters in equal measure, w/e.

The Facebook dwarves thing was still really dumb.

DigitalSushi:

To conclude!, you can't compare this guys work versus picasso. Its like putting Emimen against Johan Bach, because its ridiculous

And why can't he compare them? because you believe one to be of higher quality than the other? Artistic freedom is inherent to all art not just 'good art'.

JazzJack2:

DigitalSushi:

To conclude!, you can't compare this guys work versus picasso. Its like putting Emimen against Johan Bach, because its ridiculous

And why can't he compare them? because you believe one to be of higher quality than the other? Artistic freedom is inherent to all art not just 'good art'.

So which is the "good art"?, Am I a massive fan of Yu Gi Oh, and believe the Dark Magician Girl to be the epitome of beauty of women in a sexualised way?

I didn't say he couldn't compare them, I said I didn't agree with how this is being compared to picasso by some users on this site and the net in general. I'd like to reiterate that I didn't say "HE ISN'T ALLOWED TO COMPARE IT", I just said I don't agree with them comparing Vanillawares huge boobed sorceress to Picasso... I never said one was high art and one wasn't.

You are right JazzJack2, Artistic freedom of speech shall we call it? (a friend of mine says "art wants to be free"), we should let this creator of massive tits be judged on his own merits, not on the merit of others or the size of tits he drew once. Personally... I am pro breasts, breast cancer can GTFO.

HAHHAHA, No wait, before you go, I did compare them!, sorry about that
:D

DigitalSushi:

Salad Is Murder:
I also snip, my post was a lot of stuff.

I really don't agree with some of the users here like yourself Salad of using art to "frame" your argument, if your going to use a comparison from sexualisation in games versus art then it would probably work if in "The Unfinished Swan" the main characters mother had implants.

Dark Magician Girl from Yu Gi Oh would be a good comparison to this artists character, but it doesn't get that whole sarcasm point across these users are going for.

To conclude!, you can't compare this guys work versus picasso. Its like putting Emimen against Johan Bach, because its ridiculous[1].

I'm not going to deny that I was using hyperbole to make my point, but I'm also not going to deny that I was in the right to do so.

Look, you gotta' let art be art, but never forget: the whole purpose of art is expression and communication, and how that manifests in the person viewing/experiencing it; reflected in the myriad of experiences a lifetime can build up, you see not just what the artist has made, but pieces of yourself in it.

Let's look at the reaction the sorceress artwork is causing, are people afraid to say they like it because they've been conditioned to see those kind of works as exploitative and sexist? Do they actually believe that the illustration itself is of poor quality and design? Do they just not like for reasons they may or may not be able to communicate? Sure, it's possible, but don't you see? That's us! That's the viewer making suppositions and interpretations about the art and the artist.

It's okay to like pictures of sexy girls in dresses, if I had a rack half that good I would wear that dress everywhere. It's okay to not think Kratos is hunky...it's cool if you think he is.

All of this internet garbage about false equivalences and sexism and fake geek/nerd/gaming girls whatever is toxic. We're sticking our heads in the sand and gnashing our teeth about all these perceived slights but we're not doing the things we really need to do to fix it:

Stop being shitty to each other.

But we'd all have to be a lot more honest with ourselves to get to that point, and I don't think I'm ready for that yet either.

And yes, you can compare Bach to Eminem. A lot of artists are not well appreciated in their time, you know.

[1] yes i understand that is kinda the point

Salad Is Murder:

I'm not going to deny that I was using hyperbole to make my point, but I'm also not going to deny that I was in the right to do so.

Absolutely.

Salad Is Murder:

Look, you gotta' let art be art, but never forget: the whole purpose of art is expression and communication, and how that manifests in the person viewing/experiencing it; reflected in the myriad of experiences a lifetime can build up, you see not just what the artist has made, but pieces of yourself in it.

I'll admit I don't understand what you mean here.

Salad Is Murder:

Let's look at the reaction the sorceress artwork is causing, are people afraid to say they like it because they've been conditioned to see those kind of works as exploitative and sexist? Do they actually believe that the illustration itself is of poor quality and design? Do they just not like for reasons they may or may not be able to communicate? Sure, it's possible, but don't you see? That's us! That's the viewer making suppositions and interpretations about the art and the artist.

ha you fucking magnificient person you!

Personally I never heard of this game but thanks to this shitstorm I think it looks gorgeous (I mean really old school gorgeous with HD graphics gorgeous), its not of poor quality or design, it merely has one character with ENERMOUS BOOBIES!

I think I understand your point about us and art and how we project ourselves onto it but I don't agree with it though.

Salad Is Murder:

It's okay to like pictures of sexy girls in dresses, if I had a rack half that good I would wear that dress everywhere. It's okay to not think Kratos is hunky...it's cool if you think he is.

babe, if you had a rack like that, you go for it, but you would never have a rack like that... because that rack ain't real

I think Kratos is a lovely caracature of anger, Marcus Fenix is a peice of shitcunt design created by a 14 year old with daddy issues... I never bitched about that, I just let people make that game and let others play that game.

Salad Is Murder:

Stop being shitty to each other.

I hope you don't feel I've been shitty to you

Salad Is Murder:

But we'd all have to be a lot more honest with ourselves to get to that point, and I don't think I'm ready for that yet either.

And yes, you can compare Bach to Eminem. A lot of artists are not well appreciated in their time, you know.

Oh of course you can compare Bach to Emimen... you ain't gonna get far doing it though are you?

Having the possibility of comparing something like Bach to Emimen is your God giving right, being able to sway a person's opinion on the matter however, its their god giving right to not be idiots.

Bach versus Emimen?
Marcus Fenix versus Leonidas?

Yeah go for it, compare.

He should have never said anything. Poor guy.

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