Xbox One Will Not Have Backwards Compatibility Via Cloud Streaming

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Mr Ink 5000:

josemlopes:

Mr Ink 5000:
the sites I looked at said the emulators were ready for download. Seems pretty reasonable that 8 year old consoles can be emulated.

The process of emulating a console isnt just power, thats why its called emulation, the PC has to simulate the exact same conditions of the console on top of itself and when the console uses a different structure then you can see why it isnt as basic.

There are a lot of scam emulators, if you go to an actual emulation forum you will see that there isnt actually any PS3/Xbox 360 emulator out there that can play games, there isnt even a properly functional emulator for the original Xbox due to lack of proper information about the system.

do you have any links to legitimate emulator forums? I'm quite curious to look into this.

Emuparadise is a very cool site

Their main site:
http://www.emuparadise.me/
Here are their forums:
http://www.epforums.org/forum.php

josemlopes:

Mr Ink 5000:

josemlopes:

The process of emulating a console isnt just power, thats why its called emulation, the PC has to simulate the exact same conditions of the console on top of itself and when the console uses a different structure then you can see why it isnt as basic.

There are a lot of scam emulators, if you go to an actual emulation forum you will see that there isnt actually any PS3/Xbox 360 emulator out there that can play games, there isnt even a properly functional emulator for the original Xbox due to lack of proper information about the system.

do you have any links to legitimate emulator forums? I'm quite curious to look into this.

Emuparadise is a very cool site

Their main site:
http://www.emuparadise.me/
Here are their forums:
http://www.epforums.org/forum.php

thanks I'l have a good look at that tonight. Always fun to broaden knowledge

On the whole power debate: To this day you need high-end hardware to ACCURATELY emulate an SNES. Why does that matter? This article explains it.

So, current gen emulators will MAYBE play a few select games, because they're not console emulators, but "the parts of a console to play these 4 games" emulators.

sadly in a decade or two when almost all the current gen consoles are dead and landfill i can see a good chunk of gaming history simply unplayable. even though i dont have an interest in them the archivist in me hate to see history vanish as im watching

Strazdas:

canadamus_prime:
Is it my imagination or have we had more news about what next gen consoles won't do than we have about what they will do?

Yep. I did point out couple times already that if Microsoft continues to announce features they are taking out at the same rate till launch the console will end up being an expensive papperweight.

After that, Sony started such announcements as well....

Precisely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the next generation supposed to build upon what the previous one could do, as opposed to doing less than the previous one?

canadamus_prime:

Strazdas:

canadamus_prime:
Is it my imagination or have we had more news about what next gen consoles won't do than we have about what they will do?

Yep. I did point out couple times already that if Microsoft continues to announce features they are taking out at the same rate till launch the console will end up being an expensive papperweight.

After that, Sony started such announcements as well....

Precisely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the next generation supposed to build upon what the previous one could do, as opposed to doing less than the previous one?

It would, but it seems that in effort to keep expenses down they decided not to factor in any actual logic when designing these things.

I'm waiting for when they, with regret, announce that the Xbox One won't be able to play games at all, but instead you just pay $500 for it to spy and advertise to you.
People may not see this a big deal, and just go DUHHHH SONY FANBOYS but given how the PS4 is planned to be doing this sort of stuff, and that the Xbox was banking on the power of the cloud to make up for it's shortcomings, which is now less than we thought, things aren't looking good.

Strazdas:

canadamus_prime:

Strazdas:

Yep. I did point out couple times already that if Microsoft continues to announce features they are taking out at the same rate till launch the console will end up being an expensive papperweight.

After that, Sony started such announcements as well....

Precisely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the next generation supposed to build upon what the previous one could do, as opposed to doing less than the previous one?

It would, but it seems that in effort to keep expenses down they decided not to factor in any actual logic when designing these things.

Along with common sense, reason, and all concept of reality presumably.

canadamus_prime:

Strazdas:

canadamus_prime:

Precisely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the next generation supposed to build upon what the previous one could do, as opposed to doing less than the previous one?

It would, but it seems that in effort to keep expenses down they decided not to factor in any actual logic when designing these things.

Along with common sense, reason, and all concept of reality presumably.

That will be confirmed after the next public auditing. Or maybe not as they tend to stick unrelated things under one line in thier accounting.

Wow it seems every day micro$oft rolls out another stripped feature, for "reasons", all the more reason to run for the competition

tdylan:

TiberiusEsuriens:
The Azure cloud technically can do it, but what they're saying is that introducing this service would lead to so much backlash from people that want/try to use it, but can't because of their poor internet connections. When they can't connect to the cloud because of their crappy connection who do you think they'll blame? It won't be their ISP, it'll be Microsoft that takes the fall, even if it isn't their fault. Why? Because people are stupid.

So your argument is:

"MS is introducing innovations that the world is simply not ready for. It's not MS' fault the rest of the world doesn't have the resources and the infrastructure in place to keep up?"

It really isn't MS's fault that the US has such awful Internet infrastructure. Sony is probably only still going forward with Gaikai because Japan actually has decent infrastructure (and it would be a lot of wasted money if they didn't).

Denamic:
Emulation is out the window, because not even top-tier gaming PCs come close to having the power to emulate the PS3 and 360 hardware yet.

No one is going to create an emulation of ps3 and 360 games when the PC versions are often better than the console variants.

Then why don't they make that goddamn thing backwards compatible?
They don't have the excuse sony has who fucked themselves with their cell architecture.
Yeah of course it is "really cool" to allow people to buy the game again and backwards compatibility is "really backwards", how about go fuck yourself.

Morons wasting the one (1) thing they have over the ps3, access to the library of the previous generation.

Suddenly a Steam Machine looks even more appealing.

Whoracle:
On the whole power debate: To this day you need high-end hardware to ACCURATELY emulate an SNES. Why does that matter? This article explains it.

So, current gen emulators will MAYBE play a few select games, because they're not console emulators, but "the parts of a console to play these 4 games" emulators.

You know, I was all set to write a snarky reply about how we've had accurate SNES emulation for at least 15 years. Then I actually bothered to read the article.

It was interesting. I'm still not sure why the "fully accurate emulation" the article describes requires such resources (the article didn't explain that part very well, IMHO), but even if you accept that the article is correct and fully accurate emulation requires almost a thousand times the speed of the original processor -- and I see no reason to doubt the interviewee, since he no doubt knows way more than I do -- that doesn't mean that modern emulation would require anywhere near the same thousandfold increase in processing power.

After all, most of the reason for requiring the extra power is to handle corner cases (like a game that modified the display registers while the screen was still being drawn) and for handling the special chips that came with some games (the FX chip being probably the most famous example). Neither of these are really problems on modern consoles, to my knowledge. The need to squeeze every last iota of power and space out of severely restricted hardware is (more or less) a thing of the past, and I know for certain that no disk-based games came with extra processors attached.

Basic 95%-99% accuracy for the SNES was achieved with something like 10-100 times the original processing power, and the SNES was proportionally much more difficult to emulate than modern systems. While we're nowhere near the high end of that range even for high-end PCs, the low end seems much more attainable. I'm not saying we'll have functional PS3 and 360 emulators tomorrow, but that day may not be as far off as you think. I understand the Dolphin emulator has had at least moderate success with Gamecube and even some Wii games, and the article cited is already two years old. I give it another decade or so at the outside.

The_Great_Galendo:

Whoracle:
On the whole power debate: To this day you need high-end hardware to ACCURATELY emulate an SNES. Why does that matter? This article explains it.

So, current gen emulators will MAYBE play a few select games, because they're not console emulators, but "the parts of a console to play these 4 games" emulators.

You know, I was all set to write a snarky reply about how we've had accurate SNES emulation for at least 15 years. Then I actually bothered to read the article.

It was interesting. I'm still not sure why the "fully accurate emulation" the article describes requires such resources (the article didn't explain that part very well, IMHO), but even if you accept that the article is correct and fully accurate emulation requires almost a thousand times the speed of the original processor -- and I see no reason to doubt the interviewee, since he no doubt knows way more than I do -- that doesn't mean that modern emulation would require anywhere near the same thousandfold increase in processing power.

After all, most of the reason for requiring the extra power is to handle corner cases (like a game that modified the display registers while the screen was still being drawn) and for handling the special chips that came with some games (the FX chip being probably the most famous example). Neither of these are really problems on modern consoles, to my knowledge. The need to squeeze every last iota of power and space out of severely restricted hardware is (more or less) a thing of the past, and I know for certain that no disk-based games came with extra processors attached.

Basic 95%-99% accuracy for the SNES was achieved with something like 10-100 times the original processing power, and the SNES was proportionally much more difficult to emulate than modern systems. While we're nowhere near the high end of that range even for high-end PCs, the low end seems much more attainable. I'm not saying we'll have functional PS3 and 360 emulators tomorrow, but that day may not be as far off as you think. I understand the Dolphin emulator has had at least moderate success with Gamecube and even some Wii games, and the article cited is already two years old. I give it another decade or so at the outside.

In the case of the SNES, it's not about technology. We have a pretty good understanding of the SNES hardware by now, so creating an emulator is relatively easy[1]. In terms of making the emulation any faster, that's not really going to happen. Sure, someone might come up with a new method for something to increase performance by a few percent in that area, but nothing that'll reduce hardware requirements to any significant degree. More accuracy will always demand huge amount of power. And you'll never have sufficiently accurate emulation with anything less than at least 10 times the CPU frequency of the architecture you're emulating.

Where you'll see the most improvement right now is probably with PCSX2 and Dolphin, as they've only recently managed to produce solid emulation without being overly reliant on game specific hacks.

[1] Actually really fucking hard relative to non-emulation programming.

So the summary is that they don't feel confident in the cloud preforming well in streaming. I wonder if Sony's program will face similar hardships. Frankly I've come to grips with the lack of backwards compatibility. Disappointed, yes, but I can understand the burden of making the machine play double duty when the systems are unique upon themselves. I brought a PS3 (fat) to before it was discontinued so I could play my PS2/1 games, but I rarely touch them. Eventually the older games are forgotten. Still it's nice to know I can pop in Odin Sphere or Ratchet and Clank if I so desire. But both Sony and MS see the potential sales; people repurchasing games they already own on the new system. Still for those new to it all they might want to pick up the older games without buying yet another system. None the less it we shall find out how Xbox One and PS4 turn out soon enough. Amazing to see the month almost over so quickly.

Did a major company just openly acknowledge that consumer internet on the whole is not as good as their internet they design these things on? And then take that information and use it, rather than screwing over like 80% of the world by going ahead with it anyway?

Holy crap, I might die of shock.

The_Great_Galendo:
[snippage]

Yes, speed-optimized emulation might be enough for hobbyists and the like. I was just pointing out that we're not going to see full-on emulation of current-gen consoles for a while. But, and IIRC that was the reason I brought it up, if you wan tto emulate (for example) the 360 on the Xbone, you can't just deliver 95%. It's a commercial product you're releasing. You'll have to deliver 100% or face the shitstorm. Remember the backwards compat of the 360 to the XBOX? How it had like 80 titles or so? That's exactly because of that reasoning.* And the SNES has had almost 2 decades of emulation before we hit the 95% we're sitting at currently. Back in the day you had about 50% compatibility, and $DEITY_OR_PHILOSOPHY help you if you wanted to play something outside the absolute mainstream.

*And that's the reason why the original PS3, in spite of it's ridonculous computing power, had a whole friggin' PS2 hardware-built into it instead of emulating it's predecessor...

Whoracle:
On the whole power debate: To this day you need high-end hardware to ACCURATELY emulate an SNES. Why does that matter? This article explains it.

So, current gen emulators will MAYBE play a few select games, because they're not console emulators, but "the parts of a console to play these 4 games" emulators.

Hmmm, if I'm reading that article correctly, he wants the emulated games to run exactly the same way the snes does. He doesn't seem to mention anything about the intended gameplay vs the actual gameplay people got as a result of the systems limitations.

As an example, the Armored Armadillo stage in Meganman X has a minecart riding section that creates some pretty bad lag. This made the timing of the jump required to get to a particular ledge that held a secret very hard. I wonder if the guy really wants to recreate that unintended difficulty.

-Dragmire-:
Hmmm, if I'm reading that article correctly, he wants the emulated games to run exactly the same way the snes does. He doesn't seem to mention anything about the intended gameplay vs the actual gameplay people got as a result of the systems limitations.

As an example, the Armored Armadillo stage in Meganman X has a minecart riding section that creates some pretty bad lag. This made the timing of the jump required to get to a particular ledge that held a secret very hard. I wonder if the guy really wants to recreate that unintended difficulty.

From what I gather yes, that's what he intends. He wants emulation to be as exact as possible, to preserve the games, warts and all. That's not comparable with todays "mainstream" emulators. I just wanted to point out that even with our current tech we're not able to accurately emulate the 360/PS3. a 50%-emulation for the most wanted games might be possible, but we have all seen how that turned out for the 360/XBOX-compatibility.

The "We've got ridiculously powerful hardware now, we can emulate it"-argument is just a pet peeve of mine. Yes, we have it, but no, accurate emulation is HUNGRY. There's gonna be tradeoffs, and big ones, and the state of SNES/Megadrive/PSone emulation we have today was made possible by a whole bunch of people helping for no monetary benefit to themselves (mostly), something which a profit-oriented enterprise can't (and shouldn't, if it wants to stay profitable) attempt.

The reason this is being dropped isn't because of the "cloud" part of cloud streaming, it's the "streaming" part. Streaming is extremely demanding on a network's resources. If you don't have enough bandwidth, it doesn't matter how good it's coming from the cloud, it's going to play like arse on your end.

A list of things a console needs to do in order for me to consider buying it:

1) Have full Backwards Compatibility

That is all. Keep trying, Microsoft. Don't come back till you've sorted your crap out.

"And he pulled a rabbit out of the hat, it was dead - and no one was surprised"
Now was ANYONE surprised?

Microsoft have been just digging their own grave, now they are even filling it also! Microsoft STOP FUCKING UP! You sadly still are an important pillar in game industry and we can't rebuild the whole construct in few years if you decide to bury yourself in your own sick! STOP FUCKING UP!

But seriously... Microsoft has admitted 2 faults in their gaming systems in short period. First the GFWLM shutdown notice, then admitting the system is horrible and a failure (And that Steam was superior and did things right), now this?

What happening to you microsoft? You found a shard of humanity in your body and became slightly humble? Or you just depressed and admitting things as punishment for yourself?

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