Report: Mass Effect Put on Indefinite Hold

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Orga777:

pookie101:
im not surprised its put on hold when EA were expecting sales of 6-9 M units basically the same if not more sales than ME3.. there is no way it was going to achieve that level

Really? These sales expectations of big AAA companies are getting more and more ridiculous...

i know right..

ME3 the end of a beloved trilogy sold 6M units and they were expecting the start of this new one to make that or more..

EA's sales expectations for MEA were 3 million on launch, 6 million lifetime sales. "Lifetime" I assume meaning a couple of years, and not the 5 years it took ME3 to reach that number.

By the by, that's not all that unreasonable. It's inline with the growth shown between previous entries. Of course that doesn't account for ME3 being shit and burning people, plus MEA looking more garbage the closer it got to release.

MC1980:
By the by, that's not all that unreasonable. It's inline with the growth shown between previous entries. Of course that doesn't account for ME3 being shit and burning people, plus MEA looking more garbage the closer it got to release.

Yeah it's the ME3 aftermath that's the biggest problem IMO - there's just now way they shouldn't have revised expectations for the next game downwards after the *ahem* passionate and prolonged response ME3 got. Plus ME3 had the benefit of being marketed as the ending to an existing trilogy, so they could be pretty certain people who'd bought the previous games were going to want to get the final one.

They had to know they burned a pretty big portion of the marketplace with ME3, and what marketing I saw for MEA didn't really do anything to reach out to those people and convince them to come back.

TT Kairen:

I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

I'm all in for more diversity in gaming, but I don't agree on it if it as hamfisted as this.

TT Kairen:

I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

It's highly unlikely that every species on Thessia reproduced like the Asari, so it is very likely that as a species the Asari would have a concept of male and female.

However them using male terms to refer to themselves isn't a new thing. Matriarch Aethyta refers to herself as Liara's father and rebukes Shepard who explains that on Earth they would both be referred to as the Mother.

So I don't see how it is a huge problem that some Asari prefer to be considered the 'males' of their society.

votemarvel:

TT Kairen:

I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

It's highly unlikely that every species on Thessia reproduced like the Asari, so it is very likely that as a species the Asari would have a concept of male and female.

However them using male terms to refer to themselves isn't a new thing. Matriarch Aethyta refers to herself as Liara's father and rebukes Shepard who explains that on Earth they would both be referred to as the Mother.

So I don't see how it is a huge problem that some Asari prefer to be considered the 'males' of their society.

Primarily because they're actually lacking in male terms. Remember Patriarch on Omega? Aria gave him that name as an insult because it's a completely meaningless word to Asari. In all honesty, the use of mother and father with Asari couples are most likely just the closest equivalent the translators provide. Heck, Liara's father was basically using that term to get the point across quickly.

TT Kairen:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

If that happened I completely missed it... and I've been playing about 150 hours at this point. Do you remember where it was?

I remember the super-unsubtle transsexual NPC that got patched out for whatever reason, but not this.

AD-Stu:

TT Kairen:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

If that happened I completely missed it... and I've been playing about 150 hours at this point. Do you remember where it was?

I remember the super-unsubtle transsexual NPC that got patched out for whatever reason, but not this.

It's an ambient conversation between the asari and the angaran ambassador in the Cultural Exchange Center on the Nexus, so it's easy to miss, especially if you're there for a certain mission with the VI right next to them.

votemarvel:

TT Kairen:

I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

It's highly unlikely that every species on Thessia reproduced like the Asari, so it is very likely that as a species the Asari would have a concept of male and female.

However them using male terms to refer to themselves isn't a new thing. Matriarch Aethyta refers to herself as Liara's father and rebukes Shepard who explains that on Earth they would both be referred to as the Mother.

So I don't see how it is a huge problem that some Asari prefer to be considered the 'males' of their society.

In addition to Metalix Nightmare's reply above, while they would have a concept of male and female (possibly, the fauna of Thessia has not been explored), gender dysphoria would be an impossibility for them. Asari have been described as 'all-female' by the codex, and mono-gendered by Liara, our primary source of asari information. Since they are all biologically female, they cannot disassociate with their sex/gender because there is no alternative that they could have been born as.

Poetic Nova:

TT Kairen:

I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.

I'm all in for more diversity in gaming, but I don't agree on it if it as hamfisted as this.

I don't see how a brief and easy-to-miss conversation between two npc's is "hamfisted". A trans character blurting their backstory--that's a bit hamfisted. But even Bioware acknowledged that one was a little goofy and insensitive.

TT Kairen:
In addition to Metalix Nightmare's reply above, while they would have a concept of male and female (possibly, the fauna of Thessia has not been explored), gender dysphoria would be an impossibility for them. Asari have been described as 'all-female' by the codex, and mono-gendered by Liara, our primary source of asari information. Since they are all biologically female, they cannot disassociate with their sex/gender because there is no alternative that they could have been born as.

*shrugs*

They've been around other sentient species that identify as male/female for thousands of years. Maybe some of them resented being automatically labelled as "female" by all the other species, or thought they felt more male than female once they discovered the meaning of the terms or whatever. Who are we to tell them what they feel?

Either way, this is a massive storm in a teacup IMO.

AD-Stu:

TT Kairen:
In addition to Metalix Nightmare's reply above, while they would have a concept of male and female (possibly, the fauna of Thessia has not been explored), gender dysphoria would be an impossibility for them. Asari have been described as 'all-female' by the codex, and mono-gendered by Liara, our primary source of asari information. Since they are all biologically female, they cannot disassociate with their sex/gender because there is no alternative that they could have been born as.

*shrugs*

They've been around other sentient species that identify as male/female for thousands of years. Maybe some of them resented being automatically labelled as "female" by all the other species, or thought they felt more male than female once they discovered the meaning of the terms or whatever. Who are we to tell them what they feel?

Either way, this is a massive storm in a teacup IMO.

I'd call it more an easily missed tip of the iceburg.

Continuing on, WHY would Asari resent automatically being labeled female when by all accounts they didn't have a need to even come up with any words for males until they met the Salarians? That would be like a human taking offense at being labeled human.

The whole exercise is basically taking human mindsets and forcing them onto a non-human species. Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 goes into this. Humans and Asari have a lot of similarities, but the two are still VERY different in terms of cultural upbringing, and biology. An Asari would have absolutely no real basis for wanting to be seen as male simply because there are no male Asari. An Asari going around calling herself male would probably be looked at like Humans look at Otherkin.

Really, this whole mess is just indicative of just how BAD the writing has gotten at Bioware as of late. ME1 and even 2 managed to keep a fair bit of this stuff in mind when it came to establishing their universe, whereas the current crop seem more interested in virtue signaling (to the point that it looks like you can't even be an asshole in this game like you could with Shepard) than expanding or working with a universe.

Metalix Knightmare:
I'd call it more an easily missed tip of the iceburg.

Continuing on, WHY would Asari resent automatically being labeled female when by all accounts they didn't have a need to even come up with any words for males until they met the Salarians? That would be like a human taking offense at being labeled human.

The whole exercise is basically taking human mindsets and forcing them onto a non-human species. Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 goes into this. Humans and Asari have a lot of similarities, but the two are still VERY different in terms of cultural upbringing, and biology. An Asari would have absolutely no real basis for wanting to be seen as male simply because there are no male Asari. An Asari going around calling herself male would probably be looked at like Humans look at Otherkin.

Really, this whole mess is just indicative of just how BAD the writing has gotten at Bioware as of late. ME1 and even 2 managed to keep a fair bit of this stuff in mind when it came to establishing their universe, whereas the current crop seem more interested in virtue signaling (to the point that it looks like you can't even be an asshole in this game like you could with Shepard) than expanding or working with a universe.

I'll concede one point: this isn't something the writing team at Bioware needed to do. It's pretty clearly something they did because they wanted to be inclusive, and maybe to start conversations like this one, or maybe to make their game appeal to a broader human audience.

As for the rest, all that can really be said is that just because you can't see "a real basis for wanting to be seen as male" doesn't mean someone else couldn't, or that one couldn't exist.

AD-Stu:

Metalix Knightmare:
I'd call it more an easily missed tip of the iceburg.

Continuing on, WHY would Asari resent automatically being labeled female when by all accounts they didn't have a need to even come up with any words for males until they met the Salarians? That would be like a human taking offense at being labeled human.

The whole exercise is basically taking human mindsets and forcing them onto a non-human species. Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 goes into this. Humans and Asari have a lot of similarities, but the two are still VERY different in terms of cultural upbringing, and biology. An Asari would have absolutely no real basis for wanting to be seen as male simply because there are no male Asari. An Asari going around calling herself male would probably be looked at like Humans look at Otherkin.

Really, this whole mess is just indicative of just how BAD the writing has gotten at Bioware as of late. ME1 and even 2 managed to keep a fair bit of this stuff in mind when it came to establishing their universe, whereas the current crop seem more interested in virtue signaling (to the point that it looks like you can't even be an asshole in this game like you could with Shepard) than expanding or working with a universe.

I'll concede one point: this isn't something the writing team at Bioware needed to do. It's pretty clearly something they did because they wanted to be inclusive, and maybe to start conversations like this one, or maybe to make their game appeal to a broader human audience.

As for the rest, all that can really be said is that just because you can't see "a real basis for wanting to be seen as male" doesn't mean someone else couldn't, or that one couldn't exist.

You're still thinking of this from a human perspective, both biologically and mentally. Male exclusive words such as Patriarch just don't EXIST with Asari, nor does the male gender. There is absolutely no reason for an Asari to think of themselves as male outside of some kind of otherkin equivalent. Even by the standards set by people with gender dysphoria, a male identifying Asari makes absolutely no sense! A good bit of the science backing that up is that some people are born with brain patterns of the other gender (A gross oversimplification, but you get the point.) which is not something that would be an issue in a species that has no gender variety.

The absolute closest thing you could get are Asari that prefer women above men, and even that makes more sense just from an evolutionary stand point. Even with the risk of Ardat Yakshi, the idea that a species wouldn't seek to breed with it's own kind is pretty out there.

Metalix Knightmare:

You're still thinking of this from a human perspective, both biologically and mentally. Male exclusive words such as Patriarch just don't EXIST with Asari, nor does the male gender. There is absolutely no reason for an Asari to think of themselves as male outside of some kind of otherkin equivalent. Even by the standards set by people with gender dysphoria, a male identifying Asari makes absolutely no sense! A good bit of the science backing that up is that some people are born with brain patterns of the other gender (A gross oversimplification, but you get the point.) which is not something that would be an issue in a species that has no gender variety.

The absolute closest thing you could get are Asari that prefer women above men, and even that makes more sense just from an evolutionary stand point. Even with the risk of Ardat Yakshi, the idea that a species wouldn't seek to breed with it's own kind is pretty out there.

If male exclusive words wouldn't make sense in Asari, why would female ones? Why, in their native language, would a mono-gendered species adhere to one half of a gender binary? I mean, they aren't "female" in the same way as they aren't "male", so why do all our human language translators peg them as one?

So an Asari gets resentful that, due to automatic translators, other fucking species have pegged them as all being an arbitrary gender present in their own other species and decides they want to be referred to as the other one.

altnameJag:

Metalix Knightmare:

You're still thinking of this from a human perspective, both biologically and mentally. Male exclusive words such as Patriarch just don't EXIST with Asari, nor does the male gender. There is absolutely no reason for an Asari to think of themselves as male outside of some kind of otherkin equivalent. Even by the standards set by people with gender dysphoria, a male identifying Asari makes absolutely no sense! A good bit of the science backing that up is that some people are born with brain patterns of the other gender (A gross oversimplification, but you get the point.) which is not something that would be an issue in a species that has no gender variety.

The absolute closest thing you could get are Asari that prefer women above men, and even that makes more sense just from an evolutionary stand point. Even with the risk of Ardat Yakshi, the idea that a species wouldn't seek to breed with it's own kind is pretty out there.

If male exclusive words wouldn't make sense in Asari, why would female ones? Why, in their native language, would a mono-gendered species adhere to one half of a gender binary? I mean, they aren't "female" in the same way as they aren't "male", so why do all our human language translators peg them as one?

So an Asari gets resentful that, due to automatic translators, other fucking species have pegged them as all being an arbitrary gender present in their own other species and decides they want to be referred to as the other one.

Why use female ones? Translation convenience to put it bluntly. They look female, so for the sake of convenience everyone uses female pronouns with the translators to speed things along. (I can see why the most diplomatic of the races would rather not have to work out preferred pronouns with other species when they're the ONLY ones this really presents much of an issue with.)

Not to mention we only hear it, again, from the human perspective. For all we know the Asari translation defaults to Donor for males and Receiver for females, or whatever they would use, and given how Asari reproduction works that's more along the lines of who's on top during sex more than gender.

As for why human translators would default to female? Well, if it looks like a duck, quack's like a duck, and has pretty much all of the anatomy a female human would have, it's female for all intents and purposes.

And why would an Asari want to be referred to as the male gender, when all of their similarities are with the female one? Again, this would be like a human claiming that he identifies as a wolf.

Metalix Knightmare:
And why would an Asari want to be referred to as the male gender, when all of their similarities are with the female one? Again, this would be like a human claiming that he identifies as a wolf.

So first thing's first, let's just acknowwledge that we're talking about a fictional race of video game aliens, in a video game series whose creators have been happy to just change its mythology if it suits them. You're taking this way too seriously.

That said: if I'm an asari, I find out humans are referring to me as "female" and that many of those humans consider "females" to be the weaker gender or whatever, I'd probably be pissed and want to know why I couldn't call myself a male - y'know, since I have no actual gender and it doesn't matter anyway.

Your whole argument is basically "they should be OK with being called female because they have boobs".

AD-Stu:

Metalix Knightmare:
And why would an Asari want to be referred to as the male gender, when all of their similarities are with the female one? Again, this would be like a human claiming that he identifies as a wolf.

So first thing's first, let's just acknowwledge that we're talking about a fictional race of video game aliens, in a video game series whose creators have been happy to just change its mythology if it suits them. You're taking this way too seriously.

That said: if I'm an asari, I find out humans are referring to me as "female" and that many of those humans consider "females" to be the weaker gender or whatever, I'd probably be pissed and want to know why I couldn't call myself a male - y'know, since I have no actual gender and it doesn't matter anyway.

Your whole argument is basically "they should be OK with being called female because they have boobs".

It's not just boobs. Every single Asari is capable of giving birth too, which is something that is generally unique to the females of any species. (Even Seahorse males don't really give birth so much as just carry the eggs in a pouch.)

Not to mention, "and that many of those humans consider "females" to be the weaker gender". Do you even play Mass Effect games? Pretty much no one has ever been shown thinking that by that point. Ever. If there are holdouts to that kind of mentality, they're a minority that's small enough to be considered a rounding error. So not only are you looking at this from a human perspective, but a MODERN human perspective when the ME games have over 100 years of changes.

And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.

Also, when the fans start taking the lore more seriously than the devs, that's a pretty bad problem with the devs. Yes, you can do whatever you want with a universe you made, but you need to stick to established rules, otherwise any sense of dramatic tension just goes right out the window.

Also, people on a gaming website taking a game's story and lore seriosly?

image

Metalix Knightmare:
And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.

The turians that consider females so equal that we literally don't see a female turian until the DLC for the third game? :P

AD-Stu:

Metalix Knightmare:
And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.

The turians that consider females so equal that we literally don't see a female turian until the DLC for the third game? :P

That's an issue with the devs and I'm pretty certain you're aware of that. Heck, with the established lore of the Turians it would've been weird for that NOT to be the case.

Metalix Knightmare:

AD-Stu:

Metalix Knightmare:
And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.

The turians that consider females so equal that we literally don't see a female turian until the DLC for the third game? :P

That's an issue with the devs and I'm pretty certain you're aware of that. Heck, with the established lore of the Turians it would've been weird for that NOT to be the case.

Erm... what established lore are you talking about where it would've been weird for there to be female turians around? I mean they're referred to off-screen all the time, and they're everywhere in Andromeda. In-game, it's blatantly weird not to see any.

But yes, I'm aware of the meta development resources reasons for there being only male turians in the first few games. That was my point though, and it comes back to your "quacks like a duck" comment: asari "quack" (look female) in part because for resourcing reasons they're just a blue head stuck on a human female body.

If the devs had more resources from the outset maybe that wouldn't have been the case. Or maybe it still would have been, because the whole race was pretty clearly conceived to appeal to the mostly-male audience of the game.

Also if we're saying that the Mass Effect universe is done with sexism then why do we only see human females and asari dancing in skimpy outfits in the bars during the OT? Ashley even comments on it walking into Chora's Den in ME1 - that you can go halfway across the galaxy, but some attitudes still persist. It's just one example for current-day gender attitudes still existing, but it's definitely there.

ANYWHO: the whole point the devs seem to have been making is that people should be allowed to identify whichever way they want to identify. So: is it possible that an asari somewhere, someday, for some reason, having seen the way gender labels are used in other species, would want to identify as male? You're twisting yourself into an increasingly convoluted logical pretzel to find the "no", when it's super-easy to come up with a whole bunch of scenarios for "yes".

And let's face it, when people say they have a problem with this, what are they really saying? Are they really upset that Bioware are messing with sanctity of the in-game lore, even though it's something they've always done and always will do? If that's that's true in your case, then I applaud your dedication. But for a lot of people I suspect it's not really the lore-messing they're concerned with, but that those damn Bioware SJWs are trying to force queer stuff into their space fantasy time...

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