Can someone explain this weird Jimquisition video about difficult games to me?

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Kerg3927:

Pallindromemordnillap:
Okay, your argument here is more or less "Must keep the game clear of the Heretics for they are unclean" which is really a little bit sinister. Assuming for a second that this great swathe of The Weak And Lazy exist anywhere outside of your own head why do you consider it important they not be allowed to play Dark Souls?

No, that's not what I said. Just more of your shitty, cheap lawyer, weasel tactics. Twisting something completely around and putting words in my mouth.

You're saying people shouldn't play the game if they're not going to play exactly to your arbitrary standards. You even add words like weak and inferior. I'm not putting any words in your mouth at all, just saying them back to you in a way you find less palatable. And if your argument has to be worded a certain way for you to stick to it, then you've got a shitty argument.

Kerg3927:
It doesn't matter. I don't even play golf, but I would also be against people whining that golf courses need to add a mechanism in which one could press a button and the ball automatically rolls into the hole. I think that would be bad. You would probably disagree. It doesn't have to affect me tangibly and personally for me to form the opinion that it is bad. I think it's bad because I don't want to see people tempted to use such a button. I'd rather they learn how to play golf instead, because I think it would be good for them, and I think doing it without resorting to an easy mode button would make them happier. Building self esteem is a good thing, in my opinion.

You've tried using this comparison before so I'll say what I said then; what your describing there basically sounds like crazy/miniature golf. You going to tell me you take issue with crazy golf too?

Kerg3927:
There is no Dark Souls hard mode. There is simply Dark Souls. Phoenixmgs is full of shit, in my opinion. But he certainly is experiencing the challenges as intended by the developer because he's playing the game as it was intended, not in some altered form.

But he's not experiencing the challenges though. Because he doesn't find it challenging. So if you accept he can still be experiencing as as the developers intended without experiencing the challenge, then its clearly not the challenge that's the whole experience. So you should have no issue with removing the challenge.

Kerg3927:
I say tom-ay-to, you say tom-ah-to. Difference of opinion.

Yeah but given your opinion on teaching is apparently based on movies rather than real life, and movies you clearly haven't understood at that, I'm still willing to declare you outright wrong on that front.

Kerg3927:
Again, you are twisting things around and putting words in my mouth with your shit tactics. I am doing neither. FromSoftware/Namco Bandai are the ones telling people how to play the games they develop/publish, and they do have authority. Absolute fucking authority. I'm simply forming an opinion about the game and voicing it. Last I checked, one doesn't need authority or a badge to do that.

You're telling people that if they don't play your way then are weak, and that complaining about it makes them entitled. Telling people how to play and how to think is exactly what you're doing. There is no twisting here, you just don't like me pointing out what you're actually doing, which you should really take as a hint that you shouldn't be doing it.

Kerg3927:
Good to see you finally admit that something, anything at all, can actually be debatable.

If I didn't think things were debatable I wouldn't be here debating them. The only thing I think is downright, indefensibly wrong is you and your attitude.

Kerg3927:
And saying that keeping the game as is would be good for people, because it encourages people to beat the game the normal way, which will make them feel good about themselves, is also empathy.

Gonna have to point out that this is a key example of you telling people how to think. "You WILL play the game this way! You WILL enjoy it! You WILL have obligatory sensation afterwards!" Everyone has to experience the game the same way you experience it, everyone has to enjoy the parts of it you enjoy. You don't leave any thought for an approach other than your own, which is why you keep getting called elitist.

Kerg3927:
More shit tactics. I've never said that or thought that. I would like to see as many people as possible play Dark Souls and beat it, by the current rules.

Once again, its just you not liking being confronted with a more bluntly honest version of your own attitude. If you're insisting people only get to join in if they fit whatever arbitrary standards you hold, then you aren't being inclusive, you're forming a gated community where you can feel all walled off and secure. You're just telling yourself you're being inclusive while not actually going through with it.

Kerg3927:
And things FromSoftware/Bandai Namco obviously think is important, because that's the way they designed the game.

Except as other mentioned, there have already been some attempts to slide the difficulty about in the game. So why not go a step further?

Kerg3927:
And that's why a video game is not the same as a book. A game is interactive and contains obstacles to overcome. A book does not. They are entirely different things. Demanding that a game remove its obstacles to be like a book is about as silly as someone demanding that a book become interactive and have obstacles added to it.

Not sure if you simply misunderstood or are deliberately misinterpreting, I wouldn't put either past you. The point of the metaphor was not to say "Game must be like book", it was to point out that when you are trying to experience something for yourself (play a game/read a book) then having someone else do it (the Lets Play/someone else reading the book) is not what you are after. Come on, it wasn't that hard to get, try harder next time.

Kerg3927:
Of course people improve with experience. Just like in Dark Souls, every time you die, you learn from your mistakes and improve. That is the intent. It's not learn to quickly give up and turn it down to easy mode so you don't have to learn from your mistakes. That was obviously not the intent, because they didn't make that option available.

And here you go again, assuming that an easy mode is somehow going to make the player invincible or the enemies harmless. This fixation you have that an easy mode will somehow turn Dark Souls into a video rather than a video game is frankly bizarre. If someone is struggling enough to need an easy mode, they easy mode will still be a challenge. They will still die, they will still make mistakes, they will still learn from those mistakes. Your insistence that an easy mode will render Dark Souls an animation just demonstrates your own arrogance I'm afraid; that if its not played your way then its not worth playing at all

Kerg3927:
You are free to have that opinion. But it is entirely false. I don't feel good when I see someone whine and demand an easy way out. I do the opposite. I cringe. I feel bad for them. I want to help them. As I said above, I'd love to see as many people as possible beat Dark Souls, by the current rules. The more the better.

And by feeling bad about them you feel better about yourself. That was in fact the crux of my statement. Glad to see you admit it.

Pallindromemordnillap:

Kerg3927:

Pallindromemordnillap:
Okay, your argument here is more or less "Must keep the game clear of the Heretics for they are unclean" which is really a little bit sinister. Assuming for a second that this great swathe of The Weak And Lazy exist anywhere outside of your own head why do you consider it important they not be allowed to play Dark Souls?

No, that's not what I said. Just more of your shitty, cheap lawyer, weasel tactics. Twisting something completely around and putting words in my mouth.

You're saying people shouldn't play the game if they're not going to play exactly to your arbitrary standards. You even add words like weak and inferior. I'm not putting any words in your mouth at all, just saying them back to you in a way you find less palatable. And if your argument has to be worded a certain way for you to stick to it, then you've got a shitty argument.

How does playing a game by the developer's standards equate to what any player of the game's opinion happens to be? It sounds like you're making this a more personal and bitter issue if for no other reason than to win an argument. It isn't possible to have everything appeal to everyone, nor should it be. No entertainment medium should be homogenized.

The challenge (or apparent lack thereof in some people's case) is as much a part of the SoulsBorne experience as the lore, level design, etc. Trivializing it via a selectable easy mode changes the core identity of the games, and reduces their significance. People are free to complain about it all they want, but if that's the case, then it ultimately isn't really their kind of game.

Pallindromemordnillap:
You're saying people shouldn't play the game if they're not going to play exactly to your arbitrary standards. You even add words like weak and inferior. I'm not putting any words in your mouth at all, just saying them back to you in a way you find less palatable. And if your argument has to be worded a certain way for you to stick to it, then you've got a shitty argument.

Wording matters, a lot. A weaselly lawyer will try to win a case and sway it to his advantage with subtle changes and misrepresentations. You are trying to use the same tactics.

Pallindromemordnillap:
You've tried using this comparison before so I'll say what I said then; what your describing there basically sounds like crazy/miniature golf. You going to tell me you take issue with crazy golf too?

Different game.

Pallindromemordnillap:
But he's not experiencing the challenges though. Because he doesn't find it challenging. So if you accept he can still be experiencing as as the developers intended without experiencing the challenge, then its clearly not the challenge that's the whole experience. So you should have no issue with removing the challenge.

Phoenixmgs is obviously one of the best gamers in the world. You can't expect developers to tailor every game to challenge someone like him. Just like you can't expect every game to be tailored to meet what everyone else wants.

Pallindromemordnillap:
Yeah but given your opinion on teaching is apparently based on movies rather than real life, and movies you clearly haven't understood at that, I'm still willing to declare you outright wrong on that front.

Let me ask you a question. Watch this commercial. What is your first thought?

Do you think, OMFG what an elitist asshole??? Fuck that guy. If so, then it's pretty clear that you and I are never going to be in the same area code with our opinions, because we obviously view the world very differently.

I played high school football in Texas. Not that I think that's anything special. Lots of people play tough sports, with tough coaches with tough expectations. But it was a lot like in that video, except not so dusty, and we didn't get to drink Powerade. And the coach in that video is a lot like the coaches who I played under, and he is a lot like the coaches in the sports I watch. Just to give you some background. I'm a sports guy. I grew up playing sports. I watch sports almost daily. I read about sports daily. I'm watching a football game right now as I type this. I used a sports analogy because sports is in my wheelhouse.

I used the movie as an example only because I thought it would be something everyone can relate to. I know some people don't know much about sports, and even if many people haven't seen Hoosiers, I think most have seen a movie like it at some point or another in their life.

Pallindromemordnillap:
You're telling people that if they don't play your way then are weak, and that complaining about it makes them entitled. Telling people how to play and how to think is exactly what you're doing. There is no twisting here, you just don't like me pointing out what you're actually doing, which you should really take as a hint that you shouldn't be doing it.

Again, not my way. FromSoftware/Bandai Namco's way. I just want people to play by the rules. Yes, I like the rules in Dark Souls, but I didn't make the rules.

Pallindromemordnillap:
Gonna have to point out that this is a key example of you telling people how to think. "You WILL play the game this way! You WILL enjoy it! You WILL have obligatory sensation afterwards!" Everyone has to experience the game the same way you experience it, everyone has to enjoy the parts of it you enjoy. You don't leave any thought for an approach other than your own, which is why you keep getting called elitist.

Most games are not a blank slate for everyone to enjoy in whatever manner they see fit. They are designed a specific way, with specific rules in place. Yes, I like the Dark Souls design, and I like the experience I think it produces for people who play it, but that doesn't mean I am telling people how to think. That's your invention. Now yes, FromSoftware/Bandai Namco is dictating things to people. Of course they are. They designed the game. They design the maze. The players are simply the rats. That's how it works. I think you are confusing the designer (From/Bandai) with someone who simply likes the design (me).

Pallindromemordnillap:
Once again, its just you not liking being confronted with a more bluntly honest version of your own attitude. If you're insisting people only get to join in if they fit whatever arbitrary standards you hold, then you aren't being inclusive, you're forming a gated community where you can feel all walled off and secure. You're just telling yourself you're being inclusive while not actually going through with it.

"arbitrary standards you hold" ... again you are confusing me with From/Bandai. Yes, I like their standards. But I didn't create them, and I don't own them.

From/Bandai is being extremely inclusive to anyone who wants to play the game by their rules. And anyone can have a key to their "gated community" by simply playing the game by their rules. Again, I like their rules, but they're not my rules.

Are you trying to tell me that simply liking their rules makes me an asshole? I think you are.

Pallindromemordnillap:
Except as other mentioned, there have already been some attempts to slide the difficulty about in the game. So why not go a step further?

Are you talking about that comment by Miyazaki that was later found to be misinterpreted? I'm not aware that an easy mode for Dark Souls is ever something that has been seriously considered. I certainly wouldn't say that it's one step away. Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

Pallindromemordnillap:
Not sure if you simply misunderstood or are deliberately misinterpreting, I wouldn't put either past you. The point of the metaphor was not to say "Game must be like book", it was to point out that when you are trying to experience something for yourself (play a game/read a book) then having someone else do it (the Lets Play/someone else reading the book) is not what you are after. Come on, it wasn't that hard to get, try harder next time.

I misunderstood. I thought you were comparing trying to read a book and having it slapped out of your hand with, for example, someone trying to enjoy the scenery in Dark Souls and a skeleton sneaking up behind them and stabbing them in the back. If you're going to enjoy the scenery in Dark Souls, you better keep that head on a swivel. Ha.

Pallindromemordnillap:
And here you go again, assuming that an easy mode is somehow going to make the player invincible or the enemies harmless. This fixation you have that an easy mode will somehow turn Dark Souls into a video rather than a video game is frankly bizarre. If someone is struggling enough to need an easy mode, they easy mode will still be a challenge. They will still die, they will still make mistakes, they will still learn from those mistakes. Your insistence that an easy mode will render Dark Souls an animation just demonstrates your own arrogance I'm afraid; that if its not played your way then its not worth playing at all

And as I said before... for some it will still be challenging on easy mode. For others it will, in my opinion, ruin the experience by making it too easy. We disagree on which group we would like to see the game cater to, and as a sidenote, disagreement should okay, but for you, it's obviously not okay, because you refuse to agree to disagree.

Anyway, you want the game changed to cater toward the inept. I think there are very few truly inept people. You obviously disagree. I prefer that the game stay as it currently is and cater toward the capable but weak. Not having an easy mode temptation helps those people get through the game as intended, in my opinion, of course.

Pallindromemordnillap:
And by feeling bad about them you feel better about yourself. That was in fact the crux of my statement. Glad to see you admit it.

Nope. Sorry, you completely missed the mark by a mile.

hanselthecaretaker:
How does playing a game by the developer?s standards equate to what any player of the game?s opinion happens to be? It sounds like you?re making this a more personal and bitter issue if for no other reason than to win an argument. It isn?t possible to have everything appeal to everyone, nor should it be. No entertainment medium should be homogenized.

The challenge (or apparent lack thereof in some people?s case) is as much a part of the SoulsBorne experience as the lore, level design, etc. Trivializing it via a selectable easy mode changes the core identity of the games, and reduces their significance. People are free to complain about it all they want, but if that?s the case, then it ultimately isn?t really their kind of game.

The challenge is integral...to you. The easy mode would be trivial...to you. Although with that second one maybe not, you never did answer why you selecting modes that make things easier is different to just selecting an easy mode.

I also don't see why easy modes across the board would make things homogenised. You add identically easy modes to God of War, Dark Souls and Superhot they're still all going to play differently and feel like different games. Its almost like its more than just the difficulty that makes a game a game or something

Kerg3927:
Wording matters, a lot. A weaselly lawyer will try to win a case and sway it to his advantage with subtle changes and misrepresentations. You are trying to use the same tactics.

And yet you are still not pointing out how exactly my wording is wrong. I've pointed out exactly what you are saying in terms you don't like, but its still what you're saying. Prove otherwise or admit that even you can't stand your argument.

Kerg3927:
Different game.

Not really. You're still using a golf club to hit a golf ball along a golf course, its just now that golf course is full of models and moving parts instead of sand bunkers or water hazards (although they still have those too occasionally). Its a scaled down and arguably easier version of golf but its still golf, so do you take issue with it the same way you do with an easy mode in Dark Souls

Kerg3927:
Phoenixmgs is obviously one of the best gamers in the world. You can't expect developers to tailor every game to challenge someone like him. Just like you can't expect every game to be tailored to meet what everyone else wants.

You're side-stepping what I'm getting at. One more time: "if you accept he can still be experiencing as as the developers intended without experiencing the challenge, then its clearly not the challenge that's the whole experience. So you should have no issue with removing the challenge." So is Phoenix not experiencing things "right"? Or do you just have to accept that the challenge is not the be all and end all?

Kerg3927:
Let me ask you a question. Watch this commercial. What is your first thought?

[Video Snippet]

Do you think, OMFG what an elitist asshole??? Fuck that guy. If so, then it's pretty clear that you and I are never going to be in the same area code with our opinions, because we obviously view the world very differently.

I played high school football in Texas. Not that I think that's anything special. Lots of people play tough sports, with tough coaches with tough expectations. But it was a lot like in that video, except not so dusty, and we didn't get to drink Powerade. And the coach in that video is a lot like the coaches who I played under, and he is a lot like the coaches in the sports I watch. Just to give you some background. I'm a sports guy. I grew up playing sports. I watch sports almost daily. I read about sports daily. I'm watching a football game right now as I type this. I used a sports analogy because sports is in my wheelhouse.

I used the movie as an example only because I thought it would be something everyone can relate to. I know some people don't know much about sports, and even if many people haven't seen Hoosiers, I think most have seen a movie like it at some point or another in their life.

I just think its a dude shouting. I don't even see the coach, he's just a random off-screen voice. There is not enough evidence of what he's shouting about or who he's talking to for me to form conclusions.
Is there a point to this whole spiel about sports? Okay, you played football back in the past, what does that matter? It just brings me back to how useless it is comparing a team sport to a single player experience like Dark Souls

Kerg3927:
Again, not my way. FromSoftware/Bandai Namco's way. I just want people to play by the rules. Yes, I like the rules in Dark Souls, but I didn't make the rules.

See, you're admitting the rules be stuck to the way you like them. Just because you didn't make them doesn't mean its not your way. And simply advocating for things being done your way, the way you like them would be fine if only that were all you're doing. Because you also can't help adding that you think any player who doesn't do things the way you like them is weak, that any developer who doesn't do things your way is dumbing down. You are presenting your preference as the right/superior choice and telling anyone who disagrees that they are wrong. Hence why I continue to call you an entitled elitist arsehole.

Kerg3927:
Most games are not a blank slate for everyone to enjoy in whatever manner they see fit. They are designed a specific way, with specific rules in place. Yes, I like the Dark Souls design, and I like the experience I think it produces for people who play it, but that doesn't mean I am telling people how to think. That's your invention. Now yes, FromSoftware/Bandai Namco is dictating things to people. Of course they are. They designed the game. They design the maze. The players are simply the rats. That's how it works. I think you are confusing the designer (From/Bandai) with someone who simply likes the design (me).

You are demanding that people who do not fit to your standards (and as I have pointed out above and will point out again below, they are in fact your standards) be considered weak, be considered lazy, be considered inferior, that people asking for an easy mode are entitled and developers giving them one are dumbing down. Telling people what they should be thinking is exactly what you are doing.

Kerg3927:
"arbitrary standards you hold" ... again you are confusing me with From/Bandai. Yes, I like their standards. But I didn't create them, and I don't own them.

You are the one insisting the rules you play by are the only rules that should exist. You are the one insisting anyone who does not play to those rules is weak. They are your standards.

Kerg3927:
From/Bandai is being extremely inclusive to anyone who wants to play the game by their rules. And anyone can have a key to their "gated community" by simply playing the game by their rules. Again, I like their rules, but they're not my rules.

Are you trying to tell me that simply liking their rules makes me an asshole? I think you are.

Saying people can be included as long as they stick to a specific set of rules is like saying "Yes you can be a part of this neighbourhood, but only if you're white". You can see how thats not really inclusive at all right?

Kerg3927:
Are you talking about that comment by Miyazaki that was later found to be misinterpreted? I'm not aware that an easy mode for Dark Souls is ever something that has been seriously considered. I certainly wouldn't say that it's one step away. Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

From what I've been reading in this topic, there are already ways of tweaking the difficulty within Dark Souls. hansel even admits that he uses them. So nice try, but the only one misinterpreting things here is you.

Kerg3927:
And as I said before... for some it will still be challenging on easy mode. For others it will, in my opinion, ruin the experience by making it too easy. We disagree on which group we would like to see the game cater to, and as a sidenote, disagreement should okay, but for you, it's obviously not okay, because you refuse to agree to disagree.

If its too easy then don't play it on the easy mode. How many times does this need to be repeated to you Kerg? No one is asking for the easy mode to replace any other possibility, they're asking for one to exist alongside the harder difficulties

Kerg3927:
Anyway, you want the game changed to cater toward the inept. I think there are very few truly inept people. You obviously disagree. I prefer that the game stay as it currently is and cater toward the capable but weak. Not having an easy mode temptation helps those people get through the game as intended, in my opinion, of course.

Well this argument just sways all over the place, doesn't it? You seem to think there are both very few inept people, but also that there are in fact loads of The Weak And Lazy who will 'misuse' an easy mode. It just highlights how ridiculous your line of thinking really is, you can't have it both ways. If you genuinely think there are very few inept people (though given your habits so far I think thats a load of bollocks) then they'll be using the easy mode to learn. They'll be starting off somewhere they can manage then getting better as they continue playing. You start people on a warm up not a full blown sprint.

Kerg3927:
Nope. Sorry, you completely missed the mark by a mile.

And yet I provide evidence, namely your past behaviour, to back my argument up. You do not. I'm afraid "Nuh-uh!" stops being an effective counter-point past the age of about five.

Pallindromemordnillap:
[snip]

You can try to make this into more than it is. You can use thousands upon thousands of words of sidestepping, misdirecting, weaselly drivel to try to paint a white hat on yourself and a black hat on me. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to the following two opinions...

1) I love games like Dark Souls. I don't want them to change because I think the design is great the way it is.

vs.

2) You don't like games like Dark Souls. You think the design is elitist, and you want it to change. You don't like people who like games like Dark Souls and who want to keep the design of those games intact. You think those people are elitist assholes.

And when people have opinions, what do they usually do when interacting with other humans? They advocate for their opinion. But that's all it is. Trying to sell one's opinion and convince others to adopt it.

You can try for page after page to make it into more than that, but the bottom line is it's not. And the only thing that has been "proven" by this long running pissing match is that you are nothing but a troll. And I'm tired of feeding the troll. It's cutting into my video game playing time.

Kerg3927:
Phoenixmgs is obviously one of the best gamers in the world. You can't expect developers to tailor every game to challenge someone like him.

Dude, the games aren't hard, I don't consider playing careful to be difficult. Here's a guy that beat Bloodborne on a live stream in one sitting WITHOUT GETTING HIT ONCE. Nothing he did was that skillful as I jumped around to various boss fights. He knows how to stagger-lock some bosses to make some fights joke easy. Or he would wait for one specific boss attack to take advantage of while just staying away until said attack. Or watch how safe and careful he fights Rom in a 15 minute fight, he doesn't even take a chance with the spider minions at all. Explain to me how that's hard from a skill standpoint. Compare that to the infamous "Evo Moment 37" that in approximately 10 seconds demonstrated far more skill than over 3 hours of playing Bloodborne without getting hit.

Kerg3927:
But at the end of the day, it all boils down to the following two opinions...

1) I love games like Dark Souls. I don't want them to change because I think the design is great the way it is.

vs.

2) You don't like games like Dark Souls. You think the design is elitist, and you want it to change. You don't like people who like games like Dark Souls and who want to keep the design of those games intact. You think those people are elitist assholes.

That's not what you guys having been debating through, it basically all comes down to the following:

- If FromSoft wants to include an easy mode and they put one in, you still have your game that you love with your preferred designed completely intact so what does it matter? If you have a problem with that, then you are an elitist asshole.

Well done, now 12 pages arguing for denying people options based entirely from elitist gatekeeping. Like any ground-breaking achievement; acknowledgement, recognition and a prize is in order...

Pallindromemordnillap:

.

Thank you, I think we're getting somewhere with something. You seem to have answered your own question of why a game like Dark Souls even needs an easy mode, since there are plenty of them built in already. That's part of what makes it unique. Why should that be taken away from its design? Why does everything need to be spelled out for the player, like they were, well, just watching a movie or something?

Phoenixmgs:

.

A. What does a fighting game Pro vs match with such a higher skill ceiling than Dark Souls have anything to do with the topic of easy modes? If anything, it really does more to paint yourself as an elitist asshole by the constant bragging about how your "chosen games" are so much more difficult.

B. Again, it's already universally agreed that Dark Souls has built in easy modes. You can't flip flop and say, "Welllll they're not easy for everyone". Like I said above, it would trivialize the intended design anyways.

hanselthecaretaker:
A. What does a fighting game Pro vs match with such a higher skill ceiling than Dark Souls have anything to do with the topic of easy modes? If anything, it really does more to paint yourself as an elitist asshole by the constant bragging about how your ?chosen games? are so much more difficult.

B. Again, it?s already universally agreed that Dark Souls has built in easy modes. You can?t flip flop and say, ?Welllll they?re not easy for everyone?. Like I said above, it would trivialize the intended design anyways.

A) That mainly has to do with my hatred over the pretension by the Souls community surrounding the difficulty of the games. I don't care of someone loves any such game, but don't described it as something it's not. I played Dark Souls 1 because I heard the series were really hard games. Thus, I played the game wasting time due to false pretenses basically. How am I saying my games are better because they are harder? Battletoads would be like the best game ever made if harder = better. Plus, I don't even play fighting games. Bayonetta is better because its combat mechanics are better, not because it's harder. I listed Horizon as my GOTY when it's a pretty easy game but the combat mechanics are pretty solid along with being a blast to actually play. Divinity Original Sin 2 will probably end up being my real GOTY when I end up playing it yet there's literally ZERO execution skill required in the game as it's turn-based. Skill can be rated rather objectively, which the Souls community utterly failed at. For example how is anything in a Souls game even close to the said moment in Street Fighter where the guy parried 15 consecutive hits with each one being within a 10-frame window? You can also use real word examples like how it's easier to roll a bowling ball into the pocket than it to throw a strike out the outside corner in baseball because every professional bowler can do that at-will while a professional pitcher can't hit the same spot over and over again.

B) The question is simply:
If FromSoft wants to include an easy mode and they put one in, what does it matter? If you have a problem with that, then you are an elitist asshole, it's as simple as that.

Lastly, an easy mode could be beneficial. The "different" difficulties in a Souls game are there because of how unbalanced the games are. If someone wants to play "fun" way and they find that too hard, playing the "unfun" way isn't really a solution, now is it? Sure, they'll beat the game but they won't have fun.

Phoenixmgs:

hanselthecaretaker:
A. What does a fighting game Pro vs match with such a higher skill ceiling than Dark Souls have anything to do with the topic of easy modes? If anything, it really does more to paint yourself as an elitist asshole by the constant bragging about how your ?chosen games? are so much more difficult.

B. Again, it?s already universally agreed that Dark Souls has built in easy modes. You can?t flip flop and say, ?Welllll they?re not easy for everyone?. Like I said above, it would trivialize the intended design anyways.

A) That mainly has to do with my hatred over the pretension by the Souls community surrounding the difficulty of the games. I don't care of someone loves any such game, but don't described it as something it's not. I played Dark Souls 1 because I heard the series were really hard games. Thus, I played the game wasting time due to false pretenses basically. How am I saying my games are better because they are harder? Battletoads would be like the best game ever made if harder = better. Plus, I don't even play fighting games. Bayonetta is better because its combat mechanics are better, not because it's harder. I listed Horizon as my GOTY when it's a pretty easy game but the combat mechanics are pretty solid along with being a blast to actually play. Divinity Original Sin 2 will probably end up being my real GOTY when I end up playing it yet there's literally ZERO execution skill required in the game as it's turn-based. Skill can be rated rather objectively, which the Souls community utterly failed at. For example how is anything in a Souls game even close to the said moment in Street Fighter where the guy parried 15 consecutive hits with each one being within a 10-frame window? You can also use real word examples like how it's easier to roll a bowling ball into the pocket than it to throw a strike out the outside corner in baseball because every professional bowler can do that at-will while a professional pitcher can't hit the same spot over and over again.

B) The question is simply:
If FromSoft wants to include an easy mode and they put one in, what does it matter? If you have a problem with that, then you are an elitist asshole, it's as simple as that.

Lastly, an easy mode could be beneficial. The "different" difficulties in a Souls game are there because of how unbalanced the games are. If someone wants to play "fun" way and they find that too hard, playing the "unfun" way isn't really a solution, now is it? Sure, they'll beat the game but they won't have fun.

- Well then we're back to the "what's not difficult for you may indeed be difficult for others". Are you really going to say just because you think Souls' difficulty is over rated, that anyone who thinks differently is full of it? The difficulty of any game will always be subjective, but that doesn't mean players should be demanding easy modes from games that were clearly, consciously designed to be played without them; at least in their traditional form.

- The difficulty levels of any game are there because they are unbalanced; otherwise they wouldn't need them at all. Also, how does playing Souls a certain "easy" way make it less fun than cheesing/spamming your way through any other game on easy or even medium? At least with Souls, the cheesing is limited to a few enemies or areas where normal tactics may be too risky for inexperienced players. You dismiss the parry/riposte as not being worth the risk for example, but to others it may very well be. Everyone's play style is different. There really is no right or wrong in Souls games.

Kerg3927:

Pallindromemordnillap:
Snippedy-do-da

Snippedy-day

A) So after a second time asking you to demonstrate why your argument doesn't boil down to "They are unclean they must not be allowed in this game" you are still unwilling or incapable of doing so. Not exactly a point in your favour, is it?

B) From your perspective they would not change. The easy mode is for other people, you still get your hard mode. Unless when you were talking about the "temptation of easy mode" luring people in earlier you were in fact talking about yourself. In which case a lot of the insults you've been throwing are kind of hypocritical, aren't they?

C) I think the design of Dark Souls takes itself needlessly seriously given that it is a video game. And I have no objection to the people who play it as a whole, because I suspect they're like Azure and Ironclash; capable of stating their opinion as merely an opinion without the need to denigrate anyone else. What I take issue with is the people like you who can only feel good if they're making someone else feel bad. I think you're an elitist because you keep saying elitist things. If you had merely said your piece we would be having this argument, but you just can't help but insult other people along the way

D) Like I said, you aren't simply advocating your opinion. You're insisting that anyone who doesn't do exactly what you do is weak and lazy and that them asking for things is entitled. Being an arsehole isn't going to sell me you're opinion, it's just going to get me to see you as an arsehole

E) I have backed up my point with evidence and quotes, and kept my insults solely to the person I'm addressing. Which is more than you've done. So if I'm a troll, what does that make you I wonder?
Trying to make it more than? Think it's pretty obvious I succeeded. Don't much like it when people don't buy into your self image do you? Have a bit of trouble handling it when someone points out how self-serving your attitude really is?

hanselthecaretaker:

Pallindromemordnillap:

Gah, don't quote the whole thing if you're only responding to one bit!

Thank you, I think we?re getting somewhere with something. You seem to have answered your own question of why a game like Dark Souls even needs an easy mode, since there are plenty of them built in already. That?s part of what makes it unique. Why should that be taken away from its design? Why does everything need to be spelled out for the player, like they were, well, just watching a movie or something?

Okay, if we're going to use movies as a metaphor, an easy mode is like when a DVD asks if you need subtitles before it starts playing the film. People like Kerg respond to that by saying "Well I don't need subtitles so clearly anyone asking for them is weak!" while ignoring the hearing impaired dude who would quite like subtitles, at the very least until they know the dialogue will be loud enough to hear. Would you say the dude who needs subtitles is being entitled for asking for them? Kerg would. Don't be like Kerg

Pallindromemordnillap:

Okay, if we?re going to use movies as a metaphor, an easy mode is like when a DVD asks if you need subtitles before it starts playing the film. People like Kerg respond to that by saying ?Well I don?t need subtitles so clearly anyone asking for them is weak!? while ignoring the hearing impaired dude who would quite like subtitles, at the very least until they know the dialogue will be loud enough to hear. Would you say the dude who needs subtitles is being entitled for asking for them? Kerg would. Don?t be like Kerg

Actually, that would be like using the subtitles in the game, which is completely independent of the gameplay design. I've used subtitles for DS and it didn't affect my playing challenge at all.

Btw, where are you getting the "They are unclean and must not be allowed in this game" from? Did anyone really say that? Unless I missed something in the last dozen pages, it sounds an awful lot like word twisting.

hanselthecaretaker:
- Well then we?re back to the ?what?s not difficult for you may indeed be difficult for others?. Are you really going to say just because you think Souls? difficulty is over rated, that anyone who thinks differently is full of it? The difficulty of any game will always be subjective, but that doesn?t mean players should be demanding easy modes from games that were clearly, consciously designed to be played without them; at least in their traditional form.

- The difficulty levels of any game are there because they are unbalanced; otherwise they wouldn?t need them at all. Also, how does playing Souls a certain ?easy? way make it less fun than cheesing/spamming your way through any other game on easy or even medium? At least with Souls, the cheesing is limited to a few enemies or areas where normal tactics may be too risky for inexperienced players. You dismiss the parry/riposte as not being worth the risk for example, but to others it may very well be. Everyone?s play style is different. There really is no right or wrong in Souls games.

-There's plenty of objectivity with regards to how difficult something is like how much time a player has to react to an enemy attack. Obviously, an attack having a lower reaction time is harder to avoid. Souls enemies are slower compared to several other action combat games. The only thing that actually gives Souls any difficulty whatsoever is its checkpoint system. Again, why can't you and Kerg get this (no one is DEMANDING easy modes here) through your heads? You and Kerg keep strawmanning the debate into something it's not.

-Why can't you and Kerg just answer the following question? How is FromSoft (the developer, not made-up demanding or whining gamers) adding in an easy mode because they want to going to ruin your game in anyway? That is the only question. Everything else is beating around the bush and strawmanning.

To answer your ridiculous other questions that have no merit in the debate... Actual GOOD RPGs have classes that are balanced. What balances mages in any RPG is that they are glass cannons dealing massive damage but being squishy as all hell. Yet Demon's Souls, mages are easy mode. No class/playstyle should be easy mode, that means the game is unbalanced in its core foundations. There's probably at least 5 huge "NO-NOs" that Dark Souls 1 does that should have never even made it out of the conceptual stages of any RPG yet are there in the final game like how on at least 2 occasions one can bypass a stat for DPS purposes. You can spam/exploit just about every enemy in Dark Souls 1, just strafing breaks the game; pull an enemy towards you with an arrow, lock-on, raise shield, push left or right, press R1 when you get to its back, and profit. What enemies can't you exploit that way? The riposte in Dark Souls is never worth the risk and thus not worth even learning, at least in Dark Souls 1 and that's someone that loves the Souls series saying that.

Pallindromemordnillap:
Well I don't need subtitles so clearly anyone asking for them is weak!? while ignoring the hearing impaired dude who would quite like subtitles

Lack of subtitles makes for better art allowing the audience more interpretations!!! Because Breaking Bad is the GOAT TV show because the creator purposefully didn't subtitle the Spanish language scenes because not knowing what people are saying for minutes at a time is so much better!!! That's full-on sarcasm ripping on Breaking Bad BTW :)

Xsjadoblayde:
Well done, now 12 pages arguing for denying people options based entirely from elitist gatekeeping.

What elitist gatekeeping? How in the world is anyone gatekeeping anything.

This boils down to people not wanting to work for things.

Take buying a car for example. Most people would love a very nice car right? A Bentley, Ferrari, Lamborgini, etc, whatever premium car floats your style. But the people who really desire those cars, are usually the people who can't afford them. The owner of my company drives a different 100K+ every month, and when the employees comment about it he just shrugs because to him they are just cars.

Let's say for example you have only $20K to buy a car. For sake of argument, let's pretend you can't purchase older used models and can only buy a brand new car. What would be your options at $20K? Well you could buy a low end car. A Honda Civic, Nissan Versa, things along those lines. But you couldn't even buy a lowest possible end BMW after taxes and fees.

Now take the person driving his new Honda and he would look around and sure would want a BMW right (or any other moderate range car) or hell maybe he was a Porche. What stopping him from getting one? Technically all he has to do to put the work in. Put forth the effort in life to get a better job, go to school, work hard, etc, etc and one day he will absolutely get the car he wants.

But why doesn't my boss care about the fancy cars he drives? Because he already has them. To him they are now nothing but cars and not even worth thinking about. The same opinion would be true for the guy working up to buying his first BMW, once he has that car he will feel great. But at some point, it will just be a car to him and maybe he'll be eyeing the next fancier more expensive car to wish for.

This is the same attitude towards easy modes in video games that don't already have them. Some people want Dark Souls-like games to have easy modes because they don't want to put in the work it would take to earn their way through those games on their own. Why doesn't everyone drive a Ferrari? Why doesn't everyone become a College graduate? Because not everyone wants to do the work. Same principal here.

Because it's a video game though, people feel that they deserve completion because they bought the game, and that's not the case. You have to earn that completion.

But Dark Souls and game like it, are in NO WAY gatekept. There is nothing, NOTHING, stopping anyone from picking up the game and figuring that thing out. Nobody in this thread is trying to keep people away from the game. If anything we want MORE people to overcome the same challenges that we did, because we know how awesome it feels to defeat the game. WE want EVERYONE to have that feeling. And not a watered down version on some easy mode, but the real deal. Those of us who have beaten the game knows that it CAN be beaten by your average person, below average even, it just takes some time and some work. But getting to the end of the game feels just like earning your first nice car. You sit in that seat and you watch the credits roll (or put your hands on that wheel) and you say, "Wow. I did it."

An easy mode would rob people of that. The experience was designed in a certain way, and difficulty modes do ruin that experience.

Technically yes people can beat the game on the normal hard mode, but that easy mode will be there when things get rough, that temptation to reduce the challenge just for this one fight or this one part it is always there. And it does change the experience for EVERYONE, not just the person who really needs easier experiences.

That's why people who love these games don't want that temptation put in place. If a person can't put in the effort to try and try and try, like we did, then they should play something else because there is no reason that the game should cater to you and you alone. Put in the work, and you CAN win. Or don't but nobody is just going to hand you the key's to a Ferrari.

If you can't afford a Ferrari, don't get mad at the people who can. Don't demand Ferrari make an affordable version, because that affordable version wouldn't be a Ferrari, not really. Just like an easy mode would really be Dark Souls.

CritialGaming:
What elitist gatekeeping? How in the world is anyone gatekeeping anything.

This really all started out of a misinterpreted article quoting Miyazaki pondering an easy mode for Souls. Thus, this wasn't started by whining or demanding gamers. Then, the Souls community got all up in arms bitching and whining themselves about ruining their precious games wanting to "gatekeep" out anyone that might like to play on a hypothetical easy mode.

Phoenixmgs:

CritialGaming:
What elitist gatekeeping? How in the world is anyone gatekeeping anything.

This really all started out of a misinterpreted article quoting Miyazaki pondering an easy mode for Souls. Thus, this wasn't started by whining or demanding gamers. Then, the Souls community got all up in arms bitching and whining themselves about ruining their precious games wanting to "gatekeep" out anyone that might like to play on a hypothetical easy mode.

I thought it was about an article on Polygon or Kotaku or one of those sites about how every game should have an easy-mode.

You see? That just goes to show that nobody even knows what the fuck anyone is even talking about anymore.

hanselthecaretaker:
Actually, that would be like using the subtitles in the game, which is completely independent of the gameplay design. I've used subtitles for DS and it didn't affect my playing challenge at all.

Btw, where are you getting the "They are unclean and must not be allowed in this game" from? Did anyone really say that? Unless I missed something in the last dozen pages, it sounds an awful lot like word twisting.

You get how metaphors work right? Using something as a stand in for something else? In this case the subtitles are the easy mode, not literal subtitles. They are something that, though you may not need yourself, are of a help to other people. To deny them that, or worse to deny them the product at all purely because they need subtitles, is just a dick move plain and simple.
Incidentally, turns out this is the second time I've had to explain analogy and metaphor to you. Still trying to decide whether its genuine naivety or you're attempting to be deliberately obtuse to replace a lack of actual point

As for whether I'm twisting Kerg's words, well...

Kerg3927:
Not all gamers wanting an easy mode are weak and lazy, but many of them certainly are, and an easy mode caters to and reinforces that unhealthy behavior, and it robs those people of an opportunity to break those poor habits and experience a sense of accomplishment and self-pride as a result.

Here he literally calls people using easy mode weak and lazy, insists their behaviour is unhealthy and that any sense of achievement they get playing like that are unearned or false

Kerg3927:
There is something very broken and wrong about the mentality that results in people asking questions like, "Why not make everyone happy?" IMO it's a carefully disguised way of saying, "Everyone should make me happy." Which is selfish. And entitled. And that is what I'm talking about when I say "infected."

Ah, a classic, one that still kind of unsettles me now. Seeing attempts at trying to help people as selfish? Not just admitting he thinks easy modes are infecting gaming but trying to support his view? Yeah because none of that is worrying at all

Kerg3927:
Analogy time again. I see a frustrated caterpillar crawling around, and I tell him, dude, just spin a chrysalis, and you can turn into a butterfly! You see the frustrated caterpillar, and tell him, no it's perfectly okay to just give up and spend the rest of your life crawling around as larva, while blaming everyone else for the fact that you can't fly.

Thought I'd provide this one for you to see if your grasp of metaphor is up to scratch yet. See, by comparing easy mode gamers to caterpillars he's saying they're slow, lazy, fat and (especially since he himself brings up the whole butterfly transformation thing) in some way unfinished.
Those are a few choice examples from the last few pages, I can keep going if you'd like. I am twisting no-one's words, he's doing it all himself.

CritialGaming:
What elitist gatekeeping? How in the world is anyone gatekeeping anything.

This boils down to people not wanting to work for things.

Hi again Critial. First of all:

Pallindromemordnillap:
And since this is, I believe, the third time you've said you're giving up, you'll forgive me if I take your declaration with a pinch of salt and keep checking my watch until you make another reply.

Called it.
Second of all, its gatekeeping because you are setting standards for a brand of media and insisting people not use that media if they cannot reach those standards. Your attitude is one of trying to bar entrance to anyone deemed unworthy. hence gatekeeping.
And again the insistence that its just people not wanting to work for things. You have said yourself you've used easy modes in other games, was that you not wanting to work for things there?

CritialGaming:
Take buying a car for example. Most people would love a very nice car right? A Bentley, Ferrari, Lamborgini, etc, whatever premium car floats your style. But the people who really desire those cars, are usually the people who can't afford them. The owner of my company drives a different 100K+ every month, and when the employees comment about it he just shrugs because to him they are just cars.

Let's say for example you have only $20K to buy a car. For sake of argument, let's pretend you can't purchase older used models and can only buy a brand new car. What would be your options at $20K? Well you could buy a low end car. A Honda Civic, Nissan Versa, things along those lines. But you couldn't even buy a lowest possible end BMW after taxes and fees.

Now take the person driving his new Honda and he would look around and sure would want a BMW right (or any other moderate range car) or hell maybe he was a Porche. What stopping him from getting one? Technically all he has to do to put the work in. Put forth the effort in life to get a better job, go to school, work hard, etc, etc and one day he will absolutely get the car he wants.

Okay, realise I'm splitting up the analogy here but its a little muddled and I need to take it point by point. Here for example, you're admitting that there are different cars set up for people depending on what they can put in. A richer guy (read: guy skilled at Dark Souls) can have the fancier car (Dark Souls on hard mode) put the poorer guy (guy not skilled at Dark Souls) can still get a car that suits him (Dark Souls on easy mode). You're supporting the idea that an easy mode is something that could work.
You're also still saying that people should "Just get better!" without thinking about how they might do that. For example, you state that the person wanting the more expensive car should get a better job but thats easier said than done. What if he works really hard but still loses out to someone because they're boss' nephew? So next time he applies maybe he looks for somewhere where a guy he knows already works, or where he's networked a group of people who are familiar with his work. Even in the real world, you occasionally need a leg-up

CritialGaming:
But why doesn't my boss care about the fancy cars he drives? Because he already has them. To him they are now nothing but cars and not even worth thinking about. The same opinion would be true for the guy working up to buying his first BMW, once he has that car he will feel great. But at some point, it will just be a car to him and maybe he'll be eyeing the next fancier more expensive car to wish for.

We both agree that working up is good, so why don't you think working up from an easier mode is good. And if the guy with the fancier car (Dark Souls hard mode, remember) doesn't care because he's already achieved what he wanted...why should he care about the little guy working his way up? And why should he deny the guy the chance to get a BMW because he doesn't like that he's starting with a Honda?

CritialGaming:
This is the same attitude towards easy modes in video games that don't already have them. Some people want Dark Souls-like games to have easy modes because they don't want to put in the work it would take to earn their way through those games on their own. Why doesn't everyone drive a Ferrari? Why doesn't everyone become a College graduate? Because not everyone wants to do the work. Same principal here.

...or they have a genuine problem with the harder mode and need an assist. You've mentioned that you have no skill at RTS games, what if I started insisting you could be if you just tried because after all I'm pretty good at them so that means no-one should have a problem? What does that help? What does that achieve?

CritialGaming:
Because it's a video game though, people feel that they deserve completion because they bought the game, and that's not the case. You have to earn that completion.

And they will. On a mode that is actually achievable for them. Just because easy Dark Souls would be a walk in the park for you does not mean it would be a walk in the park for everyone

CritialGaming:
But Dark Souls and game like it, are in NO WAY gatekept. There is nothing, NOTHING, stopping anyone from picking up the game and figuring that thing out. Nobody in this thread is trying to keep people away from the game. If anything we want MORE people to overcome the same challenges that we did, because we know how awesome it feels to defeat the game. WE want EVERYONE to have that feeling. And not a watered down version on some easy mode, but the real deal. Those of us who have beaten the game knows that it CAN be beaten by your average person, below average even, it just takes some time and some work. But getting to the end of the game feels just like earning your first nice car. You sit in that seat and you watch the credits roll (or put your hands on that wheel) and you say, "Wow. I did it."

"I'm not gate keeping I just feel people shouldn't enjoy a thing if they don't enjoy it exactly how I do!"
Kind of undermining yourself there

CritialGaming:
An easy mode would rob people of that. The experience was designed in a certain way, and difficulty modes do ruin that experience.

Again to you. An easy mode Dark Souls would seem a ruined experience to you, looking for exactly what you're looking for with exactly your level of skill. Not so for someone who is neither of those thing.

CritialGaming:
Technically yes people can beat the game on the normal hard mode, but that easy mode will be there when things get rough, that temptation to reduce the challenge just for this one fight or this one part it is always there. And it does change the experience for EVERYONE, not just the person who really needs easier experiences.

That's why people who love these games don't want that temptation put in place. If a person can't put in the effort to try and try and try, like we did, then they should play something else because there is no reason that the game should cater to you and you alone. Put in the work, and you CAN win. Or don't but nobody is just going to hand you the key's to a Ferrari.

See, thats you and Kerg both mentioning temptation now so I can't help but feel this is projection. You both seem to be admitting that slipping down to an easy mode to avoid challenge is exactly what you'd do which doesn't exactly help your argument about people needing to just try

CritialGaming:
If you can't afford a Ferrari, don't get mad at the people who can. Don't demand Ferrari make an affordable version, because that affordable version wouldn't be a Ferrari, not really. Just like an easy mode would really be Dark Souls.

We're not mad at the people who can afford a Ferrari. We're mad at the people who can afford a Ferrari and then insist that no other car is worth it and people who buy them are just being lazy because they didn't buy a Ferrari

Phoenixmgs:

hanselthecaretaker:
- Well then we?re back to the ?what?s not difficult for you may indeed be difficult for others?. Are you really going to say just because you think Souls? difficulty is over rated, that anyone who thinks differently is full of it? The difficulty of any game will always be subjective, but that doesn?t mean players should be demanding easy modes from games that were clearly, consciously designed to be played without them; at least in their traditional form.

- The difficulty levels of any game are there because they are unbalanced; otherwise they wouldn?t need them at all. Also, how does playing Souls a certain ?easy? way make it less fun than cheesing/spamming your way through any other game on easy or even medium? At least with Souls, the cheesing is limited to a few enemies or areas where normal tactics may be too risky for inexperienced players. You dismiss the parry/riposte as not being worth the risk for example, but to others it may very well be. Everyone?s play style is different. There really is no right or wrong in Souls games.

-There's plenty of objectivity with regards to how difficult something is like how much time a player has to react to an enemy attack. Obviously, an attack having a lower reaction time is harder to avoid. Souls enemies are slower compared to several other action combat games. The only thing that actually gives Souls any difficulty whatsoever is its checkpoint system. Again, why can't you and Kerg get this (no one is DEMANDING easy modes here) through your heads? You and Kerg keep strawmanning the debate into something it's not.

-Why can't you and Kerg just answer the following question? How is FromSoft (the developer, not made-up demanding or whining gamers) adding in an easy mode because they want to going to ruin your game in anyway? That is the only question. Everything else is beating around the bush and strawmanning.

To answer your ridiculous other questions that have no merit in the debate... Actual GOOD RPGs have classes that are balanced. What balances mages in any RPG is that they are glass cannons dealing massive damage but being squishy as all hell. Yet Demon's Souls, mages are easy mode. No class/playstyle should be easy mode, that means the game is unbalanced in its core foundations. There's probably at least 5 huge "NO-NOs" that Dark Souls 1 does that should have never even made it out of the conceptual stages of any RPG yet are there in the final game like how on at least 2 occasions one can bypass a stat for DPS purposes. You can spam/exploit just about every enemy in Dark Souls 1, just strafing breaks the game; pull an enemy towards you with an arrow, lock-on, raise shield, push left or right, press R1 when you get to its back, and profit. What enemies can't you exploit that way? The riposte in Dark Souls is never worth the risk and thus not worth even learning, at least in Dark Souls 1 and that's someone that loves the Souls series saying that.

- I understand that. Souls isn't designed to be based on twitchy reaction speeds. IMO, it's distilled down to three P's: patience, planning and persistence. If an able bodied/minded gamer has those three things, they should very well be able to make it through the games. It's when you get impatient, impulsive, and easily frustrated that the game becomes difficult. That's the beatuy of its design, in that it teaches people to not be those things, which is a far cry from most (far more) difficult games. Change this philosophy by adding an "easy mode" and you change the game by obfuscating the core tenets. People are free to not like it of course, but that's really beside the point.

- See above, and I could just as easily ask why people can't accept the games as they are? It would eliminate all the seemingly pointless arguing so far in this thread.

- The idea of "balance" is like searching for a dancing unicorn. Nice idea, but intrinsically limiting. You want an example of a balanced game? Pong. Dark Souls largely eschews conventional, formulaic design choices and lets you make a character however you want. Your glass cannon mage sounds boring and done to death. Every Souls tutorial even states that the starting class you choose means very little in the end, and is merely a starting point.

You've posted that same Bloodborne video in quite a few threads now, but of all the complaints people have managed to level at it, the most repeated I've see by far is how limited it feels next to Souls proper. I still enjoy it for sure, but its genius also means something is lost in the process, and that is primarily the concept of player freedom.

Pallindromemordnillap:
snip

Actually the metaphor for the different cars was meant to represent different games. The Farrari being Dark Souls, and the other cars being other games. Meaning that a player who can't play Dark Souls might not be able to play Dark Souls now, but if they put in the work, get the education, then they COULD play Dark Souls.

It was supposed to be about putting in the effort.

And yes my stating the weakness in all of us, Myself and Kerg included, absolutely would dip into Easy mode to get through the game. Because frustration happens to EVERYONE, we are human after. And just because we've beaten Dark Souls, doesn't mean we didn't get stuck time and time again as we got through the game. That's why we feel so strongly that an easy mode ruins the experience. Because we could have just turned the dial down and got through the game whenever it pissed us off, but ultimately when we finally beat that section, we got that amazing rush of knowing we beat that challenge, which is something we wouldn't have gotten if our frustrations let us dip into "easy mode".

Now at the same token I am comparing the game to earning a nice car, because if you put your mind to it, and set that goal in mind, anybody can beat Dark Souls as it is.

The only gatekeeping is being done by a persons unwillingness to deal with the frustration. In which case, they are free to play other games. (Or buy another car)

Part of what made the Souls games so great, is that you can't change the game. The game changes you. It punishes you, but it also drives you to win. It shows you time and time again, with each defeat that you can beat it. Everytime you die on a boss you get closer and closer, and you learn the fight, you make up for your mistakes. It teaches you what it wants from you and rewards you for success. But best of all, it doesn't bend for you, it makes you beat it with it's own rules and the only thing you can do is beat it using those rules against it.

There is no elitism here. I'm sorry you feel it comes off that way. The ultimate goal would be to encourage people to not give up imo. Even if the game is REALLY REALLY fucking hard. Don't give up. If you get frustrated, take a break, cool your jets, come back and try again. Anyone can beat Dark Souls if they just don't give up.

Hell perfect example, was me this weekend. I was playing Nioh and there is a section in the final stage that I spent four hours on, dying over and over and over. I screamed, I raged, I took breaks, I raged and screamed some more.

But I finally did it. I got through the challenge and the rush was awesome. I couldn't stop laughing and cheering that I had done it.

If I could have dropped the difficulty, I never would have felt that way. Both the good and the bad emotions are part of the experience. And frankly, I'll admit, it isn't an experience that everybody will find enjoyable. But that doesn't mean the experience needs to change. Because the experience I had, and the emotions I felt, are the ultimate goal of the game. If it takes that goal away, then all you have left is an empty experience that just goes through the motions.

Now I know what you are going to say already to that. "Players who need easy mode will have that same experience because to them easy is still hard." And you are wrong here. Easy doesn't solve anything here because the experience ultimately is completely different. If the game isn't asking as much from you, then you loose the fundamental experience. Because you aren't dealing with the mechanics, you aren't required to utilize the same skills, you don't even have to approach everything the same way, and as a result you aren't experiencing the same thing.

Going back to the car analogy. Picture two cars. A Prius and a BMW 7 Series. Now do you think driving the Prius is ANYTHING like driving the BMW? I mean sure, two pedals and a wheel, and both cars will get you from point A to point B. But the experience is completely different.

Does that make sense to you? Look even if you took a Fully Loaded BMW with all the bells and whistles, and you took a base model version of that same BMW, you would still have two completely different driving experiences. Just like having a different difficulty experience would change the fundamental feel of a Souls game.

Now there are plenty of games out there, many have those easy modes and that's perfectly fine. Because for most games, the core gameplay loop, the story, and other factors are the core of their experiences and the difficulty sliders are just preferences. But the Souls games experiences come from the difficulty, and you can't change or simplify the difficulty without completely changing the experience.

Phoenixmgs:
If FromSoft wants to include an easy mode and they put one in, you still have your game that you love with your preferred designed completely intact so what does it matter? If you have a problem with that, then you are an elitist asshole.

I think it's funny that the only person in this thread bragging about his video game prowess is calling other people elitist.

Here's a challenge for you. Fight Fume Knight (DS2) as a melee character. All you can do is dodge roll and hit with your weapon. Simple, right? Kill him without summoning another player in under 5 attempts. NPC summons are fine... they actually make the fight much harder. And do it without spending hours beforehand watching videos to memorize his moveset. I bet you can't do it.

Fume Knight = 93% failure rate

For you to say it's easy can only mean one thing. That you think you're better than most Dark Souls players out there.

And that's fine if you really are. And maybe you are? It's possible. But I think the more likely answer is that you are full of shit. Either way, you see people feeling good about themselves for beating Dark Souls, and that burns you up for some reason, and so you want to belittle their accomplishments and sneer at them, and take a big piss in their Cheerios. Like when a kid gets a new bicycle for Christmas, and he's all happy, and then another kid in the neighborhood tells him it's like the crappiest bike ever. Nobody likes that guy. It's really a shitty attitude to have. It's ugly and offputting. You should probably do something about that.

I mean really, dude, you don't want to be like this guy, do you?

Pallindromemordnillap:
snip

To the both of you, it's never too late to change your attitude for the better. And it's never too late to learn to stop being a troll. Nobody likes a troll.

As far as Dark Souls difficulty, I generally agree that the Souls games aren't necessarily difficult mechanically. But the harder fights DO require repetition, to learn the moveset and timing. And I think most people can do it if they just put in the time to learn each fight.

Further, and more important to this discussion, I think that's very intended and an essential part of the design. IMO, it's one of the key pillars of the Souls-like game sub-genre. An easy mode destroys that part of the design, because you don't need to learn the fight through repetition anymore. Imbalance the numbers enough and one can just clumsily muscle through it. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with at least one company on the planet fucking Earth designing a game like that. And I don't understand why no one can support a game like that without getting harassed by sneering shitheads.

I'm going to assume, hansel, that your lack of a response to me confirms that you did in fact have no real response and were just trying stalking tactics. Good to know for the future

CritialGaming:
Actually the metaphor for the different cars was meant to represent different games. The Farrari being Dark Souls, and the other cars being other games. Meaning that a player who can't play Dark Souls might not be able to play Dark Souls now, but if they put in the work, get the education, then they COULD play Dark Souls.

It was supposed to be about putting in the effort.

Which just leads me to restate that if you have no objection to people working their way up then what is your actual objection to an easy mode? People still put in the effort they're just starting from a different place than you. Like starting with a second hand Honda instead of a brand new one

CritialGaming:
And yes my stating the weakness in all of us, Myself and Kerg included, absolutely would dip into Easy mode to get through the game. Because frustration happens to EVERYONE, we are human after. And just because we've beaten Dark Souls, doesn't mean we didn't get stuck time and time again as we got through the game. That's why we feel so strongly that an easy mode ruins the experience. Because we could have just turned the dial down and got through the game whenever it pissed us off, but ultimately when we finally beat that section, we got that amazing rush of knowing we beat that challenge, which is something we wouldn't have gotten if our frustrations let us dip into "easy mode".

See, all this does is prove that you're really just kind of a hypocrite. You're just calling other people weak for the weakness you see in yourself. Denying other people a playable game purely because you think you might abuse the new system is a massive dick move dude

CritialGaming:
Now at the same token I am comparing the game to earning a nice car, because if you put your mind to it, and set that goal in mind, anybody can beat Dark Souls as it is.

No, you beat Dark Souls just be trying. And even then you just admitted you would have used an easy mode if you could which can of invalidates your "just try!" mentality. See, it's this utter lack of putting yourself in someone else's shoes that keeps getting me to call you elitist

CritialGaming:
The only gatekeeping is being done by a persons unwillingness to deal with the frustration. In which case, they are free to play other games. (Or buy another car)

So you make your argument meant here "git gud or git out" then try to insist that no-one is gatekeeping. Really just proving yourself wrong there

CritialGaming:
Part of what made the Souls games so great, is that you can't change the game. The game changes you. It punishes you, but it also drives you to win. It shows you time and time again, with each defeat that you can beat it. Everytime you die on a boss you get closer and closer, and you learn the fight, you make up for your mistakes. It teaches you what it wants from you and rewards you for success. But best of all, it doesn't bend for you, it makes you beat it with it's own rules and the only thing you can do is beat it using those rules against it.

And this changes for someone playing an easy mode how? If anything they get more out of it because then they might switch up to hard mode and do all again with their newfound skill and experience

CritialGaming:
There is no elitism here. I'm sorry you feel it comes off that way. The ultimate goal would be to encourage people to not give up imo. Even if the game is REALLY REALLY fucking hard. Don't give up. If you get frustrated, take a break, cool your jets, come back and try again. Anyone can beat Dark Souls if they just don't give up.

If the ultimate goal is to encourage people not to give up, then why stick with a mode that people will find impossible and be more encouraged to give up?

CritialGaming:
Hell perfect example, was me this weekend. I was playing Nioh and there is a section in the final stage that I spent four hours on, dying over and over and over. I screamed, I raged, I took breaks, I raged and screamed some more.

But I finally did it. I got through the challenge and the rush was awesome. I couldn't stop laughing and cheering that I had done it.

If I could have dropped the difficulty, I never would have felt that way. Both the good and the bad emotions are part of the experience. And frankly, I'll admit, it isn't an experience that everybody will find enjoyable. But that doesn't mean the experience needs to change. Because the experience I had, and the emotions I felt, are the ultimate goal of the game. If it takes that goal away, then all you have left is an empty experience that just goes through the motions.

And again your argument boils down to "If I feel this way everyone must feel this way". Being unable to see past your own viewpoint and calling anyone who has a different opinion entitled is why we keep calling you elitist, you get that right? What if someone just wants to get through the game to experience the story? What if they just drop the difficulty for that one boss but crank it up again for the rest of the game? You're really not thinking your examples through

CritialGaming:
Now I know what you are going to say already to that. "Players who need easy mode will have that same experience because to them easy is still hard." And you are wrong here. Easy doesn't solve anything here because the experience ultimately is completely different. If the game isn't asking as much from you, then you loose the fundamental experience. Because you aren't dealing with the mechanics, you aren't required to utilize the same skills, you don't even have to approach everything the same way, and as a result you aren't experiencing the same thing.

The experience would be different...for you. Not for someone who's been play non easy. You insist that I'm wrong for asserting that but base that argument on mechanics? What would be different? What skills would they be missing out on?

CritialGaming:
Going back to the car analogy. Picture two cars. A Prius and a BMW 7 Series. Now do you think driving the Prius is ANYTHING like driving the BMW? I mean sure, two pedals and a wheel, and both cars will get you from point A to point B. But the experience is completely different.

Does that make sense to you? Look even if you took a Fully Loaded BMW with all the bells and whistles, and you took a base model version of that same BMW, you would still have two completely different driving experiences. Just like having a different difficulty experience would change the fundamental feel of a Souls game.

Okay, and if someone prefers the stripped down BMW? If someone thinks the heated seats are uncomfortable and the parking sensors are annoying? You are trying to insist that your way of doing things is the only way, is the correct way, trying to assert that something subjective is in fact objective. And you're just as wrong as Kerg was when he tried the same thing

CritialGaming:
Now there are plenty of games out there, many have those easy modes and that's perfectly fine. Because for most games, the core gameplay loop, the story, and other factors are the core of their experiences and the difficulty sliders are just preferences. But the Souls games experiences come from the difficulty, and you can't change or simplify the difficulty without completely changing the experience.

It would change your experience. Because you are already familiar with hard mode. Someone who needs an easy mode to compensate for their unfamiliarity with the game isn't going to see it that way. You continue to try and hide behind your opinions as though they are fact

You know Kerg, storming out insisting we're not worth your time isn't a great tactic at the best of times but it's rendered entirely pointless if you're just going to be back a couple of days later. Since we are evidently not cutting into your gaming time too severely I'm going to have to ask you to actually respond to my last set of questions:

Pallindromemordnillap:
A) So after a second time asking you to demonstrate why your argument doesn't boil down to "They are unclean they must not be allowed in this game? you are still unwilling or incapable of doing so. Not exactly a point in your favour, is it?

B) From your perspective they would not change. The easy mode is for other people, you still get your hard mode. Unless when you were talking about the ?temptation of easy mode? luring people in earlier you were in fact talking about yourself. In which case a lot of the insults you?ve been throwing are kind of hypocritical, aren?t they?

C) I think the design of Dark Souls takes itself needlessly seriously given that it is a video game. And I have no objection to the people who play it as a whole, because I suspect they?re like Azure and Ironclash; capable of stating their opinion as merely an opinion without the need to denigrate anyone else. What I take issue with is the people like you who can only feel good if they?re making someone else feel bad. I think you?re an elitist because you keep saying elitist things. If you had merely said your piece we would be having this argument, but you just can?t help but insult other people along the way

D) Like I said, you aren?t simply advocating your opinion. You?re insisting that anyone who doesn?t do exactly what you do is weak and lazy and that them asking for things is entitled. Being an arsehole isn?t going to sell me you?re opinion, it?s just going to get me to see you as an arsehole

E) I have backed up my point with evidence and quotes, and kept my insults solely to the person I?m addressing. Which is more than you?ve done. So if I?m a troll, what does that make you I wonder?
Trying to make it more than? Think it?s pretty obvious I succeeded. Don?t much like it when people don?t buy into your self image do you? Have a bit of trouble handling it when someone points out how self-serving your attitude really is?

Sorry but you've played the "gloss over an argument that is inconvenient to me and hope no-one notices" card a few too many times and I've got to start calling you on it

Kerg3927:
I think it's funny that the only person in this thread bragging about his video game prowess is calling other people elitist.

Point out to me where Phoenix claims that being better at Dark Souls makes him a better person. Point out to me where he calls you lazy for only wanting a hard mode because the real challenge would lie in a Super Hard Mode.

Kerg3927:
Here's a challenge for you. Fight Fume Knight (DS2) as a melee character. All you can do is dodge roll and hit with your weapon. Simple, right? Kill him without summoning another player in under 5 attempts. NPC summons are fine... they actually make the fight much harder. And do it without spending hours beforehand watching videos to memorize his moveset. I bet you can't do it.

Fume Knight = 93% failure rate

For you to say it's easy can only mean one thing. That you think you're better than most Dark Souls players out there.

And that's fine if you really are. And maybe you are? It's possible. But I think the more likely answer is that you are full of shit.

So after pages and pages of insisting this isn't about your ego, your immediate, and indeed only, reaction to someone pointing out they're most likely a better Dark Souls player than you...is the brand them a liar and issue an outright challenge to try and reassert yourself as The Best Guy. Yeah, way to prove this has been entirely about your ego the whole time

Kerg3927:
Either way, you see people feeling good about themselves for beating Dark Souls, and that burns you up for some reason, and so you want to belittle their accomplishments and sneer at them, and take a big piss in their Cheerios. Like when a kid gets a new bicycle for Christmas, and he's all happy, and then another kid in the neighborhood tells him it's like the crappiest bike ever. Nobody likes that guy. It's really a shitty attitude to have. It's ugly and offputting. You should probably do something about that.

You know it's funny because this is exactly what you're doing. You can't the thought of someone going through Dark Souls on easy mode so you leap in with the belittling. Glad you are it's disgusting behaviour, now maybe you could stop doing it

Kerg3927:
To the both of you, it's never too late to change your attitude for the better. And it's never too late to learn to stop being a troll. Nobody likes a troll.

Nah, I'm pretty sure "don't let assholes be assholes" is a pretty good attitude to have. Perhaps you consider taking your own advice sometime?

Kerg3927:
As far as Dark Souls difficulty, I generally agree that the Souls games aren't necessarily difficult mechanically. But the harder fights DO require repetition, to learn the moveset and timing. And I think most people can do it if they just put in the time to learn each fight.

If it's just repetition then easy and hard don't really come into it, and there's even less reason for you to care about an easy mode

Kerg3927:

Further, and more important to this discussion, I think that's very intended and an essential part of the design. IMO, it's one of the key pillars of the Souls-like game sub-genre. An easy mode destroys that part of the design, because you don't need to learn the fight through repetition anymore. Imbalance the numbers enough and one can just clumsily muscle through it. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with at least one company on the planet fucking Earth designing a game like that. And I don't understand why no one can support a game like that without getting harassed by sneering shitheads.

Your argument continues to devolve, going from promoting the challenge to promoting the simple act of repetition. Firstly going to point out this has the same problem as promoting challenge, in that it depends on the player. How often they die and repeat portions of the game depends on their skill and someone needing an easy mode will absolutely still run into those hazards.
Secondly, since when did repetition become a valid thing to champion? If a game asks me to go collect seven wolf pelts or whatever, then asks me to go collect another fourteen when I'm done with that, I generally consider that to be poor design. Simply saying "but the repetition!" is an exceedingly poor defence even from you

Phoenixmgs:

What attack(s) can't be avoided in Bloodborne? Sure staying in a corner with 3 or so enemies attacking isn't good and you probably can't dodge all their attacks since they aren't all attacking at the same time. If you do find yourself in a bad place, it's really easy to get out of it by mashing dodge a couple times and getting to someplace else.

I didn't say they couldn't be dodged. But no attacks can be avoided by merely dodging and relying on i-frames, because you are not invincible while dodging in Bloodborne. If you dodge, and the attacks connects, you can be hit mid-dodge. The direction and timing of the dodge have to be right or it will not work.

There's so much pretension about what the Souls games require of players acting like positioning is anymore important than any other action game or acting like the stamina system makes every move you make critical in success or failure; you have to manage stamina in Vanquish far more than you do in a Souls game for example. Stamina just acts as a DPS limiter for the most part, you dodge/block and attack until your stamina is gone then dodge back out to start the whole procedure again. That's as deep as the games get from a combat mechanics perspective.

I'm not really interested in this wider guff about pretension and Dark Souls. As I said, I'm not even really a Souls player. I'm only interested in the factually inaccurate stuff about Bloodborne.

Can someone please tell me how easy modes are suppose to tempt you? I played Cuphead and just ignored the easy mode because I knew it wasn't the experience I wanted.

Pallindromemordnillap:

See, all this does is prove that you're really just kind of a hypocrite. You're just calling other people weak for the weakness you see in yourself. Denying other people a playable game purely because you think you might abuse the new system is a massive dick move dude

This one statement proves you are projecting because you have no real dog in this argument and you are just fighting back for the sake of it now. You don't know what the hell you are talking about, and you are putting words in my mouth.

I NEVER once called anyone weak or inferior for unskilled play or being unable to get through ANY game. So stop putting that shit in my mouth, I don't like the taste of bullshit and that's all you've spewed for the last six pages.

Yes we all have weakness. We are human and frankly everyone has a breaking point, especially in a difficult game. But that frustration, and that urge to quit is what makes Dark Souls so great, because ultimately you CAN push through it and when you do finally push through that barrier, the rush afterwards is an incredible reward. Which is the ENTIRE point of the game! Putting in an Easy mode circumvents that.

And it's because NOBODY can dip into easy, that EVERYONE plays the same game and has the same exact chances of getting through it. Everyone plays the same mode and can share their stories because we all are on the same playing field, which is ultimately the most fair possible difficulty setting possible right?

The fact that you keep calling this artificial "barrier" a dick move is asinine.

What stops anybody from playing and getting through Dark Souls as it is? Answer me that. Who here is stopping people from enjoying and playing the game? It's not me. It's not Kerg. Lets I checked when you take the game to the counter at a game store they don't make you take a games skills test.

The fact of the matter is the only thing stopping a player from playing Dark Souls is the player themselves.

No, you beat Dark Souls just be trying. And even then you just admitted you would have used an easy mode if you could which can of invalidates your "just try!" mentality. See, it's this utter lack of putting yourself in someone else's shoes that keeps getting me to call you elitist

This doesn't change the fact that I DIDN'T quit. I kept trying and when I finally won, it was a wonderful feeling. The fact that I COULDN'T make life easier, meant that I HAD to deal with it and win the fight as it was present without handicap modifiers. I don't understand why you keep calling that elitist.

I'm assuming you have a pretty decent life. Internet access, video games, a place to live. Do I have the right to call you elitist because you use free time to play video games instead of helping the homeless? You clearly have no sympathy for the homeless if you are playing video games instead of helping the less fortunate. Before you answer this, the answer is fucking no of course not. Such a request is unreasonable for anyone even the most charitable people aren't charitable 100% of the time. It's a ridiculous notion.

And again your argument boils down to "If I feel this way everyone must feel this way". Being unable to see past your own viewpoint and calling anyone who has a different opinion entitled is why we keep calling you elitist, you get that right? What if someone just wants to get through the game to experience the story? What if they just drop the difficulty for that one boss but crank it up again for the rest of the game? You're really not thinking your examples through

Okay, but this isn't the Witcher or Final Fantasy we are talking about. There is no real story in Dark Souls. There's lore, but not really story. You don't get a new piece of the story, or a cut scene for beating 99% of the bosses in the game. So this argument isn't relevant. For someone who talks about being able to see other people's viewpoints, you sure don't seem to have the ability to see ours.

The experience would be different...for you. Not for someone who's been play non easy. You insist that I'm wrong for asserting that but base that argument on mechanics? What would be different? What skills would they be missing out on?

Let's see. To answer this you would have to make a couple of assumptions based on what an "easy" mode would be for Souls. I suppose we can do the most basic thing and just drastically reduce the damage the player takes right? So if you do that and maybe slightly increase the damage the player deals as well, you put most of the game directly in the player's advantage. This assumes that the enemy AI doesn't change and can still be just as aggressive as it is for everyone else.

So what skills would the player lose here?

Well for starters. The player loses the skill of avoidance. When you can face tank many enemy hits before being put into danger you become reckless and overly aggressive on enemies yourself. Allowing you to tank a bosses, hit while punishing the boss through their own attacks. Seeing as very few boss attacks actively knock the player back, this is a sloppy strategy the easy player would be able to use. Not to mention even enemy combo attacks that stun the player, have little reason to be avoided as the player can take the damage, thus allowing them again to be right in the monster's face for punishing.

The player also loses technique and suffers from a reduced fear of exploration. Dark Souls likes to ambush players that blindly run into a new room, or go directly for some loot on the ground. Because the ambushes wouldn't be dangerously punishing or outright kill a player depending on stats, they loose the fear of going for treasures or dealing with new enemies in a room they are unfamiliar with. The loss of technique comes from the fact that button mashing becomes viable when you don't have to worry about avoid as many hits as possible, you don't have to learn how to parry, or hide behind the safety of your shield, because the easy mode itself becomes your shield.

And that's just assuming that the easy mode comes from a mere adjustment of numbers. Nevermind what would happen if enemies stopped using certain attacks, become less aggressive, or anything else that could help reduce the difficultly of the game overall.

Of course these skills might not matter to a player, and that's fine. But at the end of the day why are you playing the game to just button mash through it? There is no other payoff from a Souls game. No story, no cutscenes, no unlocks, no icons, no nothing beyond overcoming the challenge.

Again I am not against easy modes, far from it. But only if those modes make sense, and in a game with nothing but challenge to offer, there is no reason for easy mode in the game. At least not directly. Because many people have stated already there is a LOT you can do to make Souls easier for you. Number one is Co-Op play, where you can follow a more powerful friend around while they beat the game for you. Dark Souls does offer easy modes in a way just based on mechanics, and gameplay styles. Part of the challenge is figuring out what works best for you and makes the game the easiest for you, while still remaining challenging.

Okay, and if someone prefers the stripped down BMW? If someone thinks the heated seats are uncomfortable and the parking sensors are annoying? You are trying to insist that your way of doing things is the only way, is the correct way, trying to assert that something subjective is in fact objective. And you're just as wrong as Kerg was when he tried the same thing

Yeah what if someone doesn't believe in modern medicine? What if someone doesn't believe in using modern technology? Oh wait those people exist. They are called the Amish. And they don't use any of that stuff. But, they also don't go around telling other people to not use or make the things they don't believe in. They don't demand the rest of the world cater to them. They have what they like and they are satisfied with it.

So your point here is invalid and stupid. Because a rational person who can't beat or play Dark Souls, or simply doesn't have the time to try, goes off and plays something else and doesn't complain that he/she never got to play Dark Souls. That's that normal people do. Nobody bitches and complains that Ferrari's are expensive. They get what they like and can play and move on with their life. The world is under no obligation to satisfy anybody.

You know Kerg, storming out insisting we're not worth your time isn't a great tactic at the best of times but it's rendered entirely pointless if you're just going to be back a couple of days later. Since we are evidently not cutting into your gaming time too severely I'm going to have to ask you to actually respond to my last set of questions

Actually I came back in response to someone else. I never came back for you or to answer your nonsense. You jumped back on me. You restarted this little conversation because you can't let it go and would rather sit there and just call me and Kerg asshole elitists. Which by the way, is against the Terms of Service on this forum and the fact that you haven't been called out on it is mindboggling.

erttheking:
Can someone please tell me how easy modes are suppose to tempt you? I played Cuphead and just ignored the easy mode because I knew it wasn't the experience I wanted.

Everyone is different. I personally, am not tempted by Easy modes. With the exception of Halo which touts its "Heroic" mode as 'the way Halo is meant to be played,' I consider Normal the standard and personally don't feel like I've truly experienced a game unless I play it on at least Normal. That being said, I've no problem with Easy being there as an option for those that are less skilled, but still would like to enjoy their purchase. It's entertainment after all; why should entertainment be a painful grind for a lesser-skill player? Because of reasons?

Sticking with the popular example, Dark Souls has a LOT to offer beyond its difficulty: it's lore, its world, its secrets, it's combat, etc.; it's a rich experience beyond just being notoriously hard. A blow from Smough's hammer would be just as intimidating an experience for a player who has the option to scale it back so it doesn't do as much damage as "the way it's meant to be" because the fight (as many in DS) is designed to be bigger than life, so it's an experience in and of itself, not just because it's hard and you have to "git gud" to appreciate it. I struggled on the Gaping Dragon, arguably one of the easiest bosses in the game, because of his body horror design, his size, the epic music; it all culminated in an experience that was intense and intimidating to me; that's GREAT design; I still had to deal damage equal to his total HP to win, but his difficulty wasn't what makes the fight one of my more memorable Dark Souls experiences. So I don't subscribe to the notion that an Easier mode ruins a core experience, at least I don't think it should. If a game, is done right, there's more to be appreciated than overcoming high difficulty; if difficulty is ALL a game offers or the thing that defines it before all else, than I think something was missed in development. Let me ask: would Dark Souls be just as rewarding and memorable an experience it you removed everything between the boss fights and just went from boss fog wall to boss fog wall ala Mike Tyson's Punch Out on NES? No? So why should the boss fights be the barometer or gate as to whether or not a player is "worthy" of a full Dark Souls experience?

Years ago, some friends and I got the notion to go bowling. Several beers and drunken gutter balls later, we requested they put the bumpers up. Yes, 6 drunk adults were bumper bowling. We had a blast. Our scores became irrelevant; none of us felt we were training to become adept bowlers, but we had FUN. Was it the purest form of bowling? Were we out there trying to hook it like the pros? Did any of us bowl a perfect 300? No, no and no, but we paid for a few rounds of bowling for FUN and fun was had. Did we disappoint the guy next to us who brought his own ball and shoes who averages 230? Only when we accidentally bounced a ball into his lane, but other than that, he largely ignored us and enjoyed his time bowling his way on his lane. I feel a video game can only benefit from similar flexibility, and if it's worth it, it invites and entices lesser skilled players who opt for an easier experience to get better and try them 'the way they're supposed to be played' instead of demanding such upfront and shutting down a potential fan after the first dozen one-shot kills from an OP boss.

All that being said, I know few of you have read this far and even fewer opinions have been swayed; I respect the way each of you feel on this issue we've exhaust in multiple threads over the past several weeks and have settled on the more than likely fact that despite our heated debate, things will continue as they have since time immemorial: some games will have easy modes, some won't, and internet forum arguments will continue to be fruitless echo chambers.

CritialGaming:

Phoenixmgs:
This really all started out of a misinterpreted article quoting Miyazaki pondering an easy mode for Souls. Thus, this wasn't started by whining or demanding gamers. Then, the Souls community got all up in arms bitching and whining themselves about ruining their precious games wanting to "gatekeep" out anyone that might like to play on a hypothetical easy mode.

I thought it was about an article on Polygon or Kotaku or one of those sites about how every game should have an easy-mode.

You see? That just goes to show that nobody even knows what the fuck anyone is even talking about anymore.

From what I've seen, it's been the "hardcore" gamers whining about games getting "baby" modes far more than the other way around. This is pretty much the perfect Jimquisition that perfectly encapsulates all my points on the subject. Oh, and it does seem like the interview where Miyazaki said he was considering an easy mode where Souls fans lost their shit and needed the pacifier of it being misinterpreted to stop crying, and a few here are still crying about it.

hanselthecaretaker:
- See above, and I could just as easily ask why people can?t accept the games as they are? It would eliminate all the seemingly pointless arguing so far in this thread.

Watch the Jimquisition in this post and you're right, people can't accept games as they are. The people whining are the ones that can't accept games as they are. Where's this so-called push from lazy gamers wanting easy modes at? It's the hardcore gamers whining about games releasing with easy modes (you know, how the game is) that has caused all the whining.

Kerg3927:

Phoenixmgs:
If FromSoft wants to include an easy mode and they put one in, you still have your game that you love with your preferred designed completely intact so what does it matter? If you have a problem with that, then you are an elitist asshole.

I think it's funny that the only person in this thread bragging about his video game prowess is calling other people elitist.

Here's a challenge for you. Fight Fume Knight (DS2) as a melee character. All you can do is dodge roll and hit with your weapon. Simple, right? Kill him without summoning another player in under 5 attempts. NPC summons are fine... they actually make the fight much harder. And do it without spending hours beforehand watching videos to memorize his moveset. I bet you can't do it.

Fume Knight = 93% failure rate

For you to say it's easy can only mean one thing. That you think you're better than most Dark Souls players out there.

And that's fine if you really are. And maybe you are? It's possible. But I think the more likely answer is that you are full of shit. Either way, you see people feeling good about themselves for beating Dark Souls, and that burns you up for some reason, and so you want to belittle their accomplishments and sneer at them, and take a big piss in their Cheerios. Like when a kid gets a new bicycle for Christmas, and he's all happy, and then another kid in the neighborhood tells him it's like the crappiest bike ever. Nobody likes that guy. It's really a shitty attitude to have. It's ugly and offputting. You should probably do something about that.

I mean really, dude, you don't want to be like this guy, do you?

The Jimquisition in this post perfectly states my stance on this whole "debate". If you don't agree with it, fine; but it does pretty much make you an elitist asshole.

IGN's own video makes the fight look rather standard for a Souls boss fight to me. Dodge through the enemy's attacks taking advantage of the i-frames, get in a few hits, back away, and repeat. You should die at least 3-5 times on Souls-type bosses honestly, it's disappointing when you can beat them on your 1st or 2nd try really.

Video games nowadays are experiences, they are meant to be beaten, even Souls. Just about every game that doesn't get beat by a player is because they just didn't care for the game enough or they got distracted by a more interesting game and just haven't gotten back to that "less good" game that they say they'll eventually finish. After you beat any game or any boss in any game, sure there's a bit of a sense of accomplishment but the biggest take away from it should be that was a fun game or a fun fight. If you're playing a Souls game just for the sense of accomplishment, you should be using that energy to accomplish something actually worth monetary value then. I grew up playing games that were legit accomplishments to beat and several games I never finished because they were that hard including games that are infamous like Battletoads and Bayou Billy (that game just sucked though) to stuff like Daffy Duck, The Lion King, Chip n Dale Rescue Rangers, and so on. I never actually beat SMB1 because I hated the level design on the last level where you have to figure out which pipes to go down through trial and error. The Lion King had the same issue with a cave level. I stopped playing them because those levels weren't fun. I quit FFVI because it wasn't fun. Why play something that isn't fun when I can have fun with SMB3 for like the 500th time or whatever. But anyway, seeing people actually say a Souls game is literally the hardest game they ever played means they haven't played hard games before; I want to give them all Top Gun and challenge them just to land that fucking plane because that's harder than whatever trouble I will have with the Fume Knight.

Silvanus:
I didn't say they couldn't be dodged. But no attacks can be avoided by merely dodging and relying on i-frames, because you are not invincible while dodging in Bloodborne. If you dodge, and the attacks connects, you can be hit mid-dodge. The direction and timing of the dodge have to be right or it will not work.

I'm not really interested in this wider guff about pretension and Dark Souls. As I said, I'm not even really a Souls player. I'm only interested in the factually inaccurate stuff about Bloodborne.

Where is your proof? The Wiki literally says the dodge has i-frames. It either does or it doesn't. I played the game, I know the dodge has i-frames. I showed a video of a player dodging "through" the Cleric Beast's attack, you can't do that without i-frames. The entire dodge animation isn't completely full of i-frames but you can time the dodge properly to literally go through any attack in the game.

Phoenixmgs:
snip

There are articles on both sides of this. But the argument I'm trying to counter is things like:

http://n4g.com/news/2080661/why-all-video-games-should-have-an-easy-mode
https://medium.com/@JoeKllr/every-game-should-have-an-easy-mode-9040ca76247e
http://pureplaystation.com/pure-opinion-why-all-video-games-should-have-an-easy-mode/2017/07/
http://tay.kinja.com/all-video-games-should-have-a-difficulty-option-1753890139
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/01/maybe-all-games-should-have-a-very-easy-mode/

This last one is funny to me: http://www.player.one/cuphead-dark-souls-hard-games-easy-mode-120823

Why Cuphead should have an easy mode? Cuphead literally does have an easy mode you select at the start of a mission. It makes me shake my head because no matter what side of the spectrum you are on, it shows that people don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Dark Souls has an "easy" mode. It gives you tools to make the game as easy as you want, without changing the core difficulty setting. From Co-Op, to the way to spec and equip your character, there are ways to make the game less challenging without tampering with the experience.

What Souls doesn't need, is and outright selector that you pick and universally nerf the game you are about to play through.

And it does go to your point. Why can't we let games be the games they are. Some games will be hard for some people and some games wont. Why does there need to be a artificial standard?

I mean I've made this point before and everyone fucking ignored it. Pallindromemordnillap even pointed out that easy mode for some will still be too hard. Which means that adding easy modes isn't the answer because it doesn't actually solve the issue peoplehave of getting through a game. So what's the solution?

People have even reported on Forums that Wolfenstein 2 on Very easy is still really hard in random places. Which is either a fault of the core design, or the people playing are missing key points in a given mission which is making that part hard for them regardless of difficulty. That could be the fault of the game's design, but it does point out a major flaw of difficulty modes in that they don't actually solve the challenge issue.

And I don't think removing the challenge is the right answer either. If you add the ability to skip content, or literally add a god mode, I don't think you do any players a service. While I don't mind if cheat codes or whatever are introduced, I do think that there must be a better way.

That way isn't going to come from developers, it has to come from the PLAYERS. Players have to have the maturity to understand their own tastes and limitations. If you aren't good at RTS, or competitive shooters, it is the responsibility of the PLAYER to understand that maybe Starcraft or Overwatch isn't the game for them and instead of demanding that these games add modes that cater to them, they move on to other games that are more their speed like RPG's, or brawlers, or platformers, or whatever else might float that player's boat.

We are spoiled for choice. There are shitloads of games coming out every single year, and it just doesn't make sense to me that people would waste their time going, "I wanna play this game but it's too easy/hard, so they need to change it so i can play it."

Just play something else. Let games be games and let people enjoy the games they want to enjoy.

If you don't enjoy Dark Souls because it's too hard, play something else. Don't enjoy a game because it's too easy, go play something else. Why is it such a hard concept to grasp?

CritialGaming:

Okay, but this isn't the Witcher or Final Fantasy we are talking about. There is no real story in Dark Souls. There's lore, but not really story. You don't get a new piece of the story, or a cut scene for beating 99% of the bosses in the game.

Eh, I'd debate that assertion (as I did in my previous post.) Dark Souls may not tell a traditional story via blatant exposition and cutscenes, but it certainly DOES have a story and elements to be enjoyed beyond just overcoming difficulty. After O&S, the game pretty much ceases to be as overtly difficult, but it doesn't cease to be immersive, engaging and fun which lends itself to the idea the enjoyment isn't solely about the difficulty. Why is NG+ even a thing if the game isn't about more than just being hard? You're pretty much OP for half of NG+, but making different choices, using different weapons, trying new armors and perfecting the various types of combat are allures enough to keep players coming back, not just waiting until the Four Kings before NG+ stats are even remotely challenged.

And instead of saying "Easy" mode, maybe the other side of the argument (from either given stance) might be better understood if we called it "Easier" mode. A lot of the anti-Easy people seem to think "Easy" means a player is basically invincible and enemies and bosses would be made out of wet rice paper. Not necessarily; scaling down damage taken and scaling up damage given would be easy to do and wouldn't have to be so extreme as to make the fundamental mechanics of combat obsolete. Consider Easier mode could scale the damage dealt down/up by a third; a person who opts for Easier has lesser skills and will still likely be subjected to punishment more often than a skilled player; Easier need only afford them more chances to learn but still require that they dodge, block and time their attacks accordingly which does NOT allow for a button-mashing, addle-brained "gimme" combat; what kills a Normal player in 3 hits kills an Easier player in 5 and would NOT disintegrate the fundaments of Dark Souls' existence. Easier can have the same rules, but lesser skills are forgiven more readily (not entirely) and who knows, once someone gets the timing down on Easier (which again is the same timing required of Normal,) maybe a graduation to Normal is in warranted? Personal example, when I first fought Ornstein and Smough, I summoned Solaire and killed Ornstein first. Same on NG+. But on NG+2, I was so loving the game OVERALL, I wanted to be able to say I actually WAS "gud" and opted to do the fight solo killing Ornstein last. It took several attempts, but I finally pulled it off. Point being, Dark Souls is such a good game, it made me want to best it at its best, but it didn't do so by stubbornly denying me any chance to overcome a its significant hurdles. I had the cop out summons as an [i]option, but despite having beat the battle twice using "easy mode," I wanted to prove myself [i]to myself and do it the "right" way; I would never have felt that way had my experience ended at O&S the first time as it easily could have. I'd have never have bought the DLC (nevermind I'd have never have had been able to even GET to it) without the breathing room afforded me that didn't deny me the rest of my game. Yes, the summons are a part of the game as it stands, I get it, but I also know that even with summons, the fight can still be hard for newer players, nevermind those with lesser skill; I don't think that means "too bad; Dark Souls just isn't for them; go play something else." Why feel that way when a reaonable option to make it easier only invites more people to appreciate the game as much as we "Normies" do? With that little concession, Dark Souls gained a life-long fan and could gain many more with increased flexibility that need not alter the game in any game-breaking way.

Plus, we always have Achievements/Trophies to vet out those who take an Easier road, drug Dark Souls and suffocate it with a pillow in its sleep from those who play on Normal and beat Dark Souls to death using their bare fists, so there are ways to differentiate/reward besting the "true" experience from a perceived lesser one if that's all the delineation required.

Xprimentyl:

And instead of saying ?Easy? mode, maybe the other side of the argument (from either given stance) might be better understood if we called it ?Easier? mode. A lot of the anti-Easy people seem to think ?Easy? means a player is basically invincible and enemies and bosses would be made out of wet rice paper. Not necessarily; scaling down damage taken and scaling up damage given would be easy to do and wouldn?t have to be so extreme as to make the fundamental mechanics of combat obsolete. Consider Easier mode could scale the damage dealt down/up by a third; a person who opts for Easier has lesser skills and will still likely be subjected to punishment more often than a skilled player; Easier need only afford them more chances to learn but still require that they dodge, block and time their attacks accordingly which does NOT allow for a button-mashing, addle-brained ?gimme? combat; what kills a Normal player in 3 hits kills an Easier player in 5 and would NOT disintegrate the fundaments of Dark Souls? existence. Easier can have the same rules, but lesser skills are forgiven more readily (not entirely) and who knows, once someone gets the timing down on Easier (which again is the same timing required of Normal,) maybe a graduation to Normal is in warranted? Personal example, when I first fought Ornstein and Smough, I summoned Solaire and killed Ornstein first. Same on NG+. But on NG+2, I was so loving the game OVERALL, I wanted to be able to say I actually WAS ?gud? and opted to do the fight solo killing Ornstein last. It took several attempts, but I finally pulled it off. Point being, Dark Souls is such a good game, it made me want to best it at its best, but it didn?t do so by stubbornly denying me any chance to overcome a its significant hurdles. I had the cop out summons as an [i]option, but despite having beat the battle twice using ?easy mode,? I wanted to prove myself [i]to myself and do it the ?right? way; I would never have felt that way had my experience ended at O&S the first time as it easily could have. I?d have never have bought the DLC (nevermind I?d have never have had been able to even GET to it) without the breathing room afforded me that didn?t deny me the rest of my game. Yes, the summons are a part of the game as it stands, I get it, but I also know that even with summons, the fight can still be hard for newer players, nevermind those with lesser skill; I don?t think that means ?too bad; Dark Souls just isn?t for them; go play something else.? Why feel that way when a reaonable option to make it easier only invites more people to appreciate the game as much as we ?Normies? do? With that little concession, Dark Souls gained a life-long fan and could gain many more with increased flexibility that need not alter the game in any game-breaking way.

The problem that was pointed out is that, if you merely adjust numbers, how much do you need? Does it actually make the bosses easy enough? There are always going to be people that complain that it's too hard because they still get hit with one-shot abilities. Or does easy remove those attacks from the pool.

That's the rub. It's easy to say just tweak the numbers, but it's much more than numbers, it's attacks and attack patterns. Enemy tell animations have to be changed and altered to create an easy mode. Because even if you nerf the damage output, you still have to change the one-shot mechanics, you have to give the easier mode players more opportunities to react to attacks as well.

And then you have to find a level that satisfies players who "need" (which I don't believe anyone needs easy mode, they just want it and that's a different thing altogether) it. Because if there even a handful of new players trying Souls because of the new easy mode and it still remains too hard for them, then they'll complain still and what then? Uber easy mode? Auto-pilot mode? At some point there has to be a cut-off where the developer says, "Look this is the game and this is the challenge we are giving you. Take it or leave it but we cannot continue to modify it to cater to everyone."

Pallindromemordnillap:
I'm going to assume, hansel, that your lack of a response to me confirms that you did in fact have no real response and were just trying stalking tactics. Good to know for the future

*Channels Christopher Walken* Ohhh woweeewowwowwww!!

You really are a special breed of bully. I really don't think you care half as much about the plight of gamers needing/wanting easy modes as you do being "right" on the internet. My lack of response boils down to the fact that after a dozen pages, you clearly will only give a damn about mine or anyone else's viewpoint if it coincides with your own. It's nauseating, so why should anyone really be compelled to continue? Including my own, most of the viewpoints you've taken issue with have been repeated, rephrased, or reiterated on every page and it has accomplished nothing, because of the above.

Have you ever heard the saying an argument lacking logic makes up for it in volume? Well, give yourself a pat on the back in this regard, because you've clearly been proving the notion page after page. I must admit I'm a bit envious though, as I'd love to have as much time as you seem to for verbal volleyball on the interwebs. Carry on if you'd like, but we're simply best off agreeing to disagree here, since it's become incredibly clear we'd both be foolish not to.

CritialGaming:

The problem that was pointed out is that, if you merely adjust numbers, how much do you need? Does it actually make the bosses easy enough? There are always going to be people that complain that it's too hard because they still get hit with one-shot abilities. Or does easy remove those attacks from the pool.

That's the rub. It's easy to say just tweak the numbers, but it's much more than numbers, it's attacks and attack patterns. Enemy tell animations have to be changed and altered to create an easy mode. Because even if you nerf the damage output, you still have to change the one-shot mechanics, you have to give the easier mode players more opportunities to react to attacks as well.

And then you have to find a level that satisfies players who "need" (which I don't believe anyone needs easy mode, they just want it and that's a different thing altogether) it. Because if there even a handful of new players trying Souls because of the new easy mode and it still remains too hard for them, then they'll complain still and what then? Uber easy mode? Auto-pilot mode? At some point there has to be a cut-off where the developer says, "Look this is the game and this is the challenge we are giving you. Take it or leave it but we cannot continue to modify it to cater to everyone."

That's the thing, we don't know how much a nerf is necessary, but some (which doesn't exists at all now) wouldn't hurt anyone; it can only serve to invite a larger base of appreciators. You need not nerf attacks or attack patterns, just give those playing on an Easier option more chances; the extreme worse (nerfing until it's no longer ANY challenge) need not be the assumption, especially given how much they love patching games after launch anyways!

Seriously, though, the bosses/enemy behavior can be exactly the same, just slightly less punishing than they are on Normal (third as much? Half?) The challenge in learning the patterns and how to avoid attacks remains the same, but "Easier" would only be more forgiving. I'm not the greatest gamer, but I know walking into the O&S's arena only to have Orny glide across the room as soon as I enter and take down half my health was pretty discouraging, and as everyone is different (i.e.: some less tolerant of stress and frustration than others, others moreso,) I can see that kind of boss behavior leading someone who really may not want to give up to do so. But If that same attack only takes a third of their health, the game can be less discouraging/more possible for that same player. I don't know about you, but I didn't learn the bosses/enemies from my deaths; I learned them from my encounters with them. I learned more about Artorias engaging him in battle than the 3 minute walk TO him from the bonfire; if someone needs a little more life/time in that arena to learn the same lessons that apply on higher difficulties and ultimately enjoy themselves and their game, fine. I don't expect they'll have the same sense of accomplishment as I enjoy (or if that even matters to them,) but if it allows them to see beyond a soul-crushing brick wall in a game they may have been enjoying up to that point, I'm happy for them, and maybe once they get comfortable, they jump up to Normal for a purer experience. I know of tons of games I beat on Normal before tackling on Hard; I see no difference in a jump from Easy to Normal.

We can agree that an Easy might still be too difficulty for some, and in that case, I imagine those gamers should concede defeat and ask for nothing more, so attrition would take care of that lot (at least there was an option,) but that doesn't negate the potential benefit for those it might help and the fact that it changes nothing for everyone else. Charity was cited (if pointedly) as an example before: I can't give a homeless guy $1,000, but I can certainly afford him $5; the former doesn't mean the latter wouldn't be helpful or appreciated and ultimately a moot exercise. I'm not suggesting we "modify" the game to cater to everyone; that's suggesting we make the bosses easier for everyone by default which DOES fundamentally change the game and is NOT welcome; I'm suggesting there are ways to add TO the game options that allow more people to enjoy them without require out that box that they're as good as everyone else.

Xprimentyl:
.

We can agree that an Easy might still be too difficulty for some, and in that case, I imagine those gamers should concede defeat and ask for nothing more, so attrition would take care of that lot (at least there was an option,) but that doesn?t negate the potential benefit for those it might help and the fact that it changes nothing for everyone else. Charity was cited (if pointedly) as an example before: I can?t give a homeless guy $1,000, but I can certainly afford him $5; the former doesn?t mean the latter wouldn?t be helpful or appreciated and ultimately a moot exercise. I?m not suggesting we ?modify? the game to cater to everyone; that?s suggesting we make the bosses easier for everyone by default which DOES fundamentally change the game and is NOT welcome; I?m suggesting there are ways to add TO the game options that allow more people to enjoy them without require out that box that they?re as good as everyone else.

To which I argue that Dark Souls already has these game options. Play with a friend, spec you character to be a tank, or a high damage archer or mage to stay out of the way of dangerous attacks. The game already has options that make for a much easier experience without having to flat out change the game's core balance.

So really what does adding an easy mode to dark souls do? The answer is clearly nothing. Because easy-mode already exists it's called summon two friends and mob the shit outta the entire game.

CritialGaming:

Xprimentyl:
.

We can agree that an Easy might still be too difficulty for some, and in that case, I imagine those gamers should concede defeat and ask for nothing more, so attrition would take care of that lot (at least there was an option,) but that doesn?t negate the potential benefit for those it might help and the fact that it changes nothing for everyone else. Charity was cited (if pointedly) as an example before: I can?t give a homeless guy $1,000, but I can certainly afford him $5; the former doesn?t mean the latter wouldn?t be helpful or appreciated and ultimately a moot exercise. I?m not suggesting we ?modify? the game to cater to everyone; that?s suggesting we make the bosses easier for everyone by default which DOES fundamentally change the game and is NOT welcome; I?m suggesting there are ways to add TO the game options that allow more people to enjoy them without require out that box that they?re as good as everyone else.

To which I argue that Dark Souls already has these game options. Play with a friend, spec you character to be a tank, or a high damage archer or mage to stay out of the way of dangerous attacks. The game already has options that make for a much easier experience without having to flat out change the game's core balance.

So really what does adding an easy mode to dark souls do? The answer is clearly nothing. Because easy-mode already exists it's called summon two friends and mob the shit outta the entire game.

Actually, summons make the bosses harder; they get more HP. And using summons isn't teaching the lessons you suggest anyone with the grit to endure should be able to learn (which I'd argue is but one area where Dark Souls shines;) it's allowing someone else do the heavy lifting while one learns nothing themselves or best case, allows one to spam cheap shots (which I think we can agree is NOT Dark Souls) while someone else plays a competent distraction. Also, this is nitpicking, but without an Internet connection, non-NPC summons aren't an option, and NPC summons aren't available for every boss fight, so that built-in easy mode goes away for a lot of fights. At least with an option to nerf damage slightly, someone can learn the fundamental Dark Souls experience. As far as how much to nerf, I'd trust the developer who determined how much damage output was good enough on Normal difficulty to find that balance on an Easier difficulty; I don't think it'd be a "back to the drawing board, delay the game 6 months" situation.

It's not fair to suggest in-game mechanics are a built-in easy mode either (spec-ing stats to tank, etc.) that just skirts the issue; a shooter doesn't have a built-in easy mode simply because it has ammo drops and replenishing health; an RTS doesn't have a built-in easy mode just because you can farm resources to fortify your forces. Obviously, the idea is that despite the opportunities to use a game's rules as intended, the game can [i]still[i/] present a sizeable challenge. Trust me, the majority of the deaths I experienced in Dark Souls were NOT because I was spec'd incorrectly; it was because I rolled when I should have blocked, tried to heal with an enemy four steps away or finally got to a phase in a boss fight when their move set changed and I didn't see the one-hitter coming in from the left. An Easy mode allows those same lessons to be learned, but without being so brutally punishing.

Again, I don't expect to change your mind; you're clearly pretty passionate about your stance, and that's fine; I'm just offering there are some things you might be broadly assuming an Easy mode would entail and/or that Dark Souls' only offering is its tough-as-nails difficulty to which I'd argue Easy need not be a "sea change" to the core DS experience and/or difficulty is only one part of a Souls experience, the extent to which the latter is true being largely subjective.

Xprimentyl:

Actually, summons make the bosses harder; they get more HP. And using summons isn?t teaching the lessons you suggest anyone with the grit to endure should be able to learn (which I?d argue is but one area where Dark Souls shines;) it?s allowing someone else do the heavy lifting while one learns nothing themselves or best case, allows one to spam cheap shots (which I think we can agree is NOT Dark Souls) while someone else plays a competent distraction.

So in my post above I explained this very reason as to why I didn't like an easy mode for Souls as it does change the experience as well as do nothing to teach people to play on the "normal/hard" difficulty.

I'll quote it for you here: "Let's see. To answer this you would have to make a couple of assumptions based on what an "easy" mode would be for Souls. I suppose we can do the most basic thing and just drastically reduce the damage the player takes right? So if you do that and maybe slightly increase the damage the player deals as well, you put most of the game directly in the player's advantage. This assumes that the enemy AI doesn't change and can still be just as aggressive as it is for everyone else.

So what skills would the player lose here?

Well for starters. The player loses the skill of avoidance. When you can face tank many enemy hits before being put into danger you become reckless and overly aggressive on enemies yourself. Allowing you to tank a bosses, hit while punishing the boss through their own attacks. Seeing as very few boss attacks actively knock the player back, this is a sloppy strategy the easy player would be able to use. Not to mention even enemy combo attacks that stun the player, have little reason to be avoided as the player can take the damage, thus allowing them again to be right in the monster's face for punishing.

The player also loses technique and suffers from a reduced fear of exploration. Dark Souls likes to ambush players that blindly run into a new room, or go directly for some loot on the ground. Because the ambushes wouldn't be dangerously punishing or outright kill a player depending on stats, they loose the fear of going for treasures or dealing with new enemies in a room they are unfamiliar with. The loss of technique comes from the fact that button mashing becomes viable when you don't have to worry about avoid as many hits as possible, you don't have to learn how to parry, or hide behind the safety of your shield, because the easy mode itself becomes your shield."

You see that in my example here, even the mere reduction of damage output numbers changes the whole mentality and approach a player can have and thus reenforces habits that would hinder their experience should they try to step up in difficulty later. When the enemy attacks are less dangerous, you naturally stop being afraid of them, and less worried about blocking or avoiding them when you know you can take the hit and ultimately deal more damage to the boss or enemy in the meantime. However you and I both know that a playstyle like that will never work in the normal game.

It's really easy for people to say that nothing of the experience of the game is lost by merely making an easier version, but that's just not true.

Again I'm only talking about the Souls-like games here. For 99% of games out there, difficulty modes are fine and they work very well. There is a fundamental reason why the souls games do not have such things.

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