Why primitive, older graphics are better than modern graphics.

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ctrl+f

"dwarf fortress"

page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

No hits.

Seriously, people?

OP is correct. Dwarf Fortress, the most immersive, complex, detailed, rich game I know of uses entirely ASCII graphics. Ok, technically extended ANSI, but you get the point. I can't really describe it, go to the bay12 forums or better yet, stock up on food, grab the wiki, and download and play it yourself (it's free).

It's quite simple. The less detail is spelled out for you visually, the more you fill in mentally. Like the OP said, abstract graphics lead to higher immersion than complex graphics. It's true, and I really don't see what there is to argue about, although apparently we're fighting over what genre is better now. I'll just say Dwarf Fortress, since it transcends genre (and is really its own genre at this point).

Aeonknight:

kingthrall:

Aeonknight:

You're comparing the depth of your old RTS to the graphical fidelity of say... an FPS. You may as well compare apples to oranges because your silly little game has no relevance to the arguement the OP is making.

A game can be complex without having to have shit graphics. Also I'm pretty sure I could throw some #'s from my MMO out to beat out your "complexity" of your RTS but I really don't want to get into a fanboy war over a flawed statement.

BAHAHAHHA this is hilarious an MMO, probably the least complex gaming genre. Games that make you farm, sell fictitious weapons online and have committed some of the stupidest people in the world to commit suicide over characters being hacked like WOW. My god man you really do know how to dig yourself in a grave here! It doesnt matter if the game is different with the comparison I was going to make, as it would still show the amount of effort committed on either side based on that genre. Then again it would be based fairly low being a MMO.

They should really sticky this because your kidding yourself about MMO's.

Aww that's adorable, someone thinks that by oversimplifying the gameplay of a genre that it demonstrates a lack of complexity. I can do that too. Know what your RTS consists of?

Click. Click. Click. Maybe using the keypad if you're pro!

/sarcasm. Come back when you have an actual arguement rather than use the OP's flawed logic to take a stab at genre's you don't like.


This is your deep, highly complex game? Now I know you're trolling. Shouldn't have bothered responding to you in the first place.

1. your an ignoramus because you obviously judge games on graphics, the game has so much mechanics including if you actually bothered to view that video the archers shooting properly, not homing missile arrows. They veteran up with experience just like most the units. That said the dwarf you see shoots bottles, some randomly snuff out. I bet you dont get that kind of randomness in your over-rated MMO games where at critical points in the game you need to fire a spell for example and it fails randomly.

2. click click click, its called micro and if you knew how to do it you wouldn't be talking rubbish to me, presets on this game are here, but in melle fights you need to indivualy click for 2 on 1 fighting in a micro battle. Its not like your autocast spells and sloppy warrior feats that you click and watch the sequence pan out while you sip your hot beverage gloating how great you are.

3. Talk about click click clicking, what about Mining gold, fishing for hours on end for that extra loin cloth padding of elemental resistance. Farming its called ever hear of it you hypocrite

kingthrall:

Aeonknight:

kingthrall:

BAHAHAHHA this is hilarious an MMO, probably the least complex gaming genre. Games that make you farm, sell fictitious weapons online and have committed some of the stupidest people in the world to commit suicide over characters being hacked like WOW. My god man you really do know how to dig yourself in a grave here! It doesnt matter if the game is different with the comparison I was going to make, as it would still show the amount of effort committed on either side based on that genre. Then again it would be based fairly low being a MMO.

They should really sticky this because your kidding yourself about MMO's.

Aww that's adorable, someone thinks that by oversimplifying the gameplay of a genre that it demonstrates a lack of complexity. I can do that too. Know what your RTS consists of?

Click. Click. Click. Maybe using the keypad if you're pro!

/sarcasm. Come back when you have an actual arguement rather than use the OP's flawed logic to take a stab at genre's you don't like.


This is your deep, highly complex game? Now I know you're trolling. Shouldn't have bothered responding to you in the first place.

1. your an ignoramus because you obviously judge games on graphics, the game has so much mechanics including if you actually bothered to view that video the archers shooting properly, not homing missile arrows. They veteran up with experience just like most the units. That said the dwarf you see shoots bottles, some randomly snuff out. I bet you dont get that kind of randomness in your over-rated MMO games where at critical points in the game you need to fire a spell for example and it fails randomly.

2. click click click, its called micro and if you knew how to do it you wouldn't be talking rubbish to me, presets on this game are here, but in melle fights you need to indivualy click for 2 on 1 fighting in a micro battle. Its not like your autocast spells and sloppy warrior feats that you click and watch the sequence pan out while you sip your hot beverage gloating how great you are.

3. Talk about click click clicking, what about Mining gold, fishing for hours on end for that extra loin cloth padding of elemental resistance. Farming its called ever hear of it you hypocrite

Ignoramous? funny, could've swore that said idiot a few minutes ago. And you even added the hypocrite line. Nice ninja edit.

Too bad you're still wrong. Favorite game happens to be Chrono Trigger from the SNES days. And personally I'm glad the fan-made remake with 3D graphics got the cease and desist from Square Enix, because the sprites will always be the definitive version.

As for you trying to turn my click click jab back on me, nice try but I haven't touched a mouse in years to play my game. Maybe if you knew a thing or 2 about MMO's you might be able to argue with me, but why actually know what you're talking about when you can make sweeping generalizations, right?

If you bothered to read any of the posts made up to this point, people have said that just because a game has more than 8 bit graphics doesn't mean it lacks imagination, or complexity, or anything that the games from the "good ol days" had. A bad developer is the one that falls into the trap of putting all of their resources into graphics and forgetting about the rest of the game. That is the only instance when the OP's logic is sound. But it's hardly a concrete rule. And here you are parading his flawed opinion around like it's absolute truth because you play Myth II.

Like I said, come back when you have an actual arguement.

Quaidis:
I've been worried about the creativity in today's youth. People are getting dumber as a whole and I know many kids who no longer want to think for themselves. If I hand a kid today a game from forever ago, they get confused, can't think themselves into the game, and put it down for something more shiney and pretty.

Personally, I miss the 'retro' look of 8 and 16 bit games. If they made a jrpg for the DS with a fresh story and the 16 bit look, I'd snatch it up.

But that's me. Games today normally pander to kids today. And these kids want shiny and pretty, and dumbed down easy.

Edit - I also miss the 90's. Everything went to this peak of extreme awesome in the 90's. It was even better than the 70's and 80's. 2000's went uphill in some categories and completely sacrificed others, making it less cool as a whole.

Edit 2 - I hate texting.

if you give him an old school adventure he will be confused as shit. and so will you.
combine cheese with socks and stick to make a harpoon?
yes, that kind of logic was often found in these old jewels.

and

Personally, I miss the 'retro' look of 8 and 16 bit games. If they made a jrpg for the DS with a fresh story and the 16 bit look, I'd snatch it up.

are you living under a rock have you outed yourself as a hermit?
or have you been actively ignoring the games that came out?

most recent example
image

rhizhim:

are you living under a rockhave you outed yourself as a hermit?
or have y<ou been actively ignoring the games that came out?

most recent example
image

That game is the shit and i would recommend it to everyone who like good games.

Blood Brain Barrier:

Vault101:

Blood Brain Barrier:
Is this just too far over people's heads? Maybe I should post a "why Obsidian is better than Bioware thread" or "why JRPGs suck"

"people arnt agreeing with me! obviously they just dont get it!!"

More like "people aren't replying, why?". That's what happens when you post a slab of advanced calculus formulas on a forum, so I figured....

Don't count to three and pretend it's calculus.

Aeonknight:

kingthrall:

Aeonknight:

Aww that's adorable, someone thinks that by oversimplifying the gameplay of a genre that it demonstrates a lack of complexity. I can do that too. Know what your RTS consists of?

Click. Click. Click. Maybe using the keypad if you're pro!

/sarcasm. Come back when you have an actual arguement rather than use the OP's flawed logic to take a stab at genre's you don't like.


This is your deep, highly complex game? Now I know you're trolling. Shouldn't have bothered responding to you in the first place.

1. your an ignoramus because you obviously judge games on graphics, the game has so much mechanics including if you actually bothered to view that video the archers shooting properly, not homing missile arrows. They veteran up with experience just like most the units. That said the dwarf you see shoots bottles, some randomly snuff out. I bet you dont get that kind of randomness in your over-rated MMO games where at critical points in the game you need to fire a spell for example and it fails randomly.

2. click click click, its called micro and if you knew how to do it you wouldn't be talking rubbish to me, presets on this game are here, but in melle fights you need to indivualy click for 2 on 1 fighting in a micro battle. Its not like your autocast spells and sloppy warrior feats that you click and watch the sequence pan out while you sip your hot beverage gloating how great you are.

3. Talk about click click clicking, what about Mining gold, fishing for hours on end for that extra loin cloth padding of elemental resistance. Farming its called ever hear of it you hypocrite

Ignoramous? funny, could've swore that said idiot a few minutes ago. And you even added the hypocrite line. Nice ninja edit.

Too bad you're still wrong. Favorite game happens to be Chrono Trigger from the SNES days. And personally I'm glad the fan-made remake with 3D graphics got the cease and desist from Square Enix, because the sprites will always be the definitive version.

As for you trying to turn my click click jab back on me, nice try but I haven't touched a mouse in years to play my game. Maybe if you knew a thing or 2 about MMO's you might be able to argue with me, but why actually know what you're talking about when you can make sweeping generalizations, right?

If you bothered to read any of the posts made up to this point, people have said that just because a game has more than 8 bit graphics doesn't mean it lacks imagination, or complexity, or anything that the games from the "good ol days" had. A bad developer is the one that falls into the trap of putting all of their resources into graphics and forgetting about the rest of the game. That is the only instance when the OP's logic is sound. But it's hardly a concrete rule. And here you are parading his flawed opinion around like it's absolute truth because you play Myth II.

Like I said, come back when you have an actual arguement.

Ok lets start by some new games shall we, by going through a few genres

FPS

Call of Duty- Typical end of world evil terrorists, communists never bad Americans, maybe the odd single traitor to take over America but no evil president wanting to commit genocide as something different for example.

RPG

Dragon Age- Typical Lord of the Rings style, evil armies come back from the shadows and the dragon representing the dark lord sauron in all its symmetrical glory. All human/oid races are dwindling in power with all seperate problems and need to form the old alliance.

Starcraft 2, stratergy

Kept to the story granted and I enjoyed this a lot, however typical unknown evil peril will appear as the 4th ancient evil race and all the separate races will have to combine to fight the phantom menace "rings a bell with dragon age on so many levels"

As for Chrono Trigger, Its probably the only animae looking game ive ever played right through to the end. Wasnt a top favourite but I can say it definitely must be good for me to play through something with that kind of feel to it. Usually games like that remind me of pokemon on the gameboy color.

If you have not touched a mouse in years, why the hell are you even in this thread because 90% of older games use mouses and you accuse me of generalising when you just now admitted you cant even compare squat since you obviously didnt re-play any older games for a base for comparison. Just dodgy consoles on the sega and commodore 64 perhaps.

P.S I only edited because I dont want to have to put up with Admins telling me off for getting nasty to a ten year old who thinks he is even on my level. I mean you think attempt to argue with me donesn't even have a basis to argue from now that you just said you never use mice in ages.

I look at games like Zork Grand inquistor, The neverhood, Black and white with brilliant original stories and then you come across something like Mass effect with the same old end of the world ploy. I will only admit there are glimmers and few holes of light from games I have played such as the Witcher and Wargame European Escalation. However its like fishing in a pond full of algae trying to get a decent sized fish.

kingthrall:
snip

If I'm the 10 year old, how come I'm not the one resorting to petty insults? Food for thought.

When I say I haven't touched a mouse in years, I was refering to my particular MMO. Of course I use a mouse to play different games, but this one happens to be in that 10% you mentioned. And that point was only to refute your little "herp derp you click click click to farm for loincloths hypocrite!" remark. Way to take it out of context.

And what makes you think you can judge entire genre's on the merit of one game? No single game is capable of representing the thousands of others that exist in any particular genre. Using Call of Duty, a mainstream title to represent any/all audiences, including niche ones? Are you fucking high?

Your answer to FPS's all being "shoot tha terrorist!": Half Life 2. Immersive, decent story, definately not typical, and still has comparable graphics to the standards of today.

Your answer to all RPG's being LOTR clones? Dark Souls. Immersive as hell, a story that you actually have to look for yourself, good graphics.

So by all means, keep those nostalgia goggles duct taped to your pretty little head. If playing ancient games gives you immersion, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But try actually playing what you're trying to stereotype next time, otherwise expect to get called out on it.

rhizhim:

Quaidis:
I've been worried about the creativity in today's youth. People are getting dumber as a whole and I know many kids who no longer want to think for themselves. If I hand a kid today a game from forever ago, they get confused, can't think themselves into the game, and put it down for something more shiney and pretty.

Personally, I miss the 'retro' look of 8 and 16 bit games. If they made a jrpg for the DS with a fresh story and the 16 bit look, I'd snatch it up.

But that's me. Games today normally pander to kids today. And these kids want shiny and pretty, and dumbed down easy.

Edit - I also miss the 90's. Everything went to this peak of extreme awesome in the 90's. It was even better than the 70's and 80's. 2000's went uphill in some categories and completely sacrificed others, making it less cool as a whole.

Edit 2 - I hate texting.

if you give him an old school adventure he will be confused as shit. and so will you.
combine cheese with socks and stick to make a harpoon?
yes, that kind of logic was often found in these old jewels.

and

Personally, I miss the 'retro' look of 8 and 16 bit games. If they made a jrpg for the DS with a fresh story and the 16 bit look, I'd snatch it up.

are you living under a rock have you outed yourself as a hermit?
or have you been actively ignoring the games that came out?

most recent example
image

It's obvious that harpoons can only be made through combining cheese with socks and a stick. That formula is so strangely obvious. Mind you, it would have to be cheddar for it to work.

(And I wrote a ton of random old-school happenstances, thereafter becoming lost in random memories of Zork. The torch with the bickering flame never shutting up, for example. Deleted the lot because it became a ramble and I lost my train of thought.)

Suffice to say we need more games with more weird stuff that makes little to no sense. If gaming is too straightforwards and -

Sorry, I'm getting bad reception. Hold on while I move this chunk of raw granite that makes for a fine doorway.

...

totally heterosexual:

rhizhim:

are you living under a rockhave you outed yourself as a hermit?
or have y<ou been actively ignoring the games that came out?

most recent example
image

That game is the shit and i would recommend it to everyone who like good games.

Alright, call me intrigued. I'll go check out this game. =D Cheers!

Never really had the best imagination in all fairness.
That indistinct bunch of pixels on the screen just stay an indistinct bunch of pixels to me.
I envy you with your wildly overactive imagination.

Aeonknight:

kingthrall:
snip

If I'm the 10 year old, how come I'm not the one resorting to petty insults? Food for thought.

When I say I haven't touched a mouse in years, I was refering to my particular MMO. Of course I use a mouse to play different games, but this one happens to be in that 10% you mentioned. And that point was only to refute your little "herp derp you click click click to farm for loincloths hypocrite!" remark. Way to take it out of context.

And what makes you think you can judge entire genre's on the merit of one game? No single game is capable of representing the thousands of others that exist in any particular genre. Using Call of Duty, a mainstream title to represent any/all audiences, including niche ones? Are you fucking high?

Your answer to FPS's all being "shoot tha terrorist!": Half Life 2. Immersive, decent story, definately not typical, and still has comparable graphics to the standards of today.

Your answer to all RPG's being LOTR clones? Dark Souls. Immersive as hell, a story that you actually have to look for yourself, good graphics.

So by all means, keep those nostalgia goggles duct taped to your pretty little head. If playing ancient games gives you immersion, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But try actually playing what you're trying to stereotype next time, otherwise expect to get called out on it.

Herp derp yourself, nice try using my argument as yours. Only immersion from stories ive heard is the comedic one comming from the posts I read from you. maybe you don't understand the term "few examples" but then agaist I should not have expected more from a console peasant such as yourself.

Sad thing about stereotypes in the gaming world, is that 90% of the time they are true including how desperate you are to the point of generalising that I dont play new games
myself. Better Luck next time and if you want to actually convince me perhaps try 1v1 me in myth 2. Id love to see 100% of my army in tact from the shocking purchase of units for the map type you pick and woeful tactics. Even after 4 years playing this game, pro's can get beaten by begginers from sheer luck and it took me three months to master all the tricks.

You do not, get this kind of experience in any other game. Put your Money where your mouth is.
Join the Tournament, sign on with a team and play. Its free and it costs you less than 10 dollars on ebay, another reason why older games are far superior on a monetary level.

http://mwc2012.proboards.com/index.cgi

Blood Brain Barrier:
Is this just too far over people's heads? Maybe I should post a "why Obsidian is better than Bioware thread" or "why JRPGs suck"

No, your point just sucks.

I simply prefer better graphics (because they're better), and I never play "myself" in a game. Why play myself when I could be somebody else? That's why I play games.

Also, any RPG worth its salt has character customization, so that point is moot. If you want to play yourself in a story-driven third-person game, I think you misunderstand what "story-driven" entails.

Also, where do you get off proclaiming that old graphics are inherently better than new ones, give us ONE (flawed) POINT to your argument, then accuse US of being shallow? [beleaguered sigh]

kingthrall:

Aeonknight:

kingthrall:
snip

If I'm the 10 year old, how come I'm not the one resorting to petty insults? Food for thought.

When I say I haven't touched a mouse in years, I was refering to my particular MMO. Of course I use a mouse to play different games, but this one happens to be in that 10% you mentioned. And that point was only to refute your little "herp derp you click click click to farm for loincloths hypocrite!" remark. Way to take it out of context.

And what makes you think you can judge entire genre's on the merit of one game? No single game is capable of representing the thousands of others that exist in any particular genre. Using Call of Duty, a mainstream title to represent any/all audiences, including niche ones? Are you fucking high?

Your answer to FPS's all being "shoot tha terrorist!": Half Life 2. Immersive, decent story, definately not typical, and still has comparable graphics to the standards of today.

Your answer to all RPG's being LOTR clones? Dark Souls. Immersive as hell, a story that you actually have to look for yourself, good graphics.

So by all means, keep those nostalgia goggles duct taped to your pretty little head. If playing ancient games gives you immersion, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But try actually playing what you're trying to stereotype next time, otherwise expect to get called out on it.

Herp derp yourself, nice try using my argument as yours. Only immersion from stories ive heard is the comedic one comming from the posts I read from you. maybe you don't understand the term "few examples" but then agaist I should not have expected more from a console peasant such as yourself.

Sad thing about stereotypes in the gaming world, is that 90% of the time they are true including how desperate you are to the point of generalising that I dont play new games
myself. Better Luck next time and if you want to actually convince me perhaps try 1v1 me in myth 2. Id love to see 100% of my army in tact from the shocking purchase of units for the map type you pick and woeful tactics. Even after 4 years playing this game, pro's can get beaten by begginers from sheer luck and it took me three months to master all the tricks.

You do not, get this kind of experience in any other game. Put your Money where your mouth is.
Join the Tournament, sign on with a team and play. Its free and it costs you less than 10 dollars on ebay, another reason why older games are far superior on a monetary level.

http://mwc2012.proboards.com/index.cgi

Ok I was kidding when I asked if you were high, but now that you've challenged me to a battle on your game, maybe I was dead on. You are seriously trying to throw your epeen around on your game? Wow, I would say this is new, but it isn't. I just never thought someone would be so stupid as to actually try. What makes you think I'd waste even 1 dollar on you?

console peasant. Cute. You can't really play the PC elitism card when your game could run on a TI-86 calculator bro. Just sayin'.

So the only thing noteworthy from your post is "nuh uh! new games ain't immersive!", an lolPCelitism remark, and an even more lawl worthy challenge to your game of pixelated mess vs pixelated mess. Yea I think I'm done with you.

and cue the "hurr hurr knew he wouldn't play against me" remark. Really could care less at this point. Your game doesn't justify your nonexistant arguement, I knew you were trolling 3 posts ago, and I'm done feeding you.

other than making up my own voices for characters in old 8 bit games in my head....there is no other imagination required for older games compared to newer games.

and hell, if you really are stuck on this point, stop playing video games and just read books (which requires even MORE imagination). games are apparently not for you.

edit: wat? Freaking tabs, how do they work? Ignore this.

kingthrall:
-herpderp-

Aeonknight:
lulz

I know I said I was outta here, but I'm glad I peeked back. The back and forth between you two has been highly amusing, especially these last two posts. Seriously.

image

Case in point for the OP, Corruption of Champions (WARNING If you're weirded out by non-standard fetishes, don't try to play that game).

The game is just text and the player gets to envision all the characters the way they want. And it's a hell of a lot more fun than looking them up on the internet and having someone's vision of them corrupt your own.

evilneko:

kingthrall:
-herpderp-

Aeonknight:
lulz

I know I said I was outta here, but I'm glad I peeked back. The back and forth between you two has been highly amusing, especially these last two posts. Seriously.

image

Glad at least someone got something from it. Also you get an internet for using Konata. Because it's Konata.

Aeonknight:

kingthrall:

Aeonknight:

If I'm the 10 year old, how come I'm not the one resorting to petty insults? Food for thought.

When I say I haven't touched a mouse in years, I was refering to my particular MMO. Of course I use a mouse to play different games, but this one happens to be in that 10% you mentioned. And that point was only to refute your little "herp derp you click click click to farm for loincloths hypocrite!" remark. Way to take it out of context.

And what makes you think you can judge entire genre's on the merit of one game? No single game is capable of representing the thousands of others that exist in any particular genre. Using Call of Duty, a mainstream title to represent any/all audiences, including niche ones? Are you fucking high?

Your answer to FPS's all being "shoot tha terrorist!": Half Life 2. Immersive, decent story, definately not typical, and still has comparable graphics to the standards of today.

Your answer to all RPG's being LOTR clones? Dark Souls. Immersive as hell, a story that you actually have to look for yourself, good graphics.

So by all means, keep those nostalgia goggles duct taped to your pretty little head. If playing ancient games gives you immersion, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But try actually playing what you're trying to stereotype next time, otherwise expect to get called out on it.

Herp derp yourself, nice try using my argument as yours. Only immersion from stories ive heard is the comedic one comming from the posts I read from you. maybe you don't understand the term "few examples" but then agaist I should not have expected more from a console peasant such as yourself.

Sad thing about stereotypes in the gaming world, is that 90% of the time they are true including how desperate you are to the point of generalising that I dont play new games
myself. Better Luck next time and if you want to actually convince me perhaps try 1v1 me in myth 2. Id love to see 100% of my army in tact from the shocking purchase of units for the map type you pick and woeful tactics. Even after 4 years playing this game, pro's can get beaten by begginers from sheer luck and it took me three months to master all the tricks.

You do not, get this kind of experience in any other game. Put your Money where your mouth is.
Join the Tournament, sign on with a team and play. Its free and it costs you less than 10 dollars on ebay, another reason why older games are far superior on a monetary level.

http://mwc2012.proboards.com/index.cgi

Ok I was kidding when I asked if you were high, but now that you've challenged me to a battle on your game, maybe I was dead on. You are seriously trying to throw your epeen around on your game? Wow, I would say this is new, but it isn't. I just never thought someone would be so stupid as to actually try. What makes you think I'd waste even 1 dollar on you?

console peasant. Cute. You can't really play the PC elitism card when your game could run on a TI-86 calculator bro. Just sayin'.

So the only thing noteworthy from your post is "nuh uh! new games ain't immersive!", an lolPCelitism remark, and an even more lawl worthy challenge to your game of pixelated mess vs pixelated mess. Yea I think I'm done with you.

and cue the "hurr hurr knew he wouldn't play against me" remark. Really could care less at this point. Your game doesn't justify your nonexistant arguement, I knew you were trolling 3 posts ago, and I'm done feeding you.

You have not even started feeding me ratio's yet so dont lie. Oh and I expected you to chicken out, your like all the rest. Dont want to put your money where your mouth is. Oh and I am nobody's bro. I am surprised you even know what a calculator is, let alone a scientific one because consoles only come with four mashable buttons.

Of course there isnt any point talking to you anyway, since you just refused my challenge like a wimp I dont see you worthy of communicating with me now.

edit: LOL kontana what the hell is a kontana sounds like a instrument used for flipping burgers.

lacktheknack:

Blood Brain Barrier:
Is this just too far over people's heads? Maybe I should post a "why Obsidian is better than Bioware thread" or "why JRPGs suck"

No, your point just sucks.

I simply prefer better graphics (because they're better), and I never play "myself" in a game. Why play myself when I could be somebody else? That's why I play games.

Also, any RPG worth its salt has character customization, so that point is moot. If you want to play yourself in a story-driven third-person game, I think you misunderstand what "story-driven" entails.

Also, where do you get off proclaiming that old graphics are inherently better than new ones, give us ONE (flawed) POINT to your argument, then accuse US of being shallow? [beleaguered sigh]

Where do YOU get off telling us better graphics are better?

If you read the OP properly, you'd realise I never said one plays oneself in a game, but that one can more accurately portray one's desired character in a game with simplified graphics.

I certainly do love roleplaying in pacman.

I think the OPs opinions are misguided, but I feel that pulling graphics and therefore budgets back a few notches would probably help us out of this rut we're digging into.

I like older games, such good times.

Blood Brain Barrier:
Is this just too far over people's heads? Maybe I should post a "why Obsidian is better than Bioware thread" or "why JRPGs suck"

Wow. Way to make yourself out to be a pretentious prick.

I would have gone with something along the lines of "lower graphics use less money and space, which allows for more gameplay elements and length" or something like that. Not...whatever it was you just said. Seriously, that is a pretty poor argument. My counter-argument would be: Go play tabletop. Good graphics can help get us immersed in the world better, let us know what someone is really supposed to look like, and be used for story just as much when used right. The problem comes from the damned effort to just make it look pretty instead of using it to improve storytelling.

Schaaka:

Dont confuse 'Moved away' with 'lack of creativity'. Now'a'days everyone is a badass. Every Movie, Game and TableTop Rp

You're only a badass if you choose to be in tabletop :-p I have been known to create a bumbling idiot to give my friends carefully made characters a whole new level of difficulty. This may or may not include speaking with the DM ahead of time to ensure levers that should never be pulled and dangerous traps that are very obvious are aplenty.

If games were meant to be an imaginative experience, we'd just have never upgraded from Zork or "Choose your own adventure" books.

I thought this was going to be an intelligent thread on old games cherishing aesthetic more so than today's games, but I was wrong. Then again, I also was prepped to come in here and say "Are you high? I can't even play the original Deus Ex without mods because it looks like such a giant piece of garbage!"

lacktheknack:

Blood Brain Barrier:
Is this just too far over people's heads? Maybe I should post a "why Obsidian is better than Bioware thread" or "why JRPGs suck"

No, your point just sucks.

I simply prefer better graphics (because they're better), and I never play "myself" in a game. Why play myself when I could be somebody else? That's why I play games.

Also, any RPG worth its salt has character customization, so that point is moot. If you want to play yourself in a story-driven third-person game, I think you misunderstand what "story-driven" entails.

Also, where do you get off proclaiming that old graphics are inherently better than new ones, give us ONE (flawed) POINT to your argument, then accuse US of being shallow? [beleaguered sigh]

I was about to agree entirely with you, but.... ummmm....

>Any RPG worth its salt has character customization

Brb, throwing out all my Persona, Final Fantasy, Tales, Chrono, Lunar and Xeno games

This seems relevant and I dont really feel like starting a new thread for it:
Does Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines hold up both graphicly and gameplay wise? I'm thinking about buyying it since I cant to go around being a vampire and what not.

Hazy992:
So are you saying older graphics are better because they make you use your imagination more? Well then why even bother with a video game? Use a pen and paper.

A FREAKING MEN!

hell why even use pen and paper?

just make the stuff up in your head.

This is silly and pointless.
As a game designer I resent the idea that graphics makes a game.
If you are in the magic circle you let anything work if it's flowing.
If depends what you want from the game. If you're playing an FPS you want to be able to actually aim at stuff that doesn't look like a pixel.
It totally depends on what you want to do. Sure, you could replace everything with pong-sized dots, but what's the point?
Abstraction -whilst it favours imagination-based characterisation of people and objects- is not reliable for everything. And a blanket statement such as yours is silly.

Gabanuka:
This seems relevant and I dont really feel like starting a new thread for it:
Does Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines hold up both graphicly and gameplay wise? I'm thinking about buyying it since I cant to go around being a vampire and what not.

VtMB is a good game. If graphics are your concern they aren't bad. Gameplay wise you may hear some people tell you guns feel clunky, but I never had that problem due to being a proper vampire and tearing things apart with my hands (or just making one of them kill the others then drop dead, or make them think I disappear then assassinate them). There are still some bugs, and if you run the widescreen patch it creates a few visual bugs, but the experience is still great. Also it has a mission fairly early on that even without being a horror game is better at it than games that are actually supposed to be horror.

I would definitely suggest getting the community patches, but I would also suggest holding off on mods for at least one play-through so you know how it was intended to play. Camarilla's mod may sound great, but it's a fairly different experience than the vanilla game.

accipitre:
snip

Yes! Remember kids, losing is fun! Haha but seriously, it can be intimidating to try and get the hang of, but Dwarf Fortress is certainly the kind of thing half the people in this thread seem to want.

Agree that there are advantages to earlier graphics. But for completely different reasons. A players imagination can fill any gap, including those left by newer games and graphics. What the player refuses to do without kicking and screaming right now is pay extra for more content in a game after the money was eaten up in massive pools for graphics design, voice acting, multiple outcomes et al.

Games tended to be larger in scope 12 years ago for less money, far less money. the industry is not better for some of the changes. I would like to see more Fallouts (Not Fallout 3) and fewer mindless FPSs with perfect graphics and physics. You just get more bang for your buck both as a developer and a player.

But really using more primitive graphics is only a benefit to RPGs. These games tend to be the most expensive and complicated. other genres can be the complete package for less money. But RPGs are expensive, complicated, filled with narrative stuff and to top it all off have a very demanding user base. They need to stop focusing on graphics now and get back to what they are good at.

Xangba:
snip

Is taking a charisma route viable then? Also where can I find these patches?

Well unless we are only talking about anything before snes then yes you could use your imagination. However outside of NPC in games a majority of characters had several defining characteristics that made them distinct.

Gabanuka:

Xangba:
snip

Is taking a charisma route viable then? Also where can I find these patches?

I actually have a persuader/seducer character (among others of course), and it works well. Doesn't even have much combat training due to being able to make everyone think I'm gone, then slitting their throat from behind. Boss battles are kind of a bitch that way though, so plan ahead. You can't talk your way out of everything.

Quaidis:
If I hand a kid today a game from forever ago, they get confused, can't think themselves into the game, and put it down for something more shiney and pretty.

Correction, they will just find it bad because they are not looking at it through nostalgia goggles.

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