Feminist Kickstarter Project gets Harassed/Threatened

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Zydrate:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
... if the most you do is make a post on an internet forum, you don't have the right to claim you care oh so much.

I find that a tad unfair. What's wrong with expressing a displeasure in something? It's a DISCUSSION. If everyone withheld such posts, forums wouldn't exist o_O

And for all you know, people are doing something off of the computer screen.

Just sayin'.

And I'm just sayin people should act as well as speak. I can't know for sure, obviously - maybe everyone in this thread has donated 2 kidneys and is a member of the extreme anti sexism club - but when you look at how little people are willing to act out what they preach, it's understandable when someone assumes most people in this thread don't. That's how I see it anyway.

Ragsnstitches:
But we reached a middle ground, that I can agree. A remarkable result given the usual trend of endless ranting that the internet is famous for.

Good chat.

Indeed, specially since this started out so nasty, but I think we managed to convey our opinions without getting insulting in the end. (Took long enough though :P )

DrVornoff:

I wasn't talking to you directly because I know you won't and can't cite a single scholarly source to back up your absurdist claims. Now step aside, kid. You're done here.

How about you practice what you preach for once.

Brad Calkins:
How about you practice what you preach for once.

Dude, please. You were the one who made a claim. You claimed that science has proven women to be inferior to men. The burden is now on you to provide us with the scientific evidence that verifies this claim. You do not get to turn it around on me or anyone else when we ask for that evidence.

Are you going to provide proof? Yes or no will do. Any answer other than yes followed by that proof will be taken as a "no."

Ragsnstitches:

wetnap:

Censorship is standard on womens sites, thus the only opinion that gets through is clique approved, or the extreme troll that has bothered to deal with all the hoops you have to jump through to even appear on the site, everyone else cant be bothered.

Anyways the reaction has something to do with a long history of these types of attacks of male interests. Its not just a reaction to this incident alone. It comes from a history where because some feminists saw that mostly men watched pornography and they didn't have much interest in itself, it must be sexist and degrading to women by default, and its gone on to be the basis of attacks of every other male dominated interest around. The message always is you have to change this to suit my interest, even if I have none myself. Its like if men had gotten together to complain that oprah did not cater to their needs, and thus it should be pressured to change, and labeled as sexist until that time, and all the women who watched this oprah were by association sexist as well, part of a wide cultural sexism against men. The rational reaction would be to tell such a loser to eff off, but when women do it, it becomes a virtuous cause.

I'm not excusing the level of reaction, just explaining it.

Its pervasive in society now, you don't notice it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmRDUcbx9tw
as pointed out by maher a while back, "making women nod" has become the thing, even if it involves lies, bad logic and the rest, it has become the default position.

What I find funny is that, you tell me it's pervasive in society, yet the only source you offer is a your word and a comedian/political controversialist who has had some hilariously awkward experiences with women. Just off the top of my head, he was in a relationship with a playboy model, who was also crazy, and sued him for something like a Billion dollars for apparently lying about wanting to get married and wanting a baby. It went to court, who if this was TV would probably have seen him lose that money, but because they aren't insane, he won.

If that didn't skew his opinion of women... wait it totally did.

He equates marriage to slavery, which sort of undermines the efforts of the entire LGBT community who have put many years and going, trying to make marriage of same sex couples legally sanctified and socially acceptable.

Oh yeah, and he isn't funny. His social commentary jokes are of the same calibre as TV dinner jokes... in that they ran out of fashion in the 1980s I have no respect for the man.

Also, you must confuse me for a feminist. I'm not a feminist and at no point did I say I was. I don't go out of my way to protect womens rights, I support it to an extent... its hard not to see the destructive and harmful movements within feminist ideals. I don't support the belittling of men and I take issue with the concept of gender neutral. Rather then accepting and embracing our differences in society some movements would rather throw up the illusion that we are the same... its a half hearted gesture that would eventually collapse on itself.

I DO however, have contempt for people who gang up on others for bigoted/spiteful reasons and, even more so, the people who are aware of it but choose apathy over taking a stance. This is why I'm here, arguing with others...

Please take your fear of change elsewhere.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Ragsnstitches:
So my stance is this: Show no quarter. These people can't have a cushion of complacency and indifference to fall onto. Especially not on the scale we see here... I agree it will never go away, but the least we can do is make it abundantly clear that they aren't welcome and if possible, force them back into the recesses of the various offensive chan sites and its ilk, where they can fester and circle jerk over their painfully low wit until the end of days.

I've spent enough time on 4chan and the internet in general to know that won't work. As long as they don't have to fear any real world repercussions they couldn't give less of a shit if you welcome them here and anywhere else.

Simply saying "This shit will not fly!", then making that statement again and again without actually doing anything is what pisses me off.

Congratulations, you won't welcome sexism with a warm cup of tea and a backrub. Sorry, but that's not worth much. I can respect that as your own personal demeanor but I'm still going to ridicule you for recognizing a problem, then turning your back on it so to speak, which is exactly what is going on in this thread.

This shit is what has been pissing me off for years now. It's the same deal as starving children in Africa really. Not just the internet but the first world in general sees a problem, screams "OH MA GAWD THATS TERRIBLE" and then goes along the same as before. No, sorry. If you act like that, don't even fucking try to pretend you care. Because in reality, you don't. Every fucking time this happens. Feminist kickstarter problems, Breivik, Africa, you name it. Just bitch bitch bitch without really thinking about it.

This is also why (this will probably shock you but it's my honest opinion) I have about as much respect for the people flaming that video and the people commenting here. Both think they see a problem (whether they're right or not is a different subject) and refuse to do anything else but hit their keyboard a few times.

Ragsnstitches:
Yet you will be argumentative towards people who do? So you don't care about the issues facing the world/internet/forum whatever, just the people talking about them?

Let me try that again... You try not to worry about things that you can't change BUT will argue the reasons for caring about things that people want to argue about?

What it actually boils down to is this; I don't care, and I don't pretend do. Like I said, most people here don't care, but they pretend to, because they think typing a paragraph is enough. I disagree. Making a post on an internet forum does not mean you care, that goes for me as well as other people too. Again, if you did care, you would do something beyond posting on The Escapist.

I do things beyond posting on the escapist. I was part of a REAL social group in school that aimed at promoting support towards victims of bullying in any shape or form, and to raise awareness of the damage apathy can cause.

I'm currently in a college club that talks to people who were bullied, offers support in dealing with any long term harm due to it (including redirection to counsellors) and who actively campaign in OTHER colleges and also do talks in any primary and secondary level schools in the county that will have us.

However, after a few graduations and some administrative cut backs in regard to facilities, we haven't been able to recuperate our dwindling numbers. So I'm a little bent out of shape about this whole topic.

BEYOND that however, even by posting my displeasure on an internet forum, I'm doing a sight more to combat this phenomenon then you or lolwhat. Not because I'm talking about it, no... but because you are actively antagonising those that do. Rather then encouraging the growth of awareness, you cut it off because you don't feel like it helps and it makes you feel bad.

Smash:
Heh, that got a chuckle out of me. I'm uncomfortable with a lot of things, ranging from poverty to modern human mentality to discrimination. To answer your question, no, I am not, and I'm not comfortable with this whole situation either, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

Smash:
Because giving a shit doesn't help in this case. The most you can do is leave a friendly comment. There are no charities to donate to and no voluntary work to be done.

Your posts here do fuck all.

Also you are fooling no one but yourself. You do care, but since you can't see anything you can do, you play apathetic to the whole thing... while simultaneously railing against those that want to talk about it.

Forced apathy is Bullshit and it is the problem I have with so many people, it is a social faux-pas I will never accept.

lowhat:

Ragsnstitches:

Setting a precedence in my view on this is not something I'm worried about... I FIND IT INTOLERABLE. There is no degree of measurement in which I can measure my disdain for wilful apathy. If someone is actively trying to harm someone else... and i mean HARM, and others just shrug it off and let the victim deal with it, I will flip, regardless of the extent of the harm.

Also, are you aware that there were deliberate and organised attempts at sabotaging this kickstarter? That goes well beyond the realms of criticism and dives straight into the realm of oppression and censorship.

Or how about attempts at discrediting her as a person. Not her work, but herself, irrelevant towards what she does. That isn't criticism. That's an attack.

Oh yeah, and forget the fact that most of the verbal assaults were drawn out simply because she has different type of genitalia. Again nothing to do with the artist and her work. Just biology and social ignorance.

No matter how futile their gestures may seem in regards to the project, the reaction OTHER people have towards it is inexcusable.

Do I differentiate the impact of both of these scenarios? No... because its NOT those acts I'm scrutinising. It's the IGNORANCE and COMPLACENCY that other people encourage and which seems to infest society at almost every level. That is the worst offence. I have fought people on multiple occasions over this poisonousness logic.

If you think I'm belittling my friends assault because I'm furious about the inaction by absolutely everybody with power to actually do something then you are dead wrong and completely miss actual problem at hand.

My point had nothing to do with comparing the Physical Assault or the Misogynistic Attacks against that Kickstarter. It was a personal incident which I could use to illustrate the flaws of apathetic behaviour. Of which I have no tolerance for.

So what exactly have you done lately to to protect those being victimized? And no, your brand of internet tough-guyism isn't doing anything productive or useful, it's crying over spilled milk. Many of the ignorant cretins who inhabit this planet aren't going to respond to anything except force, so unless you're already taking trips into the Idaho wilderness to take away the neo-Nazi survivalist's connection to the internet, you might want to consider the phrase "put up or shut up".

The reality of this situation is that it highlights one of the many double standards on the Internet. If the exact same videos had been created by someone with a penis, far fewer fucks would have been given(ht: Smash) when they were ridiculed for creating something so patently stupid(Really? Lara Croft, a character as close to the realization of feminist ideals as you could possibly get, is now a symbol of sexist oppression?)

Once again, if she doesn't want to be attacked, there are plenty of things she could be doing with her time besides making asinine videos that don't make a lick of sense. It doesn't excuse the attacks, but there are far, far greater injustices in the world for me to spend my concern on.

1st off, read the start of my response to smash on this comment.

Also, you again miss the point of my actions... its not the bullying, but the people who turn away from it because they don't see a solution. I can't accept that as it is counter-productive. The people who do nothing have accomplished nothing and, on more then one occasion, have intentionality encouraged the acts that wrong us all. Even speaking out against it, or adding your voice to the dissent is enough for me. Words spread and carry power that most people don't realise...

Which is another reasons why I can't stand what you and Smash are doing. You are fighting a voice that wants to eliminate the free reign these detestable cretins have. Even though you BOTH state or at least infer you don't like what these people do, you choose to rally with them by simply fighting us.

Once again, if she doesn't want to be attacked, there are plenty of things she could be doing with her time besides making asinine videos that don't make a lick of sense. It doesn't excuse the attacks, but there are far, far greater injustices in the world for me to spend my concern on.

... and this makes no sense. What chance have you got at abolishing poverty/war/famine/oppression if you can't even tackle the garden variety bigot. I mean, you did say to put up or shut up right? What have you done against that? Do you throw a few pennies into a plastic box? or do you go over to this broken locations and try to fix it?

I will guess the former if anything, though that might not even be true. But even I will admit that I wouldn't have to courage to go over to these places. I also don't tell be people to not bother either.

Oh and one last thing, lest you all forget;

I'M NOT A FEMINIST.

SO basically, what you're saying is that you're sanctimonious and patronizing towards people for doing EXACTLY the same thing you do about theses kinds of abuses. Which is fuck all. Gotcha.

And once again, put up or shut up. If you aren't willing to develop a sense of courage and go fight the good fight, you have no grounds to belittle others for not doing anything about the many, many injustices of the world. Leave that to the people who actually sack up and put their ass on the line to help out victims.

lowhat:

SO basically, what you're saying is that you're sanctimonious and patronizing towards people for doing EXACTLY the same thing you do about theses kinds of abuses. Which is fuck all. Gotcha.

And once again, put up or shut up. If you aren't willing to develop a sense of courage and go fight the good fight, you have no grounds to belittle others for not doing anything about the many, many injustices of the world. Leave that to the people who actually sack up and put their ass on the line to help out victims.

Ragsnstitches:

I do things beyond posting on the escapist. I was part of a REAL social group in school that aimed at promoting support towards victims of bullying in any shape or form, and to raise awareness of the damage apathy can cause.

I'm currently in a college club that talks to people who were bullied, offers support in dealing with any long term harm due to it (including redirection to counsellors) and who actively campaign in OTHER colleges and also do talks in any primary and secondary level schools in the county that will have us.

Okay, just so you know this isn't a dick measuring contest, I do what I can. I don't expect people to run out and start charities or set up councils or sail across the seas to fight injustice.

As I've stressed repeatedly over the course of this debate, is that my stance isn't against the bullies since I'm ill equipped and ill educated to tackle this topic at the heart. I am however, attempting to create a cushion, or safety net if you will, for those affected by bullying... and this is something anyone can do, there is no barrier to entry. I specifically target forced apathy. This is when people turn away from the harm done to others just because they can't see a solution and it makes them feel bad, rather then banding together to help those who suffer. Simply voicing your displeasure counts, since the more people who share the same voice there are, the more confident and potent a movement based on those ideals will be and more likely an individual or a group with the capacity to make a change will be inspired or motivated by these voices. I don't expect everyone, not even a handful, to become crusaders against injustice. I just expect support, either by words or actions... both are potent at different things.

However, what I saw here on this topic, isn't just apathy. Smashlovestitanquest (who I have reconciled with and reached a consensus) had not only entered this discussion by telling people who were simply voicing their displeasure that doing so does nothing and why bother even talking about it without a solution, but he also went on to attack the competence of the Kickstarter and the person behind it. From where I stand, that looked like he was simply giving the bullies a pass since they had anonymity and you know, this is the internet *shrugs*. But on top of that he tried to reasons that these guys might have point under all their stupid.

Just because I can't muster the courage to sail across the seas and defend populations against Warlords, or aid those who are sick and do not receive adequate aid, or to fight censorship in China, doesn't mean that I don't care. My voice is added to the cacophony of discontent and anger that these causes generate against the oppressors and the neglectors.

I won't, however, tell people to shut up just because it makes me feel sad inside.

And if you derive hypocrisy from that statement, then you are morally bankrupt. There is a massive difference between adding my voice to a cause to change the world for the better, then it is to simply tell people to shut up because there is nothing we can do.

Zydrate:

lowhat:

Zydrate:

You don't see it, then. That shit ISN'T acceptable. And there's multiple topics of such harassment all over the place. Extra Credits and Moviebob have covered it.

I grit my teeth every time I hear the term used in such a casual manner. Like how "gay" became synonymous with "stupid".

I'm a gay female atheist. Internet life for me is FUN.

Any chance you could link to those? I'm curious to see what, if any, differences there are in the level of comment traffic for an article about general internet harassment vs. the "misogynistic horde" article.

Certainly! Sadly, I cannot locate Moviebobs, it was in one of his "Junk Drawer/Mailbag" episodes, and I'll probably be heading to bed soon and don't have the time to hunt for it.

However: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment

I'm not sure, but it might have been the words for nerds video. Don't hold me to that though.

Clearing the Eye:

Revnak:

Brad Calkins:
no woman has invented a world changing technology.

To be fair, you must have known this was coming.

No woman has ever invented a world changing technology? How can you seriously believe such a bullshit claim? I'm going to leave with a series of links, one with a good explanation for why women have not invented as many things, and also with a very simple truth. Men and women will always be at least as different as we assume they are, and have never been more different than that. If the day comes that the differences between men and women are being understated, that is the day we have truly, honestly found equality. That day is almost certainly not today and will likely never come around as long as clearly ignorant fuckwits continue to claim that women are inherently inferior, like the brainless, misogynistic, hateful, ugly, lonely, borderline-psychopathic, freakish, monstrous, heartless, bastard cavemen that they are. In fact, scratch that last one. As anthropology shows that inequality is found to be much smaller in primitive societies, I feel that cavemen likely don't fall into this category. Such dick-loving morons (no offense to people who legitimately love dicks, these buffoons are far below you) are likely a major insult to cavemen. These wastes of carbon, water, fuck, these wastes of uranium, as I am fairly certain that even a trace amount of that in their bodies is worth more than the entirety of their trivial existence, are truly far less advanced than cavemen.

A woman invented the circular saw? That thing is so old that I would have assumed it must have been made by a man, because it wasn't until fairly recently that women were allowed to do anything besides cook. Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but they were hardly encouraged to do anything besides cook and attempting to get into the hardware and tool industry must have been a grueling exercise.

A woman also invented the dishwasher according to one of your links. Don't know if it's true, but if it is... I want to give that woman the biggest hug of my life. Might not seem like a big deal and it's a total first-world problem, but oh my god is having a dishwasher so much better than doing dishes. So, so, so much better.

They also invented chocolate chip cookies, might not be world changing but damn do they taste good.

...This is why I don't care for people on the internet. Well, the ones who think they can hide behind anonymity, anyway...

If anyone wonders why mainstream developers don't take the risk of doing anything even slightly controversial this is it. Or in other words this is quite literally why we can't have nice things.

Also - this shit was posted on the Escapist? Shame on whoever posted it and any mod who saw it without deleting it. If there's no rule against posting a level of trolling that verges on psychotic stalking there needs to be.

I've seen some of their videos and I like them. It does what a lot of Escapist and former Escapist videos do; it looks at a problem from an objective point of view and intelligently dissects the issue, rather than just ranting about how it is wrong. I guess some people (not just guys) can't really stomach the fact that some tropes/stereotypes in the media are just the norm and anyone who disagrees is making a fuss over nothing.

Pearwood:
If anyone wonders why mainstream developers don't take the risk of doing anything even slightly controversial this is it. Or in other words this is quite literally why we can't have nice things.

Also - this shit was posted on the Escapist? Shame on whoever posted it and any mod who saw it without deleting it. If there's no rule against posting a level of trolling that verges on psychotic stalking there needs to be.

Sorry the ultra violence in games is not controversial?

Is game of thrones controversial?
you can watch bro sis doin the dirty...

What is controversial now?

developers don't make games for an audience that doesn't exist. Just as feminists who know that talk is cheap can't be bothered to actually invest in game studios or development to make games for the vast female audience they always claim is out there.

The reality is that this particular Kickstarter is merely the latest salvo in an ongoing culture war that has been going on at least as long as the Penny Arcade Dickwolf incident of 2010, between online gaming aficionados and online presence of feminism.

Everyone remember the Dickwolves controversy, right? When a feminist, who might or might not have been a reader of the Penny Arcade comic, gathered together a mob of angry feminists, who might or might not have been gamers to any meaningful degree or readers of the PA comic for that matter either, and then attempted to dogpile Penny Arcade into submission under the weight of their complaints?

Only in turn to be buried under an avalanche of hate, bile and misogyny once the guys at Penny Arcade let their loyal readership know what was happening? How things swiftly disintegrated from there into a mutual cluster-fuck of pure spite?

Anita Sarkeesian is a grown adult and by precedent she knew exactly what she was getting into when she joined the feminist movement to first pacify and then gentrify whatever loosely confederated mass passes for gaming culture. She is a willing participant in an ideologically-driven cultural offensive on a popular art movement, so I'm not going to buy into the narrative that she is some rare delicate flower whose fragile sensibilities are being trampled upon by brutal trolls. But so far as the topic of death threats go, well this wouldn't be the first time that feminism, popular art and attempted murder reached a nexus point, would it?

Paradoxrifts:
The reality is that this particular Kickstarter is merely the latest salvo in an ongoing culture war that has been going on at least as long as the Penny Arcade Dickwolf incident of 2010, between online gaming aficionados and online presence of feminism.

Everyone remember the Dickwolves controversy, right? When a feminist, who might or might not have been a reader of the Penny Arcade comic, gathered together a mob of angry feminists, who might or might not have been gamers to any meaningful degree or readers of the PA comic for that matter either, and then attempted to dogpile Penny Arcade into submission under the weight of their complaints?

Only in turn to be buried under an avalanche of hate, bile and misogyny once the guys at Penny Arcade let their loyal readership know what was happening? How things swiftly disintegrated from there into a mutual cluster-fuck of pure spite?

Anita Sarkeesian is a grown adult and by precedent she knew exactly what she was getting into when she joined the feminist movement to first pacify and then gentrify whatever loosely confederated mass passes for gaming culture. She is a willing participant in an ideologically-driven cultural offensive on a popular art movement, so I'm not going to buy into the narrative that she is some rare delicate flower whose fragile sensibilities are being trampled upon by brutal trolls. But so far as the topic of death threats go, well this wouldn't be the first time that feminism, popular art and attempted murder reached a nexus point, would it?

i actually had to look up that controversy. holy hell do that group who were against the dickwolf joke came across as the biggest group of A holes ive ever seen in my entire life. The whole situation could have been resolved pretty quickly at PA i would imagine if those people weren't smug and pretentious twats.

I could even understand where they are coming from, but if they approached me that way i would fight them purely out of spite of their character (or complete lack thereof)

Ryotknife:
The whole situation could have been resolved pretty quickly at PA i would imagine if those people weren't smug and pretentious twats.

I'm a little astounded that anyone can look at anything Penny Arcade-related and, among the parties involved, conclude that the non-Penny Arcade party is the "smug and pretentious" one. I mean, seriously, all it would have taken was an apology, but instead they opted to get weird and hostile about people having perfectly reasonable objections to their subject matter.

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:
The whole situation could have been resolved pretty quickly at PA i would imagine if those people weren't smug and pretentious twats.

I'm a little astounded that anyone can look at anything Penny Arcade-related and, among the parties involved, conclude that the non-Penny Arcade party is the "smug and pretentious" one. I mean, seriously, all it would have taken was an apology, but instead they opted to get weird and hostile about people having perfectly reasonable objections to their subject matter.

Out of curiousity Kahunaburger, where exactly do you stand on the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue? I'm not trying to derail the thread, but please by all means humour me with a response.

Paradoxrifts:

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:
The whole situation could have been resolved pretty quickly at PA i would imagine if those people weren't smug and pretentious twats.

I'm a little astounded that anyone can look at anything Penny Arcade-related and, among the parties involved, conclude that the non-Penny Arcade party is the "smug and pretentious" one. I mean, seriously, all it would have taken was an apology, but instead they opted to get weird and hostile about people having perfectly reasonable objections to their subject matter.

Out of curiousity Kahunaburger, where exactly do you stand on the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue? I'm not trying to derail the thread, but please by all means humour me with a response.

Pretty much my stance on every inter-ethnic conflict. Generations of hate are not an easy issue to solve, there should be a more concerted effort at mediation (and, from Israel and Palestine, at not alienating mediators), and the international community shouldn't be using this particular inter-ethnic conflict as a staging ground for mostly unrelated international conflicts. I'm not entirely sure why you think this is relevant, though.

image

I swear this issue is more hot than Mass Effect 3

well....its at least good to know people care about sexism I guess?

Zydrate:

Binnsyboy:

On a lighter note, what percentage of the people posting stuff like this are single against their own will, I wonder? :P

What people fail to realize is that their future employers and schools can look up internet history as part of a background check.

"Hm. It says here that when you were fourteen, you threatened to rape and murder a youtube video blogger.
...Can you explain to us why we should bother acknowledging your continued existence ever again?"

'You know, I bet by the time 2030 comes around, we'll be intimately familiar with our newly elected presidents genitals thanks to a youthful facebook post.' - Nash, 'What The F*** Is Wrong With You?'

wetnap:

developers don't make games for an audience that doesn't exist. Just as feminists who know that talk is cheap can't be bothered to actually invest in game studios or development to make games for the vast female audience they always claim is out there.

Doesn't the fact that this exists say they are willing to invest?

Kahunaburger:
I'm not entirely sure why you think this is relevant, though.

Ah, but it is! Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have at separate times in their intrinsically linked modern history exploited the perception that they're victims for their own gain. Like the fairy tale goblin Rumpelstiltskin who spun common straw into gold, to differing degrees of success they've both transformed human misery into political clout. And when nations, when people, when individuals do this, a strange thing occurs in that I stop feeling sorry for them. Completely.

You see I feel that it is one thing to be a victim of a terrible crime. But it is quite another, entirely different thing, for a person to lash together a cultural siege engine out of their suffering and drive it towards random people who only have the most tenuous and loosest of connections with the source of your angst in the first place. And then when their act of unwarranted aggression disintegrates around them, when the backlash is too hot and fierce, fall back again on the fact that they're a victim of a terrible crime in order to mitigate damage and garner sympathetic support.

This is why when I examined the non-Penny Arcade parties involved in the Dickwolves incident, all I really saw was yet another ad-hoc collection of online slackivists protesting the sort of pointless shit that really can only be taken seriously as an object of protest on the internet.

Paradoxrifts:

Ah, but it is! Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have at separate times in their intrinsically linked modern history exploited the perception that they're victims for their own gain. Like the fairy tale goblin Rumpelstiltskin who spun common straw into gold, to differing degrees of success they've both transformed human misery into political clout. And when nations, when people, when individuals do this, a strange thing occurs in that I stop feeling sorry for them. Completely.

You see I feel that it is one thing to be a victim of a terrible crime. But it is quite another, entirely different thing, for a person to lash together a cultural siege engine out of their suffering and drive it towards random people who only have the most tenuous and loosest of connections with the source of your angst in the first place. And then when their act of unwarranted aggression disintegrates around them, when the backlash is too hot and fierce, fall back again on the fact that they're a victim of a terrible crime in order to mitigate damage and garner sympathetic support.

I get the impression that you have a tendency to over-systematize a la our friend EternalNothingness. Who, for instance, are the suicide bombers in your analogy? Who is Egypt? What constitutes "aggression?" What are the Camp David Accords?

All that happened IRL in the Penny Arcade fiasco was that people got reasonably upset with PA for using a triggering topic as a throw-away gag and PA became very hostile and defensive about it, then responded with a string of dick moves that were (rightfully) called out by the community as a whole. PA (rightfully) lost fans and some speakers at PAX, then issued a non-apology. I have no idea why some of their fans use such apocalyptic rhetoric to describe what essentially amounted to a learning experience for two man-children.

Risingblade:
Does it really cost that much to make internet videos? I had no idea O.o

If you didn't have the camera's, software, and pcs maybe. She has all of those, very high quality ones already.

Its one of the underlining reasons for the backlash is that she's asking for money to do something she will get paid very well for anyway.

Its beyond unethical, and at the stupid heights its reached she should definitely pledge that money to some actual helpful feminist cause.

So like the trolling is unfunny and offends you so we have to take this shit seriously and whine about sexism and injustice on forums to spread "awareness"? Whatever bro.

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:
The whole situation could have been resolved pretty quickly at PA i would imagine if those people weren't smug and pretentious twats.

I'm a little astounded that anyone can look at anything Penny Arcade-related and, among the parties involved, conclude that the non-Penny Arcade party is the "smug and pretentious" one. I mean, seriously, all it would have taken was an apology, but instead they opted to get weird and hostile about people having perfectly reasonable objections to their subject matter.

I dont know many smug and pretentious people who constantly belittle themselves and downplay their accomplishments. in fact, that sounds like the opposite of smug and pretentious...huh.

if all the other party wanted was an apology, that is one thing. quite honestly they probably would have gotten it without much fuss. But that is not all they wanted. they wanted PA to pretty much admit that they are scum, sexist, pigs who dont deserve to breathe while exclaiming how brilliant and enlightened the other party is for deigning to take the time to speak to the "peasantry" of PA.

Now, im the kind of guy where if you ask me nicely, ill bend over backwards to help you. PA is probably the same way. If you come at me with an attitude, especially if its undeserved (or i think it is), prepare for a fight. and hell, the whole issue revolve around a joke that wasnt even about rape, in fact it was an extremely minor part of the whole comic. I didnt even remember that the comic mentioned rape (in passing) until i looked up the controversy. I thought it was over something they did during a panel in PAX or something.

Vault101:
image

I swear this issue is more hot than Mass Effect 3

well....its at least good to know people care about sexism I guess?

i love your image.

Ryotknife:

if all the other party wanted was an apology, that is one thing. quite honestly they probably would have gotten it without much fuss.

Uh, they did want exactly that. Penny Arcade responded in various petulant ways, none of which constituted much of an actual apology.

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

if all the other party wanted was an apology, that is one thing. quite honestly they probably would have gotten it without much fuss.

Uh, they did want exactly that. Penny Arcade responded in various petulant ways, none of which constituted much of an actual apology.

except they didnt want an apology, or just an apology. They wanted PA to prostrate before them. I would not apologize either to those poor excuses for human beings who have zero respect for anyone, I would treat them in the exact same fashion as they treat everyone else.

I have no dog in this fight as I didnt even know about this controversy until two years after the fact. but to say that the people at PA are smug and pretentious is laughable. They didnt want to do PATV because they were worried they would look like douchebags and in fact had to be convinced to do it. They constantly belittle themselves and distance their role in creating things like PAX and Childs play.

Ryotknife:

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

if all the other party wanted was an apology, that is one thing. quite honestly they probably would have gotten it without much fuss.

Uh, they did want exactly that. Penny Arcade responded in various petulant ways, none of which constituted much of an actual apology.

except they didnt want an apology, or just an apology.[citation needed] They wanted PA to bow down before them.[citation needed] I would not apologize either to those poor excuses for human beings who have zero respect for anyone, I would treat them in the exact same fashion as they treat everyone else.

Do you have evidence for this extraordinary claim that the people who were asking for an apology were secretly asking Penny Arcade to "bow down before them?"

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

Kahunaburger:

Uh, they did want exactly that. Penny Arcade responded in various petulant ways, none of which constituted much of an actual apology.

except they didnt want an apology, or just an apology.[citation needed] They wanted PA to bow down before them.[citation needed] I would not apologize either to those poor excuses for human beings who have zero respect for anyone, I would treat them in the exact same fashion as they treat everyone else.

Do you have evidence for this extraordinary claim that the people who were asking for an apology were secretly asking Penny Arcade to "bow down before them?"

http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/

The person started off rather reasonable. people make mistakes.

then you see the options and you see the persons complete utter disregard for basic human decency. Even better some of those people against the dickwolf joke then started to make their own dickwolf shirts for their own benefit, hypocrisy at its finest!

Ryotknife:

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

except they didnt want an apology, or just an apology.[citation needed] They wanted PA to bow down before them.[citation needed] I would not apologize either to those poor excuses for human beings who have zero respect for anyone, I would treat them in the exact same fashion as they treat everyone else.

Do you have evidence for this extraordinary claim that the people who were asking for an apology were secretly asking Penny Arcade to "bow down before them?"

http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/

The person started off rather reasonable. people make mistakes.

then you see the options and you see the persons complete utter disregard for basic human decency. Even better some of those people against the dickwolf joke then started to make their own dickwolf shirts for their own benefit, hypocrisy at its finest!

This doesn't really relate to your point - it's one individual who is posting this after the Penny Arcade guys have spent quite a while acting unprofessional.

But in the interest of fairness, let's look at the post.

Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation's specifics, "I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I clearly need to educate myself more about this issue. Thank you for telling me about this and raising my awareness. And again, I'm sorry."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. That's pretty much what a professional would have said in their situation.

Ryotknife:

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

except they didnt want an apology, or just an apology.[citation needed] They wanted PA to bow down before them.[citation needed] I would not apologize either to those poor excuses for human beings who have zero respect for anyone, I would treat them in the exact same fashion as they treat everyone else.

Do you have evidence for this extraordinary claim that the people who were asking for an apology were secretly asking Penny Arcade to "bow down before them?"

http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/

The person started off rather reasonable. people make mistakes.

then you see the options and you see the persons complete utter disregard for basic human decency. Even better some of those people against the dickwolf joke then started to make their own dickwolf shirts for their own benefit, hypocrisy at its finest!

I don't even get why people found this one comic so offensive.
They were perfectly fine about the comics about racism, murder, necrophilia, actual rapists... But one comic that was making fun of the idea that in an MMORGP you only help people if they're part of a quest, so if there were 6 prisoners and you tasked to rescue 5, the 6th guy would be left in prions... that's when people became offended. About rape culture. Even though the person in the comic was definitely a guy.

I... I don't get it. I laughed at the comic, because I recognized the behaviour of not doing anything in a game unless a reward was given, not because the word 'rape' was mentioned once.

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

Kahunaburger:

Do you have evidence for this extraordinary claim that the people who were asking for an apology were secretly asking Penny Arcade to "bow down before them?"

http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/

The person started off rather reasonable. people make mistakes.

then you see the options and you see the persons complete utter disregard for basic human decency. Even better some of those people against the dickwolf joke then started to make their own dickwolf shirts for their own benefit, hypocrisy at its finest!

This doesn't really relate to your point - it's one individual who is posting this after the Penny Arcade guys have spent quite a while acting unprofessional.

But in the interest of fairness, let's look at the post.

Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation's specifics, "I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I clearly need to educate myself more about this issue. Thank you for telling me about this and raising my awareness. And again, I'm sorry."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. That's pretty much what a professional would have said in their situation.

i love how you cut out the rest of the options which proved my point. Cherry picking does not make your argument look better.

"Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation's specifics, "I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I clearly need to educate myself more about this issue. Thank you for telling me about this and raising my awareness. And again, I'm sorry." Then, you go and do some research at the library or in some corners of the Internet you apparently haven't spent time in before, and you educate your damn self. If you're polite and catch them on a good day, you might even ask the person who originally informed you of your fuck-up for more resources to use in your self-education. Generally, though, you pry open your brain and dump in some new information about the world and the people in it who aren't exactly like you, and you come out the other side a better person.

Option Two: You act like an asshole. You try and derail the dialog your fans are attempting to have with you via the classic "misunderstanding" that rape culture means forcing men to become rapists. You try to dismiss the fact that rape culture is part of a larger culture of oppression by claiming that people are "choosing" to be offended by your work. You try to make fun of rape survivors and people with PTSD via mocking trigger warnings. You even make a t-shirt using the original rape reference, thus literally profiting off of rape culture."

the fact that the person only gives THOSE two options speaks volumes. basically, agree to all of our demands and bow before our superiority or you are an a-hole. No, "hey, lets have a calm dialogue where both parties come to an agreement".

companies that have ruined lives have gotten away with a more simpler apology.

All that was needed was "We are sorry that the comic offended you, it was not our intention. We will be more careful with this subject in the future."

Bam, done. Not that option 1 bullcrud. PA did not do anything morally wrong. That vocal minority did not need to come at them guns blazing when a simple dialogue would have sufficed. but no, they wanted a CRUSADE! Or more likely, arent used to people who refuse to roll over dead the moment they demand anything.

hell, if they came at me that hot i would not apologize either, and i apologize and take the rap for things OTHER people did just to get people to stop fighting with one another (IRL).

image

This is the face of someone who has just been given a blank $160,000 cheque to complete a Youtube video project that will probably cost no more than a couple of thousand at most leaving the rest as pure personal profit. This is before receiving sponsorship money and the like. Happy? Understatement.

Anyway, I don't buy her spiel at all. Just consider the Lego fire-fighter example she used; somehow it's sexist because the firemen came to the rescue, where was the female representation? Well, seeing how there's 3 female fire-fighters for every 100 male fire-fighters (at very best) we'd need to see 34 little Lego firemen before we came across one little Lego firewoman.

The [Trigger Warning] stuff is extremely pretentious and irritating to boot.

Ryotknife:

Kahunaburger:

Ryotknife:

http://superopinionated.com/2010/10/19/here-is-a-shirt-dickwolves-survivors-guild/

The person started off rather reasonable. people make mistakes.

then you see the options and you see the persons complete utter disregard for basic human decency. Even better some of those people against the dickwolf joke then started to make their own dickwolf shirts for their own benefit, hypocrisy at its finest!

This doesn't really relate to your point - it's one individual who is posting this after the Penny Arcade guys have spent quite a while acting unprofessional.

But in the interest of fairness, let's look at the post.

Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation's specifics, "I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I clearly need to educate myself more about this issue. Thank you for telling me about this and raising my awareness. And again, I'm sorry."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. That's pretty much what a professional would have said in their situation.

i love how you cut out the rest of the options which proved my point. Cherry picking does not make your argument look better.

"Option One: You say, pretty much verbatim and regardless of the situation's specifics, "I am sorry. Upsetting you was not my intention. I clearly need to educate myself more about this issue. Thank you for telling me about this and raising my awareness. And again, I'm sorry."

Above: the apology they needed to give, more or less verbatim. This is 100% reasonable and what Penny Arcade should have done at the first "hey, not cool bro."

Ryotknife:
snip

Stuff that isn't the apology they were suggested to make. And, btw, criticism that is basically correct and (by this time) well deserved on Penny Arcade's part.

Ryotknife:
PA did not do anything morally wrong. That vocal minority did not need to come at them guns blazing when a simple dialogue would have sufficed.

Which exactly is what people asked for - see the quote that you yourself posted. The criticism that went along with the request for an apology was well-deserved after PA had spent months pissing/moaning when they should have apologized and moved on.

Ryotknife:
hell, if they came at me that hot i would not apologize either

See, it's not about "oh noes someone said a mean thing to us after we were douchebags to rape survivors for months, rendering us incapable of acting like adults" - it's about being a professional. A professional would have apologized immediately, and possibly would have yanked the offending strip.

GoaThief:

The [Trigger Warning] stuff is extremely pretentious and irritating to boot.

The trigger warning is there because people are traumatized by traumatic shit, and would often prefer to be able to avoid content that sets them off. It's a basic courtesy along the lines of not posting flashing .gifs everywhere.

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