Dad Alters Donkey Kong for His Daughter - With Pauline as the Hero

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Crono1973:
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Clearly they didn't have equal protection before the act as you can see they were attacked more. The act gives them equal protection to men. That's logical.

No the lawyer didn't have stats but that is someone influential in the business saying what they have learned from experience.

Moonlight Butterfly:

Crono1973:

Moonlight Butterfly:

I didn't say that at all. I said they wanted something fresh. You just picked that out of thin air.

Then what was your point here?

You say they "replaced" Lara Croft with Nathan Drake during a discussion about sexism.

Sigh you said 'There would be an uproar if someone replaced a female character with a male one.'
I said 'But they replaced Lara Croft with Nathan Drake' and Here's the important part 'BUT NO ONE CARED'

You said they didn't replace her, I argued the point. Sexism was never mentioned...

Replace Mario with Peach in Super Mario Bros 3 is not the same as making a new game franchise with a male protagonist.

Moonlight Butterfly:

Crono1973:
snip

Clearly they didn't have equal protection before the act as you can see they were attacked more. The act gives them equal protection to men. That's logical.

No the lawyer didn't have stats but that is someone influential in the business saying what they have learned from experience.

I see, so if there is an imbalance then the minority group should get special laws?

Crono1973:

Moonlight Butterfly:

Crono1973:

Then what was your point here?

You say they "replaced" Lara Croft with Nathan Drake during a discussion about sexism.

Sigh you said 'There would be an uproar if someone replaced a female character with a male one.'
I said 'But they replaced Lara Croft with Nathan Drake' and Here's the important part 'BUT NO ONE CARED'

You said they didn't replace her, I argued the point. Sexism was never mentioned...

Replace Mario with Peach in Super Mario Bros 3 is not the same as making a new game franchise with a male protagonist.

I'd say that it is as it had an obvious connection with the Tomb Raider style. Again I don't think it's bad I'm just using it as an example of no one being bothered by it.

Crono1973:

Moonlight Butterfly:

Crono1973:
snip

Clearly they didn't have equal protection before the act as you can see they were attacked more. The act gives them equal protection to men. That's logical.

No the lawyer didn't have stats but that is someone influential in the business saying what they have learned from experience.

I see, so if there is an imbalance then the minority group should get special laws?

Yes, to make the situation equal. Since if left on it's own the situation is not equal.

Moonlight Butterfly:

Crono1973:

Moonlight Butterfly:

Clearly they didn't have equal protection before the act as you can see they were attacked more. The act gives them equal protection to men. That's logical.

No the lawyer didn't have stats but that is someone influential in the business saying what they have learned from experience.

I see, so if there is an imbalance then the minority group should get special laws?

Yes, to make the situation equal. Since if left on it's own the situation is not equal.

Ok, so are you in favor of laws that balance out the custody issue or laws to balance out college enrollment?

Moonlight Butterfly:
Snip

Crono1973:
Snip

image

Think it might be time to take this to private messages, guys? It's not like you could derail this thread any harder at this point.

Crono1973:
snip

Ok, so are you in favor of laws that balance out the custody issue or laws to balance out college enrollment?

I don't think they are necessary as currently those things aren't skewed in the favour of anyone. The extra 7% could be even be from male female birth rates for that generation/class of kids. It's not really that worrying.

However if the percentage went to like 70% or above then I would be in favour of action towards it but as we can see that isn't the case.

BloatedGuppy:

Moonlight Butterfly:
Snip

Crono1973:
Snip

snip

Think it might be time to take this to private messages, guys? It's not like you could derail this thread any harder at this point.

Can I be the red one? And sorry to derail. I didn't intend it to be that way :)

Like I said I think Pauline is adorable, Especially her climbing animation. I hope Shigeru Miyamoto sees it.

Moonlight Butterfly:

I don't think they are necessary as currently those things aren't skewed in the favour of anyone. The extra 7% could be even be from male female birth rates for that generation/class of kids. It's not really that worrying.

However if the percentage went to like 70% or above then I would be in favour of action towards it but as we can see that isn't the case.

Yes, they are skewed in favor of women. You know that too but then claim the 7% isn't significant. Yes, women still win most custody cases.

The Typical Single Parent is a Mother:

- Approximately 84% of custodial parents are mothers, and
- 16% of custodial parents are fathers

http://singleparents.about.com/od/legalissues/p/portrait.htm

More here: http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/latest-u-s-custody-and-child-support-data/

Reading the posts on this thread have made me sad.

Bara_no_Hime:
snip

For my comment, I was using retro in what is the most popular definition of SNES/Genesis and before.

2) Where the supposed most started with the franchise(which due to popularity was either 4, or as said, 6) doesn't change my point. And yes, Final fantasy 1, 2, 3, and 4 were re-released on the app store. Metroid is not, though not many Nintendo games are(that I know of), which brings me to a question. On what device was Donkey Kong released as an app?

Because I did some research and no mention anywhere of an appstore re-release could be found. So I borrowed a friends Iphone and browsed through(then browsed a computer version just in case) and could not for the life of me find it.

3) That's not actually true. See since you count FF5 as having a female lead I know you consider them a lead even if they aren't the main main character, so I checked some facts. FF1, I'll concede because it occurs to me the playable characters aren't really people. FF2 has the protagonist Maria, who is both a female lead and playable character. FF3 has Refia, a female lead and main character. FF4 has Rosa Farrell, a female lead and main character, and obviously, you already know about 5 and 6. Also app re-release see above.

4) Not atari, was re-released.

So, now I question your context here, if you only are referring to atari games, well you should have specified that rather than just say "retro" which commonly means SNES/Genesis and older. Then there is the App store re-release problem, because, donkey kong does not appear to fit that criteria.

This is neat .w. I like this.

Maevine:
This is neat .w. I like this.

Same here, the little running animation is adorable. Nintendo should see this, then make it an option in the next re-release of this classic title.

Bara_no_Hime:

Hixy:
Really, you had a problem with this retro game because you had to play as Mario and there was no female character instead? That actually causes you some sort of offense? Over sensitive much.

Not just this one. MANY retro games, including Super Mario Brothers and the Legend of Zelda, see women only as passive characters to be kidnapped and held hostage so that the player can rescue them.

These games basically say that women are too helpless to defend themselves - at best - or that women aren't really people and instead are objects to be won.

And video games are not the only media guilty of this **cough Twilight cough** - just one of the most frequent abusers of the cliche.

If you want a more thorough discussion on the topic, here, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q&feature=player_embedded&list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA

And as far as being over-sensitive - how would you like it if the entire games media decided that men were worthless and unable to do anything themselves, and released nothing but games that showed men as weak, stupid, and helpless. For years. Would you like that? No? Then don't call me over-sensitive.

Edit: Before anyone misinterprets this, let me add the following:
One game using this trope, meh, no problem. Most games using it - big problem.
My point was that, in the case of retro games like this altered version of Donkey Kong, it is insanely easy to fix the problem. Just make the protagonist optional, as this Dad did. Suddenly the game shows both Jump Man and Pauline to be equal - equally likely to be kidnapped by a giant monkey, and equally likely to come to the rescue.

If other Damsel-in-Distress retro games did this, then suddenly they are no longer Damsel-in-Distress games. They show equality rather than sexism. All by making which sprite is the kidnap victim and which one is the protagonist optional. Just. That. Easy.

You know what causes me offense Al Bundy, Homer Simpson, the main character form Family Guy(didn't watch that too much).
Bart is the mischievous brother, Lisa and Maggie and Marge are absolute angels almost every time with few exceptions.
I only watched a few episodes of CSI and in everyone of them a guy was the criminal, there was one episode where a son becomes a serial killer because of his mother's behavior and her hatred towards him because she was supposed to have twins and he was the only one to survive but she isn't blamed at all and suffers no permanent consequence.
In DMC why does the mother have to be an angel and the father a daemon? Why not the other way around?
And I think all this is actually misogyny. Wouldn't you like Dante to be called "Son of Eve" instead of "Son of Sparda"?
Would you not like to see Lisa doing the badass things Bart does? How about Marge being a slob and irresponsible?
Even if a female character is an action heroine she is usually infallible? Why can't she be both a great fighter and have several faults? Why can't the entire plot be her fault like in Prince of Persia? Would you not like to see Simpsons Movie 2 where the plot is Marge or Lisa's fault instead of Homer's?
And while we are on this topic why not a female Jason or Freddy?
Why not a female Hannibal?

So far,I only know two shows that allow female characters this kind of range;
Two Broke Girls and Melessa and Joey.

charge52:
**snip**

This is the problem arguing minutia - it gets away from the point.

The fact that later SNES games had female protagonists is a good thing. I'm happy about that. Never said I wasn't. And the fact that even SNES era games with female protagonists can be counted on two hands actually supports my point.

You have effectively been calling me out on a bit of hyperbole (that 1% of retro games had a female protagonist rather than 0% games). So yes, I was wrong about that. I was exaggerating to make a point. But your response kinda proves my larger point - how few there are that you can literally name them all.

Now name every single male protagonist in all retro gaming. I'll wait. See you in about a week.

And yes, that was also hyperbole. Needing a full week to list them, I mean. If you hadn't noticed, I tend to talk that way.

My point is, and always has been, that editing Donkey Kong so that Pauline can be the hero is a great idea. There are tons of retro games that wouldn't be changed at all by simply switching the sprite. Not all - I never said all - but many.

Pac Man wasn't significantly altered by creating Ms. Pack Man - the same game with a female protagonist.

As demonstrated, Donkey Kong isn't significantly altered by having Pauline be the hero.

There are hundreds of other very simple retro titles that could get this treatment and not change in the slightest. I it would both allow for more female protagonists and get women out of demeaning Damsel roles.

And I'm not saying that men shouldn't be playable. I have always suggested a choice of sprite at the beginning, so that the player could choose the original male character or the sprite-reversed female character. If you want to play as Jump Man or whomever, you still can. And I can play as Pauline.

What do you have against simple to add gameplay options that don't affect you at all?

It's stuff like this that makes me want to be a dad.

Hixy:
But the entire games media does not do that, not at all in fact. Many games have female leads or main characters such as . . . the final fantasy series, ghost in the shell, buffy (it had games), metroid, mirrors edge, mass effect, oni, perferct dark, silent hill, xena (had a game), streets of rage, golden axe, resident evil, portal, alice and gears of war to name a few. Tomb raider, bayonetta and that X blade thing but i will forget these because they heavily sexualise the characters which is it's own issue. That's a good mix of new and retro right there. Yes, I am aware Bella Swan is the worst thing to happen to feminism in the last 20 years I totally agree with you there. The Damsel in Distress theme was around before the classical era and is the basis of a great deal of mythology, it has pervaded through literature since that time in some form or another. Many of the works based on this are classics and will continue to be considered so even if the societal view of woman and men has changed. I think it would be ridiculous to call them sexist because you should consider the time they were created. Just like I think it's ridiculous to call the 1980's 2D platformer sexist because no one was considering that angle of the game then, no one considered the societal impact of games at all. The industry is changing but you have to let it and crying foul on stupid things just cheapens your point.

Thanks for the link but if I want 25 minutes of my life wasted I can think of better ways than listening to an uninformed charlatan.

Completely agree with your point, but Mass Effect doesn't belong in that group of games you mentioned. And that's because games where the story centers around one main character, and that character's look can be created by the player from the ground up, that's not an example of the game being progressive toward any group, that's it giving you the tools to be progressive if you feel like it, and if you don't, it'll satisfy you too. The difference between that and games like Streets of Rage is that those games center around a team and you're playing as a member of that team. So whether you're playing through as Blaze Fielding, Adam Hunter or Axel Stone, you're playing the game of that trio bringing down the Syndicate. The intros and the endings to that and Golden Axe constantly remind you that while you're not currently playing as them, all three characters are supposed to be taking part in this story. When you're playing as Commander Shepard, no other version exists but the one you created. Everything revolves around your Shepard. So if you never wanted to create a female Shepard or you never wanted to create a male Shepard, you can play the game to the end of time and it will never acknowledge either one's existence.

Moonlight Butterfly:

Crono1973:

Moonlight Butterfly:

Sigh you said 'There would be an uproar if someone replaced a female character with a male one.'
I said 'But they replaced Lara Croft with Nathan Drake' and Here's the important part 'BUT NO ONE CARED'

You said they didn't replace her, I argued the point. Sexism was never mentioned...

Replace Mario with Peach in Super Mario Bros 3 is not the same as making a new game franchise with a male protagonist.

I'd say that it is as it had an obvious connection with the Tomb Raider style. Again I don't think it's bad I'm just using it as an example of no one being bothered by it.

That's like saying that Hancock was replacing the existing Superman with a black one.

Bara_no_Hime:

charge52:
**snip**

This is the problem arguing minutia - it gets away from the point.

The fact that later SNES games had female protagonists is a good thing. I'm happy about that. Never said I wasn't. And the fact that even SNES era games with female protagonists can be counted on two hands actually supports my point.

You have effectively been calling me out on a bit of hyperbole (that 1% of retro games had a female protagonist rather than 0% games). So yes, I was wrong about that. I was exaggerating to make a point. But your response kinda proves my larger point - how few there are that you can literally name them all.

I hope this is another hyperbole, because if you want, I can, and will list far more. I was primarily focusing on the games the previous commentor had listed.

Now name every single male protagonist in all retro gaming. I'll wait. See you in about a week.

Challenge accepte-

And yes, that was also hyperbole. Needing a full week to list them, I mean. If you hadn't noticed, I tend to talk that way.

Damn.

My point is, and always has been, that editing Donkey Kong so that Pauline can be the hero is a great idea. There are tons of retro games that wouldn't be changed at all by simply switching the sprite. Not all - I never said all - but many.

Pac Man wasn't significantly altered by creating Ms. Pack Man - the same game with a female protagonist.

As demonstrated, Donkey Kong isn't significantly altered by having Pauline be the hero.

There are hundreds of other very simple retro titles that could get this treatment and not change in the slightest. I it would both allow for more female protagonists and get women out of demeaning Damsel roles.

And I'm not saying that men shouldn't be playable. I have always suggested a choice of sprite at the beginning, so that the player could choose the original male character or the sprite-reversed female character. If you want to play as Jump Man or whomever, you still can. And I can play as Pauline.

What do you have against simple to add gameplay options that don't affect you at all?

Oh I have no objection to this, in fact for the most part I agree with it. I was just arguing whether or not the games that he listed were retro, and points brought up after the fact.

That's pretty cool. I wish I had those modding skills.

Also, of course on the Escapist (perhaps the word "Escapist" should be replaced by "internet" here?), a feel-good story about a dad modding a game for his daughter would turn into a feminism argument...

charge52:

Now name every single male protagonist in all retro gaming. I'll wait. See you in about a week.

Challenge accepte-

And yes, that was also hyperbole. Needing a full week to list them, I mean. If you hadn't noticed, I tend to talk that way.

Damn.
Oh I have no objection to this, in fact for the most part I agree with it.

^^;; Well, if you really want to, you can. List them, I mean.

The point I was attempting to get across was that one list is much, much larger than the other. And since you agree with me about that... yeah, actually having both lists (all retro female protagonists vs all retro male protagonists) would actually be pretty neat.

Probably should create a new thread for that if you are actually serious about posting it on the Escapist, though. We've already drifted off topic here, and that would be a whole new kettle of fish. Better to have a new thread.

Darken12:
Nope. You will never convince me that something that is directly related to feminism in gaming is as vague and unrelated as the pope going 'yay god' when a random life is saved. Just nope. No sell. Not gonna dignify that travesty of an analogy with an inch of believability.

That's funny because the Pope believes that God is directly related to everything. You see a female and automatically include her in the feminist cause, he see's a person and automatically includes them as one of God's creations. If you can't see the parallel then I give up.

Darken12:
More female characters in gaming is a victory for feminism, regardless of the reasoning behind it. This case might be a very tiny victory, but it's a victory nonetheless, because we're seeing something we strive towards.

You're right, it is a victory for feminism. I might be more inclined to say if anything it was a victory for equality (which is the goal) and not so much for the feminism the movement as they had nothing to do with it, but I can't disagree that this is something for feminism to be happy with.

Darken12:
That is completely separate from the discussion of whether that's a victory for feminism or not. That is a personal critique I am making of the gamer community in general, more precisely of an attitude I often see in cases like this one.

That was why I addressed that point separately. You made it a part of the discussion and if you are going to say that "claiming feminism wasn't a part of something means that everyone is going to think feminism is evil" then expect to be called on it especially when you then go on to contradict yourself.

Anyone else think it's weird that he's modding a game for his daughter that's over 30 years old? You think she wouldn't prefer something a little newer?

Besides that it's cute I guess.

Jenvas1306:

Shadu:
Personally, I think I would've been a bit sad if my dad had done this for me. It's sweet, really, but I would've probably thought something to the effect of "But dad...I liked playing as Mario."

But then, I was never into the deep personalization thing.

Thankfully, this dad was not mine and his daughter is not me. I would hate to think he did all that work only for me to be, at best, meh about it.

well his daughter seemingly wanted that and isnt that just what female gamers want? the simple option of the choice.
it also shows that pauline can climb ladders too and who knows what that ape would do with the little plumber?

Hey, if she wanted it, then by all means, go for it. And I am a girl gamer, FYI. I personally would rather watch a dude run around that a chick, but I don't really care if I have a choice one way or the other.

That is just me though. And I have been reliably informed that I am a bit odd.

OlasDAlmighty:
Anyone else think it's weird that he's modding a game for his daughter that's over 30 years old? You think she wouldn't prefer something a little newer?

Besides that it's cute I guess.

She's three years old. It's in the video description on YouTube.

gibboss28:
Reading the posts on this thread have made me sad.

*reads first post*
D'aww.

*reads proceeding posts*
Eeeh....

MagunBFP:
That's funny because the Pope believes that God is directly related to everything. You see a female and automatically include her in the feminist cause, he see's a person and automatically includes them as one of God's creations. If you can't see the parallel then I give up.

Then give up, because I find the comparison to be completely ridiculous. If you had said something like "the pope going 'yay god' when an atheist inadvertently does something to further religion" then maaaaaybe you'd have a case (since the thing he's praising is actually directly related to his interests). But as it stands? Nope.

MagunBFP:
You're right, it is a victory for feminism. I might be more inclined to say if anything it was a victory for equality (which is the goal) and not so much for the feminism the movement as they had nothing to do with it, but I can't disagree that this is something for feminism to be happy with.

It is also a victory for equality, yes. They are not mutually incompatible.

MagunBFP:
That was why I addressed that point separately. You made it a part of the discussion and if you are going to say that "claiming feminism wasn't a part of something means that everyone is going to think feminism is evil" then expect to be called on it especially when you then go on to contradict yourself.

That is also not something I ever said. What I said was "fervently denying the possibility that positive things like these might be a good thing for feminism perpetuates the idea that feminism is harmful and purely negative." This is simple logic. If you deny every possible instance for feminism to be positive and harmless, then all you're left is feminism as neutral or feminism as negative and harmful. This isn't a controversial statement, it's painfully simple reasoning. If you don't acknowledge the possibility that feminism can bring positive and harmless changes like this one, you are never going to see feminism as anything but negative (or neutral at best).

FizzyIzze:

OlasDAlmighty:
Anyone else think it's weird that he's modding a game for his daughter that's over 30 years old? You think she wouldn't prefer something a little newer?

Besides that it's cute I guess.

She's three years old. It's in the video description on YouTube.

image

I mean the game. Donkey Kong came out in 1981.

Why mod a 32 year old retro game for her to play when they sell thousands of new games every year aimed at little girls that she'd probably enjoy more? It seems to me the Dad was doing this more for himself than for his daughter.

FizzyIzze:
A guy named Mike Mika has altered the ROM of the original Donkey Kong arcade game to show Pauline as the hero, instead of "Jump Man", aka Mario.

OMFG REVERSE SEXISM! WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!?!?!!!1!

That's actually pretty sweet, though.

OlasDAlmighty:
snip

Haha that was great. Nice to have a bit of levity in this thread.

I'm sure you're right, it was probably mostly for him but he works in the game industry. I view it like a parent passing on their classic LPs to their kid. I think most newer games that have female characters in them are probably inappropriate for or beyond the skills of a 3-year old. It was a good choice as DK handles consistently well and it's very simple to play.

Darken12:

MagunBFP:
That's funny because the Pope believes that God is directly related to everything. You see a female and automatically include her in the feminist cause, he see's a person and automatically includes them as one of God's creations. If you can't see the parallel then I give up.

Then give up, because I find the comparison to be completely ridiculous. If you had said something like "the pope going 'yay god' when an atheist inadvertently does something to further religion" then maaaaaybe you'd have a case (since the thing he's praising is actually directly related to his interests). But as it stands? Nope.

An atheist picks numbers for the lottery.
He knows that they likelihood of him winning is ridiculously slim, but buys the ticket anyway.
He then wins the jackpot, at which he expresses sincere surprise at beating the odds.

Despite the lottery being a chanced based operation, the religious guy over there will say that it was God reaching out to say "believe in me, and your hardships shall be rewarded".

Now, this man in the OP had a daughter that wanted to play as a girl.
He spends the time to make his child's desire come true over the course of a few days.
Then, his daughter was able to play as a female protagonist rescuing the prior male lead character in a role reversal.

Despite the action simply being an act of good will from parent to child (apparently, if an earlier post was to be believed, feminism wasn't at all the reason), the feminist over there will say that it was a victory for feminism.

One of Christianity's goals is to amass more followers and "show them the light".
One of feminism's goals is to rework social constructs and break the mold.
However, in each of the above scenarios, this was not what was intended.

Any additional meaning is the act of Apophenia on your behalf.
In case you don't know the definition of that word, it's to make connections between points that were not there in the first place. The lottery was not linked to God, the edit of Donkey Kong was not linked to Feminism. Can they be? Sure, if you wish it to be so and use them as examples for people working on things to actually showcase faith and feminism.

Until then, the only "victors" here are one rich atheist and a happy little two year old girl.
If you still don't understand, please don't bother replying. This is almost as simple as I can make it for you and I don't want for any more words to be wasted by either side.

NightmareExpress:
Any additional meaning is the act of Apophenia on your behalf.
In case you don't know the definition of that word, it's to make connections between points that were not there in the first place.

I eagerly await the day PA uses the word logoplegia. In case it's contagious.

NightmareExpress:
Can they be? Sure, if you wish it to be so and use them as examples for people working on things to actually showcase faith and feminism.

Good, because that's exactly what I was aiming for.

Darken12:

MagunBFP:
That was why I addressed that point separately. You made it a part of the discussion and if you are going to say that "claiming feminism wasn't a part of something means that everyone is going to think feminism is evil" then expect to be called on it especially when you then go on to contradict yourself.

That is also not something I ever said. What I said was "fervently denying the possibility that positive things like these might be a good thing for feminism perpetuates the idea that feminism is harmful and purely negative." This is simple logic. If you deny every possible instance for feminism to be positive and harmless, then all you're left is feminism as neutral or feminism as negative and harmful. This isn't a controversial statement, it's painfully simple reasoning. If you don't acknowledge the possibility that feminism can bring positive and harmless changes like this one, you are never going to see feminism as anything but negative (or neutral at best).

What you said was...

Darken12:
...By denying feminism association with positive things that harm nobody and make people happy, such as this game mod, we are supporting the idea that feminism only wants to destroy and harm, and that it is somehow incompatible with positive, harmless change.

You said in that same post

Darken12:
Saying "no no guys, this awesome feminist thing has nothing to do with feminism! the person who did this wasn't a feminist! in fact, they never had a feminist thought in their heads! they just did it for X reason, I swear!" perpetuates the notion that feminism is always bad, always the enemy, and incompatible with things we can all sympathise with, like good parenting or love for your children.

So tell me again how you weren't saying "saying that Feminism wasn't involved makes Feminism out to be the enemy".

Saying Feminism wasn't involved in this doesn't make Feminism any more or less positive and non-involvement definitely doesn't make Feminism bad, but having said that we have moved well beyond the topic at hand so if you wish to continue this discussion send me a PM.

Man does sweet thing for daughter.

How is it that there are people who are actually OFFENDED by this?

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