Mr Plinkett Last Jedi Review

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crimson5pheonix:

That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.

Right...

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had. Unfortunately he got stuck in a poorly plotted movie.

Holdo's mistake is not letting Poe in on the plan, and it's dubious as to whether that's a mistake (including whether Holdo fits into the film's themes of failure - on the fence with that). In contrast, Poe goes against the chain of command, and loses fighters and bombers for it. He goes against the chain of command again, and ends up with more people getting killed. Poe's failures outweigh Holdo's.

In any case, with the fleet practically destroyed by the end of the run, losing the ships at the beginning is largely meaningless and he got a dreadnought for his trouble.

The Resistance fleet has three ships. Two run out of fuel and are destroyed with only one casualty per ship. If Poe hadn't made a mess of things, far more people would have survived the destruction of the Raddus, including the fighters and bombers, which would have been invaluable if they needed to cover their escape and/or be used on Crait. In contrast, destroying the dreadnought doesn't net the Resistance any short-term gain, and it's made clear that in the context of this point in time, the First Order can afford to lose far more than the Resistance.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.

Right...

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had. Unfortunately he got stuck in a poorly plotted movie.

Holdo's mistake is not letting Poe in on the plan, and it's dubious as to whether that's a mistake (including whether Holdo fits into the film's themes of failure - on the fence with that). In contrast, Poe goes against the chain of command, and loses fighters and bombers for it. He goes against the chain of command again, and ends up with more people getting killed. Poe's failures outweigh Holdo's.

Well since Holdo's failures got them there in the first place and set the stage for the actions, I'd hold her accountable above all others. Besides, Poe proves that he is capable of something given the chance. Whether you think his early heroics are showing off or not, they are a display of skill and competence at his job. Holdo has nothing to show for how she got her position.

In any case, with the fleet practically destroyed by the end of the run, losing the ships at the beginning is largely meaningless and he got a dreadnought for his trouble.

The Resistance fleet has three ships. Two run out of fuel and are destroyed with only one casualty per ship. If Poe hadn't made a mess of things, far more people would have survived the destruction of the Raddus, including the fighters and bombers, which would have been invaluable if they needed to cover their escape and/or be used on Crait. In contrast, destroying the dreadnought doesn't net the Resistance any short-term gain, and it's made clear that in the context of this point in time, the First Order can afford to lose far more than the Resistance.

Only if they took said fighters and bombers with them. Those were carrier ships destroyed.

crimson5pheonix:

Well since Holdo's failures got them there in the first place and set the stage for the actions, I'd hold her accountable above all others.

Holdo's "failures?"

Holdo's plan would have got them to Crait safely is Poe hadn't screwed it up.

Besides, Poe proves that he is capable of something given the chance. Whether you think his early heroics are showing off or not, they are a display of skill and competence at his job. Holdo has nothing to show for how she got her position.

-Fighter pilots and admirals have different jobs.

-Poe has far more media dedicated to him than Holdo, so of course there's going to be more material showing his skills. This is Holdo's first introduction.

-It's the same lack of information that every other Alliance general has had upon introduction.

Only if they took said fighters and bombers with them. Those were carrier ships destroyed.

Wrong.

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ninka (corvette)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil_(ship) (cargo frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anodyne_(Nebulon-C) (escort frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raddus_(MC85_Star_Cruiser) (heavy cruiser)

So, no. The Raddus is the only ship approaching carrier status.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

Well since Holdo's failures got them there in the first place and set the stage for the actions, I'd hold her accountable above all others.

Holdo's "failures?"

Holdo's plan would have got them to Crait safely is Poe hadn't screwed it up.

Holdo's job was to command, and she failed to command. Poe's job is to shoot things. He shoots things.

Besides, Poe proves that he is capable of something given the chance. Whether you think his early heroics are showing off or not, they are a display of skill and competence at his job. Holdo has nothing to show for how she got her position.

-Fighter pilots and admirals have different jobs.

-Poe has far more media dedicated to him than Holdo, so of course there's going to be more material showing his skills. This is Holdo's first introduction.

-It's the same lack of information that every other Alliance general has had upon introduction.

Deal with it. We're told Poe is a hotshot pilot and he's shown in his onscreen appearances as a hotshot pilot. We're told Holdo is a trusted commander high up in the tree and her onscreen appearance is her being incompetent. I can't help it if the movie is bad about telling instead of showing.

Only if they took said fighters and bombers with them. Those were carrier ships destroyed.

Wrong.

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ninka (corvette)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vigil_(ship) (cargo frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anodyne_(Nebulon-C) (escort frigate)

https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raddus_(MC85_Star_Cruiser) (heavy cruiser)

So, no. The Raddus is the only ship approaching carrier status.

Do they not have holds to hold fighters and/or bombers? Were they all on the Raddus?

Oh wait, by your own links, the squads that were partially destroyed by Poe's play were aboard the Ninka. Assuming they consolidated all the fighters and bombers to the Raddus (which I'm not sure about, they mostly evacuated personnel between ships instead of equipment, which does make sense), then there would have to have been enough room on the Raddus for all the smaller ships from the lost carriers (and I'm going to call them carriers if they were carrying smaller ships since that was clearly a role they had).

Or in other words, unless the other ships were very empty, a lot of the fighters and bombers were going to be lost anyway. Except they wouldn't have done anything to the First Order. Even if Poe's hail mary was minor, it is better than literally nothing. So retroactively, Poe did nothing wrong.

crimson5pheonix:

Holdo's job was to command, and she failed to command.

Holdo commanded fine, mostly. Her one failure was not telling a recently demoted commander a plan because he insisted he be let in the loop.

Poe's job is to shoot things. He shoots things.

And in doing so, got dozens of Resistance pilots killed for a kill that wasn't an equitable exchange given the differences in manpower.

Deal with it. We're told Poe is a hotshot pilot and he's shown in his onscreen appearances as a hotshot pilot. We're told Holdo is a trusted commander high up in the tree and her onscreen appearance is her being incompetent.

Except it DOESN'T show her as being incompetent. Unless telling Poe about her plan that has credence for confidentiality is the be-all and end-all of competency.

Holdo's plan would have worked if not for Poe. Even when Poe throws a wrench in the plan, she gets back in control of her ship. After that, she sacrifices herself and the Raddus because the ramifications of Poe's screwup are being felt. While I'm on the fence as to whether Holdo has an arc, and whether her actions fit into the film's themes, she's in no way incompetent.

Do they not have holds to hold fighters and/or bombers? Were they all on the Raddus?

One ship had a fighter wing apart from the Raddus.

Oh wait, by your own links, the squads that were partially destroyed by Poe's play were aboard the Ninka. Assuming they consolidated all the fighters and bombers to the Raddus (which I'm not sure about, they mostly evacuated personnel between ships instead of equipment, which does make sense), then there would have to have been enough room on the Raddus for all the smaller ships from the lost carriers (and I'm going to call them carriers if they were carrying smaller ships since that was clearly a role they had).

The Raddus is about ten times the size of the Ninka, so there's a strong chance they could fit. Or if they couldn't, they could either:

a) Still evacuate the pilots

b) Keep flying the fighters themselves or have them scatter (A-Wings and MG-100s are equipped with their own hyperdrive)

Also, non-carrier ships still carry aircraft at times (e.g. helicopters). Frigates and destroyers don't magically become carriers because of this, since their roles are completely different. Even the Raddus isn't a carrier (it's a cruiser).

Or in other words, unless the other ships were very empty, a lot of the fighters and bombers were going to be lost anyway. Except they wouldn't have done anything to the First Order. Even if Poe's hail mary was minor, it is better than literally nothing. So retroactively, Poe did nothing wrong.

No.

Even if the Raddus somehow didn't have room to store all the other craft, even if those other craft couldn't scatter or keep flying, those pilots would still be alive. The Resistance is short on both manpower and hardware, while the First Order (apparently) lacks for neither.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

Holdo's job was to command, and she failed to command.

Holdo commanded fine, mostly. Her one failure was not telling a recently demoted commander a plan because he insisted he be let in the loop.

Poe's job is to shoot things. He shoots things.

And in doing so, got dozens of Resistance pilots killed for a kill that wasn't an equitable exchange given the differences in manpower.

If a commander faces an armed insurrection and underlings subverting her plans (unknowingly or otherwise), that commander has failed.

If a commander proclaims they will take an enemy out and does so, they have succeeded. Even a poor success is better than an abject failure. Good intentions can only go so far in the face of results.

Deal with it. We're told Poe is a hotshot pilot and he's shown in his onscreen appearances as a hotshot pilot. We're told Holdo is a trusted commander high up in the tree and her onscreen appearance is her being incompetent.

Except it DOESN'T show her as being incompetent. Unless telling Poe about her plan that has credence for confidentiality is the be-all and end-all of competency.

Holdo's plan would have worked if not for Poe. Even when Poe throws a wrench in the plan, she gets back in control of her ship. After that, she sacrifices herself and the Raddus because the ramifications of Poe's screwup are being felt. While I'm on the fence as to whether Holdo has an arc, and whether her actions fit into the film's themes, she's in no way incompetent.

Really? It doesn't look like she succeeded from where I'm sitting.

Do they not have holds to hold fighters and/or bombers? Were they all on the Raddus?

One ship had a fighter wing apart from the Raddus.

Oh wait, by your own links, the squads that were partially destroyed by Poe's play were aboard the Ninka. Assuming they consolidated all the fighters and bombers to the Raddus (which I'm not sure about, they mostly evacuated personnel between ships instead of equipment, which does make sense), then there would have to have been enough room on the Raddus for all the smaller ships from the lost carriers (and I'm going to call them carriers if they were carrying smaller ships since that was clearly a role they had).

The Raddus is about ten times the size of the Ninka, so there's a strong chance they could fit. Or if they couldn't, they could either:

a) Still evacuate the pilots

b) Keep flying the fighters themselves or have them scatter (A-Wings and MG-100s are equipped with their own hyperdrive)

Also, non-carrier ships still carry aircraft at times (e.g. helicopters). Frigates and destroyers don't magically become carriers because of this, since their roles are completely different. Even the Raddus isn't a carrier (it's a cruiser).

Because fighters and bombers are known for their long range capabilities (while there are long range bombers irl, they're more fuel tanks than bombs while the bombers shown in the movie are basically self propelled milk crates with nothing but explosives). And scattering them totally keeps them as part of your battle force. While that plan might have merit, it's the longest of long shots. Meanwhile, Poe's play may not have had much of an impact, it did have one, which is by definition better than nothing.

Or in other words, unless the other ships were very empty, a lot of the fighters and bombers were going to be lost anyway. Except they wouldn't have done anything to the First Order. Even if Poe's hail mary was minor, it is better than literally nothing. So retroactively, Poe did nothing wrong.

No.

Even if the Raddus somehow didn't have room to store all the other craft, even if those other craft couldn't scatter or keep flying, those pilots would still be alive. The Resistance is short on both manpower and hardware, while the First Order (apparently) lacks for neither.

I mean, we can get into the poor writing that is the supposed main government of the galaxy being underpowered compared to what is now a rebel uprising just to keep the "heroes" as the scrappy underdogs. We can also get into the fact that by the standards of dramatic writing, the actual protagonist of these movies is Kylo Ren, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that Poe set out to strike a blow against the FO with the tools he had available and did so. Even through incompetent command. Said incompetent command may have had a brilliant tactical play, but didn't have the skill to pull it off. So Poe did the only thing he could do, fight. And he does it well.

#PoeDidNothingWrong

crimson5pheonix:

If a commander faces an armed insurrection and underlings subverting her plans (unknowingly or otherwise), that commander has failed.

Highly debatable. Especially here, since the underlings are clearly in the wrong.

If a commander proclaims they will take an enemy out and does so, they have succeeded.

That claim ignores any kind of context. If applied to the real-world, that can be used to justify any kind of action regardless of cost as long as damage is inflicted on the enemy.

Even a poor success is better than an abject failure. Good intentions can only go so far in the face of results.

So, by this own train of thought, Poe's good intentions only go so far in the face of results, which is a non-equitable exchange of resources with the First Order, where the Resistance loses far more than the First Order in a costly offensive.

Really? It doesn't look like she succeeded from where I'm sitting.

And I never claimed she "succeeded," I stated that she would have if not for Poe.

I mean, we can get into the poor writing that is the supposed main government of the galaxy being underpowered compared to what is now a rebel uprising just to keep the "heroes" as the scrappy underdogs.

That says more about worldbuilding than writing. And the New Republic has just lost its capital, its government, and the majority of its fleet. Much as I wish the sequel trilogy wasn't intent on rehashing the original trilogy, the dye was cast back in TFA.

We can also get into the fact that by the standards of dramatic writing, the actual protagonist of these movies is Kylo Ren, but that's neither here nor there.

Right...

The point is that Poe set out to strike a blow against the FO with the tools he had available and did so.

At the cost of numerous fighters and bombers, which cost the Resistance far more than than the First Order proportionally.

Even through incompetent command.

So now Leia's incompetent as well?

Leia was in the right. Poe wasted their aerospace assets, and did so while ignoring the commands of a general.

Said incompetent command may have had a brilliant tactical play, but didn't have the skill to pull it off. So Poe did the only thing he could do, fight.

Poe doing the "only thing he could do" is what squanders the play.

And he does it well.

So, let's see...

-Wastes the Resistance's entire bomber wing and a sizable portion of its fighter wing on an assault that yields little benefit.

-Stages an uprising that results in even more Resistance deaths.

Yep, really did a good job there.

#PoeDidNothingWrong

See above.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

If a commander faces an armed insurrection and underlings subverting her plans (unknowingly or otherwise), that commander has failed.

Highly debatable. Especially here, since the underlings are clearly in the wrong.

If a commander proclaims they will take an enemy out and does so, they have succeeded.

That claim ignores any kind of context. If applied to the real-world, that can be used to justify any kind of action regardless of cost as long as damage is inflicted on the enemy.

I don't see the underling in the wrong, I see the underling under terrible command trying to rectify the situation. A much more competent underling.

Even a poor success is better than an abject failure. Good intentions can only go so far in the face of results.

So, by this own train of thought, Poe's good intentions only go so far in the face of results, which is a non-equitable exchange of resources with the First Order, where the Resistance loses far more than the First Order in a costly offensive.

I want to hold on this point for a moment. I know that relative losses are more important than absolute losses, especially in asymmetric warfare like how these movies play out, but at some point you have to compare relative losses to absolute losses to gauge the feasibility of your war effort when taking your grand strategy in mind. The rebels want to remove the FO's ability to act in known space. That requires them to vanquish a majority of the FO forces.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crimson_Squadron
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cobalt_Squadron

Crimson squadron was 5 bombers crewed by 5 people each and were totally wiped out. Cobalt squadron has basically no information but must have included all the fighters and a couple of bombers. Fighters, to my knowledge, have a crew of 1. So Poe's losses couldn't number higher than 50.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandator_IV-class_Siege_Dreadnought

The dreadnought they shot down was 7 and a half kilometers long and crewed by 215,000.

If you look at an absolute tally of 4,300:1 kills and a price tag ratio that I wouldn't want to count if I could, and say "these are unacceptable losses that will lose us the war", you've already lost to numbers. Their grand strategy cannot succeed against a material advantage that strong.

In the words of Xykon from OotS: "Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed."

The rebels are against such a force. Logistically they cannot possibly win. Granted this is SW, so the actual military forces don't matter compared to the big heroes dueling the big villains.

Really? It doesn't look like she succeeded from where I'm sitting.

And I never claimed she "succeeded," I stated that she would have if not for Poe.

Which is to say she failed. She couldn't do her job on screen.

I mean, we can get into the poor writing that is the supposed main government of the galaxy being underpowered compared to what is now a rebel uprising just to keep the "heroes" as the scrappy underdogs.

That says more about worldbuilding than writing. And the New Republic has just lost its capital, its government, and the majority of its fleet. Much as I wish the sequel trilogy wasn't intent on rehashing the original trilogy, the dye was cast back in TFA.

Granted. FO alpha strike OP, pls nerf plox.

We can also get into the fact that by the standards of dramatic writing, the actual protagonist of these movies is Kylo Ren, but that's neither here nor there.

Right...

Exactly. Which is why it's frustrating to see the movies like this, I would love for that to be played well. Have the villain as the one growing and learning instead of the hero, make it their journey instead. That's a really interesting way to write a story. It's a shame the villain is Kylo Ren.

The point is that Poe set out to strike a blow against the FO with the tools he had available and did so.

At the cost of numerous fighters and bombers, which cost the Resistance far more than than the First Order proportionally.

Even through incompetent command.

So now Leia's incompetent as well?

Leia was in the right. Poe wasted their aerospace assets, and did so while ignoring the commands of a general.

Said incompetent command may have had a brilliant tactical play, but didn't have the skill to pull it off. So Poe did the only thing he could do, fight.

Poe doing the "only thing he could do" is what squanders the play.

And he does it well.

So, let's see...

-Wastes the Resistance's entire bomber wing and a sizable portion of its fighter wing on an assault that yields little benefit.

-Stages an uprising that results in even more Resistance deaths.

Yep, really did a good job there.

#PoeDidNothingWrong

See above.

You see above. That's not an uphill battle the rebels have, it's a statistical impossibility. And not a "don't tell me the odds" kind of statistical impossibility.

crimson5pheonix:

I don't see the underling in the wrong, I see the underling under terrible command trying to rectify the situation. A much more competent underling.

Except the command is good, and the underling blows the plan to pieces.

Even if you want to lay blame on Holdo, Poe is still throwing chain of command to the wind.

I want to hold on this point for a moment. I know that relative losses are more important than absolute losses, especially in asymmetric warfare like how these movies play out, but at some point you have to compare relative losses to absolute losses to gauge the feasibility of your war effort when taking your grand strategy in mind. The rebels want to remove the FO's ability to act in known space. That requires them to vanquish a majority of the FO forces.

Semantics, but not necessarily. The Rebellion didn't need to wipe out the majority of the Empire's forces, they just needed to wipe out Palpatine. After that, the Empire self-disintegrated. Arguably, the First Order is already down that path after the loss of Snoke.

If you look at an absolute tally of 4,300:1 kills and a price tag ratio that I wouldn't want to count if I could, and say "these are unacceptable losses that will lose us the war", you've already lost to numbers. Their grand strategy cannot succeed against a material advantage that strong.

Alright, but what's the Resistance's alternative? Lie down and let the First Order rule?

Obviously there's some ratio that favours the Resistance (no-one's complaining about Starkiller Base's costs), but at this point in time, the Resistance is down to a handful of ships, without safe harbour, without support, facing an enemy powerful enough to start establishing control over swathes of the galaxy. Far better to try and improve your odds than squander what remaining forces you have.

The rebels are against such a force. Logistically they cannot possibly win. Granted this is SW, so the actual military forces don't matter compared to the big heroes dueling the big villains.

That's up to Ep. IX to declare. TLJ shows that the actions of the Resistance and Luke have already reached elements of the galaxy's populace (tying in with the themes again). But the idea of a war coming down to the actions of a few individuals isn't endemic to Star Wars (see Lord of the Rings for instance).

Which is to say she failed. She couldn't do her job on screen.

Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.

Exactly. Which is why it's frustrating to see the movies like this, I would love for that to be played well. Have the villain as the one growing and learning instead of the hero, make it their journey instead. That's a really interesting way to write a story. It's a shame the villain is Kylo Ren.

Except Kylo Ren does grow (or change). That isn't even unusual - both Luke and Vader changed over the course of the OT. Key difference is that Vader and Ren are going in opposite directions (in terms of light-dark).

crimson5pheonix:
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.

Sure. And so also would Sauron have killed the Fellowship of the Ring and overrun Middle Earth if it wasn't the fact the writer wouldn't let him win.

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had.

This is not a good argument. In the military, knowledge tends to exist on a "need to know" basis. If you are taking actions at a level higher than your rank, then you are probably taking actions you lack the knowledge to usefully assess are correct or not. When your superiors - who do have the appropriate knowledge - are telling you not to act, and you act anyway, chances are better than evens you're a fucking imbecile who deserves demotion or court martial.

Hawki:
The Resistance fleet has three ships. Two run out of fuel and are destroyed with only one casualty per ship. If Poe hadn't made a mess of things, far more people would have survived the destruction of the Raddus, including the fighters and bombers, which would have been invaluable if they needed to cover their escape and/or be used on Crait. In contrast, destroying the dreadnought doesn't net the Resistance any short-term gain, and it's made clear that in the context of this point in time, the First Order can afford to lose far more than the Resistance.

Picking this spot as a jumping off point because it's on the current page...

Space battles in the SW universe are based off WWII. It's as close to the one absolute truth you'll ever find with this franchise, and it's been consistent in every film, series, and canon spin-off to date. The words have come out of Lucas' mouth with regards to ANH, all the way through to TLJ with Johnson's B-17 and B-29 inspired bombers. Ergo, when discussing the capital ships, the most direct comparison to make are ships -- and their roles -- in WWII.

By the time of WWII, submarines, torpedoes, and aircraft, as well as the ever-increasing range and accuracy of battleship weapons extending their range to stand-off distance, necessitating scouting vessels and aircraft to spot, target, and to a lesser degree range-find, had in reality reduced the role of the battleship to that of fire support to the larger battlegroup. This is all despite admirals' and naval powers' dogged, regressive, adherence to Mahanian doctrine of considering the largest, most powerful, ships the centerpiece of a battlegroup around which all vessels are designed to support. And, this is despite of the colossal cost in terms of time, money, and materiel that went into the design, construction, and supply of battleships.

So, in short, at the time during which SW space conflict is directly and unarguably based, justifying direct historical comparisons some of which have already been employed in this very conversation, the "dreadnought" (e.g. battleship) was a necessary evil. They needed an entire battlegroup to support them, because they were too vaulable and too vulnerable a target, but necessary because...

...and I'm giving this its own line to make the point...

...they had the biggest, most damaging, longest-ranged, and most accurate guns.

So there we have it.

"Buh orbital bombardment!" The Fulminatrix was targeting the Raddus and preparing to fire when it was destroyed, it has the capability to target and hit other capital ships. Not to mention its own massive complement of TIE fighters. Next "argument".

"Buh muh range!" See above argument. Plus, the First Order fleet jumped in at knife fight range when chasing the Resistance away from D'Qar, the Fulminatrix would have ample time to target and destroy the Raddus on the spot. Next "argument".

"Buh Supremacy!" Read the lore. The Supremacy was a command, control, and logistics (and arguably surface assault?) vessel first and foremost, but reserved enough defensive ability to fend off an attack. The Fulminatrix was a purpose-built weapons platform, and the entire purpose of the orbital autocannons was their ability to pierce planetary shielding...which a brief aside, why did Holdo and Leia think the abandoned base on Crait was their best option again? What specifically did it have?

Ask Rian Johnson why it didn't have a battery of orbital autocannons -- to me, reading the canon lore on the vessel, it would have been a more useful addition to the ship given its fighter and ground force complement than even more turbolasers. But, if there's one thing everyone can agree upon, hopefully it's the filmmaker and creatives associated with the SW films have never had a particularly firm grasp on doctrine or weapons design.

And, a parting point. It's funny how awfully fast people want to talk about relative losses and cost-to-benefit ratios when it comes to Poe attacking the dreadnought that would have destroyed the entire Resistance in a single shot at literally any later point in the film had it been left in one piece, but get real skittish on the subject when it comes to Holdo systemically sacrificing every hyperspace-capable ship left in Resistance hands...to get to an abandoned base with what seems like little food or water, only small arms, no fuel, and no apparent way to get themselves off the planet. All to ram the Raddus into the Supremacy whilst in hyperspace at the last-possible second.

A move she could have done easily with one of the two escorting ships to similar, if not necessarily equal, results, at a point the Resistance fleet still had fuel, time, and options. Thereby sacrificing one ship to disable a significant portion of the First Order fleet, if not knock the Supremacy out of the chase, buying the Resistance more time and options.

Or, considering the Resistance somehow had the Supremacy's schematics, which we know from the film to be accurate, and Finn and Rose somehow figured out where the tracker was, and that they were tracking the Resistance from only the Supremacy, they could have...made a simultaneous jump with all three ships earlier in the engagement while they still had the fuel, except one jump would have been targeted directly at the Supremacy, or more specifically the portion of the ship that housed the tracker.

That one's not even my idea. A few weeks back my local gaming group was bitching about the movie, and I asked them what they would have done given the information at their disposal. We wrapped up a pretty long-lived SWD6 game not long ago, so Star Wars in sum is still fresh on the mind. It took them all of thirty seconds to figure that one out.

Eacaraxe:

And, a parting point. It's funny how awfully fast people want to talk about relative losses and cost-to-benefit ratios when it comes to Poe attacking the dreadnought that would have destroyed the entire Resistance in a single shot at literally any later point in the film had it been left in one piece, but get real skittish on the subject when it comes to Holdo systemically sacrificing every hyperspace-capable ship left in Resistance hands...to get to an abandoned base with what seems like little food or water, only small arms, no fuel, and no apparent way to get themselves off the planet. All to ram the Raddus into the Supremacy whilst in hyperspace at the last-possible second.

A move she could have done easily with one of the two escorting ships to similar, if not necessarily equal, results, at a point the Resistance fleet still had fuel, time, and options. Thereby sacrificing one ship to disable a significant portion of the First Order fleet, if not knock the Supremacy out of the chase, buying the Resistance more time and options.

The suicide run worked ONLY because the first order was ignoring the Raddus at the time. It's specifically called out to Hux that the ship is turning about, and the order is given to not fire on it, and to keep focussing on the transports. Each time the other ships ran out of fuel, they were obliterated pretty much instantly - any other ship turning to do the ramming maneuver would have been dead before they got it off. Remember, Star Wars treats space flight as pretty much exactly like air to air combat. There's no true zero g inertia based movement.

the first order only knew to look for the transports because of the leak Poe caused. If he had kept his mouth in check, the first order would have kept chasing the ships, and a lot more people would have made it to the planet. Hell, they may well have got rescued long before the first order figured out they had been duped.

As to the dreadnought following ...

Even if Poe was 'right' it was not from making a well informed judgement call. They had no idea about hyperspace tracking. It doesn't invalidate he ignored orders. It doesn't invalidated he Got People Killed. It doesn't invalidate that when Leia CHEWED HIM OUT over it, his response was not 'oh hey, maybe I should think on this criticism' it was 'HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE ME!'

Eacaraxe:
...which a brief aside, why did Holdo and Leia think the abandoned base on Crait was their best option again? What specifically did it have?

Ask Rian Johnson why it didn't have a battery of orbital autocannons --

As stated in the movie, the Resistance is attempting to go to ground, so it wants a base with the primary characteristics of being unknown and out-of-the-way. (It might also be possible that the First Order fleet is powerful enough to trash a planetary base with orbital autocannons anyway, so no benefit to having them anyway.) I dare say people don't leave bases containing plenty of hyperspace-capable ships and orbital defence cannons lying around - those things strike me as a bit too valuable (and dangerous if they fall into the wrong hands).

You also seem to assume the dreadnought can simply delete cruisers at will. Maybe it can't, and the Raddus actually had the ability to take enough of a pounding before escaping even if targetted.

It's not that most fiction is ever going to be faultless, and lord knows TLJ is far from faultless. But there's also a point where you can be so determined to find error that you start manufacturing it out of nothing.

* * *

At any rate, any story which has to manufacture a reason why an entire Galactic Republic doesn't have a fleet to combat the First Order is kind of pushing its luck right from the offset anyway.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

I don't see the underling in the wrong, I see the underling under terrible command trying to rectify the situation. A much more competent underling.

Except the command is good, and the underling blows the plan to pieces.

Even if you want to lay blame on Holdo, Poe is still throwing chain of command to the wind.

And it makes absolute sense for him to do so. Especially since this is SW and hot blooded heroics trumps cold calculation every day.

I want to hold on this point for a moment. I know that relative losses are more important than absolute losses, especially in asymmetric warfare like how these movies play out, but at some point you have to compare relative losses to absolute losses to gauge the feasibility of your war effort when taking your grand strategy in mind. The rebels want to remove the FO's ability to act in known space. That requires them to vanquish a majority of the FO forces.

Semantics, but not necessarily. The Rebellion didn't need to wipe out the majority of the Empire's forces, they just needed to wipe out Palpatine. After that, the Empire self-disintegrated. Arguably, the First Order is already down that path after the loss of Snoke.

I mean, we'll find out if Kylo Ren (or Rei scare chord) and Hux can keep the military together, but yes, SW ends with the hero beating the big villain and we ignore things like chain of command or logistics afterward.

If you look at an absolute tally of 4,300:1 kills and a price tag ratio that I wouldn't want to count if I could, and say "these are unacceptable losses that will lose us the war", you've already lost to numbers. Their grand strategy cannot succeed against a material advantage that strong.

Alright, but what's the Resistance's alternative? Lie down and let the First Order rule?

Obviously there's some ratio that favours the Resistance (no-one's complaining about Starkiller Base's costs), but at this point in time, the Resistance is down to a handful of ships, without safe harbour, without support, facing an enemy powerful enough to start establishing control over swathes of the galaxy. Far better to try and improve your odds than squander what remaining forces you have.

What you do is scale back your grand strategy. Fighting the FO to total victory is mathematically impossible for the rebels, but take an area of the galaxy and holding it is within their scope. At that point the FO does become defacto in control of the rest of the galaxy, but that means they have to rule it, which means dividing their forces. From there the rebels can build themselves up and pick their battles against enemy key points instead of having to take all comers, which they clearly can't afford to do.

The rebels are against such a force. Logistically they cannot possibly win. Granted this is SW, so the actual military forces don't matter compared to the big heroes dueling the big villains.

That's up to Ep. IX to declare. TLJ shows that the actions of the Resistance and Luke have already reached elements of the galaxy's populace (tying in with the themes again). But the idea of a war coming down to the actions of a few individuals isn't endemic to Star Wars (see Lord of the Rings for instance).

It's not endemic to SW, but SW purely operates on that logic.

Which is to say she failed. She couldn't do her job on screen.

Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.

No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.

Exactly. Which is why it's frustrating to see the movies like this, I would love for that to be played well. Have the villain as the one growing and learning instead of the hero, make it their journey instead. That's a really interesting way to write a story. It's a shame the villain is Kylo Ren.

Except Kylo Ren does grow (or change). That isn't even unusual - both Luke and Vader changed over the course of the OT. Key difference is that Vader and Ren are going in opposite directions (in terms of light-dark).

Well Ren may or may not be going in a different direction. But the point is that I know Ren is growing, I just think Ren is a whiny little bitch and wish the protagonist was funner.

Agema:

crimson5pheonix:
That's because the writer wouldn't let Poe take any credit.

Sure. And so also would Sauron have killed the Fellowship of the Ring and overrun Middle Earth if it wasn't the fact the writer wouldn't let him win.

True, but there isn't a lingering question overhead of "what did Sauron do wrong?" for the readers to ponder the writer's decision.

The whole movie is supposed to play out like Holdo was right, but she was incompetent. Poe took the correct actions with what knowledge he had.

This is not a good argument. In the military, knowledge tends to exist on a "need to know" basis. If you are taking actions at a level higher than your rank, then you are probably taking actions you lack the knowledge to usefully assess are correct or not. When your superiors - who do have the appropriate knowledge - are telling you not to act, and you act anyway, chances are better than evens you're a fucking imbecile who deserves demotion or court martial.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

crimson5pheonix:

Hawki:

Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.

No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.

You sound just like a Vietnam Vet. A great kill ratio doesn't mean a thing if it loses you the war anyway.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

And I wouldn't fancy your odds when using that as a flimsy defence in a military tribunal. Especially if you acted before said incompetence had been proven.

Squilookle:

crimson5pheonix:

Hawki:

Technically, Poe couldn't. He's the one launching a mutiny, he's the one who's refusing to follow the chain of command, he's the one who takes 90% of the movie to learn some humility. Holdo's failure is in not indulging him.

No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.

You sound just like a Vietnam Vet. A great kill ratio doesn't mean a thing if it loses you the war anyway.

And I pointed out that if they can't afford the kill ratio he got, they lost the war to logistics already. That is an unprecedented military victory he pulled off outside of Luke blowing up the Death Star. If the rebels expect to actually fight the FO, they should be praying for victories like that. If they plan on causing a mass uprising across the galaxy, they should still be praying for victories like that. The propaganda writes itself.

"Poe Dameron scores unprecedented victory over First Order, the resistance needs YOU."

The only reason you might fear costly victories is if you're only slightly behind your foe and need to play your cards very carefully. Clearly the rebels are so far behind the FO that their actual military assets are largely meaningless.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

And I wouldn't fancy your odds when using that as a flimsy defence in a military tribunal. Especially if you acted before said incompetence had been proven.

It wasn't just Poe rising up, she had a full scale mutiny. She was in command for hours and she botched morale so hard that her crew rose up against her. That's the sign of a bad commander.

Windknight:
...Each time the other ships ran out of fuel, they were obliterated pretty much instantly...

Just stop for a second and think about what you just said. With no fuel, they couldn't power propulsion and what other subsystem again? It rhymes with "nectar fields".

It happens twice in the movie, feel free to go and watch. I'll wait. :)

Funny story about Newtonian physics in Star Wars. TLJ is the one in the entire franchise to come closest to it, even though it's a more "in effect when Johnson wanted it in effect" thing. In fact, that's the entire premise of the normal-space chase that makes up the very topic of our conversation. Distance is absolute in space between two or more bodies, but vector and acceleration/speed are relative; the Resistance fleet had to match or exceed the First Order fleet's rate of acceleration which is why fuel consumption was an issue in the first place.

You also seem to assume the dreadnought can simply delete cruisers at will. Maybe it can't, and the Raddus actually had the ability to take enough of a pounding before escaping even if targetted.

That was literally the entire point of having to destroy the dreadnought before it got a shot off at the Raddus.

Look, here's the bottom line. Johnson was clearly so obsessed with "subverting expectations" he wrote a deeply-flawed script rife with errors and inconsistencies, to the point the action occurring on-screen directly contradicted the very points the film was trying to make, and themes the film was trying to explore. And, frankly, Lucasfilm and Kennedy dropped the ball in a truly mind-boggling fashion green-lighting the script's first draft.

If it was one error here or there, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm a lot more forgiving than most nerds on the internet, and I prefer to look at the big picture instead of picking nits. But, this movie has so many errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions right down to the most fundamental levels, they destroy Johnson's conveyance of the themes and statements he hoped to make. And sadly, the film's defenders are so ardent and, honestly, irrational in their defense (and so are many of its critics) one has to get to the elementary-school playground level to make any sort of headway, at all, to get any sort of concession that, perhaps, the film wasn't picture-perfect from its first frame to its last. At least, that's how I feel about it.

My favorite piece of SW fiction, EVER, is KotOR 2. I'm, principally, on board with everything Johnson wanted to say in this movie. And, that's basically what TLJ tried to be -- a Hollywood-ified thematic adaptation of KotOR2, except as a sequel film to TFA. That's why this movie pisses me off so damn much -- buried deep in there was real potential to be a truly ground-breaking film, not just in SW but in postmodernist cinema, period. And, I don't appreciate the way Johnson treated the women characters in the movie.

Hawki:

Wasn't he a commander then?

That aside, the Rebel Alliance's ranking system is whack. Han becomes a general within three years, Lando gets the position in 1.

It is whacked. Becoming a general is a career. Sir Peter Cosgrove, a bona fide war hero, second to none commander and diplomat. Mastermind behind the East Timor intervention, and he was a LT in Vietnam.

His accomplishments, personal heroism, compassion for his soldiers, legendary modesty, and unparalleled understanding of warfare and international diplomacy... well, it took him 3 decades 'til he was awarded the honour... his actions, his machinations, his precision planning and skillful means to navigate around a potential larger conflict that could have ignited also rank a lot higher than assisting a handful of combat actions.

Takes a bit longer than a year.

Fair enough. I'm actually the opposite - Star Wars is the best for me when it's delving into the mystical/magical side. Part of why Last Jedi is the best of the NuWars films for me, whereas Rogue One is my least favourite (and is why it ranks close to the bottom of the list for me, whereas TFA/Solo/TLJ hover in the middle.

Yeah, but to put it on the flipside if you can't tell an action packed SW story that involves guerrilla fighters, sci-fi tanks, and an actual half decently shot ground battles... then you've got a problematic 'world'.

The one thing that irritates me about the movies that treat the Force 'too seriously' is that it's actually kind of a mindfuck how broken a religion it is. The reason why 'midichlorians' doesn't work, is because any attempt to actually base it on a logical, functional aspect of the galaxy is inherently doomed to be broken upon its own scrutiny.

It also doesn't help lightsabers are inherently boring *things* as opposed to merely interesting on a conceptual layer.

The blasters have more interesting designs and shapes, and nuances, and effects. On the flipside, unless you're a SW-phile, an unactivated sabre is impossible to tell apart and who they belong to when you take all three inevitable trilogies.

That being said, look at the blasters and other props of the Rebel infantry's weapons on Hoth. Whether their static guns to the blasters they carry into battle. Each one has obvious character that is immediately visible because they're large enough to be seen.

You don't need to be a SW-phile to recognize Han's pistol. You don't need to be a SW-phile to recognize an AT-AT. The blasters, ships and ground vehicles are the real stand outs of Star Wars...

I mean you have a universe where something like this ...

image

... exists.

And that creativity of design is infinitely better than glowing laser sticks.

crimson5pheonix:

No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

A 10:1 kill ratio/victory doesn't mean jack-shit if your enemy outnumbers you 50:1, 60:1 etc. And judging by the crew compliment (found via wookieepedia) just the FO fleet visible during The Last Jedi the Resistance was outnumbered 7,945:1.
What Poe walked away from in the opening scene was an almost textbook example of a pyrrhic victory.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.

Holdo seemed to command the vast majority of the troops just fine. It was Poe and his fighter jocks that mutinied, mostly because Poe threw a fit when Holdo A. shot down his own plan and B. saw that Holdo was planing on evacuating the Raddus. He didn't even give her a chance to explain her plan. He called her an incompetent coward and a traitor then started his mutiny.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

Where is the proof that Holdo was incompetent? Other than Poe thinking he knew everything and that the only solution to a given problem was blast the shit out of something, I mean.

twistedmic:

crimson5pheonix:

No, Poe did his job. In any sane military they start asking you how many medals you want for scoring a 10:1 victory. Poe destroying that capital ship is a miraculous achievement.

A 10:1 kill ratio/victory doesn't mean jack-shit if your enemy outnumbers you 50:1, 60:1 etc. And judging by the crew compliment (found via wookieepedia) just the FO fleet visible during The Last Jedi the Resistance was outnumbered 7,945:1.
What Poe walked away from in the opening scene was an almost textbook example of a pyrrhic victory.

Yeah, but Poe didn't get a 10:1 victory, the most conservative estimate is somewhere around a 5000:1 ratio. Likely more since the wing that wasn't lost had fewer personnel, such that it wasn't at all a Pyrrhic victory. Though what you point out is the crux of the argument, the hell kind of military strategy does the Resistance hope to have? If they can't win with 5000+:1 victories, they don't qualify as a military threat.

Meanwhile, Holdo can't command her troops effectively enough to execute her plan.

Holdo seemed to command the vast majority of the troops just fine. It was Poe and his fighter jocks that mutinied, mostly because Poe threw a fit when Holdo A. shot down his own plan and B. saw that Holdo was planing on evacuating the Raddus. He didn't even give her a chance to explain her plan. He called her an incompetent coward and a traitor then started his mutiny.

I mean, there was the times where he asked about the plans. I think that would be giving her a chance. Instead Holdo makes sure to demoralize her own troops in a stressful situation, because that's what competent commanders do.

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

Where is the proof that Holdo was incompetent? Other than Poe thinking he knew everything and that the only solution to a given problem was blast the shit out of something, I mean.

Yeah, she failed to lead her troops. A commander who can't lead troops is a bad commander.

crimson5pheonix:

Yeah, but Poe didn't get a 10:1 victory, the most conservative estimate is somewhere around a 5000:1 ratio. Likely more since the wing that wasn't lost had fewer personnel, such that it wasn't at all a Pyrrhic victory. Though what you point out is the crux of the argument, the hell kind of military strategy does the Resistance hope to have? If they can't win with 5000+:1 victories, they don't qualify as a military threat.

Poe's assault on the Dreadnought cost them their entire bomber fleet. The Resistance no longer has a bomber fleet, it has been entirely destroyed. Without bombers they would not be able to destroy another Dreadnought that may show up in the future. The also lost a chunk of their fighters. And the Resistance cannot easily replace their lost equipment or pilots. By loosing their entire bomber fleet and those fighters they have been severely weakened. Even if the First Order had not been able to track them through hyperspace the Resistance still would have been severely weakened and less able to defend themselves or launch attacks on other (probably less secured) First Order targets.
Maybe the Resistance's military strategy was to run for stand up fights and engage in smaller scale, hit-and-run raids and attacks. Maybe their strategy was one closer to guerrilla warfare than pitched battles.

I mean, there was the times where he asked about the plans. I think that would be giving her a chance. Instead Holdo makes sure to demoralize her own troops in a stressful situation, because that's what competent commanders do.

Demoralize subordinates by not handing out 'need to know' information to someone that does no need to know said information? Poe was not in command of the fleet, he was not in command of a cruiser, frigate or transport ship. At that point he didn't even have a fighter to pilot. Him knowing about the plan would not have helped anyone, other than Poe's pride. And, when Poe found out about the plan to abandon the Raddus he blabbed about it on an open channel where an unknown and untested person was able to hear. Those actions directly led to the death of nearly the entire Resistance. Remember, at the start of the movie the Resistance number three to four hundred, at the end (and following Poe revealing Holdo's plan) all of the survivors could comfortably fit inside the Millennium Falcon. The Resistance lost hundreds of people due to Poe's actions.

Yeah, she failed to lead her troops. A commander who can't lead troops is a bad commander.

How is that proof? What troops, other than Poe (a hotheaded fighter jock that thought he knew everything) and four or five other pilots, did Holdo fail to lead?
Furthermore, how is the mutiny Holdo's fault? Poe and his fellow pilots (who no longer have fighters to pilot) are the ones that mutinied. Holdo did not violate any laws or rules and was not being unreasonable to people other than Poe, who felt entitled because he was a 'hero'.

Eacaraxe:

...they had the biggest, most damaging, longest-ranged, and most accurate guns.

It took you 4 paragraphs to make a point about WWII battleships that says nothing in of itself.

It's like saying "I have a gun that can shoot further than any other gun." Still means nothing if my target is moving so far away I still can't hit the bastard.

"Buh orbital bombardment!" The Fulminatrix was targeting the Raddus and preparing to fire when it was destroyed, it has the capability to target and hit other capital ships. Not to mention its own massive complement of TIE fighters.

...you mean the scene that shows just how long it takes for the dreadnought to charge its shots? You mean the scene where the Raddus is only still around because its fighters and bombers are doing an unauthorized assault?

"Buh muh range!" See above argument. Plus, the First Order fleet jumped in at knife fight range when chasing the Resistance away from D'Qar, the Fulminatrix would have ample time to target and destroy the Raddus on the spot.

IIRC, there's a lot of time between the dreadnaught firing on D'Qar and it arriving, and it takes ages to even try to shoot again. Also, you never made an argument. You simply said battleships had a greater range than other ships. This isn't an argument. To present it as an argument, you'd have to know:

-The maximum range of the guns

-The Raddus's range from the ship.

-The firing time of the guns (pretty long apparently)

-The rate at which the energy dissipates along distance, cross-referenced by the strength of the Raddus's shields, cross-referenced with the rate of fire, cross-referenced with how fast the shields can recharge.

The film doesn't give us any of that information. It's not at fault for doing so, because the information isn't relevant to the plot. There's a principle in writing that information should be given out as required by the plot. Also, info-dumps are a terrible form of writing - we don't need an info-dump in A New Hope explaining why the Death Star has to orbit Yavin to reach Yavin IV rather than coming up right in front of it, the audience can put two and two together. Same way we can infer that the dreadnaught wouldn't have taken out the Raddus because Poe himself never brings it up in his defence, and there's no hard data, in the film or out of it, to calcuate the results of firing.

"Buh Supremacy!" Read the lore. The Supremacy was a command, control, and logistics (and arguably surface assault?) vessel first and foremost, but reserved enough defensive ability to fend off an attack. The Fulminatrix was a purpose-built weapons platform, and the entire purpose of the orbital autocannons was their ability to pierce planetary shielding...which a brief aside, why did Holdo and Leia think the abandoned base on Crait was their best option again? What specifically did it have?

These points are kind of all over the place. You yourself state that the purpose of the autocannons is their ability to penetrate planetary shielding (don't know where this comes from - it's not in the film, and it's not on Wookiepedia).

Also, the base on Crait was fortified enough that the First Order needed a mini-Death Star cannon to even get in, and their plan was to get help. Not a bad plan, and it's expectations that the film subverts.

Ask Rian Johnson why it didn't have a battery of orbital autocannons

I wouldn't, for a number of reasons.

1) Poor guy's been subjected to enough.

2) It's falling into "coulda, woulda, shoulda" territory. You can nitpick any kind of thing in genre fiction. I've already pointed out A New Hope and the Death Star's 15 minute orbit, I can do the same for any number of films. The film gives me the information to understand that the dreadnaught is designed for ship-to-ship combat, but that taking it out was a waste of Resistance manpower and hardware.

3) As someone who writes and reviews extensively, I know from experience that there's a difference between constructive critiquing of worldbuilding and nitpicking. Asking why a ship doesn't have orbital cannons is falling into the latter.

And, a parting point. It's funny how awfully fast people want to talk about relative losses and cost-to-benefit ratios when it comes to Poe attacking the dreadnought that would have destroyed the entire Resistance in a single shot at literally any later point in the film had it been left in one piece, but get real skittish on the subject when it comes to Holdo systemically sacrificing every hyperspace-capable ship left in Resistance hands...to get to an abandoned base with what seems like little food or water, only small arms, no fuel, and no apparent way to get themselves off the planet. All to ram the Raddus into the Supremacy whilst in hyperspace at the last-possible second.

The ramming wasn't part of the plan, and WindKnight's pointed out that it's dubious as to whether it would have worked if they weren't focusing on the transports.

A move she could have done easily with one of the two escorting ships to similar, if not necessarily equal, results, at a point the Resistance fleet still had fuel, time, and options. Thereby sacrificing one ship to disable a significant portion of the First Order fleet, if not knock the Supremacy out of the chase, buying the Resistance more time and options.

No, not really.

1) The Resistance ships would likely be blasted out of the sky before they could do the run.

2) The Resistane ships are much, MUCH smaller than the Raddus. Like, the Ninka is 1/10th of the size. It would do far less damage, and even the Raddus itself doesn't outright destroy the Supremacy.

Or, considering the Resistance somehow had the Supremacy's schematics, which we know from the film to be accurate, and Finn and Rose somehow figured out where the tracker was, and that they were tracking the Resistance from only the Supremacy, they could have...made a simultaneous jump with all three ships earlier in the engagement while they still had the fuel, except one jump would have been targeted directly at the Supremacy, or more specifically the portion of the ship that housed the tracker.

Because of course a hyperspace jump would be so accurate as to take out just one part of the ship.

crimson5pheonix:
[

And it makes absolute sense for him to do so. Especially since this is SW and hot blooded heroics trumps cold calculation every day.

Which is precisely the trope that TLJ is subverting.

True, but there isn't a lingering question overhead of "what did Sauron do wrong?" for the readers to ponder the writer's decision.

What did Sauron do wrong?

-He puts no guards at Mount Doom.

-He loses on every front except the North.

-He's blind when the plot suits him to be (film version)

I can nitpick Sauron and Lord of the Rings to death (the old "why don't the eagles drop the ring in Mount Doom?" for starters). It doesn't diminish the work.

Eacaraxe:

That was literally the entire point of having to destroy the dreadnought before it got a shot off at the Raddus.

The film makes it pretty clear that the Raddus could have escaped before the dreadnaught fires again.

If it was one error here or there, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'm a lot more forgiving than most nerds on the internet, and I prefer to look at the big picture instead of picking nits. But, this movie has so many errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions right down to the most fundamental levels, they destroy Johnson's conveyance of the themes and statements he hoped to make. And sadly, the film's defenders are so ardent and, honestly, irrational in their defense (and so are many of its critics) one has to get to the elementary-school playground level to make any sort of headway, at all, to get any sort of concession that, perhaps, the film wasn't picture-perfect from its first frame to its last. At least, that's how I feel about it.

Off topic, but you remind me of how I feel about Interstellar...

Of course, key difference is that Interstellar is selling itself as hard sci-fi, while Star Wars is space fantasy.

crimson5pheonix:

Yeah, but Poe didn't get a 10:1 victory, the most conservative estimate is somewhere around a 5000:1 ratio. Likely more since the wing that wasn't lost had fewer personnel, such that it wasn't at all a Pyrrhic victory. Though what you point out is the crux of the argument, the hell kind of military strategy does the Resistance hope to have? If they can't win with 5000+:1 victories, they don't qualify as a military threat.

Key differences:

-The Resistance is without any means of re-supply at the time the attack is made.

-The Resistance's immediate strategy is to gather allies.

-There's no other option for them, because if they fall, the galaxy does (apparently)

Hawki:
Because of course a hyperspace jump would be so accurate as to take out just one part of the ship.

Hyperspace jumps should logically be extremely accurate though, since deviating even a tiny fraction of a degree off course across interstellar distances could leave you millions of kilometers from your desired destination. Which is kind of a useless point to make, because it's bringing reality into a franchise that threats space battles like WWII naval/air combat. Can't help myself though. Like the whole Raddus hyperspace ramming thing. It's weaksauce. Real relativistic physics are way more badass. A 1 kg brick launched at 99,99% c would hit harder.

Whatever, don't mind me. Carry on.

Eacaraxe:

Windknight:
...Each time the other ships ran out of fuel, they were obliterated pretty much instantly...

Just stop for a second and think about what you just said. With no fuel, they couldn't power propulsion and what other subsystem again? It rhymes with "nectar fields".

and you ignored the fact that the fact that the Raddus only got its run off BECAUSE THE FIRST ORDER IGNORED IT. Still had its shields up, and it would have been toast if it had been targeted. But I'm sure the two smaller ships had tougher shields somehow.

twistedmic:

crimson5pheonix:

Yeah, but Poe didn't get a 10:1 victory, the most conservative estimate is somewhere around a 5000:1 ratio. Likely more since the wing that wasn't lost had fewer personnel, such that it wasn't at all a Pyrrhic victory. Though what you point out is the crux of the argument, the hell kind of military strategy does the Resistance hope to have? If they can't win with 5000+:1 victories, they don't qualify as a military threat.

Poe's assault on the Dreadnought cost them their entire bomber fleet. The Resistance no longer has a bomber fleet, it has been entirely destroyed. Without bombers they would not be able to destroy another Dreadnought that may show up in the future. The also lost a chunk of their fighters. And the Resistance cannot easily replace their lost equipment or pilots. By loosing their entire bomber fleet and those fighters they have been severely weakened. Even if the First Order had not been able to track them through hyperspace the Resistance still would have been severely weakened and less able to defend themselves or launch attacks on other (probably less secured) First Order targets.
Maybe the Resistance's military strategy was to run for stand up fights and engage in smaller scale, hit-and-run raids and attacks. Maybe their strategy was one closer to guerrilla warfare than pitched battles.

Yes, all their bombers. One of the squads had 5 to begin with. Looking stuff up on wookiepedia, what we see fleeing is the entire resistance such as it is. Meanwhile the FO has forces in reserve. So to bring it back, that was a single isolated target of very high value, it is about the best the resistance could hope for for a guerrilla attack and Poe crushed it with an amazing tactical play. But the difference in their war potential is so vast as to make it absolutely meaningless from a pure military standpoint. But big plays like that work well as propaganda pieces to get people to join your side and make up that difference in potential.

I mean, there was the times where he asked about the plans. I think that would be giving her a chance. Instead Holdo makes sure to demoralize her own troops in a stressful situation, because that's what competent commanders do.

Demoralize subordinates by not handing out 'need to know' information to someone that does no need to know said information? Poe was not in command of the fleet, he was not in command of a cruiser, frigate or transport ship. At that point he didn't even have a fighter to pilot. Him knowing about the plan would not have helped anyone, other than Poe's pride. And, when Poe found out about the plan to abandon the Raddus he blabbed about it on an open channel where an unknown and untested person was able to hear. Those actions directly led to the death of nearly the entire Resistance. Remember, at the start of the movie the Resistance number three to four hundred, at the end (and following Poe revealing Holdo's plan) all of the survivors could comfortably fit inside the Millennium Falcon. The Resistance lost hundreds of people due to Poe's actions.

Good thing they could fit in the Millenium Falcon, there was no way off the planet they were fleeing to and hoping the FO didn't notice. It was such a great plan. But in any case, there was only someone on the other end of that channel because the plan was withheld up until that point. Yes, you can technically hide behind "need to know basis", but usually competent commanders will share their plans with their crews when things look bleak so they don't do anything drastic. Or mutiny. Because competent commanders understand how morale works.

Yeah, she failed to lead her troops. A commander who can't lead troops is a bad commander.

How is that proof? What troops, other than Poe (a hotheaded fighter jock that thought he knew everything) and four or five other pilots, did Holdo fail to lead?
Furthermore, how is the mutiny Holdo's fault? Poe and his fellow pilots (who no longer have fighters to pilot) are the ones that mutinied. Holdo did not violate any laws or rules and was not being unreasonable to people other than Poe, who felt entitled because he was a 'hero'.

Considering how few in number they were at that point, that is a significant mutiny. And if I were Poe I'd be having serious doubts about my side's position if unprecedented tactical victories are too costly. That's a giant neon sign that says "we have no way to win".

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

And it makes absolute sense for him to do so. Especially since this is SW and hot blooded heroics trumps cold calculation every day.

Which is precisely the trope that TLJ is subverting.

And poorly because the best way to subvert that trope is with harsh realism. In Star Wars. And Johnson apparently isn't a good enough writer to pull that off.

True, but there isn't a lingering question overhead of "what did Sauron do wrong?" for the readers to ponder the writer's decision.

What did Sauron do wrong?

-He puts no guards at Mount Doom.

-He loses on every front except the North.

-He's blind when the plot suits him to be (film version)

I can nitpick Sauron and Lord of the Rings to death (the old "why don't the eagles drop the ring in Mount Doom?" for starters). It doesn't diminish the work.

That's nitpicks that can usually be explained by "ego", not gaping plot holes by supposedly sympathetic characters.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

Yeah, but Poe didn't get a 10:1 victory, the most conservative estimate is somewhere around a 5000:1 ratio. Likely more since the wing that wasn't lost had fewer personnel, such that it wasn't at all a Pyrrhic victory. Though what you point out is the crux of the argument, the hell kind of military strategy does the Resistance hope to have? If they can't win with 5000+:1 victories, they don't qualify as a military threat.

Key differences:

-The Resistance is without any means of re-supply at the time the attack is made.

-The Resistance's immediate strategy is to gather allies.

-There's no other option for them, because if they fall, the galaxy does (apparently)

The rebels are without any means of re-supply period. Somehow the legitimate government of the galaxy is more poorly equipped then when it was an underground rebel fleet. The rebel fleet could stage a grand assault on something the size of the Death Star, twice. They had supply bases spread across the galaxy they could go to. They had an actual fucking fleet. And they managed to do all that under the thumb of the Empire. But apparently the new rebellion managed to fund and build an entire invasion fleet capable of crushing the galaxy while in exile in under 30 years. At some point you have to ask what kind of brainiacs run the Republic. And how many of them made up the resistance forces.

They're supposed to be sympathetic, but the writers went so far to make them the underdogs that they just look too stupid to breathe.

crimson5pheonix:

Yes, all their bombers. One of the squads had 5 to begin with. Looking stuff up on wookiepedia, what we see fleeing is the entire resistance such as it is. Meanwhile the FO has forces in reserve. So to bring it back, that was a single isolated target of very high value, it is about the best the resistance could hope for for a guerrilla attack and Poe crushed it with an amazing tactical play. But the difference in their war potential is so vast as to make it absolutely meaningless from a pure military standpoint. But big plays like that work well as propaganda pieces to get people to join your side and make up that difference in potential.

First off, the Dreadnought was not a single isolated target, it had three Star Destroyers as backup. Plus the First Order came to the Resistance while they were trying to run. The First Order was looking for, and keyed up for a fight while the Resistance was not. Guerrilla forces generally do not take the bait and fight when their larger and more powerful enemy wants them to. They strike when their enemy is not prepared and they strike where their enemy is not expecting them.
And loosing a large portion of your irreplaceable material and personnel in an unauthorized and unneeded attack is not an "Amazing tactical play". It is wasteful showboating.

The Resistance is just that, a resistance against the First Order. They are not a large military force. If I recall, the French resistance during World War II did not directly assault large groups of Nazis or go toe to toe with them in open conflict. They sabotaged shit, picked off isolated troops and patrols and assassinated single individuals.

Good thing they could fit in the Millenium Falcon, there was no way off the planet they were fleeing to and hoping the FO didn't notice. It was such a great plan. But in any case, there was only someone on the other end of that channel because the plan was withheld up until that point. Yes, you can technically hide behind "need to know basis", but usually competent commanders will share their plans with their crews when things look bleak so they don't do anything drastic. Or mutiny. Because competent commanders understand how morale works.

If Holdo is incompetent for not sharing her plan with Poe (who has no need to know about the plan, no authority to enact any part of the plan, has proven to be insubordinate and has no fighter to pilot) what does that make Poe for not bringing his idea of hacking the tracker to Holdo? There was no reason to keep that idea from her other than to soothe his battered ego and simple spite.

Considering how few in number they were at that point, that is a significant mutiny. And if I were Poe I'd be having serious doubts about my side's position if unprecedented tactical victories are too costly. That's a giant neon sign that says "we have no way to win".

Again, loosing all of their bombers and bomber crews, which could not be replaced, is not a tactical victory. If Poe had managed to destroy the Dreadnoughts auto cannons himself, or with a few wingmen, and the Resistance escaped with all of their bombers and their full remaining force of fighters that would have been a tactical victory. If they had only lost one bomber, instead of all of them, then it may have been a tactical victory. But that assault effectively crippled the Resistance from space combat stand point.

crimson5pheonix:

And poorly because the best way to subvert that trope is with harsh realism. In Star Wars. And Johnson apparently isn't a good enough writer to pull that off.

And having every attack and heroic plan that Poe spearheaded lead to heavy casualties for the Resistance is not subverting the 'heroics trump calculations' or show what would realistically happen if an undermanned and under-armed force attacked a far stronger and better prepared army.

The rebels are without any means of re-supply period. Somehow the legitimate government of the galaxy is more poorly equipped then when it was an underground rebel fleet. The rebel fleet could stage a grand assault on something the size of the Death Star, twice. They had supply bases spread across the galaxy they could go to. They had an actual fucking fleet. And they managed to do all that under the thumb of the Empire.

The Resistance is not the legitimate government of the galaxy, the Republic was. Then the First Order destroyed the Republic system and their fleet.
Secondly, the first Death Star showed up on the Rebellion's doorstep and they made a frantic attempt to not die. Even then the Rebellion suffered massive losses. They started the attack with thirty fighters and left with only three.
And with the second Death Star the Rebellion literally put it all on the line to attack the Death Star. Every ship they had was present for the attack.

But apparently the new rebellion managed to fund and build an entire invasion fleet capable of crushing the galaxy while in exile in under 30 years. At some point you have to ask what kind of brainiacs run the Republic. And how many of them made up the resistance forces.

Do you mean the First Order? The First Order that, apparently, hid out in the Unknown Regions (which were mostly unexplored) as they illegally built up there forces?

They're supposed to be sympathetic, but the writers went so far to make them the underdogs that they just look too stupid to breathe.

What makes the Resistance so stupid? Please give me examples of how you reached this conclusion.

twistedmic:

crimson5pheonix:

Yes, all their bombers. One of the squads had 5 to begin with. Looking stuff up on wookiepedia, what we see fleeing is the entire resistance such as it is. Meanwhile the FO has forces in reserve. So to bring it back, that was a single isolated target of very high value, it is about the best the resistance could hope for for a guerrilla attack and Poe crushed it with an amazing tactical play. But the difference in their war potential is so vast as to make it absolutely meaningless from a pure military standpoint. But big plays like that work well as propaganda pieces to get people to join your side and make up that difference in potential.

First off, the Dreadnought was not a single isolated target, it had three Star Destroyers as backup. Plus the First Order came to the Resistance while they were trying to run. The First Order was looking for, and keyed up for a fight while the Resistance was not. Guerrilla forces generally do not take the bait and fight when their larger and more powerful enemy wants them to. They strike when their enemy is not prepared and they strike where their enemy is not expecting them.
And loosing a large portion of your irreplaceable material and personnel in an unauthorized and unneeded attack is not an "Amazing tactical play". It is wasteful showboating.

The Resistance is just that, a resistance against the First Order. They are not a large military force. If I recall, the French resistance during World War II did not directly assault large groups of Nazis or go toe to toe with them in open conflict. They sabotaged shit, picked off isolated troops and patrols and assassinated single individuals.

The French also had more than 400 people and weren't fighting a force that numbered in the millions. And the French had outside help, unlike the resistance. So tell me, what specifically could they do with less than 10 bombers and 25 fighters? What could they reasonably do to resist? I've laid out why that was a huge tactical victory in detail, what else were they going to do with their forces?

Good thing they could fit in the Millenium Falcon, there was no way off the planet they were fleeing to and hoping the FO didn't notice. It was such a great plan. But in any case, there was only someone on the other end of that channel because the plan was withheld up until that point. Yes, you can technically hide behind "need to know basis", but usually competent commanders will share their plans with their crews when things look bleak so they don't do anything drastic. Or mutiny. Because competent commanders understand how morale works.

If Holdo is incompetent for not sharing her plan with Poe (who has no need to know about the plan, no authority to enact any part of the plan, has proven to be insubordinate and has no fighter to pilot) what does that make Poe for not bringing his idea of hacking the tracker to Holdo? There was no reason to keep that idea from her other than to soothe his battered ego and simple spite.

There isn't one. This is a tragedy of errors. Poor communications kills. But it cuts both ways, Holdo likewise had no reason (note that reason isn't the same as ability) to withhold the plan and every reason to keep morale up.

Considering how few in number they were at that point, that is a significant mutiny. And if I were Poe I'd be having serious doubts about my side's position if unprecedented tactical victories are too costly. That's a giant neon sign that says "we have no way to win".

Again, loosing all of their bombers and bomber crews, which could not be replaced, is not a tactical victory. If Poe had managed to destroy the Dreadnoughts auto cannons himself, or with a few wingmen, and the Resistance escaped with all of their bombers and their full remaining force of fighters that would have been a tactical victory. If they had only lost one bomber, instead of all of them, then it may have been a tactical victory. But that assault effectively crippled the Resistance from space combat stand point.

>crippled

What were they going to do with the forces they have? They don't have enough forces to be a threat to anybody. Criminal organizations have stronger fleets than the resistance does.

crimson5pheonix:

And poorly because the best way to subvert that trope is with harsh realism. In Star Wars. And Johnson apparently isn't a good enough writer to pull that off.

And having every attack and heroic plan that Poe spearheaded lead to heavy casualties for the Resistance is not subverting the 'heroics trump calculations' or show what would realistically happen if an undermanned and under-armed force attacked a far stronger and better prepared army.

Well it falls apart when you say the resistance is supposed to be fighting the FO. They lost logistically long before episode 7. I don't mean an uphill battle, they lost. They have no plays they can make. Apart from the usual SW play of having the hero fight the big villain and thus causing the bad guys to collapse. So it can't even be realistic.

The rebels are without any means of re-supply period. Somehow the legitimate government of the galaxy is more poorly equipped then when it was an underground rebel fleet. The rebel fleet could stage a grand assault on something the size of the Death Star, twice. They had supply bases spread across the galaxy they could go to. They had an actual fucking fleet. And they managed to do all that under the thumb of the Empire.

The Resistance is not the legitimate government of the galaxy, the Republic was. Then the First Order destroyed the Republic system and their fleet.
Secondly, the first Death Star showed up on the Rebellion's doorstep and they made a frantic attempt to not die. Even then the Rebellion suffered massive losses. They started the attack with thirty fighters and left with only three.
And with the second Death Star the Rebellion literally put it all on the line to attack the Death Star. Every ship they had was present for the attack.

And that's more than what the resistance has. And that doesn't change that a bunch of exiles have infinitely better logistics than the galactic government.

But apparently the new rebellion managed to fund and build an entire invasion fleet capable of crushing the galaxy while in exile in under 30 years. At some point you have to ask what kind of brainiacs run the Republic. And how many of them made up the resistance forces.

Do you mean the First Order? The First Order that, apparently, hid out in the Unknown Regions (which were mostly unexplored) as they illegally built up there forces?

Yes, and they outperformed the government that could build in the open.

They're supposed to be sympathetic, but the writers went so far to make them the underdogs that they just look too stupid to breathe.

What makes the Resistance so stupid? Please give me examples of how you reached this conclusion.

Logistics

I've been posting logistics all through this thread. From a military standpoint the resistance is fucked no lube and have no excuse.

crimson5pheonix:

The French also had more than 400 people and weren't fighting a force that numbered in the millions. And the French had outside help, unlike the resistance. So tell me, what specifically could they do with less than 10 bombers and 25 fighters? What could they reasonably do to resist? I've laid out why that was a huge tactical victory in detail, what else were they going to do with their forces?

Preform hit and run raids on less prepared targets for one, not engaging in a pitched battle with a combat ready, heavily armed and armored target (with three Star Destroyers as backup) with thousands of TIE fighters that is the aggressor in the conflict for another. Harassing First Order supply lines is another thing they could have done with their smaller forces.
And I have stated that loosing your air/space combat effectiveness to knock out one (of several) Dreadnoughts when it was possible to cut and run is not a tactical victory.

There isn't one. This is a tragedy of errors. Poor communications kills. But it cuts both ways, Holdo likewise had no reason (note that reason isn't the same as ability) to withhold the plan and every reason to keep morale up.

Holdo had a valid reason for keeping her plan as secret as she did. Other than the surviving command staff, no other member needed to know the details of the plan. Holdo told them that the had a plan and to hold on to hope. And Holdo was vindicated in not telling Poe her plan because the second he found out he threw a temper-tantrum and staged a mutiny. Poe wanted to look like a hero and fight valiantly against the First Order and couldn't stand the idea of running and hiding. His glory-seeking directly led to the near destruction of the Resistance.
If he had stayed put, listened when Holdo said be patient/return to your post then the movie would have had a much different ending. There would still be hundreds of Resistance members and, arguably, Luke would not have died. Luke only sent his force projection across the galaxy in an attempt to distract Kylo Ren (and the First Order) long enough for his sister and the rest of the Resistance to escape.

What were they going to do with the forces they have? They don't have enough forces to be a threat to anybody. Criminal organizations have stronger fleets than the resistance does.

crimson5pheonix:

Again, hit and run raids, ambushes on softer targets, harassing supply lines etc.

Well it falls apart when you say the resistance is supposed to be fighting the FO. They lost logistically long before episode 7. I don't mean an uphill battle, they lost. They have no plays they can make. Apart from the usual SW play of having the hero fight the big villain and thus causing the bad guys to collapse. So it can't even be realistic.

Hit and run raids, attacks on unarmored targets, attacks on targets that are not fleet killing capital ships.

And that's more than what the resistance has. And that doesn't change that a bunch of exiles have infinitely better logistics than the galactic government.

The Resistance WAS NOT THE GALACTIC GOVERNMENT! The galactic government was the Republic, which got vaporized in The Force Awakens.

[quote]
Yes, and they outperformed the government that could build in the open.

The First Order was a violent, highly militant group whereas the Republic was peaceful-minded.

[quote]
Logistics

I've been posting logistics all through this thread. From a military standpoint the resistance is fucked no lube and have no excuse.

So the Resistance is stupid because it is a small force that cannot engage in direct, open conflict with a vastly more powerful military organization capable of resupplying their equipment and personnel?

Chimpzy:
Hyperspace jumps should logically be extremely accurate though, since deviating even a tiny fraction of a degree off course across interstellar distances could leave you millions of kilometers from your desired destination. Which is kind of a useless point to make, because it's bringing reality into a franchise that threats space battles like WWII naval/air combat. Can't help myself though. Like the whole Raddus hyperspace ramming thing. It's weaksauce. Real relativistic physics are way more badass. A 1 kg brick launched at 99,99% c would hit harder.

Whatever, don't mind me. Carry on.

I'd rather not carry on, but on the subject, as accurate as hyperspace is, it's not down to the level that would be required to hit the Supremacy in exactly the right spot.

Unless you're Han Solo, who can somehow hyperspace inside a planet's atmosphere, but that's on TFA.

crimson5pheonix:

And poorly because the best way to subvert that trope is with harsh realism. In Star Wars.

Yes, and? By the standards of Star Wars, Last Jedi is among the harshest there is (alongside Revenge and Empire) And Johnson apparently isn't a good enough writer to pull that off.

That's nitpicks that can usually be explained by "ego", not gaping plot holes by supposedly sympathetic characters.

So, let's see:

Sauron = Nitpicks

Poe/Holdo = Plotholes

Good to know.

The rebels are without any means of re-supply period. Somehow the legitimate government of the galaxy is more poorly equipped then when it was an underground rebel fleet.

It lost its capital and majority of its fleet in a single instant.

As much as I'd have liked to see New Republic forces in TLJ, the Republic is in more more disaray than the Resistance in TFA.

The rebel fleet could stage a grand assault on something the size of the Death Star, twice. They had supply bases spread across the galaxy they could go to. They had an actual fucking fleet. And they managed to do all that under the thumb of the Empire. But apparently the new rebellion managed to fund and build an entire invasion fleet capable of crushing the galaxy while in exile in under 30 years. At some point you have to ask what kind of brainiacs run the Republic. And how many of them made up the resistance forces.

-The First Order already had a sizable portion of Empire forces to build from, considering it was following Palpatine's directives post-Jedi.

-The First Order gets to build its forces on the galactic rim with a Republic that dismisses it, while the rebels had to do so with the Empire constantly hounding them.

-That the Republic was inefficient and underestimated the First Order is well established prior to Last Jedi.

crimson5pheonix:

The French also had more than 400 people and weren't fighting a force that numbered in the millions. And the French had outside help, unlike the resistance. So tell me, what specifically could they do with less than 10 bombers and 25 fighters? What could they reasonably do to resist? I've laid out why that was a huge tactical victory in detail, what else were they going to do with their forces?

Build them up, rally support?

You use the French Resistance as a counterpoint, but there's more in common with them than you think, in that the SW Resistance can count on outside help over time as well. The film makes this clear at the end.

There isn't one. This is a tragedy of errors. Poor communications kills. But it cuts both ways, Holdo likewise had no reason (note that reason isn't the same as ability) to withhold the plan and every reason to keep morale up.

While that's true (as I already entertained long ago, in this very thread), more of the onus is on Poe. He's the one with the character arc. He's the one outside the chain of command.

What were they going to do with the forces they have? They don't have enough forces to be a threat to anybody. Criminal organizations have stronger fleets than the resistance does.

See above.

crimson5pheonix:

Well it falls apart when you say the resistance is supposed to be fighting the FO. They lost logistically long before episode 7. I don't mean an uphill battle, they lost. They have no plays they can make. Apart from the usual SW play of having the hero fight the big villain and thus causing the bad guys to collapse. So it can't even be realistic.

Again, see above.

The Resistance is in a position to cultivate followers. The First Order has lost its leader and is being ruled by a tempremental proto-Sith. The film isn't even subtle about the first point.

And that's more than what the resistance has. And that doesn't change that a bunch of exiles have infinitely better logistics than the galactic government.

...you mean the galactic government that was wiped out?

You...do know that the Resistance is a separate entity from the New Republic, right? That the NR gave them support, but that was about it?

Yes, and they outperformed the government that could build in the open.

Again, see above.

If I write something/someone to be flawed, and people claim that the flaw is a plothole, then that isn't pointing out a plothole, that's missing out on worldbuilding.

twistedmic:

crimson5pheonix:

The French also had more than 400 people and weren't fighting a force that numbered in the millions. And the French had outside help, unlike the resistance. So tell me, what specifically could they do with less than 10 bombers and 25 fighters? What could they reasonably do to resist? I've laid out why that was a huge tactical victory in detail, what else were they going to do with their forces?

Preform hit and run raids on less prepared targets for one, not engaging in a pitched battle with a combat ready, heavily armed and armored target (with three Star Destroyers as backup) with thousands of TIE fighters that is the aggressor in the conflict for another. Harassing First Order supply lines is another thing they could have done with their smaller forces.
And I have stated that loosing your air/space combat effectiveness to knock out one (of several) Dreadnoughts when it was possible to cut and run is not a tactical victory.

Like what? How? What would they be able to hit that would have an effect on the FO while not costing a single ship? Come up with a hypothetical.

There isn't one. This is a tragedy of errors. Poor communications kills. But it cuts both ways, Holdo likewise had no reason (note that reason isn't the same as ability) to withhold the plan and every reason to keep morale up.

Holdo had a valid reason for keeping her plan as secret as she did. Other than the surviving command staff, no other member needed to know the details of the plan. Holdo told them that the had a plan and to hold on to hope. And Holdo was vindicated in not telling Poe her plan because the second he found out he threw a temper-tantrum and staged a mutiny. Poe wanted to look like a hero and fight valiantly against the First Order and couldn't stand the idea of running and hiding. His glory-seeking directly led to the near destruction of the Resistance.
If he had stayed put, listened when Holdo said be patient/return to your post then the movie would have had a much different ending. There would still be hundreds of Resistance members and, arguably, Luke would not have died. Luke only sent his force projection across the galaxy in an attempt to distract Kylo Ren (and the First Order) long enough for his sister and the rest of the Resistance to escape.

Once again, reason isn't the same as ability. She could withhold the plan. This caused the plan to fail though, so she shouldn't have. She only told her plan when it was already too late to do anything about it and when Poe had put another plan into action. It's her fuckup.

And let's not get into the horrid mess that is Luke in this movie.

What were they going to do with the forces they have? They don't have enough forces to be a threat to anybody. Criminal organizations have stronger fleets than the resistance does.

Again, hit and run raids, ambushes on softer targets, harassing supply lines etc.

Again, how and what? What supply line isn't going to be guarded? What soft target is going to buy anything? Hit and run what?

Well it falls apart when you say the resistance is supposed to be fighting the FO. They lost logistically long before episode 7. I don't mean an uphill battle, they lost. They have no plays they can make. Apart from the usual SW play of having the hero fight the big villain and thus causing the bad guys to collapse. So it can't even be realistic.

Hit and run raids, attacks on unarmored targets, attacks on targets that are not fleet killing capital ships.

You can't fight a force the size of the FO with a couple dozen ships. It actually doesn't work. There is no path to victory unless they can take out capital ships with literally 0 casualties.

And that's more than what the resistance has. And that doesn't change that a bunch of exiles have infinitely better logistics than the galactic government.

The Resistance WAS NOT THE GALACTIC GOVERNMENT! The galactic government was the Republic, which got vaporized in The Force Awakens.

The resistance is supposed to be aligned with the Republic. And the Republic lost their entire fleet to a single shot. How does that even happen? Why does the resistance have no more ships? Functionally how do you fuck up that hard when you're ostensibly in control of a galaxy for 3 decades?

Yes, and they outperformed the government that could build in the open.

The First Order was a violent, highly militant group whereas the Republic was peaceful-minded.

Backstory says the Republic knew about the First Order and knew they were violent dickheads. But the Republic was headed by people too dumb to breathe.

Logistics

I've been posting logistics all through this thread. From a military standpoint the resistance is fucked no lube and have no excuse.

So the Resistance is stupid because it is a small force that cannot engage in direct, open conflict with a vastly more powerful military organization capable of resupplying their equipment and personnel?

Yes, because they have no excuse for being in this situation. The old rebel alliance was better equipped when they had to dodge the galactic empire. How do you screw logistics this hard?

crimson5pheonix:

And poorly because the best way to subvert that trope is with harsh realism. In Star Wars.

Yes, and? By the standards of Star Wars, Last Jedi is among the harshest there is (alongside Revenge and Empire) And Johnson apparently isn't a good enough writer to pull that off.

He isn't because despite all the "subversions", it goes right back to the comfort zone of SW. The harsh realism disappears to the stock heroics there always is.

That's nitpicks that can usually be explained by "ego", not gaping plot holes by supposedly sympathetic characters.

So, let's see:

Sauron = Nitpicks

Poe/Holdo = Plotholes

Good to know.

Yes, explaining how the heroes got weaker when they've held power for 30 years is a pretty big plot hole.

The rebels are without any means of re-supply period. Somehow the legitimate government of the galaxy is more poorly equipped then when it was an underground rebel fleet.

It lost its capital and majority of its fleet in a single instant.

As much as I'd have liked to see New Republic forces in TLJ, the Republic is in more more disaray than the Resistance in TFA.

How? Why were all their forces only in one system? Why did they have so few forces that they could be easily staged in one system? What were they doing there? How did underground exiles outbuild them? What happened to all the equipment the rebels had spread through the galaxy before? Was it decommissioned? Was the Republic just suicidal?

The rebel fleet could stage a grand assault on something the size of the Death Star, twice. They had supply bases spread across the galaxy they could go to. They had an actual fucking fleet. And they managed to do all that under the thumb of the Empire. But apparently the new rebellion managed to fund and build an entire invasion fleet capable of crushing the galaxy while in exile in under 30 years. At some point you have to ask what kind of brainiacs run the Republic. And how many of them made up the resistance forces.

-The First Order already had a sizable portion of Empire forces to build from, considering it was following Palpatine's directives post-Jedi.

Most of their stuff is new. Like those capital ships they have dozens of. And the Supremecy, which is the single largest space craft to appear in canon Star Wars outside of the Death Star.

-The First Order gets to build its forces on the galactic rim with a Republic that dismisses it, while the rebels had to do so with the Empire constantly hounding them.

Yes, so how do they have less now when they could build in the open?

-That the Republic was inefficient and underestimated the First Order is well established prior to Last Jedi.

Yeah, they're a bunch of fucking morons. I mean, the empire might be an oppressive autocratic dictatorship, but apparently the Republic is nonfunctional.

crimson5pheonix:

The French also had more than 400 people and weren't fighting a force that numbered in the millions. And the French had outside help, unlike the resistance. So tell me, what specifically could they do with less than 10 bombers and 25 fighters? What could they reasonably do to resist? I've laid out why that was a huge tactical victory in detail, what else were they going to do with their forces?

Build them up, rally support?

You use the French Resistance as a counterpoint, but there's more in common with them than you think, in that the SW Resistance can count on outside help over time as well. The film makes this clear at the end.

No, at least not in the way the French resistance could. They could count on actual armies showing up, with logistical ability and trained forces. Are the manufacturing companies that have apparently been sitting on their asses going to suddenly start making weapons for the resistance now? They couldn't before, apparently. Are a bunch of ace pilots in hiding? Will there suddenly be stocked bases across the galaxy?

There isn't one. This is a tragedy of errors. Poor communications kills. But it cuts both ways, Holdo likewise had no reason (note that reason isn't the same as ability) to withhold the plan and every reason to keep morale up.

While that's true (as I already entertained long ago, in this very thread), more of the onus is on Poe. He's the one with the character arc. He's the one outside the chain of command.

When there's a coup in the military they will almost certainly punish the person who initiated it, usually the people who took part in it, and sometimes the person who was targeted. This is one of those times when they'd probably punish the target. Or would, if she didn't sacrifice herself.

What were they going to do with the forces they have? They don't have enough forces to be a threat to anybody. Criminal organizations have stronger fleets than the resistance does.

See above.

There has yet to be an answer to this.

crimson5pheonix:

Well it falls apart when you say the resistance is supposed to be fighting the FO. They lost logistically long before episode 7. I don't mean an uphill battle, they lost. They have no plays they can make. Apart from the usual SW play of having the hero fight the big villain and thus causing the bad guys to collapse. So it can't even be realistic.

Again, see above.

The Resistance is in a position to cultivate followers. The First Order has lost its leader and is being ruled by a tempremental proto-Sith. The film isn't even subtle about the first point.

Does that fix their equipment and transportation shortage? The resources needed?

And that's more than what the resistance has. And that doesn't change that a bunch of exiles have infinitely better logistics than the galactic government.

...you mean the galactic government that was wiped out?

You...do know that the Resistance is a separate entity from the New Republic, right? That the NR gave them support, but that was about it?

Yes, they and their entire fleet were wiped out by 1 shot. Literally one-shotted. There should never be a point where you can say your fleet was one-shotted.

Yes, and they outperformed the government that could build in the open.

Again, see above.

If I write something/someone to be flawed, and people claim that the flaw is a plothole, then that isn't pointing out a plothole, that's missing out on worldbuilding.

It is when the heroes dropped about 30 IQ in 30 years.

crimson5pheonix:

Like what? How? What would they be able to hit that would have an effect on the FO while not costing a single ship? Come up with a hypothetical.

They can start taking ships out when:

a) They're in a position to be resupplied.

b) Have greater numbers.

c) Aren't in the midst of running for their lives.

And let's not get into the horrid mess that is Luke in this movie.

You mean one of the best elements?

The resistance is supposed to be aligned with the Republic. And the Republic lost their entire fleet to a single shot. How does that even happen? Why does the resistance have no more ships? Functionally how do you fuck up that hard when you're ostensibly in control of a galaxy for 3 decades?

-It wasn't all the fleet, it was the majority of the fleet.

-Fleets are logically kept in place in a hub.

-The Resistance had limited support from the New Republic, and what support it did have was kept in the shadows.

-The Republic was marred by infighting, dismissiveness of the First Order, and a reluctance to commit to war after the horrors of previous conflicts (think post-WWI Europe).

Yes, explaining how the heroes got weaker when they've held power for 30 years is a pretty big plot hole.

Leia and co. aren't in command of the Republic. Leia is the one who ISN'T dismissing the threat of the First Order

How? Why were all their forces only in one system?

For the last time, it isn't ALL of their forces. You might as well ask why the US kept the majority of its Pacific Fleet in one place in WWII.

Why did they have so few forces that they could be easily staged in one system?

No-one is expecting Starkiller Base. Keeping ships together is generally a good thing.

What were they doing there?

...are you seriously asking why a government's defence forces are focused in the centre of power of that government?

How did underground exiles outbuild them?

Because the First Order has had decades to build up forces while the Republic move to demiltiarize, not to mention that the First Order is committed to war, along with having a sizable portion of Empire forces to build up from.

What happened to all the equipment the rebels had spread through the galaxy before? Was it decommissioned?

Not sure.

Was the Republic just suicidal?

I dunno - were the UK and France in the face of Nazi Germany (of which the parallels should be obvious)?

This is already explained. Even if you aren't familiar with the EU, TFA and TLJ tell us enough to know that in an instant, that the Republic loses its government and its fleet to a weapon that they didn't think existed, all while following the same hope/path of the Allies pre-WWII. Similar to the prequel trilogy (Rome), the sequel trilogy is wearing its influences on its sleeve.

Yes, so how do they have less now when they could build in the open?

Who? The First Order or the Resistance?

The First Order can build with impunity because it was clustered on the fringes of the galaxy, with the Republic dismissing its threat. The Resistance can't do that because it's a much smaller group that only had minimal support from the Republic.

Yeah, they're a bunch of fucking morons. I mean, the empire might be an oppressive autocratic dictatorship, but apparently the Republic is nonfunctional.

So...like the old republic?

This isn't that new. The New Republic was dysfunctional, which is why Leia left it.

crimson5pheonix:

Does that fix their equipment and transportation shortage? The resources needed?

In time, yes, because the film makes it clear that this is what's going to happen.

This is BASIC STORYTELLING.

Yes, they and their entire fleet were wiped out by 1 shot. Literally one-shotted. There should never be a point where you can say your fleet was one-shotted.

FOR THE LAST GODDAMN FUCKING TIME IT WASN'T THE WHOLE FLEET

Also, up until this point in time, there was never a weapon like Starkiller Base.

Like, if aliens turned up today, and utilized a weapon no human had ever heard of to wipe out all our miltiary forces (which is a trope sci-fi has used already) in a single strike, no sane human is going to be going "well, you should have prepared for that."

Does the Republic know about the First Order? Yes. Did it know about Starkiller Base? No.

It is when the heroes dropped about 30 IQ in 30 years.

So, Leia strikes out on her own to form the Resistance, to fight the First Order when the Republic won't, and SHE'S the stupid one.

You...do realize that none of the OT characters are in charge of the Republic, right? Like, none of them, at the time TFA takes place?

I'm going to consolidate some things in this post because it's becoming a case of "look up look up look up", so sorry if things get jumbled out of order.

Hawki:

crimson5pheonix:

Like what? How? What would they be able to hit that would have an effect on the FO while not costing a single ship? Come up with a hypothetical.

They can start taking ships out when:

a) They're in a position to be resupplied.

b) Have greater numbers.

c) Aren't in the midst of running for their lives.

They'll never logically be in that position. Even if they get people, the people wouldn't come with the ships and supplies to be a fighting force. They'll have an unruly mob of peasant farmers with handheld weapons and a few transport craft. The rebels in the original series were secretly being given attack craft by various manufacturing firms, which doesn't seem to be happening in the new series and it's now far too late for them to ramp up production.

And let's not get into the horrid mess that is Luke in this movie.

You mean one of the best elements?

Luke's big message was that he wasn't going to do what his predecessors did, and then proceeds to sacrifice himself just like his predecessor did.

Not to mention he saw the light of redemption in the second darkest soul in the galaxy and strove to redeem him, but then nearly strikes down an angsty teenager. Good job Luke.

And it's not just me who notices problems with Luke's story here

https://movieweb.com/last-jedi-luke-story-mark-hamill-doesnt-understand/

Yes, explaining how the heroes got weaker when they've held power for 30 years is a pretty big plot hole.

Leia and co. aren't in command of the Republic. Leia is the one who ISN'T dismissing the threat of the First Order

And yet she couldn't build up a military. Or, you know, keep tabs on the FO. I know the Republic itself screwed the pooch the hardest, but there's no excuse for this situation.

What were they doing there?

...are you seriously asking why a government's defence forces are focused in the centre of power of that government?

Yes, because part of being a government is protecting your territory. There are still things like criminals and pirates, which is something your naval force deals with. Additionally concentrating your forces has some advantages, but also has many disadvantages (beyond getting destroyed in an alpha strike). It takes longer to have them leave port if they need to, it takes longer to get to a threat location, it can cause havoc if they do engage, so on. It was actually a terrible idea to have their military all bunched up in one spot even ignoring Star Killer. Hell, the FO probably could have just ported in their whole fleet along with the Supremacy and just laid waste to their entire fleet in an alpha strike. But the FO had a better weapon and the sense to use it.

How did underground exiles outbuild them?

Because the First Order has had decades to build up forces while the Republic move to demiltiarize, not to mention that the First Order is committed to war, along with having a sizable portion of Empire forces to build up from.

In other words, they were smarter. I know we're banging on the drum of "the Republic really are that dumb", but it's not like the resistance got a real force either.

What happened to all the equipment the rebels had spread through the galaxy before? Was it decommissioned?

Not sure.

And that.

Was the Republic just suicidal?

I dunno - were the UK and France in the face of Nazi Germany (of which the parallels should be obvious)?

This is already explained. Even if you aren't familiar with the EU, TFA and TLJ tell us enough to know that in an instant, that the Republic loses its government and its fleet to a weapon that they didn't think existed, all while following the same hope/path of the Allies pre-WWII. Similar to the prequel trilogy (Rome), the sequel trilogy is wearing its influences on its sleeve.

Granted yes. Also granted that they are still more strategically inept than even the UK and France. They did have some level of military and a means to protect themselves. France was using outdated battlefield tactics more than just being too stupid to breathe and the UK was decentralized enough that the blitz didn't cripple them. It's also harder for these parallels to make sense with the ongoing story since the UK and France had other allies that could draw fire from Germany while the Republic stands alone.

Unless the Yuuzhan Vong show up for some inane reason, but hey, at least the FO won't be the worst game in town anymore :D

Yes, so how do they have less now when they could build in the open?

Who? The First Order or the Resistance?

The First Order can build with impunity because it was clustered on the fringes of the galaxy, with the Republic dismissing its threat. The Resistance can't do that because it's a much smaller group that only had minimal support from the Republic.

The rebels had only the most underground support and had to build under the Empire's eyes. They still managed to end the conflict with dozens of strategic ships, hundreds or thousands of small craft, and thousands of soldiers. The resistance is given 30 years to prepare when they don't have to hide anything, and they can't manage a fraction of their hail mary final assault crew. You can say they weren't supported by the government, but why couldn't they drum up support themselves? They did it before.

Yeah, they're a bunch of fucking morons. I mean, the empire might be an oppressive autocratic dictatorship, but apparently the Republic is nonfunctional.

So...like the old republic?

This isn't that new. The New Republic was dysfunctional, which is why Leia left it.

And that's who we're supposed to be rooting for? "It didn't work before, but let's try it again!"

They're only sympathetic because they're up against Nazis.

crimson5pheonix:

Does that fix their equipment and transportation shortage? The resources needed?

In time, yes, because the film makes it clear that this is what's going to happen.

This is BASIC STORYTELLING.

Literally how, logically, does this work?

It is when the heroes dropped about 30 IQ in 30 years.

So, Leia strikes out on her own to form the Resistance, to fight the First Order when the Republic won't, and SHE'S the stupid one.

You...do realize that none of the OT characters are in charge of the Republic, right? Like, none of them, at the time TFA takes place?

Because apparently she's a terrible leader now.

The resistance is supposed to be aligned with the Republic. And the Republic lost their entire fleet to a single shot. How does that even happen? Why does the resistance have no more ships? Functionally how do you fuck up that hard when you're ostensibly in control of a galaxy for 3 decades?

-It wasn't all the fleet, it was the majority of the fleet.

-Fleets are logically kept in place in a hub.

-The Resistance had limited support from the New Republic, and what support it did have was kept in the shadows.

-The Republic was marred by infighting, dismissiveness of the First Order, and a reluctance to commit to war after the horrors of previous conflicts (think post-WWI Europe).

How? Why were all their forces only in one system?

For the last time, it isn't ALL of their forces. You might as well ask why the US kept the majority of its Pacific Fleet in one place in WWII.

Why did they have so few forces that they could be easily staged in one system?

No-one is expecting Starkiller Base. Keeping ships together is generally a good thing.

Yes, they and their entire fleet were wiped out by 1 shot. Literally one-shotted. There should never be a point where you can say your fleet was one-shotted.

FOR THE LAST GODDAMN FUCKING TIME IT WASN'T THE WHOLE FLEET

Also, up until this point in time, there was never a weapon like Starkiller Base.

Like, if aliens turned up today, and utilized a weapon no human had ever heard of to wipe out all our miltiary forces (which is a trope sci-fi has used already) in a single strike, no sane human is going to be going "well, you should have prepared for that."

Does the Republic know about the First Order? Yes. Did it know about Starkiller Base? No.

If it wasn't their entire fleet it may as well have been. They haven't shown up once, they must be less of a fighting fleet than even the resistance at this point, and the resistance is already not a threat.

Specifically to the pacific fleet point, the US doesn't keep the pacific fleet in one spot. On top of them performing patrols and the like, they also have multiple bases that are spread out. That's part of why we still had a pacific fleet after Pearl Harbor, since the whole fleet wasn't there. Japan had to split it's forces to attack the other bases that were held and couldn't really do anything about any patrolling ships unless they came across one on accident. This is how smart people run a military.

Now, onto the meat of why Poe do good. The next movie will go in one of three directions.

1. The obvious Star Wars thing happens and all the people rising up across the galaxy will join the resistance and there will suddenly be supplies, weapons, and crafts for them all to stage a grand battle against the FO in a key moment, meeting or exceeding the numbers they had as the rebel alliance 30 years ago. And we're going to ignore how logistically impossible that actually is, but whatever. The point is, with hundreds or thousands of small craft, the 30 or so craft that Poe lost in his plan are not even close to a crippling loss of battle potential in the end and his play remains a major tactical victory in the long run and Leia/Holdo overreacted.

2. The "gritty realism" approach where they may or may not get a bunch of people willing to help, but the writers remember that this doesn't solve the logistics problems inherent to the story at this point, so their forces aren't mobile. Just causing problems for FO forces trying to take over individual planets. That leaves the resolution to the story and their tactical play to sneak in somewhere and duel the big bad which causes the FO forces to implode and lose (somehow, but this is SW and that's just how things work), which of course negates the whole "gritty realism" thing they're going for, but this is Johnson's idea of subversion so whatever. The point is that such a small wing of attack craft wouldn't have a roll to play in a stealth mission and the resistance should have expected that they weren't going to get their attack craft reinforced, so those attack craft were never going to be the heart of their strategy and Leia/Holdo overreacted.

3. The Bitter Writer approach where they get some space reinforcements but not a lot, such that characters can whine "oh no, if only Poe hadn't wasted all those attack craft before, they'd be enough to totally tip this fight in our favor", but the only way for that small number of attack craft to swing a battle is if they made up a noticeable percent of the reinforced resistance and the only way for a force that small to reasonably threaten the FO is if something like 90% of their forces get sucked into a vortex between movies and forgotten about. While it would make Leia and Holdo right, it'd only be for very stupid and contrived reasons.

The reason why the excuse of "it crippled their battle potential" is bullshit from the start is that for it to cripple their battle potential, it had to be a threatening battle potential on it's own. It had to be a force capable of swinging a battle, whether tactically or strategically (and they were tactical craft). The force Poe lost doesn't come close to threatening the FO in any meaningful way, which means transitively it was not really meaningful to lose. They could pull off something really cool in a big battle, but that comes with the caveat that there is a big battle, which implies there are more forces than just the lost team. And as battles increase in scale, the impact of individual units decreases outside of specific edge cases like the first Death Star. So unless the final battle ends with Poe pulling a Luke and hitting a weak spot with a single shot, no losses they suffered up to this point meaningfully affect their final battle potential. And even then, it's Poe making a single shot, so the rest of the lost craft are still meaningless. Leia and Holdo overreacted. #PoeDidNothingWrong

Trooper924:

Given the circumstances, I think Holdo can be forgiven for being a bit short with Poe. I mean, most of their leadership just got killed, their main leader is in a coma, the First Order is tailgating them, taking potshots at their collective asses, and it all falls on her to pull them out of the fire.

So she lost her cool and told him to screw off--but she had bigger fish to fry and couldn't afford wasting time trying to sell her plan to some hotshot grunt (especially one who just got demoted for getting a bunch of people killed).

You know, I've come to a realization recently: this is a movie about failiure.

Hear me out. Poe, in destroying the Dreadnought against orders, did what he thought was right. The FO lost a major ship! Leia, in demoting Poe for losing their entire bombing wing and space superiority wing, was right to demote him for acting against orders. At that time, they didn't know the FO could track them through hyperspace. At no point later on is this information given to Holdo, leastwise when it would be of any use.

Would the Dreadnought have destroyed the Resistance fleet after following them? Maybe, maybe not. No way to know. Likewise, if the Resistance still had their fighters, would Kylo Ren's squadron have been able to decapitate Resistance command? Also, no way to know. With a fighter screen and a squadron of heavy bombers, they might've ended up decapitating the FO, escaping in the command confusion as the tracker was temporarily disabled.

Did Holdo make a mistake? Yes. Is the mistake easy to justify, especially considering Poe's decisions regarding intel and subsequent crazy plan? Also yes. Was Leia wrong to be as harsh with Poe as she was? Solid maybe. She's been fighting space Nazis since she was 14, I can imagine she's somewhat frustrated.

I'd say that, I en their individual situations and lack of being able to see the future, Leia and Holdo made the wiser decisions.

crimson5pheonix:

If it wasn't their entire fleet it may as well have been. They haven't shown up once, they must be less of a fighting fleet than even the resistance at this point, and the resistance is already not a threat.

The Last Jedo seems to take place mere DAYS after the entire Republic Home System is destroyed by a doomsday weapon. No military force in existence (real or fictional) could hope to field any surviving fleet or troops within a week of having ALL of their leadership destroyed.
Even the Empire from the original series was in big trouble after the battle of Endor.

The reason why the excuse of "it crippled their battle potential" is bullshit from the start is that for it to cripple their battle potential, it had to be a threatening battle potential on it's own. It had to be a force capable of swinging a battle, whether tactically or strategically (and they were tactical craft). The force Poe lost doesn't come close to threatening the FO in any meaningful way, which means transitively it was not really meaningful to lose. They could pull off something really cool in a big battle, but that comes with the caveat that there is a big battle, which implies there are more forces than just the lost team. And as battles increase in scale, the impact of individual units decreases outside of specific edge cases like the first Death Star. So unless the final battle ends with Poe pulling a Luke and hitting a weak spot with a single shot, no losses they suffered up to this point meaningfully affect their final battle potential. And even then, it's Poe making a single shot, so the rest of the lost craft are still meaningless. Leia and Holdo overreacted. #PoeDidNothingWrong

It seems to me that you believe that the one and only way to fight is a straight up, grand pitched battle with both sides lining up shoulder to shoulder and marching across the field with banners flying and fifes playing. But that is simply not true. Not in Star Wars, not in real life and not in any fiction I can recall reading or watching. Small scale battles can have dramatic consequences. For example, those five or six bombers that the Resistance had could have been used to destroy a First Order medical station or medical supply depot. Because of those lost supplies a plague breaks out on a First Order facility. Because of that plague that particular facility is weakened. Because of the weakened facility the Resistance is able to attack it with fewer losses. The First Order loses a facility and their combat effectiveness drops. Or say the Resistance uses those bombers to destroy an agricultural depot or planet. The First Order doesn't have enough food for their troops. First Order troops revolt because they are starving, discord is sown within the First Order. Or because they lost food production capability the First Order tries to take food from nearby planets and those planets fight back to keep their supplies.
Let's say the Resistance uses their bombers to destroy an arms factory (blasters/thermal detonators/armor etc.), the First Order doesn't have enough weapons to fully supply their troops. The First Order loses combat effectiveness.
The Resistance could use their bombers and fighters to destroy a fuel processing plant, the First Order cannot fuel all of their ships or fighters, the First Order loses combat effectiveness.
The Resistance could infiltrate a First Order supply depot or shipyard and steal ether ships, weapons or fuel then sabotage the depot/shipyard. First Order loses materiel and manufacturing capabilities.
Here's another hypothetical- Holdo's plan went off without a hitch (because Poe didn't act like a spoiled glory-seeking brat) and the Resistance is able to hole-up on Crait until Rey shows up with Luke. Luke and Leia are able to gather enough allies that they are able to get resupplied. They now have a fighting force of hundreds that can be scattered around the galaxy to train more fighters or work on sabotaging First Order facilities and factories. As they gain support the Resistance can chip away at the First Order's strength. The First Order weakens or has to spread itself thinner and thinner to try and cover all of their territory from Resistance attacks, more an more First Order ships are destroyed or disabled.
The First Order is hurt without the Resistance having to duke it out in open conflict with a prepared enemy.

crimson5pheonix:
True, but there isn't a lingering question overhead of "what did Sauron do wrong?" for the readers to ponder the writer's decision.

- "Hi general, you know you told me to hold the line and not attack that fortified position in front of my brigade?"
- "Er, yes, colonel, I do"
- "Well I assaulted it anyway. WOO-HAH! Cost a whole battalion, but we took it!"
- "You fuckwit. We've launched an outflanking manoeuver, they would have been forced to abandon it. You've wasted 500 lives for nothing."
- "Right... so where's my medal, then?"

"Better than evens" presumes your commander is competent. Holdo isn't that.

But why not? I honestly cannot see a single convincing reason to believe she is an incompetent commander.

She takes over during an utter shitshow with nothing to do but run, enacts a reasonable plan to escape but is unable to fully carry it out due to unknowable factors beyond her control, and ends up completing the job by plan B of sacrificing herself.

If "incompetent" means declining to take time out from dealing with a crisis to tell a recently demoted, relatively junior officer her whole plan in detail, then some people have a very unrealistic notion of what competence is.

crimson5pheonix:

If it wasn't their entire fleet it may as well have been. They haven't shown up once, they must be less of a fighting fleet than even the resistance at this point, and the resistance is already not a threat.

Now this I concur with. It is to me a huge problem with the new Star Wars.

The irony is that politically it's supposed to be fighting for a democratic, relatively egalitarian Republic. And yet it's really just about a few superheroes. Fuck the fleets and the armies, one person with a lightsaber and a light freighter crew is all you really need to save the galaxy.

In order to set up the tedious underdog trope (i.e. repeat the original trilogy) and justify the superheroes doing all the heavy lifting, some stupid reason has to be manufactured why the Republic isn't using a fleet. There's no good way to do this, be it that the Republic left their entire fleet in a system that was destroyed wholesale (which is alarmingly deus ex machina), or that it was otherwise deployed too incompetently to resist an invasion, or it's far too small, etc. Implicitly, the Republic is shit. Why defend it? It was taken over by the emperor, and a few decades later after restoration, it is utterly inept in preparation to resist the descendant space-fascists of the Empire when they come a-knocking. Once in a lifetime might be bad luck, twice is incompetence. It is a state not worth defending, because it could barely do more to demonstrate its inability to protect its own population.

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