Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 NEXT
 

Phasmal:

Damien Granz:
Snip.

I didn't say anything about women doing anything or complaining (I did once fall for a friend and never complained when he went out with another friend of ours. I never really made my feelings known so what did I expect but that was yeeeears ago).

But I do take issue with you thinking that dating coming down to attractiveness means everyone is shallow. It doesn't. If you find someone physically repellant but can still manage to make a sexual and romantic relationship with them then more power to you. But I don't think I could.

If your point is that everyone in the friendzone (male or female) should stop banging on about it, then I wholeheartedly agree.

(And also, it may happen just as much on the woman side but you dont get a load of them bitching on this very forum about how all men suck and thats kind of how this thing got started).

No, but I've heard the whole "Men are pigs that want sex, women only want romance and personality" sort of thing a lot more.

Damien Granz:

No, but I've heard the whole "Men are pigs that want sex, women only want romance and personality" sort of thing a lot more.

I've heard that too. Usually its from dudes who think that women spend their time staring wistfully off into the distance thinking about the best father for their future babies. Not to say some women dont buy into that stereotype.

Generalisations suck and we should stop using them. But everybody does, its just human nature.

Damien Granz:

It'd be exactly the same as if a guy had a female friend that was super nice or sweet and smart and funny and all that, but that guy ended up dating and having sex some super hot blond air headed type girl, because the first girl was too fat or dumpy or whatever.

We'd call him a pig, and a bastard, and everybody would lament "Why don't men want women for their personality? Why don't men fall in love to have sex, rather than the other way around?"

No, I wouldn't in fact. I'd find his taste poor, but why would I complain? If he doesn't want to be with her then he doesn't want to be with her. If I find her nice, sweet, smart, and funny, but the other guy doesn't or doesn't care for those qualities then why would I say anything. I should expect him to love her or something?

Also, this reminds me of this thread: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.366138-Poll-Dumped-a-girl-Help-Please

Admittedly not due to looks, but I don't see much rage at him for dumping his gf and going after another person he's more attracted do. If I were to believe you I'd expect to see a house fall on him or something.

Your example doesn't really fit anyway, since when do we think the people complaining about the friend zone are usually "super nice or sweet and smart and funny and all that"? I really don't usually see enough info to say whether they seem like an appealing person or not. Your example seems suspiciously constructed.

Then you're telling said fat dumpy girl "If you were REALLY a nice girl, you'd just accept the fact that men only want attractive figures. And if you ever stop being that guy's friend and dealing with that, then you're the horrible person for moving on."

What? Where did the post you quoted say anything close to that? I looked back at it just to be sure, and I didn't see him say that all women like X, so where did all men like Y come from?

I mean, yeah, you're right, that shallow guy in that situation, shouldn't be forced to stop dating really hot girls because somebody happens to like him, and that her kindness doesn't mean he should have to give up on his pursuits to date her. But his actions still makes him a bit of an asshole.

What did he do that makes him an asshole? He didn't date someone that he wasn't interested in?

With your shoe metaphor, these aren't shoes, but real live people. Should said red shoes sit around and watch you wear the new pair of shoes when they love you, knowing how hard and painful that would be?

Moving on and not being forced to deal with watching their love affection with another person makes them an automatic bastard?

Well it seems to say that their feelings exist only when reciprocated, and that feelings of friendship do not exist if feelings of love are not reciprocated. If someone rejects me I would still wish them well. I'd still like them, they still possess the qualities that made me like them in the first place. I might want to distance myself from them somewhat until I get over things, but not being a friend at all anymore seems drastic.

Should said pair of red shoes have you come crying to them and complaining about how the new pair of shoes hurt you or only wants you for your body, because that's what a 'good' pair of shoes does, but you still refuse to wear the red shoes no matter how comfortable because they're not as attractive?

Do tell, how did you determine they were comfortable? It sounds like the person in question didn't find them very appealing. How would you presume to know which people would or would not be a good match? You feel that you can ignore the judgment of the rejecting person?

Also you could tell them that it bothers you to talk about their love interest.

Is it fair to say that seeing people as interchangeable accessories that have match your ensemble no matter how well they fit or how much pain you put yourself into (again, in front of somebody that genuinely loves you), doesn't make said person at least the tiniest bit shallow?

Find me a case that's actually demonstrably like this.

Phasmal:

Damien Granz:

No, but I've heard the whole "Men are pigs that want sex, women only want romance and personality" sort of thing a lot more.

I've heard that too. Usually its from dudes who think that women spend their time staring wistfully off into the distance thinking about the best father for their future babies. Not to say some women dont buy into that stereotype.

Generalisations suck and we should stop using them. But everybody does, its just human nature.

And have to say, I also mostly hear it from guys. It really confuses me when I occasionally see people put it in terms of men vs women, because quite frankly the people who say the stuff I find the most insulting personally are also guys.

tobyornottoby:

Jimbo1212:
Right, emotions should always be placed below logic. If you can not do that, then good luck in life as you will need all the luck you can get.
From my personal experience, those who let emotions dominate their decisions always screw up and never learn, because you can not learn from emotions. Those who use their head always end up making a good decision either first time round or soon after and end up happy. To put it simply:
Logic leads to emotional happiness
Emotions lead to misery and repeated failure.

Yes, geners are important, but why are you implying that decent guys are unfit and ugly? ^_-
The rough guys I know are short, stupid, and unhealthy (either too fat or thin). Some of the smart guys I know are in shape and good looking ergo, genetically superior.

Bf material V marriage material is stupid because surely marriage material >> bf material.
By calling someones bf material, you are implying that they are not as good as Marriage material, yet for some reason still choose bf material.
That makes no sense.

Life has ups and downs. It's quite possible emotional people experience heavier downs, but perhaps they have heavier ups as well to make up for it.

True, but all that means is that these people make bad decisions due to the volatile emotional state. That is a reason, but not a justification.

No I didn't say anything about ugliness, but more about personal upkeep. A lot of "Nice Guys" live by the creed that it's the inside that matters and thus do not take a whole lot of care of themselves (while meanwhile still being only interested in the pretty girls). Of course this is just a generalisation.

Here is the issue;
Many guys I know who call themselves "nice guys" are utter tramps and as you say, live on the moto of letting themselves go as they are a "nice guy".
But they are not "nice guys". They are immature and some what weak, and these are the type of people I am specifically not talking about.

When I say someone is a nice guy, I mean just that; a guy who is friendly, intelligent, average to good looking, fashionable, in shape etc - a nice guy.

How fat women have stolen the word "curvy" to now describe being fat, pussies have stolen the phrase "nice guy".

Different tools for different purposes. For example, I wear different shoes for when I go to work than when I go jogging. I can't really say that one is 'better' than the other as I have them for different goals. Bf material is chosen for a different purpose than marriage material, so you can't really compare them that way.

Ok, what is the difference in purpose? This is what I don't understand.
What I look for in a gf is someone who is attractive, ambitious, nice etc. This never changes. I don't change what I want or have different types.
So how does bf material differ from marriage material?

I would type a logical reply to this thread but I can't think at all as of this moment. Lets just say some of your points CAN be counter pointed. Like how we go to our friends and bitch. When I do this I bitch about how the girl doesn't like me. But I don't resent her I realize she is not attracted to me or maybe just doesn't like me. When you hear men bitch its probably not "OH HOW DARE SHE REJECT ME" Its "Damn I got rejected by that chick I really liked". I don't really think its our fault for being upset when we put our hopes out and they get crushed. You do know how bad it is to be rejected right? It feels pretty shitty when you get turned down by someone you like. I can't rant on about this anymore because my head is all messed up right now.

But don't always assume that all guys are like that. Its just like how we sometimes judge certain women who look like they put out much. But some guys don't do that often.

What I often see is nice guys getting rejected by the...I don't have a word for it. But popular would fit it. Look good, blah blah blah. I'm rambling on but yeah. Thats my point.

manic_depressive13:
"God! Can we stop talking about this?" Why yes. Yes we can. In fact, now would be a good time..

I love when people reply to topics with this. When I get bored of a Thread or think said topic should die, I ignore it.

OT: My favorite "Friend Zone" statement was "Where are all the nice guys? In the friend zone where you left them"

Because resentment and snide comments behind her back are what nice guys do lol.

Audacity:

manic_depressive13:
"God! Can we stop talking about this?" Why yes. Yes we can. In fact, now would be a good time..

I love when people reply to topics with this. When I get bored of a Thread or think said topic should die, I ignore it.

You say that because you have a hundred posts. When you've seen the exact same topic crop up every week for two years you're going to get mildly annoyed. Particularly when half the threads on the first page of the off-topic section are friend zone or female related, and this forum is misogynistic as hell. I'm tired of it. I might just leave, but naturally I am going to complain about it first.

Y'know, when the friend-zone meme started, it was kinda funny, because you could tell that it was just a bunch of douches who wanted to bang their hot female friend and were turned down, but then it started getting bad. It became a 'thing', and suddenly people are acting like rejection should be vilified, that a guy's female friends were obligated to give them a shot, even if she wasn't attracted to him, because he deserved it. Like the girl's opinion doesn't matter.

There's no such thing as the friend-zone. It's not a place you can be put, because, more often than not, it's the default position in a friendship. Being someone's friend for the sole purpose of trying to get them in a relationship is downright creepy. Be their friend because you want to be their friend, not because you want them to be your girlfriend. And if you do want to date her, guess what? Just because you want it, doesn't mean she's obligated to go out with you.

People need to quit being assholes about rejection. Yeah, it hurts. But if she means that much to you, you'll stop whining about the friend-zone and accept that she doesn't think of you in that way. And if it's the kind of thing you can't get over, stop clinging to her in the hopes that she'll change her mind. I feel for you, I really do, but all your doing is making both of your lives shit and souring good memories of your friendship.

Xangba:

Starik20X6:
I've been friend zoned before, due to the way my mind worked at the time. Thus, I've worked out more or less how to minimise friend zoning. Girls, feel free to correct any wild misconceptions I've grown:

As far as I can tell, it's not about "girls like douchebags", it's "girls like confidence". Problem is, the douchiest people tend to be the most confident ones, thus being perceived as more attractive. You can be a nice person and still be confident. It's about not being a wimp, about not taking crap from anybody without spewing crap yourself. Also, you need to have a life and be your own person before she comes along. Despite what rom coms might tell you, you shouldn't need anybody to 'complete' you.

You, sir, get a cookie. Again, people get "friend-zoned" for a few reasons
1.she does not find you physically attractive
2.You have no confidence (which is killer in ANYTHING life throws at you)
3.You don't act romantic at all. Kind of hard for him/her to consider you in such a way if you don't present yourself that way at some point.

You're right on the mark there. The only problem I can find with 3 is that it can be had to romance someone if they view you as a friend. Simple flirting between men and women who are friends is normal...atleast it is with my group of friends. It can be hard sometimes for people to see the difference between flirting and romancing.

Off topic: Thank you for being kind on the internet! *Thumbs up*
haha

tobyornottoby:

Women love to vent. They love to talk about their problems, not necessarily looking for advice but just a listening ear. They're looking for a tearbin, that's what they are to each other as well. You don't have to feel helpless as she doesn't want or need help. She just wants to relieve a bunch of emotions.

She likely repeats the mistake because it ultimately brings her more happiness than sadness.

Eventually I realized that she simply seeks someone to dump her emotions on
That's why status of "The Nice Guy" isn't worth it

Also this discussion reminds me of one part of Bedazzled

Yeah, totally not worth it :D

Allthingsspectacular:
This is small potatoes compared to the "Girls like jerks" myth.

Actually it is similarly odd conclusion on an unspoken truth, girls like exciting guys.
That is why the safe friendly guys get ignored, and exciting guys get options beyond that one single solitary girl they met years ago, so when they explore their options it quickly comes back as "he is such a jerk, why can't I just meet a nice guy"...
And the cycle of hilarity is complete :D

Adultism:

But don't always assume that all guys are like that. Its just like how we sometimes judge certain women who look like they put out much. But some guys don't do that often.

This is also a really shitty thing that guys do, btw.

Allthingsspectacular:
This is small potatoes compared to the "Girls like jerks" myth.

I'm pretty sure it's not just a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2008/06/the_dark_triad.html

There is evidence behind it.

manic_depressive13:

Audacity:

manic_depressive13:
"God! Can we stop talking about this?" Why yes. Yes we can. In fact, now would be a good time..

I love when people reply to topics with this. When I get bored of a Thread or think said topic should die, I ignore it.

You say that because you have a hundred posts. When you've seen the exact same topic crop up every week for two years you're going to get mildly annoyed. Particularly when half the threads on the first page of the off-topic section are friend zone or female related, and this forum is misogynistic as hell. I'm tired of it. I might just leave, but naturally I am going to complain about it first.

Lol. This is my forth account. I stopped using the others and have a total of 8000 posts.

cobra_ky:

Adultism:

But don't always assume that all guys are like that. Its just like how we sometimes judge certain women who look like they put out much. But some guys don't do that often.

This is also a really shitty thing that guys do, btw.

There are a lot of shitty things guys do, and there's an equal amount of shitty things girls do.

In fact, most of them are the same things.

There's a lot of shitty things people do.

blackrave:
Eventually I realized that she simply seeks someone to dump her emotions on
That's why status of "The Nice Guy" isn't worth it

If you're only doing it to pursue a relationship then yeah, no.

Jimbo1212:
True, but all that means is that these people make bad decisions due to the volatile emotional state. That is a reason, but not a justification.

Not necessarily bad decisions if one decision leads to both the higher ups and lower downs. It becomes a choice then, depending on your preferences which you're more inclined towards.

Jimbo1212:
Here is the issue;
Many guys I know who call themselves "nice guys" are utter tramps and as you say, live on the moto of letting themselves go as they are a "nice guy".
But they are not "nice guys". They are immature and some what weak, and these are the type of people I am specifically not talking about.

When I say someone is a nice guy, I mean just that; a guy who is friendly, intelligent, average to good looking, fashionable, in shape etc - a nice guy.

How fat women have stolen the word "curvy" to now describe being fat, pussies have stolen the phrase "nice guy".

Yeah that's true, one of the difficulties in this discussion is differentiating between nice guys and "Nice Guys".

Jimbo1212:
Ok, what is the difference in purpose? This is what I don't understand.
What I look for in a gf is someone who is attractive, ambitious, nice etc. This never changes. I don't change what I want or have different types.
So how does bf material differ from marriage material?

At it's core, it goes back to wanting someone who's strong and dominant to have kids with and someone who's reliable to settle down with.

I agree, if someone was just being friends with you to get close to you in hopes to get involved in a romantic relationship, whoever refuses the advances, isn't a bastard/asshole/bitch. However, saying, "I wish I could find a guy like you.", is pretty goddam misleading. Please try to communicate clearly your feelings, "I wish I could find a guy who has the specific traits I'm looking for." is quite clear on what your trying to state. Paying compliments and complaining about your love life are two things that should never be mojo'd up into the same sentence

You'll have to remind me why it isn't irritating to be in the friend zone. It sucks. I don't break communication but it still blows.

Hmm, its a very interesting discussion and I'd like to offer my two cents on the issues. Having been friendzoned before, I can sympathize and understand why it happens, but the reasons for the frustration of the dudes is simple.

We've always been told that "if you put effort in, you get dividends", which is why when a guy gets friendzoned after putting so much 'investment' in (doing her favours, talking on the phone, fb, etc) it can be really frustrating to feel like you've been wasting your time. The fact that some girls are masters of the mixed message doesn't help.

That's why I chase after three girls at a time these days (I'm a uni student), if I get friendzoned by one of them... not the end of the world. Backups! Besides, its not cheating if I'm not in a relationship, right?

Nice guys? Bet they don't get laid very much, but they probably have longer lasting relationships when they do.

Bobby Carless:

We've always been told that "if you put effort in, you get dividends", which is why when a guy gets friendzoned after putting so much 'investment' in (doing her favours, talking on the phone, fb, etc) it can be really frustrating to feel like you've been wasting your time. The fact that some girls are masters of the mixed message doesn't help.

Well that's a problem with their thinking. Pretending to be a friend when trying to get them in a relationship simply is something they shouldn't do. And I say pretending because if they're a real friend then it isn't an investment, it's a gift.

I've never been friend-zoned and I'm a nice guy... I don't really get the problem tbh. If you like a girl and she doesn't like you back, well to bad. You move on. This doesn't mean you have to stop being her friend... not at all.

However, "I'd like someone like you"????
Now, that does not make sense... at all... and comparing us to shoes?
What is it about the guy you like but don't like at the same time? Is he not ripped enough? Is he not smart enough?
Meh, I'm sure you have your reason. But you have to understand, saying this to someone who you know likes you must be VERY frustrating. It gives them hope that someday you'll come around even if you never do. It's basically dragging him along the ride with no possible happy ending for him...

Guys who complain about the friend-zone are pathetic. Girls who string guys along by saying things like, "I hope I find someone like you," are bitches.
That's the way I see it.

Isn't there a thread about this exact topic every week?

Ugh.

Grey Day for Elcia:
Isn't there a thread about this exact topic every week?

Ugh.

Yes there is and it will always end the same. That being the us.vs.them mentality. So they can hate someone and something without trying to fix the said problem. Complaining about the problem and not searching for a solution.

Ace Verret:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Isn't there a thread about this exact topic every week?

Ugh.

Yes there is and it will always end the same. That being the us.vs.them mentality. So they can hate someone and something without trying to fix the said problem. Complaining about the problem and not searching for a solution.

The worst part is the self described "nice guys" basically say this in every thread: "I was nice to her and she won't let me have sex with her. I wasted my time." You ever seen a supposed nice guy actually behave like a real friend? Lol.

Grey Day for Elcia:

Ace Verret:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Isn't there a thread about this exact topic every week?

Ugh.

Yes there is and it will always end the same. That being the us.vs.them mentality. So they can hate someone and something without trying to fix the said problem. Complaining about the problem and not searching for a solution.

The worst part is the self described "nice guys" basically say this in every thread: "I was nice to her and she won't let me have sex with her. I wasted my time." You ever seen a supposed nice guy actually behave like a real friend? Lol.

I say let them complain, let them whine, let them think they are in the right. Why because they will eventually be forced to learn. What they learn is up for interpretation. If they don't learn. Good, they will die alone.

I'm tired of this whole "Friendzone" thing. Guys are starting to sound like women - "That selfish bitch! How DARE she not like me? All women are bitches!" ...

Enough, you whiny douchebags! No one wants to listen to your problems! Be a man and move on with your life

I take my hat off to you, m'lady.

Ugh, this whole mess again. The way i dealt whith this once and for all was to just stop pursuing romantic relationships with other people. It's just not worth it for me. Now i just go on with my life, and try to live it as well as i can and just do my own things (work, hobbies, my own happiness, etc.) without bothering with getting a girlfriend. If one comes along, then it's even better, if not, then that's ok as well. I'm not going to go through the whole horror of trying to find a mate.
Seems like i am a bit late to the party though... Oh, well, no big deal, threads like these are a dime a dozen. :)

Well I understand that a girl can just not like you, but you still sort of selfishly wish you did and I think that is ok. It's not wrong to want things you can't have. It's also fair to like someone who is your friend. Just becoming friends in order for it to become a relationship is a shallow thing to do, but if you develop feelings for your friend, requited or otherwise, that's fine.

tobyornottoby:

blackrave:
Eventually I realized that she simply seeks someone to dump her emotions on
That's why status of "The Nice Guy" isn't worth it

If you're only doing it to pursue a relationship then yeah, no.

It's not worth it even if you pursue her happiness

Simeon Ivanov:
Guys are starting to sound like women

I see what you did there.

Only pretending to have been joking in 3...2...

tobyornottoby:
Not necessarily bad decisions if one decision leads to both the higher ups and lower downs. It becomes a choice then, depending on your preferences which you're more inclined towards.

Yeah that's true, one of the difficulties in this discussion is differentiating between nice guys and "Nice Guys".

At it's core, it goes back to wanting someone who's strong and dominant to have kids with and someone who's reliable to settle down with.

- 1st point.
So you are saying that the "bad" decisions would lead to a more volatile state of being very happy but also very sad at other times? Surely they would cancel each other out and going for a continuous state of happy would be best? Also, from experiences I have found that people are only very happy with these decisions when a large amount of denial comes into play eg. I am going to pretend my bf is Mr Right when he is simply a douche. Thus it is the illusion that makes the person very happy. If the person thinks that is fine, then why not go shoot up on meth all the time as that would make you "happy" and is about as real as that relationship?

- 3rd point.
Surely though it would be best to go for someone who is both strong, dominant, AND reliable? It seems like girls who think like that are simply settling or are impatient and just need someone thus make the best out of a bad selection of guys.

Matthew94:

Allthingsspectacular:
This is small potatoes compared to the "Girls like jerks" myth.

I'm pretty sure it's not just a myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2008/06/the_dark_triad.html

There is evidence behind it.

Except for the fact that this is a myth.

It's confidence that girls love. Which just so happens to overlap with jerks often.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked