Smoking in Public Places and The concept of Choice Theft

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I find it really interesting that these days all the politicians and the general public want to ban tobacco smoking, but at the same time are pushing for "gentler" marijuana laws.

Either way, I like it.

Rhodite:
Smokers while having a habit that does upset others are not second class citizens to be cast out onto the street is just plain silly.

What!?! Are you kidding? It is a smoking ban not a smoker ban. If I completely banned anyone who smokes from comming inside my establishment, that would be excessive. Not allowing people to choke others with their nasty habit, isn't. People can give up smoking. I know people who have, so you can get off your high horse and realise that my right to not smoke trumps your nasty addiction, which you should give up.

Sorry about that little rant.

perfectimo:

I have never met a smoker who would stand near a person and light a cigarette.

I've never met a smoker who wouldn't (before the smoking ban was intorduced here that is).

DC_Josh:
Some people smoke to relax and ease tension because they cannot do it any other feasible way.

I disagree with this. People smoke because they are addicted. Also, there must be more in their life than smoking, surely? Sex, for example. Or, I don't know.... ANY leisure-time activity in the world?

Nimbus:
What!?! Are you kidding? It is a smoking ban not a smoker ban. If I completely banned anyone who smokes from coming inside my establishment, that would be excessive. Not allowing people to choke others with their nasty habit, isn't. People can give up smoking. I know people who have, so you can get off your high horse and realise that my right to not smoke trumps your nasty addiction, which you should give up.

There is no "right" to not smoke. People seem to not know what their rights are and start making them up.

Nimbus:
I disagree with this. People smoke because they are addicted. Also, there must be more in their life than smoking, surely? Sex, for example. Or, I don't know.... ANY leisure-time activity in the world?

Maybe you can go for a shag in a twenty minute lunchbreak, but I don't have the time for that myself.

'Choice theft' can be used both ways. You're robbing us of our right to slowly kill ourselves/other people.

And I think everyones forgetting all the people who smoked, and changed society for the better.
People should be thanked for smoking :(!

I agree with Dr. Spaceman: let the market fix it. We should try offering smoking permits for these bars. That way, they have to think seriously about whether or not they want to allow smoking in their bar. This imposes less on the smokers, and increases the "freedom" we have over the issue. Smokers (and non-smokers who don't care) will end up at the smoking bars, while the non-smokers who don't like second hand smoke would end up at the other bars. This drives business to BOTH kinds of establishments and allows the city to manage how many smoking bars they have at any given time.

I've actually come up with a few analogies that well sum up a non smokers feelings towards smokers and why it shouldn't be allowed in pubs etc. I'll start with this...

Cigarette, Cigar, Pot etc. smoke fills the air in roughly a 5 foot radius around the smoker, when you have more than one smoker you effectively double or even triple it. It hangs in the air, and makes the entire place smell like tobacco. Further more when everybody is smoking the smell gets on my clothes, in my hair and makes me require use of my asthma inhaler. I did NOT choose to have asthma, it's a goddamn medical condition from birth without a cure and it's a pain in the ass, smokers choose to smoke.

But let me put it this way, say hypothetically that I like to spit, on people, as a way of relaxing, say I have a psychological need to spit on people. Should I be allowed to spit on you if your standing right next to me? Why not? It's the same as smoking, it gets on your clothes, requires you to wash them to get the stuff out, it's gross and it invades your personal space. What if bars allowed people like my hypothetical person, whom spit on whoever is standing next to them, what if you could not go into a bar without being spit on several times in the evening, that no matter where you stand or sit, you are going to get spit on. IMO that is what having smoking indoors feels like to a non smoker and why it shouldn't be allowed.

I challenge any smoker to explain to me how smoking is distinctly different than the above example. Since, for me, smoking is just as gross, it gets in my lungs, it pervades my senses, it makes me clothes unwearable for the rest of the evening/day, all that's missing is the gross wetness that would accompany spitting on people.

Cigarette, Cigar, Pot etc. smoke fills the air in roughly a 5 foot radius around the smoker, when you have more than one smoker you effectively double or even triple it. It hangs in the air, and makes the entire place smell like tobacco. Further more when everybody is smoking the smell gets on my clothes, in my hair and makes me require use of my asthma inhaler. I did NOT choose to have asthma, it's a goddamn medical condition from birth without a cure and it's a pain in the ass, smokers choose to smoke.

A place I used to go to had an extractor fan to prevent the smoke pervading the entire area. I am in favour of a general smoking ban for many places, but I still fail to see why we can't have our own seperate areas for smoking, when it's relatively easy to protect others from our smoke. Meh, I'll just continue to smoke outside for the forseeable future then. If I get pnuemonia, I'm totally blaming it on non smokers. :V

PedroSteckecilo:
I challenge any smoker to explain to me how smoking is distinctly different than the above example. Since, for me, smoking is just as gross, it gets in my lungs, it pervades my senses, it makes me clothes unwearable for the rest of the evening/day, all that's missing is the gross wetness that would accompany spitting on people.

I'll give it a crack.

Smoking doesn't require you to smoke near people whilst spitting on people require you to affect another human with your actions. There you go.

lets begin by saying i am a non-smoker but both my parents smoke and my father puts some hash on every smoke.
they did that near me for 12 years i didn't mind i was used to it.
then my parents made a deal to smoke outside and not in the house (my father still does so but he is an ass so that can be ignored).
now this may sound weird to you but i feel much more energetic most of the time my condition has become better and i sleep a lot better too.
i don't know but this practically gives me personal experience that YES second hand smoking is bad for you it may not kill you but thats still no reason to allow it.
its the same as this someone forces you to drink some dirty drink everyday that makes you feel sick all the time just because its a little more convenient for you
and to the person that said that pubs aren't necessary places to go no indeed it is not but i personally would like to have some fun every once in a while and smokers make it a lot less fun for me by the way smoking isn't necessary either

and to the person that said that pubs aren't necessary places to go no indeed it is not but i personally would like to have some fun every once in a while and smokers make it a lot less fun for me by the way smoking isn't necessary either

Non smokers make it less fun for me. You inconsiderate gits you. (This is irony)

All I'm asking for is a place I can go to smoke, maybe get a drink. Could have snooker tables and music too. They could call it a "pub" or something. Seriously though, why no pro-smoking areas for us? A specific licence for properties with supply controlled by the govt to prevent it happening everywhere. You don't like smoking? Then you don't go to a smoking pub. Simple...?

Wormthong:
its the same as this someone forces you to drink some dirty drink everyday that makes you feel sick all the time just because its a little more convenient for you

If you are so concerned about people making you breath in their smoke then how come you are online instead of harassing all those companies that give you power and gas?

perfectimo:

PedroSteckecilo:
I challenge any smoker to explain to me how smoking is distinctly different than the above example. Since, for me, smoking is just as gross, it gets in my lungs, it pervades my senses, it makes me clothes unwearable for the rest of the evening/day, all that's missing is the gross wetness that would accompany spitting on people.

I'll give it a crack.

Smoking doesn't require you to smoke near people whilst spitting on people require you to affect another human with your actions. There you go.

Yes but that doesn't address the "smoking indoors" whereby a smoker is willingly making my life more disgusting by not taking their habit outside. It does affect another human when smokers want all bars to be smoking establishments, that means I cannot go inside one without being "spit" upon.

PedroSteckecilo:

Yes but that doesn't address the "smoking indoors" whereby a smoker is willingly making my life more disgusting by not taking their habit outside. It does affect another human when smokers want all bars to be smoking establishments, that means I cannot go inside one without being "spit" upon.

I'd assume that you are aware that you too are making you life more disgusting and that you realise you too are to blame since you know what you are getting yourself into.

I think you'll find most, if not all, of the smokers have said they would like the dual option where there are smoking an non-smoking pubs/clubs.

perfectimo:

PedroSteckecilo:

Yes but that doesn't address the "smoking indoors" whereby a smoker is willingly making my life more disgusting by not taking their habit outside. It does affect another human when smokers want all bars to be smoking establishments, that means I cannot go inside one without being "spit" upon.

I'd assume that you are aware that you too are making you life more disgusting and that you realise you too are to blame since you know what you are getting yourself into.

I think you'll find most, if not all, of the smokers have said they would like the dual option where there are smoking an non-smoking pubs/clubs.

In that vein I agree, the crack-down on "smoking clubs" which has occured recently is moronic. They should be allowed since if everyone in the place is smoking, who cares, as an asthmatic and a non smoker I won't go inside.

PedroSteckecilo:
In that vein I agree, thewith the crack-down on "smoking clubs" which has occured recently is moronic. They should be allowed since if everyone in the place is smoking, who cares, as an asthmatic and a non smoker I won't go inside.

That was a good discussion we had. The one thing that sucks is this thread will be up and running tomorrow and only me, you and a few others will actually take into account what we have said.

Well I'm off to bed. Once again I liked that that was a proper conversation.

EDIT: Sentence structure and replaced some words with more relevant ones.

I just want to pop my head in here to say where I feel smoking is and isn't acceptable:

Acceptable:

1. On your own property.
2. In any business that explicitly states that it's allowed.
3. Out in the middle of nowhere where no-one's around.

Unacceptable:

1. In any public place where there are other people who haven't consented to it.
2. In any public building or around the entrances to such.
3. In any business that states that it's not allowed.

Second Hand Smoke's effects on your health aside, since I don't have citations for anything recent and can't be bothered to look, you're still inconveniencing people and affecting them negatively without their consent. It's why we do have limits on how loud you can play music and such, after all.

Truth is, regardless of what side of the line you're on, its a matter of respect. I have plenty of friends that smoke, who know that I don't, and they always ask if I care if they light up. Or, if I have my kids with me, they just go outside. Good people respect others.

This respect goes for public places as well but the respect has to be on both sides. For non-smokers, you have a choice where you go. Walk around the smokers. If you can't, you're also fully capable of holding your breath long enough to get through the cloud. For smokers, smoke away from the entrance. It's 10-15 feet further, probably wont kill you. If it is that difficult, might be time to give up smoking. :-)

Personally, I'm strongly against smoking. My grandpa died a long slow death fighting lung cancer. Horrible way to go and cruel to everyone involved. I think it is a ridiculous habit but it is a free country (to a degree) and we all have our addictions. We still gotta live together!

Respect, people. Respect.

cheers.
t.

Jaythulhu:
I'll stop smoking in public when others stop bringing their whinging screaming babies and adhd kids into public.

I'll support that.

perfectimo:
It's seems like a lot of people are blind to their own choices. One being that you can choice to not be near someone who smokes instead of having all those violent thoughts running through your head.

Don't take this personally, but any time I hear this from someone, I want to shove an entire tobacco plant up their ass and light it with thermite.

You cannot NOT be around smokers. You fucking smokers huddle around the entrances to places we must go, you light up in public walkways we must pass through, and congregate at bus stops non-smokers must wait at. Your habit has an effective range of about 3 meters in which anyone within that distance will be exposed to it, with the addition of a breeze extending it another ten or so meters in one direction. First, it's not often practical nor always possible to simply go around your smoke-stench asses. Second, why the FUCK should I HAVE to?

Here's something about rights... Your right to smoke, is not the same as a normal right. The government can declare it prohibited and that right is gone like Paris Hilton's virginity. But lets humor the idea of it being a right. Your right to do anything ends when it starts affecting other people in a negative fashion. Your right to smoke ends when you start exposing non-smokers to your second-hand smoke. So you are more than welcome to sit on the street puffing away on a cig, but if anyone approaches, by right you must then extinguish the cigarette until they pass. Do smokers do this? Do THEY move out of the way so they don't infringe on the non-smoker's right not to be poisoned? No. And the fact remains that a person's right not to be poisoned by your addiction is a right that takes priority over your right to smoke. So since smokers are inconsiderate and intolerable, we have to make laws to keep you from exposing us against our will, laws which cause you to bitch and moan like you have a case, but you don't. Nothing gives you the right to assault others with your vice.

Oh, and also worth mention, you smokers fucking REEK!
You can't smell it, how can you when your sinuses are already filled with that stench from smoking, but WE smell it. It's on your clothes, it's in your car, it's in your house. Your stench is worse than athletic BO or crotch-rot, and you seem so gods damned oblivious to it. You go outside for a puff, and come back in to work and we all gag on your overpowering miasma of bleh, but you just carry on as if nothing has changed. Even when you are not actually smoking, you smokers impact those around you with that habit. I don't want to serve a customer who smells like he shit his pants and never bathes any more than I want to smell your tobacco reek.

And potheads are even worse. Fucking stoners, we know you're a bunch of loser potheads by the smell alone, we don't need the glassy stare or Keanau Reeves "woah" idiocy to tip us off, our noses confirm it. Why a cop can't bust you for smelling like weed is beyond me, because it's dead simple to tell. You can bust an alcoholic by the smell of booze on their breath, why can't cops bust potheads from the stench of Mary Jane on their clothes?

Well I'm all ranted out... For now.
And remember folks, help control the stoner population. Have your potheads spayed or neutered.

minignu:

Nimbus:
I disagree with this. People smoke because they are addicted. Also, there must be more in their life than smoking, surely? Sex, for example. Or, I don't know.... ANY leisure-time activity in the world?

Maybe you can go for a shag in a twenty minute lunchbreak, but I don't have the time for that myself.

Google stress relief. That's several thousand links on why you don't need to smoke for stress relief.

Also, about smoking rooms, what about the people who work at the pub? Workers right should include "clean air", should they not? "Safe working environment" and all that?

perfectimo:

No because a solution is a fix to a problem.

That makes no sense in this context, your solution is created by the stat...fuck it. You're right.

Mariena:

Rawr... uhm. What? O.o

You said you was a tiger. But it turns out you are, in fact, a perplexed.

PedroSteckecilo:
The thing is smoking is a LEISURE ACTIVITY NOT A LIFESTYLE CHOICE! I can move away and in an outdoor area that is possible, but when I'm indoors I can't escape the stuff. It's something that directly effects the health of some people with lung problems such as myself.

Not just lung problems, I have a severe alergy to tobaco. If I am exposed to cigarete smoke I will get a vomit inducing migrane (takes a little bit of exposure to get that bad, but even little amounts will affect me). Not that many people are as sensitive as I am, but many people have a tobaco alergy, it is quite common. So I say smoke all you want outside, I can move away from you. But if you are smoking in an entrance way, I have to smell you fucking smoke when I go in and it will have a negative effect on me. And there should be no smoking indoors, ever.

JinxyKatte:
I have somehow managed to apparently give the best argument and the stupidest statement in the same reply. Hell yeah

I bet you hear, "talking to you is like talking to a brick wall", a lot. So, I won't make you hear that again. For now.

you go down a slippery slope when you claim that people shouldn't be able to smoke indoors because it steals your choice not to smoke. it just become a circular discussion that gets you nowhere because by taking his ability to smoke indoors you are robing his rights. however i will tell you from experience that laws like that aren't enforced anyway(i have one in my home state and it doesn't stop the smokers at my school).

Stop stealing all my oxygen when you have an asthma attack!

Hehe, only joking dude. As a smoker I appreciate the fact that you understand TO smoke is also a choice. Many non-smokers forget this and (pardon my french) instantly affix the word "C*nt" to anyone with a 'dirty death-stick' in their hand/mouth. My reasoning for this word is because it's the apparently the worst, just like us smokers.

Personally, I'd be happy with just a smoking room\area in a pub or cafe. I'm not overly bothered about being able to smoke everywhere in a pub and I can understand that some people don't want someone smoking near them whilst they're trying to eat in a restaurant. I'd be happy finishing my meal and stepping into a room with a big ass round table with a huge ashtray in the middle (like some airports had) so I didn't have to bother anyone else.

Take it easy.

EDIT: Hid my naughty word as I thought someone would get their trendy c-bomb panties in a twist. (even though I originally hid it in spoiler but felt like it framed it instead)

I smoke a lot. I f@#king love it.

But honestly? Fuck the smokers, the argument "your robing my right to smoke" is stupid. I'd like to believe it, but who the heck are we kidding?

titaniumwombat made a good point: It's about respect. If I think I'm bothering somebody with my smoking I ask if he/she/it is okay with it. The non-smokers can be more considerate, same with the smokers.

To be more exact:
Restaurants: No
Bars/Clubs etc.: The owner decides
Public places (Parks etc...): Yes

Woa, looks like a 50/50 spread there...

perfectimo:

corroded:
What smokers don't understand is outside, smoke still goes everywhere and most have no qualms about lighting up right next to you.

I have never met a smoker who would stand near a person and light a cigarette.

Even sitting outside, smoke wafts around. Opposite tables whatever. And for some reason smokers don't seem to care regardless of when i got there. In the UK now, if you're outside it's the smokers right to smoke wherever they like and they don't care.

Good morning blues:
I really don't see why smoking rooms and designated smoking areas aren't a reasonable solution for everyone.

i agree compleetly

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