Sweden is apparently a war zone now

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Catnip1024:
Now, I've said my piece on the actual topic - I don't believe that there is a massive issue, and I don't particularly like the bandwagonning by either side - but I do take issue with this statement.

Police are not necessarily trustworthy just because. Look at Hillsborough, look at Orgreave, look at Cologne. Look at the incredibly low number of racially motivated murders and anti-LGBT crimes in the US according to the published official data.

Likewise, charities often have influencing factors making them likely to inflate or deflate statistics within the realm of fudging to aid their cause.

All statistics must be taken with a pinch of salt, regardless of source.

Yes, obviously we should read reports with scepticism, and scepticism should be applied regardless of source. I have my issues with the sources in question, as well.

Is this actually at issue with what I said? They remain probably the best sources of information we have, albeit flawed. Cross-reference, apply source criticism, and try to mitigate those flaws. You'll end up with a basis a thousand times more credible than ranting Youtube personalities.

Vanilla ISIS:

NemotheElvenPanda:
Again, this has always been a problem in Stockholm.

According to the stats, the numbers for rape, for example, have tripled since 2015.
that's not normal.

Except no they haven't, unless you've got a different source to share with the class. I mean, not even the tabloid you yourself used as a source in your OP says it fucking tripled:

Vanilla ISIS:
"In a country of 10m people, more than 320 shootings and dozens of bombings were reported in 2017, along with more than 110 murders and 7,226 rapes ? a 10% increase on 2016. More than 36% of young Swedish women say they feel unsafe at night."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/teens-roam-streets-with-rifles-as-crime-swamps-sweden-q83g055k9

Get a hold of yourself.

Vanilla ISIS:

Again, not saying that refugees are the cause, just seeing a pattern here.

Wildly exaggerated claims being pinned on migrants?

Because I'm seeing a lot of that, too.

Vanilla ISIS:
"In a country of 10m people, more than 320 shootings and dozens of bombings were reported in 2017, along with more than 110 murders and 7,226 rapes ? a 10% increase on 2016. More than 36% of young Swedish women say they feel unsafe at night."

...

Any thoughts?

Given the respective populations, this means Sweden has a serious crime rate roughly equivalent to the UK, which is itself significantly safer than the USA. To put this in perspective and all.

On the other hand, you won't find people walking down the street with assault rifles in the UK, although gun accessibility in the UK is particularly low compared to Sweden and the US.

Agema:

On the other hand, you won't find people walking down the street with assault rifles in the UK, although gun accessibility in the UK is particularly low compared to Sweden and the US.

You won't find that on your average day in Sweden either. These criminal organizations have access to assault rifles no doubt and they are used regularly in fire fights, but it is not something they brandish openly, as carrying a weapon in public is illegal, particularly an assault rifle which a civilian isn't allowed to own under any circumstances.

One has to remember that Sweden has a high amount of firearms per capita because hunting is a national pastime in Sweden (owing to the 70% or so of Sweden that's covered by woodland) and that the overwhelming majority of those legal weapons are bolt-action hunting rifles and break action shotguns. The restriction on what kind of rifle is allowed for hunting are also pretty harsh, semi-automatic rifles are allowed if you can show special circumstances that require it (such as boar hunting where second shot capability is important) and even then not with a magazine of more than 5 rounds, for example.
Handgun licenses are only given out to active members of pistol shooting clubs and comes with yearly proficiency requirements, and those clubs keep meticulous records of active members and their qualification shootings.

On top of that there are restrictive laws on how you're allowed to keep your firearms (floor/wall bolted safes) and there are many laws that allows for the revocation of a firearms license (mental illness, some physical illness, any kind of crime record etc.).

As such the average Swede's weapon locker might be about as well-stocked as an American's house, but the firepower disparity is significant. Where the American can easily get handguns and semi-automatic weapons with large magazines, the Swede is restricted to hunting rifles in most cases. That's not to say that a .300 hunting rifle can't cause serious damage, but the Swedish problem is with illegally obtained weapons in the hands of criminals, not that civilians can easily get their hands on near military-grade firepower without any real legal obstruction.

There's a thing that seems odd to me..

Sweden is a country with high GDP per capita but low income inequality. It has a very robust social welfare system which helps to prevent people falling into the kind of destitute poverty we find in the United States (even though the median income in the US is higher, income inequality is much, much, much higher).

In terms of international perception, this seems to translate into the idea that Sweden is an almost Utopian country with no social problems, where everyone is happy and rich, where crime is non-existent. This despite the fact that one of the country's significant cultural exports (for other Europeans anyway, I'm not sure it crosses the Altantic) is gritty crime dramas.

And you'd think conservatives, US conservatives in particular, would be fiercely fighting against this perception of Sweden. You'd think US conservatives would be the ones pointing out the reality that Sweden's social welfare system doesn't always work, that there is still poverty and, despite the claims of the Swedish government, still extreme poverty. That there is still and crime and all of the other things which happen in all countries around the world, because if it genuinely was the case that Sweden is some kind of post-crime, post-poverty super society despite technically being less prosperous than some countries with serious gang and violent crime problems, that kind of makes them look a bit bad for opposing the very measures which seem to prevent these things. If Sweden really was some kind of problemless utopia, then other countries should logically be emulating the Swedish model.

But no, American Conservatives apparently love the idea of utopian super-society Sweden, to the point of embracing it to frankly absurd and ludicrous degrees by claiming things like that Sweden has literally no crime (at least before the dreaded immigrants arrived). But instead of pointing to the actual reasons that perception came about: the existence of a robust welfare system, a rehabilitation focused justice system, a generally more collectivist cultural mentality which views helping others as a good thing and a tendency towards social democracy and social liberalism over neoliberalism and market-worship, conservatives (and again, American conservatives in particular) attribute it to Swedes as people just being different, just being naturally less prone to criminality, just being naturally good people and thus all the social problems that actually exist in Sweden are not failures or breakdowns in this robust, highly interconnected social support network (which again, is the kind of thing conservatives seem to hate) but signs of infiltration by people who are not Swedes, who are just bad people.

Honestly, it's a pretty excellent demonstration of the deep hypocrisy inherent in right wing positions and the way casual racism is used to "plug the gaps" in leaky political theory.

Vanilla ISIS:

NemotheElvenPanda:
Again, this has always been a problem in Stockholm.

According to the stats, the numbers for rape, for example, have tripled since 2015.
that's not normal.

Except no, that's not true at all. The data provided in this thread including that you posted says otherwise.

Vanilla ISIS:

While you probably don't blame this on Islam or immigration, lots of people however do. It's good, genuinely, that you show more concern about the crimes than the people who might be behind them, but that's the minority voice in all of this.

When most of the perpetrators of violent crimes turn out to be immigrants that came with the recent refugee wave, you can't pretend like immigration has nothing to do with it.

Got some data to show this, or are we just supposed to take your word like for your very obviously wrong point above?

Vanilla ISIS:

I agree completely, but the people who are the most vocal about this don't actually care about the crimes but whom they can pin the crimes on.

Without finding or at least be willing to look for the perpetrators, you can't say that you care. If the police just "cared about the crimes" but didn't arrest the criminals, what good would they be?

People who don't live within 1000 miles of Sweden complaining on the internet about them brown immigrants aren't trying to find or look for the perpetrators either. They're using crimes to further an already existing agenda. You're making such a ridiculously disingenuous argument here that it's honestly mind-boggling.

Vanilla ISIS:

You do when you think that murder, rape, and assault is suddenly the fault of an immigrant population.

Well... what if it is their fault, like in the article that I've posted in the OP? What do we do then? Face reality or pretend that it was somebody else?

Do you have any hard data that proves this to be consistently the case? As I've mentioned a couple times in this thread including a direct response to your OP, your article is paywalled, and other statistical reports either disprove you or don't say one way or another.

Vanilla ISIS:

Barring if this is something that actually happened, this is something of a regular issue in Mexico and the USA regularly has school shootings now, plus that whole fiasco with the militia overtaking a nature preserve to spite the government in a stand-still with police.

Why do you compare Mexico with Sweden? The cartels literally tell the Mexican president what to do. That country isn't a good comparison.
Also, nobody should take the death numbers from the US as average because they're enormous.

Sweden still has a much, much, much lower murder rate than the entire European continent.

Not counting areas like San Marino as countries, the lowest murder rate in Europe actually belongs to Austria, who's interestingly refusing to take refugees now, followed by Norway which practices very strict border checks for refugees.
Again, not saying that refugees are the cause, just seeing a pattern here.

Except you're not seeing an existing pattern; you're inventing one by picking and choosing data points to your liking.

Sweden's murder rate is lower than the EU average, while Sweden has taken in more immigrants per capita than the EU average and has less strict border practices than EU average. Let's also not forget that Sweden's crime reporting system leads to it's crime rates to seem much larger than other countries[1]. Funny how your "pattern" has already fallen apart. It's almost like it was not fact-based (or at least not non-alternative fact-based).

Vanilla ISIS:

According to the stats, the numbers for rape, for example, have tripled since 2015.
that's not normal.

As other people have stated multiple, numerous times, Sweden has a broader definition of rape and a more proactive security force that handles those cases. Immigration to Sweden has been around long before 2015.

When most of the perpetrators of violent crimes turn out to be immigrants that came with the recent refugee wave, you can't pretend like immigration has nothing to do with it.

And your true colors are revealed. Again, people have shown that not only are the crime rates still low compared to the majority of the developed world, they're not all done by immigrants either.

Without finding or at least be willing to look for the perpetrators, you can't say that you care. If the police just "cared about the crimes" but didn't arrest the criminals, what good would they be?

Because scapegoating and blaming crimes on a demographic doesn't actually help prevent crime. You act as if rape and murder and so on never happened in Sweden before.

Well... what if it is their fault, like in the article that I've posted in the OP? What do we do then? Face reality or pretend that it was somebody else?

People have shown that the article is selective about what it reports on and blows the situation out of proportion. Any European can tell you that this is and has been a problem before.

Why do you compare Mexico with Sweden?

Because your lot makes it sound like Sweden is turning into Mexico, and even Mexico's crime and gang violence is at times blown out of proportion by the same people.

Not counting areas like San Marino as countries, the lowest murder rate in Europe actually belongs to Austria, who's interestingly refusing to take refugees now, followed by Norway which practices very strict border checks for refugees.
Again, not saying that refugees are the cause, just seeing a pattern here.

"I'm not saying that I blame refugees, but I'm blaming refugees."

Austria, as well as many other German states, have had a relatively long period of Turkish and Caucasian immigration. Norway has had the same with Balkan, Slavic, and Near Eastern immigration. Ten years ago, people were suddenly complaining about it and how they're threatening the native way of life, bringing crime, etc. Now, they're entirely being ignored for the refugees.

Immigration to Europe is not new. Violent crime in Europe is not new. Only your like is trying to somehow conflate the two.

Zontar:

NemotheElvenPanda:

No-go zones, as in areas that tend to be neglected by police and have high rates of crime exist.
No-go zones, as in areas that are run by immams and Sharia law, do not exist.

Neither of these is what anyone outside of the far left echo chamber refer to when talking about the no-go zones.

I'm a fairly far left History student at an American research University. I read dozens upon dozens of general and case studies, some on topics from 200 years ago, some 100 years, and some 10 years ago. I read articles from Fox, CNN, PBS, and even occasionally Breitbart, and hold an overwhelming majority of news as contemptible oversimplifications of world affairs, and as such attempt to verify current events with as many news sources as possible. I don't have a very high opinion of immigration skeptics, as in retrospect arguments tend to fold under fairly light levels of scrutiny. Please, offer me something will liberate from this awful echo chamber.

Vendor-Lazarus:

The fact of the matter is twofold. Swedens soft and liberal policy on cultural relativism and Islams incompatibility with western ideals.

This argument is a completely nonsensical generalization. A majority of Muslim countries feature heavily westernized economies, and stating Islam as the most prominent catalyst for tension is an egregiously reductive argument that dismisses any factors of international (or even domestic) relations, income inequality, and even basic human psychology.

Vanilla ISIS:

CaitSeith:
Mexico called. He said "cry me a freaking river".

One of the safest and wealthiest countries in the world has become the equivalent of Mexico in a span of 5 years.
Nothing unusual there, right?

Samtemdo8:

CaitSeith:

Samtemdo8:
^ Just so you know, at least my youtube search is as impartial as it can possibly be by just typing "Sweden Crisis" and I still get all these results.

And I have seen most of these videos in the search before hand. But knowing this community, linking a video and expecting you guys to watch it and criticize it properly is an impossibility :p

And did you double-checked the facts and sources that each result presented? Because not verifying if their sources aren't alarmist lies, doesn't make you impartial.

No, which is why I want you guys to watch it and criticize it so I can have an alternate opinion.

With all due respect, I think you are asking the wrong people. No one here is going to do your homework. And not even bothering to post specific videos isn't only lazy, it's misleading (Youtube returns different search results for different locations).

Vanilla ISIS:

Pseudonym:
The murder rate is higher than that of neigbor countries Norway and Denmark but lower than that of neighbor country Finland.

The last bombing in Finland was in 2002.
In Sweden, there were 16 grenade attacks in 2017 alone (not counting bombs).
There was already one grenade explosion this year on the 7th of January in a subway station (nobody detonated it, it was just a dud left there by someone... a grenade just left in a subway station, everything is fine).

Do feel free to explain how this has the slightest relevance to what I said, or just to anything in general. Because it seems to me like a complete red herring.

Or are you insinuating that dying by bullet, bomb or baseballbat are significantly different? That you only really care about those murder victims who were attacked with explosives and that the rest should just suck it up? Because the exact means of being murdered doesn't seem like the big moral problem with murder to me.

Samtemdo8:
No, which is why I want you guys to watch it and criticize it so I can have an alternate opinion.

If you are sincere about wanting an alternate opinion, and you are already watching quite a bit of youtube vids, you might as well seek out some of the more leftwing youtubers out there. Shaun has some video's relating to statistics and immigration. While it doesn't relate directly to this subject a lot of these discussions go in recognisable patterns. The guy also comes across to me as relatively polite and calm which might be easier to deal with if you aren't inclined to agree with him beforehand. See for example the following two vids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_YEe7jLVc&t=200s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PuXoOvDYPE

Pseudonym:

Vanilla ISIS:

Pseudonym:
The murder rate is higher than that of neigbor countries Norway and Denmark but lower than that of neighbor country Finland.

The last bombing in Finland was in 2002.
In Sweden, there were 16 grenade attacks in 2017 alone (not counting bombs).
There was already one grenade explosion this year on the 7th of January in a subway station (nobody detonated it, it was just a dud left there by someone... a grenade just left in a subway station, everything is fine).

Do feel free to explain how this has the slightest relevance to what I said, or just to anything in general. Because it seems to me like a complete red herring.

Or are you insinuating that dying by bullet, bomb or baseballbat are significantly different? That you only really care about those murder victims who were attacked with explosives and that the rest should just suck it up? Because the exact means of being murdered doesn't seem like the big moral problem with murder to me.

It's an attempt to narrow the definition of certain types of attacks so tightly and exactly that it encompasses only those events that one wants to include. Another example is how the definition for "terrorist attack" is sometimes tailored to the effect that only terror attack perpetrated by Islamic suspects count; it allows people to control the narrative and makes claims such as "all/the majority of terror attacks are committed in the name of Islam" while being technically correct (if you use their definition).

erttheking:

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

altnameJag:
Phh, amateurs.

I mean seriously, if Sweden were a state, it'd be one of the safest states in the United States.

And somehow that's a "war zone"?

Silly liberals, always assuming Europeans use the USA as a yardstick for anything.

When violent crime explosively grows in small, concentrated cities in a country which is usually relatively peaceful we don't typically look at the US and say "Thats ok, just look over there, their country is irreversibly fucked and unsafe too so we have nothing to worry about!".

I think you were missing the point. Every single state in the USA is more violent than Sweden. Sweden is apparently a war zone now.

Does that make the United States a warzone?

The point wasn't "oh the United States is worse, there's no problem." The point was "you're being hyperbolic."

Uh, yeah. On a second glance you're totally right. Disregard!

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