Dark Souls messages are sexist now

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Emergent gameplay as I like to call it. "Amazing chest ahead" is a good joke but maybe not a good start. Then again, what doesn't get overused and become stale? Games are toys and toys are immature. Fits right in there.

Yeah, this is twatty kids being twats. Annoying, rude and tiresome certainly but not what I'd describe as hateful. Just stupid.

Xprimentyl:

Saelune:

ObsidianJones:
Isn't this just a new form of innuendo?

Like a bunch of guys talking about how they were so happy their waitress has such ripe tomatoes... and they weren't talking about their side salad.

On one hand, it's sad. On the other hand, we've all done it. But at the end of the day, it isn't Malicious.

The maliciousness is how we so easily view it as nothing to get upset over. We accept too much sexism and bigotry just because it is not as blatant as yelling the N word at black people, but yes, this constant immature sexualization of things IS infact sexist and not really a good thing.

Most of us bothered by this stuff are so expected to deal with it, that we just nod our heads meekly while being bothered by it. If we speak up, suddenly we're SJW snowflakes who need a thicker skin.

Not debating your feelings on the issue; I?m certainly all for putting respect for others ahead of any need or ?right? to entertain oneself at others? expense of dignity, but certainly there are degrees of severity? I mean, given the outright vitriol and unmasked hatred and disrespect that is fairly commonplace in online interactions (let?s call those 10s on a scale of 1 to 10,) doesn?t crafty-if-immature wordsmithed innuendo fall somewhere around the 1 to 2 range? Did it merit an article like the one in the OP? I.e.: how much elephant shit did he have to dig through to find this rabbit pellet?

Not saying this is innocent fun and anyone should ?get over it,? but some things merit a stern folding of the arms with a ?harrumph? of disapproval and other?s merit an eyeroll; this, I feel is a case of the latter. And how he comes to the conclusion that this is ?a territorial, gendered assertion of power? is beyond me. If anything the intended audience is other equally immature players who?ll see it and giggle as much as they did writing it; I think giving that kind of person any credit to think they?ve masterminded a plot to ensure any ?girl? playing his game knows her place is giving that person TOO much credit.

I guess I should stop overreacting and quit making thread after thread criticizing people making sexist comments on Dark Souls then...

I know there are different levels of problems. I certainly think this is less of an issue than say, immigration reform, but that doesn't mean that we cant improve both.

But acknowledging it as a problem I think is a good start instead of just ignoring it.

I don't think it is intentional sexism, but isn't that kind of worse? Even I am guilty of being so used to certain ways of thinking that I need to work hard to reconsider them, but I do try, and I think we should encourage others to try to reconsider even their small actions too.

People hate complainers, but few things ever change without someone complaining about it first.

Commanderfantasy:

Saelune:
The maliciousness is how we so easily view it as nothing to get upset over. We accept too much sexism and bigotry just because it is not as blatant as yelling the N word at black people, but yes, this constant immature sexualization of things IS infact sexist and not really a good thing.

Most of us bothered by this stuff are so expected to deal with it, that we just nod our heads meekly while being bothered by it. If we speak up, suddenly we're SJW snowflakes who need a thicker skin.

I mean yes, you kind do need a thicker skin. Honestly. Remember the phrase "sticks and bones break my bones but words will never hurt me"? While it is true that words can hurt, this is not one of those situations. These are cheap grade school jokes on the ground about as harmful as typing 80085 into your calculator for giggles.

This isn't sexist. There is nothing about these phrases that is anti-woman or man in any way. It's that mentality that wants to stretch and twist words into meaning something that they do NOT mean. And frankly if you have this view of everything that you see, I can do nothing but feel sorry for you because it simply must be absolutely impossible for you to enjoy anything as you must always be looking for a way to be offended or hurt by it. How do you watch films, television, read books, comics, video games, anything where there could possibly be a joke at a woman's expense.

Joke's at someone's expense does not make the joke sexist, racist, or phobic. Because they are jokes. Context and intent DOES matter. You can be offended by a harmless stupid joke all you want, but that doesn't make you right.

I have a way thicker skin than you know. And that skin keeps a lot of pain and self-hate inside that makes me think about killing myself almost daily. I went to High School when 'that's gay' was EVERYWHERE, and it didn't exactly make me feel like people were on my side. It made me feel like I have to hide who I am, cause I am something bad, and that is what shit like this does to people who are the butt of these 'jokes'.

I think the people so offended by their jokes not being funny and just being mean need 'thicker skins'.

I am not even saying I am above all this. I have made jokes at people's expense too, not because I wanted to hurt their feelings, but on reflection, I feel that I have done exactly that and that is shitty of me. I think about how I would feel if those jokes were at me, and I don't think I would have enjoyed them, so I try not to anymore. And if I did that now, and someone got upset at me, well, I would apologize! If my real intention is to make people laugh and feel joy, why wouldn't I apologize for failing in that regard? Why is it so difficult for people to just empathize and apologize?

'Its just a joke' is bully logic.

Saelune:
The maliciousness is how we so easily view it as nothing to get upset over. We accept too much sexism and bigotry just because it is not as blatant as yelling the N word at black people, but yes, this constant immature sexualization of things IS infact sexist and not really a good thing.

Most of us bothered by this stuff are so expected to deal with it, that we just nod our heads meekly while being bothered by it. If we speak up, suddenly we're SJW snowflakes who need a thicker skin.

I don't consider myself an attractive man, but I had some 'admirers' back in the day. Especially when I was a bodybuilder.

People weren't... subtle with the things they said. A co-worker said my ass was 'juicy as a papaya'. I've been called a 'tall glass of chocolate milk' (I'm caramel...). I had my ass grabbed more times than I can count and I was told by my friends that I should just take it as a compliment.

My feminist friends. And I've heard them talk about guys and girls they found attractive in coded, suggestive language.

I already said it's sad. It's juvenile. But people do it all the time without malicious intent. Does it make it a guilt free experience? No. But the programmers never intended it for it. I'm sure Notch never intended people to create nude statues in minecraft, but it's a community.

That's what I meant about it not being malicious. The designer's reason for the messages were to convey actual things. Not to hide porn jokes. But that doesn't stop childish humor. It will always find a way.

The article doesn't claim it's a huge problem. If anything it;s just the author writing an article about an observation on a game series he likes for a page about games. That people could be upset about an article like this boggles my mind.

The author got paid to write this, so all the people calling them oversensitive should rethink that, after all they are using their own free time to whine about an article about an observation made of a certain game series.

Kotaku is a fucking blog, and this is a blog post. The author made an observation and voiced their thoughts on it. It's not a call to action, not an attack on juvenile humor, they are neither dying on this hill nor declaring an end to free speech, shit, the article doesn't even implicate anyone as being at fault. I was actually somewhat down after reading the article, but then the comments just proved that "yeah" this is jut another sign of how shitty the culture has gotten. Even the smallest things are fucking awful for no reason.

I always found those messages just to be obnoxious, low hanging fruit that utterly failed to compete with the glory that was "don't give up skeleton". I don't think there's malice behind them, but I do think it's another example of how stupid people can be when they've been granted anonymity. It's a smaller part of a much bigger problem.

Nedoras:
I always found those messages just to be obnoxious, low hanging fruit that utterly failed to compete with the glory that was "don't give up skeleton". I don't think there's malice behind them, but I do think it's another example of how stupid people can be when they've been granted anonymity. It's a smaller part of a much bigger problem.

Oh my god yes. Thank you, I was just thinking that but didn't want to edit my comment. It's a symptom. Fixing it won't solve any problem, but lord knows, there is enough room on the internet for someone to discuss it if they care to.

Sexism doesn't have to be "hateful" to be recognisable as sexism.

When a set of fairly mild jokes, which in the right context could perhaps be cute and funny, becomes incredibly popular, endlessly repeated and consistently rewarded, then it becomes something a little more than just random jokes, and when you are the target of those jokes and you step into an environment in which those jokes are everywhere, it doesn't take very long to come to the conclusion that this isn't a space for you, or this isn't a community for you.

Some people, myself included, will push through that because they get something which is worth it, or because they feel they don't have a choice. I know a lot of women and queer people who are into video games or CCGs or even roleplaying games who did push through because something else about those hobbies spoke to them, but there's an emotional toll. I don't get to talk about gaming, which is a big part of my life, to a lot of my friends, certainly not in a positive or celebratory way. I don't talk about it because I'm embarrassed, because I don't want them to walk into some geek culture space, confront all this bullshit directed against them and then think less of me for having that be part of my life.

The problem is not that the men who write sexist comments in dark souls hate women. The problem is that they are indifferent to how these comments will make women feel in a way they are not indifferent to each other. Indeed, they're leaving the messages for each other's enjoyment and as a social activity, and it works, as mentioned these messages tend to be incredibly popular and widely shared, to the point where it's quite possible people are repeating them simply to get the little sense of gratification (and small boost to health) when people rate a comment. But I think it says something about this community (and this culture more broadly) that one of the easiest ways for men to get approval from each other is to publicly belittle women.

Nedoras:
I always found those messages just to be obnoxious, low hanging fruit that utterly failed to compete with the glory that was "don't give up skeleton".

Skeletons are just the gift that keeps on giving.

Kotaku getting up in arms over nothing? Shock and surprise.

Silentpony:
People have never understood the difference between sexist and sexual.

Miley Cyrus is a person. That is not sexist or sexual.
Miley Cyrus has tits. That is sexual, not sexist.
I would like to touch Miley Cyrus's tits. Again sexual, not sexist.
Miley Cyrus shouldn't be allowed to drive. Not sexual or sexist.
Miley Cyrus shouldn't be allowed to drive because she is a woman. Not sexual but definitely sexist.

Messages saying 'woman ahead try thrust' are juvenile, yes, and maybe borderline sexual(don't think pelvic thrust is a pose in dark souls...) but sexist? In what way? Where is the statement denigrating women for the crime of being a woman.

This is the correct response.

ObsidianJones:

Saelune:
The maliciousness is how we so easily view it as nothing to get upset over. We accept too much sexism and bigotry just because it is not as blatant as yelling the N word at black people, but yes, this constant immature sexualization of things IS infact sexist and not really a good thing.

Most of us bothered by this stuff are so expected to deal with it, that we just nod our heads meekly while being bothered by it. If we speak up, suddenly we're SJW snowflakes who need a thicker skin.

I don't consider myself an attractive man, but I had some 'admirers' back in the day. Especially when I was a bodybuilder.

People weren't... subtle with the things they said. A co-worker said my ass was 'juicy as a papaya'. I've been called a 'tall glass of chocolate milk' (I'm caramel...). I had my ass grabbed more times than I can count and I was told by my friends that I should just take it as a compliment.

My feminist friends. And I've heard them talk about guys and girls they found attractive in coded, suggestive language.

I already said it's sad. It's juvenile. But people do it all the time without malicious intent. Does it make it a guilt free experience? No. But the programmers never intended it for it. I'm sure Notch never intended people to create nude statues in minecraft, but it's a community.

That's what I meant about it not being malicious. The designer's reason for the messages were to convey actual things. Not to hide porn jokes. But that doesn't stop childish humor. It will always find a way.

And in my initial post, I explicitly said I do not blame Dark Souls. My issue is the people who are saying there is nothing wrong with what the people leaving these messages, cause there is.

I think not just shrugging and going 'That's just how it is' and actually making it known that we look down on this behavior is what we should do. We should downvote these comments, not upvote them, and just as a society of people acknowledge that this is shitty behavior, instead of validating it by saying it is fine or that people are overreacting, cause people aren't overreacting, it just seems that way to everyone who is underreacting.

Commanderfantasy:
Joke's at someone's expense does not make the joke sexist, racist, or phobic. Because they are jokes. Context and intent DOES matter. You can be offended by a harmless stupid joke all you want, but that doesn't make you right.

Choosing not to care about sexism doesn't make you right either.

We live in a sexist society. Unless Dark Souls has some magic way of screening out sexist players, a lot of the people playing are going to be notably sexist. Now, how many and how bad is up for debate, but to say that there is no sexism at all is absurd, and rather telling.

SckizoBoy:

erttheking:
Also, throughout history, war has been something we encourage people to take part in. In fact, overwhelmingly so. The idea of war being hell only popped up in the popular consciousness around the First World War, and even then it's been hotly contested by the chest thumping militarist crowd.

And there's a difference for wanting someone to fight in a war and thinking that someone is capable of fighting should the need arise.

I'm not here to debate your point ('cos I agree), but just to make a correction: it was actually the American Civil War that brought about the war is hell trope, and not least because Sherman said so verbatim. It was the first widely photographed war and since photo-journalists (such as they were) weren't regulated or prevented from witnessing the aftermaths of what were then the largest battles participated in by American soldiers (in numbers, ordnance and casualties), they took a lot of grizzly photos. And then ultimately had the means to widely circulate said photos.

To add to this, photo-journalists of the civil war era were not above intentionally messing with bodies to make their photos look even more gruesome than the already gruesome reality.

There's a very famous civil war photo (which I will not be linking here because it's pretty graphic) of a dead soldier with his guts hanging out of a massive gaping wound in his abdomen. The picture was taken after the photographer had gotten a feral hog over to the soldier's body and the pig had partially eaten the fresh body, causing what looked like devastating battle damage.

War looks especially hellish when it looks like the dead went through a literal meat grinder.

Saelune:
And in my initial post, I explicitly said I do not blame Dark Souls. My issue is the people who are saying there is nothing wrong with what the people leaving these messages, cause there is.

I think not just shrugging and going 'That's just how it is' and actually making it known that we look down on this behavior is what we should do. We should downvote these comments, not upvote them, and just as a society of people acknowledge that this is shitty behavior, instead of validating it by saying it is fine or that people are overreacting, cause people aren't overreacting, it just seems that way to everyone who is underreacting.

I'm semi sure that with Souls games, they count the votes.

Like, even if a message got rated 4000 downvotes, it will just count as a highly voted on message. There are no penalties for voting. Like it won't be wiped away because it was downvoted.

By and large, I find people with anonymity to be vile and cancerous. It's largely the rest I avoid online when I can.

I used to love Overwatch. The toxicity monitoring in that game is a full time job. A Game about Heroes banning together to save the world. People are sad. And we can't do anything without being authorized by by From Software. Because I assure you, all this article did was make some guys go "Wait, So I can stick it to the SJWs while doing something I think is hysterical... with no potential ramifications?! Christmas came EARLY!"

Oh, this is an amazing coincidence, actually. I just binge-played the entire Dark Souls series a couple of months ago, and all the sexually-themed messages in Majula caught my attention and stuck in my mind.

At the time, I didn't totally understand how the messages worked - I thought that they expired after a period of real-world time, and since it was Dark Souls 2 I was playing, it's like a five-year-old game, I hadn't expected the player-created messages to still be there. So at first, I thought they were messages left by the developers - something they actually do in the tutorials and at other places in order to give the player information. And I was like "man, the guys developing these games really don't have a lot of respect for the NPCs they made, huh?" It gave me the impression that FROM Software was populated entirely by the guys who made Duke Nukem.

The other thing that made me think they were left by the devs was that I didn't understand how the messages were composed; I thought you just typed out a message with your controller or whatever, and so I expected the player-made messages to be mostly like "lol fag" and so on. When I got these weird coded messages like "chest ahead therefore try thrusting", I was surprised, because while it was sexually suggestive innuendo, it wasn't the innuendo I was expecting. I was like "Why do all these messages use the same oblique phrases? Why do they keep saying 'therefore'? Is it an in-joke with the devs? Is it a translation issue?"

It wasn't until I was in Lothric Castle - which is well towards the end of Dark Souls 3 - that I actually tried composing a message myself and realised that they were patched together out of set phrases, which explains their weird, stilted, sometimes-creative construction. Then it twigged that all the sex messages in DS2 were actually left by players, rather than being built-in messages from the devs. Which was a relief, to be frank.

But I can see that this Kotaku writer has noticed the exact same thing when playing through it, but because he has a job as a Kotaku writer, he gets to write an article about it. And, naturally, it turns into a shitfight over so-and-so being sexist. It isn't actually complicated; the message mechanism itself isn't sexist, it's just that a lot of immature players leave sexist messages using the message system, because they're thirteen and still think the vagina is located in the stomach somewhere.

And they're really bloody creative with it, too, so there's not really a solution other than maybe a flag mechanism to get the attention of a...moderator, or something. I don't know. It doesn't bother me terribly, but I have a penis, and I can understand why it'd bother another player who possesses a vagina.

Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

bastardofmelbourne:
it's just that a lot of immature players leave sexist messages using the message system, because they're thirteen and still think the vagina is located in the stomach somewhere

C'mon now, mentally thirteen. Physically 17-34.

Elijin:
Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

Hmm, it's probably dumb to wish for gamers to not be immature, and thus what one might ask for is that when boys are being immature, it wouldn't have anything to do with women. Difficult if not impossible.

ObsidianJones:

I used to love Overwatch. The toxicity monitoring in that game is a full time job. A Game about Heroes banning together to save the world. People are sad.

Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I don't like my name anymore:
These types of articles are getting worse. Even comment section doesn't agree. It sounds like something only an absolute prude can possibly come up with. There's a big difference in offensiveness between penis drawings and double entendres.

Turn it off? Play offline? I'm confused why this is an issue. Nobody is personally attacking you or your gender. Just because the boys are doing it doesn't mean we're marking our territory. Personally I don't want to read your shitty jokes regardless whether its a man or woman doing it, but don't frame it as some feminist thing instead of being hypersensitive to sex jokes.

You didn't have to read the article, you could just just turned off the website.

Elijin:
Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

It serves as a good intro to micro-aggressions if nothing else. On its own they are pretty benign jokes, but they are also jokes that come within the greater context of sexual jokes aimed at women. So while the jokes in DS aren't terribly offensive on their own, they are part of a larger framework with much more offensive jokes and other terrible actions and ideas aimed at women. As a woman who has to suffer through those other jokes and actions on a daily basis, the "chest ahead therefore try thrusting"-joke serves as a reminder that you are still a woman and that others still get to make sexual jokes about your body whenever it pleases them.

It is also incredibly juvenile, which is no reason to defend these jokes at all.

McElroy:
Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I am. A Vast amount of people who see no reason for children and grown people alike go crazy over a game. People who like to just have fun. But again, that's on me. And us. I'll go into it further down below.

Elijin:
Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

Actually, I might be wrong, but I think this is actually the position most people have. I know it's mine.

We're asking for people with anonymity to be mature in an online game. Something that some elements of this forum couldn't even muster, hence them being banned after 3 strikes. The only thing that sensibly can happen is proper moderation that adheres to a thought out guideline.

It's the mental equivalent of people who used to laugh at 'Call of Duty' because it could be heard as 'Call of Doodie'. That infantile, frat boyish 'humor' doesn't insult anything but my intelligence.. and yes, it makes me not want to associate with people like that. But it's not Malicious. And it's not done as a method to draw lines of who is welcomed or not.

Understand, though, that I realize it still might do just that. But I think intention is important to consider as much as the actions.

If a place happens to service a people who are homogeneous in terms of ethnicity, religion, or creed but does not outwardly try to cater to that demographic and/or say people who do not fit into that category are forbidden... any uncomfortableness is on those who see that and feel unwelcomed because it's not familiar.

I'm guilty of doing that. I've stopped myself from going into bars that seemed too frat boy-ish, too young professional (people who live in the Tri State area of Manhattan gets what I'm talking about), or even too of one ethnicity. I never saw a sign "No one who speaks, thinks, or looks like you allowed". But I felt it. By not wearing the home team colors or speaking the home team lingo. Is that their fault, or my own?

I think the most logical path forward is for individuals to toughen up and learn to not let the small things ruin their day rather than attempting to sanitize the entire planet of every little joke that might offend, at the expense of free speech, at the expense of humor, and to the incredible annoyance of everyone else who is not offended.

I think that's the compromise we should strive for. Someone mentioned a scale of 1 to 10. How about people save their energy and outrage for things in the 6-10 range, and let these mostly harmless things slide? And we'll all meet in the middle at 5, have a beer, and call it a day, because that's the best you can hope for in the real world. People are different. People interpret things differently. The world is a chaotic mishmash of all of those varying individuals. There is never going to be a world where nobody is offended or where everyone feels as "comfortable" as everyone else in every situation.

Just a suggestion.

Besides, I don't think the Emerald Herald, the actual butt of these jokes, really cares. She never asked for anyone to come to her "rescue."

image

Kerg3927:
I think the most logical path forward is for individuals to toughen up and learn to not let the small things ruin their day rather than attempting to sanitize the entire planet of every little joke that might offend, at the expense of free speech, at the expense of humor, and to the incredible annoyance of everyone else who is not offended.

I think that's the compromise we should strive for. Someone mentioned a scale of 1 to 10. How about people save their energy and outrage for things in the 6-10 range, and let these mostly harmless things slide? And we'll all meet in the middle at 5, have a beer, and call it a day, because that's the best you can hope for in the real world. People are different. People interpret things differently. The world is a chaotic mishmash of all of those varying individuals. There is never going to be a world where nobody is offended or where everyone feels as "comfortable" as everyone else in every situation.

Just a suggestion.

Besides, I don't think the Emerald Herald, the actual butt of these jokes, really cares. She never asked for anyone to come to her "rescue."

image

So why should we work to the comfort of sexists instead of the people they are offending? If not everyone is going to be comfortable with any answer, then why not make the sexists and bigots the ones who are uncomfortable?

ObsidianJones:

McElroy:
Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I am. A Vast amount of people who see no reason for children and grown people alike go crazy over a game. People who like to just have fun. But again, that's on me. And us. I'll go into it further down below.

Elijin:
Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

Actually, I might be wrong, but I think this is actually the position most people have. I know it's mine.

We're asking for people with anonymity to be mature in an online game. Something that some elements of this forum couldn't even muster, hence them being banned after 3 strikes. The only thing that sensibly can happen is proper moderation that adheres to a thought out guideline.

It's the mental equivalent of people who used to laugh at 'Call of Duty' because it could be heard as 'Call of Doodie'. That infantile, frat boyish 'humor' doesn't insult anything but my intelligence.. and yes, it makes me not want to associate with people like that. But it's not Malicious. And it's not done as a method to draw lines of who is welcomed or not.

Understand, though, that I realize it still might do just that. But I think intention is important to consider as much as the actions.

If a place happens to service a people who are homogeneous in terms of ethnicity, religion, or creed but does not outwardly try to cater to that demographic and/or say people who do not fit into that category are forbidden... any uncomfortableness is on those who see that and feel unwelcomed because it's not familiar.

I'm guilty of doing that. I've stopped myself from going into bars that seemed too frat boy-ish, too young professional (people who live in the Tri State area of Manhattan gets what I'm talking about), or even too of one ethnicity. I never saw a sign "No one who speaks, thinks, or looks like you allowed". But I felt it. By not wearing the home team colors or speaking the home team lingo. Is that their fault, or my own?

What if it was stuff mocking black people?

I dont think anonyminity is a good excuse for this. If anything, it shows how two-faced and aweful these people are. I am probably more honest online than off, and I suspect these people are similar.

Gethsemani:

Elijin:
Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

It serves as a good intro to micro-aggressions if nothing else. On its own they are pretty benign jokes, but they are also jokes that come within the greater context of sexual jokes aimed at women. So while the jokes in DS aren't terribly offensive on their own, they are part of a larger framework with much more offensive jokes and other terrible actions and ideas aimed at women. As a woman who has to suffer through those other jokes and actions on a daily basis, the "chest ahead therefore try thrusting"-joke serves as a reminder that you are still a woman and that others still get to make sexual jokes about your body whenever it pleases them.

It is also incredibly juvenile, which is no reason to defend these jokes at all.

No, shush, men aren't offended by it, so you shouldn't be offended by it, obviously.

(I am sure you know I am being sarcastic, but still, I am being sarcastic and agree with you)

Kerg3927:
I think the most logical path forward is for individuals to toughen up and learn to not let the small things ruin their day rather than attempting to sanitize the entire planet of every little joke that might offend, at the expense of free speech, at the expense of humor, and to the incredible annoyance of everyone else who is not offended.

I think that's the compromise we should strive for. Someone mentioned a scale of 1 to 10. How about people save their energy and outrage for things in the 6-10 range, and let these mostly harmless things slide? And we'll all meet in the middle at 5, have a beer, and call it a day, because that's the best you can hope for in the real world. People are different. People interpret things differently. The world is a chaotic mishmash of all of those varying individuals. There is never going to be a world where nobody is offended or where everyone feels as "comfortable" as everyone else in every situation.

Firstly, I don't see anyone here calling for the planet to be sanitized.

Secondly, just as people are discussing Dark Souls messages, you are discussing people discussing Dark Souls messages. Why should one be let slide and the other not?

Kerg3927:
I think the most logical path forward is for individuals to toughen up and learn to not let the small things ruin their day rather than attempting to sanitize the entire planet of every little joke that might offend, at the expense of free speech, at the expense of humor, and to the incredible annoyance of everyone else who is not offended.

I think that's the compromise we should strive for. Someone mentioned a scale of 1 to 10. How about people save their energy and outrage for things in the 6-10 range, and let these mostly harmless things slide? And we'll all meet in the middle at 5, have a beer, and call it a day, because that's the best you can hope for in the real world. People are different. People interpret things differently. The world is a chaotic mishmash of all of those varying individuals. There is never going to be a world where nobody is offended or where everyone feels as "comfortable" as everyone else in every situation.

Just a suggestion.

Besides, I don't think the Emerald Herald, the actual butt of these jokes, really cares. She never asked for anyone to come to her "rescue."

image

You know, I can't help but find irony that you're saying people should be less offended in a thread full of people who are offended over a Kotaku article and yet you have little interest in talking to them.

ObsidianJones:

McElroy:
Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I am. A Vast amount of people who see no reason for children and grown people alike go crazy over a game. People who like to just have fun. But again, that's on me. And us. I'll go into it further down below.

You are, yeah, but people make those DS comments just for fun and earlier you also called them sad. So it becomes sad people being sad because others are sad. And it seems like it's not anybody's fault either. Welcome to the Circle of Sadness, where everyone's a clown but nobody is laughing.

Saelune:
So why should we work to the comfort of sexists instead of the people they are offending? If not everyone is going to be comfortable with any answer, then why not make the sexists and bigots the ones who are uncomfortable?

Going from unintentional micro-aggression to intentional passive-aggression sounds like a bad compromise.

I personally think women in online gaming can have a positive impact by setting a positive example (you might ask where: in my experience at least in Overwatch).

McElroy:

ObsidianJones:

McElroy:
Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I am. A Vast amount of people who see no reason for children and grown people alike go crazy over a game. People who like to just have fun. But again, that's on me. And us. I'll go into it further down below.

You are, yeah, but people make those DS comments just for fun and earlier you also called them sad. So it becomes sad people being sad because others are sad. And it seems like it's not anybody's fault either. Welcome to the Circle of Sadness, where everyone's a clown but nobody is laughing.

Saelune:
So why should we work to the comfort of sexists instead of the people they are offending? If not everyone is going to be comfortable with any answer, then why not make the sexists and bigots the ones who are uncomfortable?

Going from unintentional micro-aggression to intentional passive-aggression sounds like a bad compromise.

I personally think women in online gaming can have a positive impact by setting a positive example (you might ask where: in my experience at least in Overwatch).

I think it is easier to work from a place of good than a place of bad. For some reason, the notion of fixing the new problems that come from new solutions is often under-considered.

Saelune:
What if it was stuff mocking black people?

I dont think anonyminity is a good excuse for this. If anything, it shows how two-faced and aweful these people are. I am probably more honest online than off, and I suspect these people are similar.

It would be a different situation than what I suggested. I'm talking about self imposed fear and trepidation due to Knowing that I'm 'The Other' and feeling uncomfortable about being surrounded by people who are on 'the same team'. I.E. I won't go into a bar full of Frat-Boys because I'm afraid I'm not frat-boy-ish enough to be accepted.

Anonymity isn't an excuse. Nor is it a reason, per se. It's an element. If people feel they can get away with it, it's left to their moral temerity to choose to do right from wrong. I just don't feel there are many people with such moral temerity (let alone the will) to choose beneficial actions.

And you're right. It does show how two-face and awful people are. I've had a dim outlook of humanity since the 2016 elections. And the masses routinely rise up to prove my stance to be correct. That's all.

McElroy:

ObsidianJones:

McElroy:
Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I am. A Vast amount of people who see no reason for children and grown people alike go crazy over a game. People who like to just have fun. But again, that's on me. And us. I'll go into it further down below.

You are, yeah, but people make those DS comments just for fun and earlier you also called them sad. So it becomes sad people being sad because others are sad. And it seems like it's not anybody's fault either. Welcome to the Circle of Sadness, where everyone's a clown but nobody is laughing.

You hit the nail right on the head. No one's laughing. Not because everyone gets the joke and they are morally outraged (even though some truly are), but because not everyone finds it funny.

It's sad to me. It's like going to an office with professionals and there's that one 40 year old man who still tries to do the 'pull my finger' joke. It's sad. It's grade school... and imagine your chagrin that there's a whole section of the office who thinks it's the funniest thing and can't wait to do it all over that damn office.

One of my favorite movies of my entire life is Clue. If you know anything about Clue, they have a french maid who's dressed right out of a fetish store. A lot of the humor of her character is that she'll bend over and people will stare at her body. As a kid, I was all "hahahaha! look at them making weird faces at that woman!". As a teenager, I got it on another level. As an adult, I have to suffer through those scenes because it makes me cringe. I've been on that side of the ogling during my bodybuilder days. I get the feeling of being a piece of meat, and I'm glad for it because without it I might have an idea that it's bad, but never a true clue on how it actually makes someone feel.

So, yeah. I'm not laughing. Because I have another perspective. A clown that might make me, but I'm fine with it. I may not find humor here, but I know I can find it somewhere else.

ObsidianJones:

McElroy:
Skill Rating is serious business. Hell, you can't even play Overwatch for the story and the characters go from high-functioning sociopaths and a hamster to a Chinese devil that wears cute glasses. What I mean to say is I object to your use of sad. 'Cause who is mourning?

I am. A Vast amount of people who see no reason for children and grown people alike go crazy over a game. People who like to just have fun. But again, that's on me. And us. I'll go into it further down below.

Elijin:
Lot of dudes in here saying nah, this isnt a problem.

The messages may be pretty mild, and all that. It's not the point. It's the boys club mentality of users logging in to find themselves the butt of the joke. As individual acts, they may be pretty insignificant. Its a end effect issue though. Lots of small strokes, creating an environment where certain individuals might feel less than welcome.

It isnt a fault of Dark Souls though. Just elements of the communities that frequent it.

Actually, I might be wrong, but I think this is actually the position most people have. I know it's mine.

We're asking for people with anonymity to be mature in an online game. Something that some elements of this forum couldn't even muster, hence them being banned after 3 strikes. The only thing that sensibly can happen is proper moderation that adheres to a thought out guideline.

It's the mental equivalent of people who used to laugh at 'Call of Duty' because it could be heard as 'Call of Doodie'. That infantile, frat boyish 'humor' doesn't insult anything but my intelligence.. and yes, it makes me not want to associate with people like that. But it's not Malicious. And it's not done as a method to draw lines of who is welcomed or not.

Understand, though, that I realize it still might do just that. But I think intention is important to consider as much as the actions.

If a place happens to service a people who are homogeneous in terms of ethnicity, religion, or creed but does not outwardly try to cater to that demographic and/or say people who do not fit into that category are forbidden... any uncomfortableness is on those who see that and feel unwelcomed because it's not familiar.

I'm guilty of doing that. I've stopped myself from going into bars that seemed too frat boy-ish, too young professional (people who live in the Tri State area of Manhattan gets what I'm talking about), or even too of one ethnicity. I never saw a sign "No one who speaks, thinks, or looks like you allowed". But I felt it. By not wearing the home team colors or speaking the home team lingo. Is that their fault, or my own?

I'll bet most people act like that because they think its expected of them to act like that. I mean parenting hasn't caught up with online games, I would be surprised if the parents of the people who are now playing them spent much time telling them not to be dinks online. The main purpose of this is to give some awareness to people about doing things like this, some people just want to be shitty online but most will probably at least think more about it before doing a dumb joke message. The frat house might make fun of you for asking them to turn down the music but usually they will still turn it down.

Commanderfantasy:
Dark souls messages, are benign by their sheer nature.

Why?

If you do not ask me to clarify meaning, and instead place your own meaning and intent upon another's words, then they are no longer responsible for the way you feel about them.

Well, not really.

Communication is a two-way process. There is some responsibility for the communicated to to interpret reasonably. But it is the responsibility of the communicator to express themselves as clearly as possible. If the communicator does not do so, they can jolly well suck up the fact people might not appreciate what was communicated. The oh-so-common debate line "you didn't understand me" is overused, generally by people who haven't stopped to think that what they wrote wasn't as clear as they thought it was.

Not only that, but we actually have no choice whatsoever but to place our own meaning and intent on another's words. We all have individual understanding of what things mean. Words frequently embody complex concepts, for which there aren't fully shared understanding. Take something really complex like "socialism". Pop into Wikipedia and see all the different things that could be encompassed by socialism: there's no hope two people will have exactly the same understanding of what socialism is. Okay, there's far less chance of misunderstanding for something relatively simple like a "ladder", but even still the possibility exists. If you imagine a staircase that gets narrower and narrower, eventually it's a ladder. But two people may have a different idea of when that boundary is crossed - hence they don't have exactly the same concept of even of what something as simple as a ladder is.

When we get into things like sexism, a person may say "Women are bad drivers", and there is no sexist intent. Perhaps they seriously believe women are featherbrained creatures who can't be trusted with remotely complex tasks which they can rationalise in all manner of ways. So it is to them merely a statement of obvious reality as basic as the fact that gravity keeps their feet stuck to the ground. But it kind of is sexist, isn't it? The intent of that individual really doesn't have to govern what everyone else thinks about it.

Saelune:
So why should we work to the comfort of sexists instead of the people they are offending?

You are the one calling me a sexist. You are the one speculating that people are offended. What gives you the right to define those terms? And to determine that the individuals you label are good or bad people? To speculate about who is offended and who isn't? What gives you the right to be judge and jury? Were you elected to that position? Were you granted that right by some divine power? What if you are wrong?

Saelune:
If not everyone is going to be comfortable with any answer, then why not make the sexists and bigots the ones who are uncomfortable?

Which shows your true motivation, IMO. It's not to make the world a better place, where people are more "comfortable." It's to make it less of a good place for the people you don't like, as arbitrarily defined by you, some random person on the internet.

Thaluikhain:
Firstly, I don't see anyone here calling for the planet to be sanitized.

If they are calling for something this minor to be sanitized, to me it means that they are pretty much pushing for 100% sanitation.

Thaluikhain:
Secondly, just as people are discussing Dark Souls messages, you are discussing people discussing Dark Souls messages. Why should one be let slide and the other not?

Not sure what you mean here, but what I said was just a pragmatic suggestion. Because I see one side of the discussion as being devoid of pragmatism.

erttheking:
You know, I can't help but find irony that you're saying people should be less offended in a thread full of people who are offended over a Kotaku article and yet you have little interest in talking to them.

Am I not talking to everyone in this thread right now?

I wouldn't say offended. More like annoyed. It's kind of like a bad case of jock itch.

It's the equivalent of what idiots carve into public toilet stalls. Can't believe anyone is actually defending that stupid shit

Kerg3927:

Saelune:
So why should we work to the comfort of sexists instead of the people they are offending?

You are the one calling me a sexist. You are the one speculating that people are offended. What gives you the right to define those terms? And to determine that the individuals you label are good or bad people? To speculate about who is offended and who isn't? What gives you the right to be judge and jury? Were you elected to that position? Were you granted that right by some divine power? What if you are wrong?

Saelune:
If not everyone is going to be comfortable with any answer, then why not make the sexists and bigots the ones who are uncomfortable?

Which shows your true motivation, IMO. It's not to make the world a better place, where people are more "comfortable." It's to make it less of a good place for the people you don't like, as arbitrarily defined by you, some random person on the internet.

Thaluikhain:
Firstly, I don't see anyone here calling for the planet to be sanitized.

If they are calling for something this minor to be sanitized, to me it means that they are pretty much pushing for 100% sanitation.

Thaluikhain:
Secondly, just as people are discussing Dark Souls messages, you are discussing people discussing Dark Souls messages. Why should one be let slide and the other not?

Not sure what you mean here, but what I said was just a pragmatic suggestion. Because I see one side of the discussion as being devoid of pragmatism.

erttheking:
You know, I can't help but find irony that you're saying people should be less offended in a thread full of people who are offended over a Kotaku article and yet you have little interest in talking to them.

Am I not talking to everyone in this thread right now?

I wouldn't say offended. More like annoyed. It's kind of like a bad case of jock itch.

I didn't call you a sexist. I was arguing that you were defending sexists.

What gives me the right? Well, atleast as much as whatever gives YOU the right. Why does yours supersede mine?

What if YOU are wrong? If you are going to disagree with me, don't use arguments that work against yourself too.

*sigh* So your true motivation is the same thing then. I just chose to side with the people not starting the shit.

Seriously, virtually everything you just said to me, imagine me saying it to you right back.

Kerg3927:

Thaluikhain:
Firstly, I don't see anyone here calling for the planet to be sanitized.

If they are calling for something this minor to be sanitized, to me it means that they are pretty much pushing for 100% sanitation.

Not even the article itself has any call to action. It's an observation piece about a subculture. And the discussion taking place here is about the validity of that observation, and the forces which create the culture.

Im always fascinated by people who react to any discussion of negative aspects of the world with your kind of knee jerk push back. "No talking about problem! No acknowledging problem! Everyone just get thicker skin! I dont want to live in a world where I have to consider the cultures I participate it!"

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