'Chosen People' vs 'Master Race'?

 Pages PREV 1 2
 

Gorfias:
I'm a terrible Jew, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, that the idea of "Chosen People" has to do with being chosen by G-d to receive the divine truth and law, which has little to do with killing people.

Also, the master race didn't allow for people joining in.

First point, it had plenty to do with killing people. According to the bible, being God's obedient chosen basically means you can't lose a battle.

Your second point is an excellent one. You can become a Jew, you can't become a different race.

ravensheart18:

5.Prohibition of Blasphemy

That one is really the only problem for me. It's too much fun sometimes.

WouldYouKindly:

Gorfias:
I'm a terrible Jew, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, that the idea of "Chosen People" has to do with being chosen by G-d to receive the divine truth and law, which has little to do with killing people.

Also, the master race didn't allow for people joining in.

First point, it had plenty to do with killing people. According to the bible, being God's obedient chosen basically means you can't lose a battle.

No, it doesn't say that actually. They lost battles, even when god was with them.

ravensheart18:

5.Prohibition of Blasphemy

That one is really the only problem for me. It's too much fun sometimes.

To quote my Islamic friend "Allah is merciful".

If that's the worst you do I don't god would consider you a bad person lol

Katatori-kun:

It's not the same logic. You are absolutely right that the Israeli position of persecuting Palestinians today is a double standard, though you make the mostrous error of not specifically linking that persecution with the state of Israel and thus allow your argument to be misinterpreted as though you believe the persecution comes from Jews in general.

I know that what constitutes and differentiates between a race/religion/culture is hazy at best (generally people define it to be whatever suits them at the time - "You can't criticise my burqa, that's racist!"), but Israel is by definition the Jewish homeland. You need to have maternal Jewish ancestry to qualify for citizenship. But yes, point taken, while most Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli and I know that not all Jews are pro-Zionist or approve of how Palestinians are being treated.

Batou667:

Katatori-kun:

It's not the same logic. You are absolutely right that the Israeli position of persecuting Palestinians today is a double standard, though you make the mostrous error of not specifically linking that persecution with the state of Israel and thus allow your argument to be misinterpreted as though you believe the persecution comes from Jews in general.

I know that what constitutes and differentiates between a race/religion/culture is hazy at best (generally people define it to be whatever suits them at the time - "You can't criticise my burqa, that's racist!"), but Israel is by definition the Jewish homeland. You need to have maternal Jewish ancestry to qualify for citizenship. But yes, point taken, while most Israelis are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli and I know that not all Jews are pro-Zionist or approve of how Palestinians are being treated.

Just to clarify, you need to have a maternal Jewish ancestry OR have converted through an accepted authority to qualify for citizenship.

Batou667:

You need to have maternal Jewish ancestry to qualify for citizenship.

Law of Return 1950:

4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952,*** as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

Source

Zach of Fables:

Batou667:

You need to have maternal Jewish ancestry to qualify for citizenship.

Law of Return 1950:

4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952,*** as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

Source

And of course that leads to "who is a Jew" http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html

ravensheart18:

tanis1lionheart:
I was thinking about the Old Testament and how, in the bible (if you take it as truth), the Hebrews committed several acts of depravity like mass murders and general genocide.

But, this was/is okay because they were/are the 'Chosen People'.

First off you need to understand that you don't know what chosen people means. They were chosen to receive the Torah and live by the Torah so that others can see what they do. That's it. They aren't the only one god likes. They don't carry the only true messages from god. They aren't even suppost to try to convert people. God does not let them off because they are chosen, actually by the number of laws he expects about 100x more of us than of any other person so its the rest of you that have it easy thanks to us being chosen.

Tell that to some Israelis (sorry for kicking that dead donkey again but it has to be said), they argue that their illegal settlements in Palestine are ok as they are the chosen people and that the land was given to them by god. They are essentially saying they are more special than Palestinians and deserve special treatment and reverence, quite similar to some who promote the master race ideology.

Karma168:

ravensheart18:

tanis1lionheart:
I was thinking about the Old Testament and how, in the bible (if you take it as truth), the Hebrews committed several acts of depravity like mass murders and general genocide.

But, this was/is okay because they were/are the 'Chosen People'.

First off you need to understand that you don't know what chosen people means. They were chosen to receive the Torah and live by the Torah so that others can see what they do. That's it. They aren't the only one god likes. They don't carry the only true messages from god. They aren't even suppost to try to convert people. God does not let them off because they are chosen, actually by the number of laws he expects about 100x more of us than of any other person so its the rest of you that have it easy thanks to us being chosen.

Tell that to some Israelis (sorry for kicking that dead donkey again but it has to be said), they argue that their illegal settlements in Palestine are ok as they are the chosen people and that the land was given to them by god. They are essentially saying they are more special than Palestinians and deserve special treatment and reverence, quite similar to some who promote the master race ideology.

Given a large enough group "some" people with think anything about any topic. Doesn't mean they are justified in thinking that or that everyone agrees with them. There is also a group of people (including many of the original zionists) who felt that you couldn't claim back what god originally promissed until god came back and said so (basically the time of the Mashiach)

For most people the West Bank strategy really is a political tool/lever.

Besides, even for those that believe it, they just believe they have prior ownership of that piece of land and that they are just reclaiming stolen property. It doesn't speak at all to them being a superior race in general.

tanis1lionheart:
I was thinking about the Old Testament and how, in the bible (if you take it as truth), the Hebrews committed several acts of depravity like mass murders and general genocide.

But, this was/is okay because they were/are the 'Chosen People'.

Now, if someone considers themselves part of the 'Master Race' and they did/advocate the same thing....
How is that any different?

Why is it 'okay' for the "Chosen People" but not for the "Master Race"?

-NOTE-
I'm not advocating either CP or MR, I'm just wondering why it's 'okay' for one but not the other.

The 'Master Race' hadn't been enslaved countless of times under the rule of other nations, enslaved, struck by their leader, split apart and crumble due to their supposed sins.
You are not familiar with the Jewish Bible, not at all. They preform Genocide, Murder, Rape, many many things that others did. The difference? They left a legacy.
But it's nothing compared to their suffering due to their lack of faith in their God, The enslavement in Egypt, the Enslavement under The Philistines, the Northern Tribes (from Lebanon, forgot their damn name)... There had been a time in which every 50 years or so a Judge came that saved the people from enslavement, Judged them and led them to the right path. Then the people sinned and were enslaved AGAIN by other nations... till the age of Kings came in. That is, if you believe that kind of thing, and if you asked that question then you are supposing that all of that crap happened.
.
*** PLEASE, before you say those things in public, consult with your local Educated Jewish friend or the Internet. Remember, the Internet is your friend. ***

Well, there's little difference I can see. One group is a bunch of ideological homophobes believing they were selected by god. The other is a bunch of ideological racists believing they were selected by nature. Both are obviously deluded.

ravensheart18:
...
Secondly some things that you might think are depraved certainly weren't that back then. A lot has changed in 3000+ years.
...

The scripture telling you what is good and proper haven't changed one sentence though.

Octogunspunk:
This has always bugged me. In essence, it's exactly the same thing. No such thing as "chosen people", Zionist hypocrisy at its finest...

The whole concept of Zionism reeks of double standards and hypocrisy. Jews are allowed to be proud and racially selective, Whites are supposed to be ashamed and guilty or else risk being judged neo-nazis.

Not much of an actual problem though.

The exclusionary and isolationist tendencies amongst (some of) the followers of Judaism have come back to bite them - hard - since pretty much forever.

And white people who'd feel guilt over stuff they personally didn't have anything to do with should feel ashamed of themselves for their foolishness, whereas the "people" who'd unjustly condemn individuals for not doing so are generally pretty powerless in the grand scope of things (though they certainly talk a big game).

...and is that Ryūgū Rena I spot?

tanis1lionheart:
I was thinking about the Old Testament and how, in the bible (if you take it as truth), the Hebrews committed several acts of depravity like mass murders and general genocide.

But, this was/is okay because they were/are the 'Chosen People'.

Now, if someone considers themselves part of the 'Master Race' and they did/advocate the same thing....
How is that any different?

Why is it 'okay' for the "Chosen People" but not for the "Master Race"?

-NOTE-
I'm not advocating either CP or MR, I'm just wondering why it's 'okay' for one but not the other.

The Old Testament was written by the Jews for the Jews so of course Jews are going to be "special" in the book.

Imperator_DK:
Well, there's little difference I can see. One group is a bunch of ideological homophobes believing they were selected by god. The other is a bunch of ideological racists believing they were selected by nature. Both are obviously deluded.

ravensheart18:
...
Secondly some things that you might think are depraved certainly weren't that back then. A lot has changed in 3000+ years.
...

The scripture telling you what is good and proper haven't changed one sentence though.

You are right, the laws telling them to behave are still on the books. And of course the times they were told to do hard things were directed at a certain time and a certain place. They authorized no other similar action later. And of course you have 3000ish years of law and prophets expanding on increasing human rights and pointing out the old laws set direction and minimum standards.

Just one more thought on this...

Two people go to job interview, one is hired for that job. Was the person chosen to be hired "special"? Were they superior? That would be quite a conclusion to jump to, its just they were best for that partiular job at that particular time and thus were chosen. Heck, the other person might have been OVER qualified.

The only two reasons for people to claim "chosen" in reference to the Jewish people means "superior to others" is if ignorance or bigotry is involved.

ravensheart18:

The only two reasons for people to claim "chosen" in reference to the Jewish people means "superior to others" is if ignorance or bigotry is involved.

Well...okay, what were the Jewish people chosen by God chosen for then?

Amnestic:
Well...okay, what were the Jewish people chosen by God chosen for then?

My Jewish History, given from a friend of mine(And I'm doing a hazy paraphrasing here), basically said that the Jewish people were chosen by God first to live and find the Promised Land, and then to thrive and prosper after they settle the Promised Land and any who stand in that way be damned. But like I said, it's a hazy paraphrasing from over three years ago.

But you have to admit, looking through history. The Jewish people have been around since circa 600 BCE, possibly even longer. Most religious and specific civilizations don't last longer than a couple hundred years, the two longest I remember from history in reference to Judaism being the Roman Empire and the Egyptian Empires(And it's plural since they went through so many different dynasties and breakdowns that it was basically separate restarts). But even those empires were lost to history. [joke]Something's keeping them Jews from dying off, that's for sure.[/joke]

WouldYouKindly:

First point, it had plenty to do with killing people. According to the bible, being God's obedient chosen basically means you can't lose a battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

So far, so good then eh?

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Amnestic:

ravensheart18:

The only two reasons for people to claim "chosen" in reference to the Jewish people means "superior to others" is if ignorance or bigotry is involved.

Well...okay, what were the Jewish people chosen by God chosen for then?

I'm going to be lazy and quote myself from earlier in this thread :)

ravensheart18:
They were chosen to receive the Torah and live by the Torah so that others can see what they do. That's it. They aren't the only one god likes. They don't carry the only true messages from god.

ravensheart18:

Rastelin:

ravensheart18:
so its the rest of you that have it easy thanks to us being chosen.

Well well. Quite the statement. Here is mine.
When I studied the bible, I came at the end of my faith to this conclusion. The Israelites where nothing more than robber tribes. The stories in the bible describes child killers and rapists who claimed to have celestial approval for their pillage and genocide..

So I am sure you see why any gratefulness for having it easier on account of a people with that kind of heritage would result in a total lack of gratitude on my part. It pisses me even more off when I hear Jews trying to defend this. Religious morality in a nut shell.

You find where in the law it says they are superior to others as was claimed.

We are taught, clearly in Torah, not just in law that came later, that there are only 7 laws that anyone needs to be followed to be loved by god (and all 7 can be followed without problem by a moral atheist). There are over 600 on Israelites. So to the poin you quoted, yes, god is easier on the rest of the world than he is on Jews, that's what we get for being chosen.

Most of the misunderstanding of "chosen people" comes from a couple thousand years of christian history where they tried to make themselves the goodguy and paint the evil Jews as the devils that killed god.

those seven laws are the Seven laws of Noah, right?

What a crock of shit.

Anyone who claims they are a chosen people by God should be the first in the firing line. Self-righteous cunts.

Religion is a joke.

Nuke LaLoosh:

Religion is a joke.

Pretty much this. The fact God, the owner of the universe, would even bother to say "this stretch of useless land is yours" makes no logical sense.

Why would God bother to do any of this stuff to please a group of tribes? A god that has sentience and bothers to put rules on his "subjects" should bother to prove he exists first.

Nuke LaLoosh:
What a crock of shit.

Anyone who claims they are a chosen people by God should be the first in the firing line. Self-righteous cunts.

Religion is a joke.

So you want to shoot me do you?

Rather than spewing your bigotted hatred at an entire group, maybe you should try reading the thread so you know what the heck you are talking about.

Oirish_Martin:

ravensheart18:
We are taught, clearly in Torah, not just in law that came later, that there are only 7 laws that anyone needs to be followed to be loved by god (and all 7 can be followed without problem by a moral atheist).

Out of curiosity, which 7 are they?

the seven laws of noah

In the Bible the people who inhabbited the holy land were extremely into Baal worship. In that particular belief it was common to sacrafice the first born child by throwing them into a fire pit. They also believed that thier daughters for a time were to be prostitutes. Also if you read that part of the bible the Jews were told to kill all of the people who had lived thier at the time but they did not follow Jehovahs instruction and the Jews paid for it in the long run because some continued to fall back into the Baal worship.
Also Jehovah did stop the Jews from killing those deserving life. In the bible it makes it very clear that the only beinging that can decide who lives and dies is up to Jehovah himself even when the Jewish kings began doing the wrong thing Jehovah had them executed in a proper fashion for example Jezabel. Thats the difference the Master Race thought everyone who was not like them should die. The Jews had strict rules that saved those who wanted to to live in thier countries no different from the way the U.S. expects thier citizens to follow the laws.

Tanis:
I was thinking about the Old Testament and how, in the bible (if you take it as truth), the Hebrews committed several acts of depravity like mass murders and general genocide.

But, this was/is okay because they were/are the 'Chosen People'.

Now, if someone considers themselves part of the 'Master Race' and they did/advocate the same thing....
How is that any different?

Why is it 'okay' for the "Chosen People" but not for the "Master Race"?

-NOTE-
I'm not advocating either CP or MR, I'm just wondering why it's 'okay' for one but not the other.

God chose Abraham and made a covenant with Abraham. In addition many of the Hebrews like Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, and especially David (to name a few) were faithful to God. God made a covenant with them and their descendants and God does not break His covenants. That does not mean there is anything special about the Hebrews or the Jews themselves, only that they among all peoples have been chosen by God. Why God chose them I cannot say.

Endersgate1321:
In the Bible the people who inhabbited the holy land were extremely into Baal worship. In that particular belief it was common to sacrafice the first born child by throwing them into a fire pit. They also believed that thier daughters for a time were to be prostitutes. Also if you read that part of the bible the Jews were told to kill all of the people who had lived thier at the time but they did not follow Jehovahs instruction and the Jews paid for it in the long run because some continued to fall back into the Baal worship.
Also Jehovah did stop the Jews from killing those deserving life. In the bible it makes it very clear that the only beinging that can decide who lives and dies is up to Jehovah himself even when the Jewish kings began doing the wrong thing Jehovah had them executed in a proper fashion for example Jezabel. Thats the difference the Master Race thought everyone who was not like them should die. The Jews had strict rules that saved those who wanted to to live in thier countries no different from the way the U.S. expects thier citizens to follow the laws.

First off, the name is not "Jehovah". Second, if you are referring to the sacred name of Hashem or G-d, then you should know that your not supposed to say/write/type that sacred name.
That said, I don't really disagree with the rest of what you typed.

Endersgate1321:
In the Bible the people who inhabbited the holy land were extremely into Baal worship. In that particular belief it was common to sacrafice the first born child by throwing them into a fire pit. They also believed that thier daughters for a time were to be prostitutes. Also if you read that part of the bible the Jews were told to kill all of the people who had lived thier at the time but they did not follow Jehovahs instruction and the Jews paid for it in the long run because some continued to fall back into the Baal worship.
Also Jehovah did stop the Jews from killing those deserving life. In the bible it makes it very clear that the only beinging that can decide who lives and dies is up to Jehovah himself even when the Jewish kings began doing the wrong thing Jehovah had them executed in a proper fashion for example Jezabel. Thats the difference the Master Race thought everyone who was not like them should die. The Jews had strict rules that saved those who wanted to to live in thier countries no different from the way the U.S. expects thier citizens to follow the laws.

The problem with the bible is that it got most of its descriptions of the practices of those who worshiped competing gods to Yahweh wrong. It basically was a propaganda machine when it came to describing the practices of the other canaanite groups.

If you study the laws and scriptures of the surrounding groups they had very similar beliefs and practices to the Yahweh worshipers (some of them even better when it came to the treatment of slaves and the like) they just focused on their local god.

By the way, I am talking from the perspective of history which shows the original Israelite tribes were canaanites - not the myth about slavery in Egypt and the conquest of the promised land.

Endersgate1321:
In the Bible the people who inhabbited the holy land were extremely into Baal worship. In that particular belief it was common to sacrafice the first born child by throwing them into a fire pit. They also believed that thier daughters for a time were to be prostitutes. Also if you read that part of the bible the Jews were told to kill all of the people who had lived thier at the time but they did not follow Jehovahs instruction and the Jews paid for it in the long run because some continued to fall back into the Baal worship.
Also Jehovah did stop the Jews from killing those deserving life. In the bible it makes it very clear that the only beinging that can decide who lives and dies is up to Jehovah himself even when the Jewish kings began doing the wrong thing Jehovah had them executed in a proper fashion for example Jezabel. Thats the difference the Master Race thought everyone who was not like them should die. The Jews had strict rules that saved those who wanted to to live in thier countries no different from the way the U.S. expects thier citizens to follow the laws.

Pssst, you know 'Baal' is just a honorific meaning 'Lord', right? It's not an actual specific god.

Endersgate1321:
In the Bible the people who inhabbited the holy land were extremely into Baal worship. In that particular belief it was common to sacrafice the first born child by throwing them into a fire pit. They also believed that thier daughters for a time were to be prostitutes. Also if you read that part of the bible the Jews were told to kill all of the people who had lived thier at the time but they did not follow Jehovahs instruction and the Jews paid for it in the long run because some continued to fall back into the Baal worship.

Should be carefull with stories like that, as the biblical depiction of other religions is often little more than hate propaganda to justify committing atrocities against those people.

As for using your daughter as a prostitute, that would be Jewish/Christian custom. You're allowed to sell your own daughter as a sex slave after all (Exodus 21).

A likely explanation for all the demonization of the Canaanites is that over time, some of the (re)writers of various holy scriptures grew so revolted by their own people's barbaric customs that they redefined them as being a different people and then demonized them. Like Electrojosh already mentioned, the Israelites basically are the Canaanites. They're the same ethnic group, that split somewhere around the reign of some obscure king, which caused a revolt, and when that succeeded the new rulers depicted their predecessors as being part of a different people.

 Pages PREV 1 2

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked