So, Trayvon Martin. (Updated 9/10: From the duh and oops departments)

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 . . . 43 NEXT
 

Tyler Perry:
Also, when someone is actually being followed when they are on foot and the other person is in a vehicle, it's pretty easy to tell that from "just going to the same place." Two cars pulling into the same place is not the same as a guy in a car slowly and, apparently, obviously following a pedestrian.

Apparently you have never driven before. You are driving through a neighborhood looking for a particular house/apartment/etc that you have never seen before. It is dark so you are driving really slowly to try and find the numbers (I swear some builds put them in the most hard to see areas possible). OR in the case I mentioned earlier I was driving really slowly both so that my engine would not be too loud and so that I could look around for movement.

So you think that Martin was right to fear for his life but he was wrong to fear for his life. Got to love that logic.

Learn to fucking read. I didn't say Martin's life WAS in danger, since at that very moment I don't think it was. However, what I did say was that it was not unreasonable for Martin to think his life was in danger. There is a difference, although I see you're apparently not one for nuance.

Apparently you are not either. Try rereading what I said. See your mistake or are you too obtuse to notice?

I never said Zimmerman's actions were illegal (regarding following Martin). I think they were unnecessary, stupid and paranoid, but not illegal.

Which is an important point.

How the fuck do you know if they were threatening? You weren't there. I don't know if they were threatening or not; however, Martin certainly felt threatened.

Apparently not since he stopped and confronted Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's decision to get out of the car and pursue Martin on foot CREATED the entire dynamic.

No it didn't. Zimmerman seeing Martin (and whatever else he saw that gave the impression of wrong doing) started the event. The dynamic up until the point when Martin turned around was Zimmerman watching Martin. That is not threatening, illegal, or even the slightest bit interesting.

I'm determined to attack Zimmerman for whatever I can? Reading comprehension ain't your strong suit, is it? What you are saying is largely based on supposition and your apparent clairvoyance.

Actually what I am saying is based on the evidence from the case and my years of training people in self defense including escape and evasion techniques.

You are claiming that the situation was created by Martin, while completely dismissing the fact that George Zimmerman decided to play cop and pursued Martin in the first place.

Let me ask you something, WHY THE FUCK IS THIS CASE DIFFERENT FROM EVER OTHER NEIGHTBORHOOD WATCH CASE? Because of the shooting. Zimmerman's actions are not unique and yet all of those similar instances do not lead to anyone getting shot so why now? Because Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman. If not for that change this case would not be unique in the slightest.

Does the phrase "fight or flight" mean anything to you? Not everyone picks the latter option.

And that is supposed to convince me of what?

Martin might not have been afraid for his life; however, he might have been afraid for his safety. Again, two different things.

So afraid for his safety that he decided to confront Zimmerman. That is one of the many points that you keep missing/ignoring.

Stilt:
140lb kid thats 6'3" = small

6'0 and 160IB by the police report and neither one is small.

Precedent for racial violence as an outcome: Rodney King verdict.

Wow, you must really have a low opinion of the black community.

Slammed his head into the concrete? Yea right, the 1 witness corroborating his story is questionable, especially since there are many more witness on the other end of the scale.

Prove it.

If you listen to the neighbors 911 call, the screams of help can clearly be heard, they are high pitched screams, childlike.

Yeah, men sound like that when they scream. Have you ever heard a man scream is absolute pain before? I have and up close.

BTW I do not know what your gender is but I am a male and by the time I was 17 my voice had loooooooooong ago changed. Hell, by that point I was already shaving daily.

The whole process is questionable, why didnt the police follow protocol and press Z immediately upon arrival?

Because questioning a person without a lawyer or a recorder present is somewhat frowned upon.

Why did the police just take Z's account at face value?

You are aware that they arrested him and took him to the jail right?

That never happens normally, the best time to ask questions is immediately upon arrival because the suspect has no time to fabricate a story.

Unless the suspect is aware of his rights and understands he has the right to remain silent and anything he says can be used AGAINST HIM (not for him) in a court of law. Standard training in CHL classes in Texas includes training on the laws and on how to react to LEOs after you use your firearm.

BTW the stress of being behind a table talking to an LEO usually trumps any story you can make up.

If some weird fat guy started following you at night, harassing you, isnt it normal to yell at the guy to go the fuck away and stop harassing you?

First of all not harassment. Second of all you NEVER confront a person if you think they mean you harm.

To me that seems like a totally legitimate response to a stalker.

Not a stalker either.

Why didnt z listen to police when they told him not to follow tm?

According to Zimmerman he did. As soon as the said that he started talking and apparently was walking back to his truck.

The evidence for your view that Z is innocent or that there's a reasonable doubt to his guilt is nonexistant, while my view that he is guilty is backed up by a landslide of evidence. Defending this guy is illogical at best and passive aggressively racist at worst

Congratulations, you have proven that you have no idea what you are talking about.

First of all there is plenty of proof that Zimmerman did not commit any illegal action. There is also plenty of proof for a manslaughter conviction BUT there is no evidence whatsoever to support your murder theory.

BTW got to love the fact that you pulled the race card. Yo hombre, do you know what my actual race is? I will give you a hint, my family is from Texas.

Stilt:
Also, he said in the 911 call "They always get away, FUCKING COONS" Is that not evidence enough for you?? If not, then nothing will be.

Actually it is generally accepted that he said "punks".

Stilt:

Dont give me that fucking goons bs either

Right. It's fucking cunts.

I may disagree with farson that Zim's innocent, but he's right on one thing: the evidence that we the public have is not really conclusive. Far from the slam dunk you're portraying it as.

The prosecution obviously thinks differently (even if they're trying to get a plea deal, they've gotta have something to convince the defense it's not worth risking a trial), but they also have evidence we do not.

Even Al Sharpton's essentially saying we should all just step back, take a deep breath, and let the system do its thing.

farson135:
Apparently you are not either. Try rereading what I said. See your mistake or are you too obtuse to notice?

What fucking mistake? It's not my fault you have absolutely no concept of nuance.

Let me ask you something, WHY THE FUCK IS THIS CASE DIFFERENT FROM EVER OTHER NEIGHTBORHOOD WATCH CASE? Because of the shooting. Zimmerman's actions are not unique and yet all of those similar instances do not lead to anyone getting shot so why now? Because Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman. If not for that change this case would not be unique in the slightest.

What "other neighborhood watch case"? Most neighborhood watchmen don't follow people around in their cars.

So afraid for his safety that he decided to confront Zimmerman. That is one of the many points that you keep missing/ignoring.

You are at least insinuating here that everyone who is concerned for their safety is going to run away, which is certainly not the case. That's what YOU are missing/ignoring in your desperate attempt to exonerate George Zimmerman for any wrongdoing.

farson135:

Stilt:
140lb kid thats 6'3" = small

6'0 and 160IB by the police report and neither one is small.

Precedent for racial violence as an outcome: Rodney King verdict.

Wow, you must really have a low opinion of the black community.

Slammed his head into the concrete? Yea right, the 1 witness corroborating his story is questionable, especially since there are many more witness on the other end of the scale.

Prove it.

If you listen to the neighbors 911 call, the screams of help can clearly be heard, they are high pitched screams, childlike.

Yeah, men sound like that when they scream. Have you ever heard a man scream is absolute pain before? I have and up close.

BTW I do not know what your gender is but I am a male and by the time I was 17 my voice had loooooooooong ago changed. Hell, by that point I was already shaving daily.

The whole process is questionable, why didnt the police follow protocol and press Z immediately upon arrival?

Because questioning a person without a lawyer or a recorder present is somewhat frowned upon.

Why did the police just take Z's account at face value?

You are aware that they arrested him and took him to the jail right?

That never happens normally, the best time to ask questions is immediately upon arrival because the suspect has no time to fabricate a story.

Unless the suspect is aware of his rights and understands he has the right to remain silent and anything he says can be used AGAINST HIM (not for him) in a court of law. Standard training in CHL classes in Texas includes training on the laws and on how to react to LEOs after you use your firearm.

BTW the stress of being behind a table talking to an LEO usually trumps any story you can make up.

If some weird fat guy started following you at night, harassing you, isnt it normal to yell at the guy to go the fuck away and stop harassing you?

First of all not harassment. Second of all you NEVER confront a person if you think they mean you harm.

To me that seems like a totally legitimate response to a stalker.

Not a stalker either.

Why didnt z listen to police when they told him not to follow tm?

According to Zimmerman he did. As soon as the said that he started talking and apparently was walking back to his truck.

The evidence for your view that Z is innocent or that there's a reasonable doubt to his guilt is nonexistant, while my view that he is guilty is backed up by a landslide of evidence. Defending this guy is illogical at best and passive aggressively racist at worst

Congratulations, you have proven that you have no idea what you are talking about.

First of all there is plenty of proof that Zimmerman did not commit any illegal action. There is also plenty of proof for a manslaughter conviction BUT there is no evidence whatsoever to support your murder theory.

BTW got to love the fact that you pulled the race card. Yo hombre, do you know what my actual race is? I will give you a hint, my family is from Texas.

Stilt:
Also, he said in the 911 call "They always get away, FUCKING COONS" Is that not evidence enough for you?? If not, then nothing will be.

Actually it is generally accepted that he said "punks".

I checked the audio myself after I said that, i believe what he said was its fucking cold, i wasnt aware of the enhancement.

I dont get how you cant see the possibility that this was racially motivated, it seems FUCKING OBVIOUS. They didnt take him to jail, they detained him.

He did listen to th epolice? Is that why he chased Trayvon? It appears to me that we have differing opinions on the definition of following orders.

There are only two facts that matter in the end: 1) Zimmerman chased trayvon, 2) zimmerman killed trayvon. Everything else is secondary

evilneko:
I may disagree with farson that Zim's innocent, but he's right on one thing: the evidence that we the public have is not really conclusive. Far from the slam dunk you're portraying it as.

STOP. In no way shape or form did I declare Zimmerman innocent. I may have moved off of Murder 2 but I am still firmly in the Manslaughter category. I just disagree with these guys on how culpable Martin is in what happened. They want to portray Martin as innocent but the fact is that even if he did not attack Zimmerman he still holds a significant part in the way the entire incident went down.

Stilt:

I checked the audio myself after I said that, i believe what he said was its fucking cold, i wasnt aware of the enhancement.

I dont get how you cant see the possibility that this was racially motivated, it seems FUCKING OBVIOUS. They didnt take him to jail, they detained him.

He did listen to th epolice? Is that why he chased Trayvon? It appears to me that we have differing opinions on the definition of following orders.

There are only two facts that matter in the end: 1) Zimmerman chased trayvon, 2) zimmerman killed trayvon. Everything else is secondary

Zimmerman's testimony was that he began following Martin when M ran, but that Z stopped following M when the police dispatcher said it wasn't necessary. If you listen, this is actually supported by the 911 call. You can hear Z running to begin with, you can also hear him stopping (or at least slowing down to the point that his footsteps are no longer audible) when asked.

For the facts you present, #1 is in question and not necessarily truth, and #2 is worthless for determining guilt without the "secondary" details you dismiss so readily. The fact that Martin is now dead does NOT automatically mean he was murdered, in the same manner that the fact that Martin was black and Zimmerman half white does NOT automatically mean the incident occured because of race.

It very well may turn out to be that Zimmerman is a black hating son of a bitch that finally got a chance to bag himself a n****r with few questions asked, at least to begin with. It also very well may be that Zimmerman did nothing (at least legally, ethically just might be another matter) wrong that day, and he is now being unfairly maligned in the court of public opinion. Frankly, the evidence that we the public have is so conflicting and/or ambiguous that it could easily go either way, or towards any of a hundred different scenarios in between the two. Stop assuming that you know the objective verifiable truth of what happened, you do not, and neither does anyone else in this thread.

P.S. Zimmerman was never "ordered" to do a damn thing. Even as part of the community watch, he isn't legally required to obey requests of that type. Even if he had been directly ordered to stop and did choose to continue, it might have indicated poor judgement and/or malign intent, but otherwise would have no legal bearing on the case.

farson135:

evilneko:
I may disagree with farson that Zim's innocent, but he's right on one thing: the evidence that we the public have is not really conclusive. Far from the slam dunk you're portraying it as.

STOP. In no way shape or form did I declare Zimmerman innocent. I may have moved off of Murder 2 but I am still firmly in the Manslaughter category. I just disagree with these guys on how culpable Martin is in what happened. They want to portray Martin as innocent but the fact is that even if he did not attack Zimmerman he still holds a significant part in the way the entire incident went down.

Fair enough ... I didn't realize you were.

I'm certainly not saying that Martin is entirely blameless; however, your opinion seems to be that there was nothing threatening about Zimmerman's actions, and I disagree.

Heronblade:

Stilt:

I checked the audio myself after I said that, i believe what he said was its fucking cold, i wasnt aware of the enhancement.

I dont get how you cant see the possibility that this was racially motivated, it seems FUCKING OBVIOUS. They didnt take him to jail, they detained him.

He did listen to th epolice? Is that why he chased Trayvon? It appears to me that we have differing opinions on the definition of following orders.

There are only two facts that matter in the end: 1) Zimmerman chased trayvon, 2) zimmerman killed trayvon. Everything else is secondary

Zimmerman's testimony was that he began following Martin when M ran, but that Z stopped following M when the police dispatcher said it wasn't necessary. If you listen, this is actually supported by the 911 call. You can hear Z running to begin with, you can also hear him stopping (or at least slowing down to the point that his footsteps are no longer audible) when asked.

For the facts you present, #1 is in question and not necessarily truth, and #2 is worthless for determining guilt without the "secondary" details you dismiss so readily. The fact that Martin is now dead does NOT automatically mean he was murdered, in the same manner that the fact that Martin was black and Zimmerman half white does NOT automatically mean he was killed because of race.

It very well may turn out to be that Zimmerman is a black hating son of a bitch that finally got a chance to bag himself a n****r with few questions asked, at least to begin with. It also very well may be that Zimmerman did nothing (at least legally) wrong that day, and he is now being unfairly maligned in the court of public opinion. Frankly, the evidence that we the public have is so conflicting and/or ambiguous that it could easily go either way, or towards any of a hundred different scenarios in between the two. Stop assuming that you know the objective verifiable truth of what happened, you do not, and neither does anyone else in this thread.

To get off on self defense, you have to prove that you had reason to believe your life was in danger. Even in the state of florida with the comical stand your ground law, Zimmerman has to prove that he believed his life to be in danger. Let me ask you this, do you not find it outrageous that z was allowed to walk free for more than a month while the police sat on their fat asses doing nothing? They abandoned all normal protocol for this one guy: why?

Tyler Perry:
What fucking mistake? It's not my fault you have absolutely no concept of nuance.

Sigh. I suppose I should not be surprised. I said-

So you think that Martin was right to fear for his life but he was wrong to fear for his life.

Fearing for one's life is not the same as being in literal danger.

What "other neighborhood watch case"? Most neighborhood watchmen don't follow people around in their cars.

Some do some don't. A car is as good a place as any to watch a neighborhood. It is mobile and can be set up anywhere and the presence of a car does not draw much attention.

You are at least insinuating here that everyone who is concerned for their safety is going to run away, which is certainly not the case.

If you are truly afraid you are either going to fight or run, not change your mind half way through.

Stilt:
Snip

If you are not going to be directly talking about what I said just snip my post.

I dont get how you cant see the possibility that this was racially motivated, it seems FUCKING OBVIOUS.

It is possible but there is no proof to support it.

They didnt take him to jail, they detained him.

They arrested him and took him to the station which includes a jail.

He did listen to th epolice? Is that why he chased Trayvon? It appears to me that we have differing opinions on the definition of following orders.

Look at the timeline. The time between when Zimmerman shut his truck door and when he acknowledged the operators suggestion was 20 seconds. After words he said he stopped following Martin.

There are only two facts that matter in the end: 1) Zimmerman chased trayvon, 2) zimmerman killed trayvon. Everything else is secondary

Very very wrong.

Stilt:
Let me ask you this, do you not find it outrageous that z was allowed to walk free for more than a month while the police sat on their fat asses doing nothing? They abandoned all normal protocol for this one guy: why?

They didn't. I do not know what country you are from but in the US we have this little thing called the 4th Amendment. It requires that you probable cause before arresting someone. They had probable cause to arrest and detain him but they did not have cause to charge him. It takes time for a case to be put together and unless there is a likelihood of flight or the person is a danger, etc usually the person is let go until a case can be put together.

Tyler Perry:
You are at least insinuating here that everyone who is concerned for their safety is going to run away, which is certainly not the case. That's what YOU are missing/ignoring in your desperate attempt to exonerate George Zimmerman for any wrongdoing.

Funny how Farson supports the right to 'Stand Your Ground' / pre-emptive self defense for Zimmerman but not for Martin.

Martin did not use deadly force against Zimmerman, but Zimmerman can respond with deadly force.

However Martin is not allowed to use any form of force against Zimmerman, despite Martin trying first to run away and being chased to his front door.

Which brings the problem out in Farson's position; Farson HAS to support Zimmerman, otherwise Farson must admit a legal CC firearm was unlawfully used to kill a teenager (and we all know Farson thinks CC firearms are only used to perform miracles by saints on Sundays).

Stilt:

To get off on self defense, you have to prove that you had reason to believe your life was in danger. Even in the state of florida with the comical stand your ground law, Zimmerman has to prove that he believed his life to be in danger. Let me ask you this, do you not find it outrageous that z was allowed to walk free for more than a month while the police sat on their fat asses doing nothing? They abandoned all normal protocol for this one guy: why?

And here again we run into the "secondary" details. I don't find it outrageous based upon what I know, simply because the information I have is incomplete to the point of being useless.

Following the incident, Zimmerman was treated by EMTs, placed in handcuffs, brought to the police station for questioning, and released afterwards.

There are several possible explanations for this sequence of events:
A.) The police investigated thoroughly and found no reason to doubt Zimmerman's story, at least based on initial interviews and evidence recorded on the scene. If this was the case, arresting Zimmerman at that point would actually have been ILLEGAL for them to do. They kind of have to have evidence of a crime to make an official arrest. Normal protocol at this point would be to continue investigating the incident, and arrest Zimmerman if more evidence comes up (wait, that kind of sounds like what just happened, hmm)
B.) Zimmerman was undeniably guilty based on what was found at the crime scene, in spite of this, the police officers in question, plus the medical personnel and any other officials directly involved, all unanimously decided to cover up for Zimmerman, and have maintained that coverup in spite of enormous political and social pressure.
C.) Somewhere in between, it is entirely possible and/or probable that a detail or two was missed or overlooked that day, possibly because the officers in question liked and/or trusted Zimmerman enough to think he wasn't the type to deliberately kill.

I shouldn't have to tell you that B is unlikely, if only because of how difficult it is to keep that many people silent while being scrutinized, the same holds true for more extreme versions of C.

TechNoFear:
Funny how Farson supports the right to 'Stand Your Ground' / pre-emptive self defense for Zimmerman but not for Martin.

Uh in what world do I unequivocally support preemptive self defense? Oh yeah, in Techs world of magic, rainbows, and unicorns.

BTW SYG does not allow does not allow a person to attack simply because you were followed a ways.

Martin did not use deadly force against Zimmerman, but Zimmerman can respond with deadly force.

According to Zimmerman Martin bashed his head into the concrete and the police report supports the idea that he was injured. Do I need to explain how getting your head beaten into concrete is deadly?

However Martin is not allowed to use any form of force against Zimmerman, despite Martin trying first to run away and being chased to his front door.

He did not try to run away, he did, but then turned around and confronted Zimmerman. That by itself destroys any claim of self defense because he had every opportunity to simply go home and made motions to do so but instead confronted Zimmerman. SYG does not allow you to seek trouble.

Which brings the problem out in Farson's position; Farson HAS to support Zimmerman, otherwise Farson must admit a legal CC firearm was unlawfully used to kill a teenager (and we all know Farson thinks CC firearms are only used to perform miracles by saints on Sundays).

I suppose I should not be surprised that you just make up whatever comes into your head. Read through post 916 where I state that quote-" I am still firmly in the Manslaughter category". You fail again.

farson135:

Stilt:
Snip

If you are not going to be directly talking about what I said just snip my post.

I dont get how you cant see the possibility that this was racially motivated, it seems FUCKING OBVIOUS.

It is possible but there is no proof to support it.

They didnt take him to jail, they detained him.

They arrested him and took him to the station which includes a jail.

He did listen to th epolice? Is that why he chased Trayvon? It appears to me that we have differing opinions on the definition of following orders.

Look at the timeline. The time between when Zimmerman shut his truck door and when he acknowledged the operators suggestion was 20 seconds. After words he said he stopped following Martin.

There are only two facts that matter in the end: 1) Zimmerman chased trayvon, 2) zimmerman killed trayvon. Everything else is secondary

Very very wrong.

Stilt:
Let me ask you this, do you not find it outrageous that z was allowed to walk free for more than a month while the police sat on their fat asses doing nothing? They abandoned all normal protocol for this one guy: why?

They didn't. I do not know what country you are from but in the US we have this little thing called the 4th Amendment. It requires that you probable cause before arresting someone. They had probable cause to arrest and detain him but they did not have cause to charge him. It takes time for a case to be put together and unless there is a likelihood of flight or the person is a danger, etc usually the person is let go until a case can be put together.

"According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence - a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison." Theres your probable cause

Stilt:
Theres your probable cause

Um ... that's not probable cause.

Heronblade:

Stilt:

To get off on self defense, you have to prove that you had reason to believe your life was in danger. Even in the state of florida with the comical stand your ground law, Zimmerman has to prove that he believed his life to be in danger. Let me ask you this, do you not find it outrageous that z was allowed to walk free for more than a month while the police sat on their fat asses doing nothing? They abandoned all normal protocol for this one guy: why?

And here again we run into the "secondary" details. I don't find it outrageous based upon what I know, simply because the information I have is incomplete to the point of being useless.

Following the incident, Zimmerman was treated by EMTs, placed in handcuffs, brought to the police station for questioning, and released afterwards.

There are several possible explanations for this sequence of events:
A.) The police investigated thoroughly and found no reason to doubt Zimmerman's story, at least based on initial interviews and evidence recorded on the scene. If this was the case, arresting Zimmerman at that point would actually have been ILLEGAL for them to do. They kind of have to have evidence of a crime to make an official arrest. Normal protocol at this point would be to continue investigating the incident, and arrest Zimmerman if more evidence comes up (wait, that kind of sounds like what just happened, hmm)
B.) Zimmerman was undeniably guilty based on what was found at the crime scene, in spite of this, the police officers in question, plus the medical personnel and any other officials directly involved, all unanimously decided to cover up for Zimmerman, and have maintained that coverup in spite of enormous political and social pressure.
C.) Somewhere in between, it is entirely possible and/or probable that a detail or two was missed or overlooked that day, possibly because the officers in question liked and/or trusted Zimmerman enough to think he wasn't the type to deliberately kill.

I shouldn't have to tell you that B is unlikely, if only because of how difficult it is to keep that many people silent while being scrutinized, the same holds true for more extreme versions of C.

The guys dad is a judge. He was obviouslt given preferential treatment. Also, note that "According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence - a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison." again, probable cause

Tyler Perry:

Stilt:
Theres your probable cause

Um ... that's not probable cause.

well what is it called when you are more likely to have comitted a crime because of your background?

Stilt:
Snip

If you are not going to directly talk about what I say snip my post. We have a lot of international people with slow bandwidth so please be courteous.

"According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence - a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison." Theres your probable cause

One that is not probable cause. Two those charges were dropped. You know they were dropped because a person cannot get a concealed handgun license with a felony. Hell, you cannot even buy a gun without a waiver (depending on the state).

Stilt:

Tyler Perry:

Stilt:
Theres your probable cause

Um ... that's not probable cause.

well what is it called when you are more likely to have comitted a crime because of your background?

I don't know, but definitely not probable cause.

Stilt:

The guys dad is a judge. He was obviouslt given preferential treatment. Also, note that "According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence - a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison." again, probable cause

His dad being a judge only matters if evidence against him was found that night. Him getting preferential treatment likewise is only meaningful if evidence against him was found that night.

The police covering up for Zimmerman because of his dad is only an obvious conclusion if you start from the assumption that Zimmerman was not only guilty, but that the police had reason to believe Zimmerman was guilty right from the start.

Probable cause is a factor that indicates whether or not the person had reason to commit this particular crime. The world's longest and most colorful rap sheet is not direct evidence that a person committed a crime, merely that they are probably not above doing something similar once more. As for the actual charges, I do believe Farson has your answer as to just how relevant they are.

I... What... What is this?!

Holy fuck, you can believe Zimmerman was wrong/right, but at least get your fucking facts in order before you start making a recreation and exploiting a teens death for money.

I'm so mad right now, I'm pissing liquefied rage.

Tyler Perry:

Stilt:

Tyler Perry:

Um ... that's not probable cause.

well what is it called when you are more likely to have comitted a crime because of your background?

I don't know, but definitely not probable cause.

I was thinking of Predisposition, for some reason I thought that probable cause meant factors that made the crime more probably to have been committed, obviously i had it wrong, thanks for pointing that out.

The only way z gets acquitted is if they can prove that he wasnt following T, which seems imposssible considering that T's girlfriend is considered credible. Im glad that justice will be served, because god knows it wouldnt have if it werent for the public outrage

Stilt:
To get off on self defense, you have to prove that you had reason to believe your life was in danger. Even in the state of florida with the comical stand your ground law, Zimmerman has to prove that he believed his life to be in danger. Let me ask you this, do you not find it outrageous that z was allowed to walk free for more than a month while the police sat on their fat asses doing nothing?

Because that's how it works. Not every killing needs to have a trial if it is clear it was in self defense. They didn't do anything because it was clear Zimmerman killed Martin in self defense based on physical evidence.

They didn't care that Zimmerman followed Martin, they didn't sit around and debate about whether the 911 operator gave a legal order. That's what the media cares about. That's what this flimsy case is about now. But back then, connecting the dots was Zimmerman on the ground, with injuries, eyewitness outside during the fight, autopsy showing evidence consistent w/ the story. Case closed.

I don't think I understand the point of having lawful self defense if people insist on dragging everyone into a trial where they are playing with your life like it's a game. They tried to force Zimmerman into a plea bargain because 2nd degree murder if you lose is a doozie. Then if you do get off, there's the civil wrongful death lawsuits that use the trial to show you were 51% liable and make you pay.

What a fucked up country. I think that if you kill someone who violently attacks you, and that part can be proven, you should be left the fuck alone. P.S. Yes even if they are unarmed and you have a gun, tough shit, don't start fights. Not hard to kill a person w/ your bare hands.

Stilt:
"According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence - a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison." Theres your probable cause

And it was an utterly bullshit charge as the altercation was started by an undercover cop who started assaulting his friend without ever identifying himself as an undercover cop, whom Zimmerman then proceeded to grab by the arm. That is the extent of Zimmerman's "violent" record.

Stilt:

The only way z gets acquitted is if they can prove that he wasnt following T, which seems imposssible considering that T's girlfriend is considered credible. Im glad that justice will be served, because god knows it wouldnt have if it werent for the public outrage

Zimmerman could have followed Martin all the way to Albuquerque NM and back, it doesn't matter. Z might at some point be legally in trouble due to stalking Martin had things gone on long enough to continue well outside of the neighborhood, but that has no bearing on the actual fight and/or firing of the gun. (at least assuming that following Martin is all he did, waving the gun around or making verbal threats changes matters)

Since it seems we aren't getting anywhere, and you still seem to think that there's no doubt that Zimmerman is guilty, let me ask you something. The more the public is outraged by these events, the less likely it is that Zimmerman will get a fair trial. Even if he is found innocent, between the people all over the country that want him dead, friends that no longer want anything to do with him, and employers that wouldn't hire him if their business depended on it, his life is largely over anyways. Public outrage has condemned this man to a poor fate regardless of the truth. What if you are wrong?

As a proponent of the death penalty, I hear that question quite often. My answer is generally that it only applies to individuals where incontrovertible proof of guilt is found, and even having that much footing doesn't help with all cases. You have absolutely no direct proof to back up your conclusion that this man is a murderer, and yet you and others like you choose to pronounce him guilty right off the bat, to a fate I am quite willing to compare to death (and quite possibly will end in his death). Why?

ravenshrike:

Stilt:
"According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence - a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison." Theres your probable cause

And it was an utterly bullshit charge as the altercation was started by an undercover cop who started assaulting his friend without ever identifying himself as an undercover cop, whom Zimmerman then proceeded to grab by the arm. That is the extent of Zimmerman's "violent" record.

I wasn't aware of what the charges were, but i dont know if cops usually look that far into your past offenses with very much scrutiny if you were black, say, in Sanford county. You think if a black person had killed a white man and claim self defense? The guy would be in jail for a good while before they bothered to do a trial. Look at whats happening to poor immigrants, LEGAL immigrants that are locked up for months and months at a time for crimes they havent committed and are confused because of the language barrier, and when for example arizonas dysfunctional system finally sorts it after theyve been sitting in jail for sometimes years, their lives are severely affected.

The point is, Florida is known for its racism, I don't think even you'd argue against that

farson135:

evilneko:
I may disagree with farson that Zim's innocent, but he's right on one thing: the evidence that we the public have is not really conclusive. Far from the slam dunk you're portraying it as.

STOP. In no way shape or form did I declare Zimmerman innocent. I may have moved off of Murder 2 but I am still firmly in the Manslaughter category. I just disagree with these guys on how culpable Martin is in what happened. They want to portray Martin as innocent but the fact is that even if he did not attack Zimmerman he still holds a significant part in the way the entire incident went down.

Oh? Sorry, I totally misjudged your position then.

Stilt:
I wasn't aware of what the charges were, but i dont know if cops usually look that far into your past offenses with very much scrutiny if you were black, say, in Sanford county. You think if a black person had killed a white man and claim self defense? The guy would be in jail for a good while before they bothered to do a trial. Look at whats happening to poor immigrants, LEGAL immigrants that are locked up for months and months at a time for crimes they havent committed and are confused because of the language barrier, and when for example arizonas dysfunctional system finally sorts it after theyve been sitting in jail for sometimes years, their lives are severely affected.

The point is, Florida is known for its racism, I don't think even you'd argue against that

And?

Do you have any proof whatsoever that Zimmerman himself was a racist? Much less proof that he let racial hatred influence his actions?

If not, then it doesn't matter in regards to whether or not Zimmerman is guilty of the accusations. You cannot condemn one man for the problems of a bureaucracy, stay focused.

Heronblade:
Zimmerman could have followed Martin all the way to Albuquerque NM and back, it doesn't matter. Z might at some point be legally in trouble due to stalking Martin had things gone on long enough to continue well outside of the neighborhood, but that has no bearing on the actual fight and/or firing of the gun. (at least assuming that following Martin is all he did, waving the gun around or making verbal threats changes matters)

Since it seems we aren't getting anywhere, and you still seem to think that there's no doubt that Zimmerman is guilty, let me ask you something. The more the public is outraged by these events, the less likely it is that Zimmerman will get a fair trial. Even if he is found innocent, between the people all over the country that want him dead, friends that no longer want anything to do with him, and employers that wouldn't hire him if their business depended on it, his life is largely over anyways. Public outrage has condemned this man to a poor fate regardless of the truth. What if you are wrong?

As a proponent of the death penalty, I hear that question quite often. My answer is generally that it only applies to individuals where incontrovertible proof of guilt is found, and even having that much footing doesn't help with all cases. You have absolutely no direct proof to back up your conviction that this man is a murderer, and yet you and others like you choose to pronounce him guilty right off the bat, to a fate I am quite willing to compare to death (and quite possibly will end in his death). Why?

Im not a proponent of the death penalty, I think it is absolutely retarded to kill people in a justice system that is corruptible which ours has proven that it is. Do you know how many people went from death row to being back on the street getting their lives back? Too many to think that a death penalty is ever warranted. I'm a believer that it's better to let 10 guilty men go free to spare an innocent one, but I have to say in this case its pretty obvious. Why is this lunatic carrying a concealed gun around? He appointed himself "watchdog" of the community in which he doesnt even live, oh wow coooool what is he doing with a gun prowling around? The man has some very obvious mental issues, i mean who the fuck carries a gun around? The guy is not a cop, and even cops arent just supposed to keep their gun with them off duty. The man is a head case, I dont see how this is debateable

p.s. carrying a concealed gun should be probable cause, i dont get why its not

Heronblade:
And?

Do you have any proof whatsoever that Zimmerman himself was a racist? Much less proof that he let racial hatred influence his actions?

If not, then it doesn't matter in regards to whether or not Zimmerman is guilty of the accusations. You cannot condemn one man for the problems of a bureaucracy, stay focused.

Racial hatred or not HE KILLED A BOY. Also, I have all the evidence I need to know that sanford polic dept is one of the most racist pds in america, and boy is that list long

Stilt:
Racial hatred or not HE KILLED A BOY. Also, I have all the evidence I need to know that sanford polic dept is one of the most racist pds in america, and boy is that list long

[CITATION NEEDED]

Stilt:
The man has some very obvious mental issues, i mean who the fuck carries a gun around?

Me and several million other Americans as well as unknown numbers of people all over the world.

The guy is not a cop, and even cops arent just supposed to keep their gun with them off duty.

WRONG. In fact in many departments it is REQUIRED for off duty LEOs to carry. Hell, many of them carry two guns.

Stilt:
Also, I have all the evidence I need to know that sanford polic dept is one of the most racist pds in america, and boy is that list long

Citation please.

farson135:

Stilt:
The man has some very obvious mental issues, i mean who the fuck carries a gun around?

Me and several million other Americans as well as unknown numbers of people all over the world.

The guy is not a cop, and even cops arent just supposed to keep their gun with them off duty.

WRONG. In fact in many departments it is REQUIRED for off duty LEOs to carry. Hell, many of them carry two guns.

Stilt:
Also, I have all the evidence I need to know that sanford polic dept is one of the most racist pds in america, and boy is that list long

Citation please.

Here's my citation, if you cant see how cops give blacks a harder time in the south (to say the very least), then you never will, you will never let yourself see that.

And if you carry a concealed handgun with you everywhere you go, and its not in your job to do so (arguably), then you have mental problems full stop

edit: For the record Ill be honest and say that I am having fun with this debate, Im glad that people who dont agree with me exist. Very therapeutic trying to convince someone of shit

Stilt:
Here's my citation, if you cant see how cops give blacks a harder time in the south.

[CITATION NEEDED]

And if you carry a concealed handgun with you everywhere you go, and its not in your job to do so (arguably), then you have mental problems full stop.

It's their personal decision to carry to protect themselves and their families while out and about. If someone chooses to carry for their protection, deal with it.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 . . . 43 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked