On the European right wing, and why we are facing a massive problem here in regards to immigration.

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I just finished reading a thread that got me thinking. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.364445-European-right-wing-politics-is-it-like-US-right-wing-politics) A skype call and a good discussion later I decided to make a thread and share my thoughts about this, from a European perspective.

So, lets keep this shortish, I dont want to waste too much of your time: we have a massive problem in Germany. A MASSIVE one.

The quick history: we needed workers, so we invited over a lot of turks. Unfortunately no one thought it would be a good idea to integrate them properly, so what we have now is 3 entire generations that grew up in Turkish towns that are German only in geographic terms. Turkish shops, nothing but Turkish neighbors, Islam everywhere, schools that dont even bother teaching proper math or German, you get the idea. We have something like 2 million people here that were born in Germany but dont speak the language. The unemployment rate in 18-25 year olds that come from a Turkish background is a staggering 50%.

Needless to say, these people feel backed into a corner. You see, recently a politician released a rather controversial book and spawned a shitstorm. Suddenly integration is all over the news, and people are blaming Turks for not integrating themselves properly. Half the people are calling for them to drop Islam. They feel like they cant live the way they want to anymore, and obviously this spawns a hostile attitude for Germans.

On the other side, its become racist to like Germany. Speak like an "old" person? Nazi! Like German traditions? Racist! Cheering for the national side in any sports event? Burn the fascist!

I said I would cut this short so I will just skip to the point: we are backing both sides into a corner, and we all know how people act when they are backed into a corner. The attitude we are showing toward both immigrants and natives in Germany and Europe as a whole is doing nothing but pushing both sides into extremism. For a few years now, the situation has been slowly building up, and I have a feeling its going to blow up in 5 years. Not with a small bang either. Hate crime is steadily rising, I wonder how long it will be before it reaches critical levels.

So I ask you Escapists; what do you think of this? How would you handle the situation? Or do you disagree entirely and think there is no problem at all?

By the way: heres a rather interesting video from another thread:

The OP put it really nicely. These people seem like frightened animals, not legitimate racists.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

So I ask you Escapists; what do you think of this? How would you handle the situation? Or do you disagree entirely and think there is no problem at all?

Glad you liked my post.

Funny you should bring up Turkish people in Germany because when I was in class recently, one of the students talked about his time stationed in Germany as a US soldier and how much he hated it. The reason he hated it was not because the Germany people were treating him bad, but because he was stationed near a Turkish town and when ever he went by there, they would make racist comments to him and call him a racist(the guy has blonde hair and blue eyes). He said that Turkish people were a real problem for him and the rest of his squad.

Also, my moms family is from Germany and she said that when she visited Germany(back when she was about 10) she said that the Turkish people were causing problems there.

To rap things up, yeah Germany has a big problem on its hands. It reminds me of the Roma people that my Greek and Serbian friends tell me about.

Volf:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

So I ask you Escapists; what do you think of this? How would you handle the situation? Or do you disagree entirely and think there is no problem at all?

Glad you liked my post.

Funny you should bring up Turkish people in Germany because when I was in class recently, one of the students talked about his time stationed in Germany as a US soldier and how much he hated it. The reason he hated it was not because the Germany people were treating him bad, but because he was stationed near a Turkish town and when ever he went by there, they would make racist comments to him and call him a racist(the guy has blonde hair and blue eyes). He said that Turkish people were a real problem for him and the rest of his squad.

Also, my moms family is from Germany and she said that when she visited Germany(back when she was about 10) she said that the Turkish people were causing problems there.

To rap things up, yeah Germany has a big problem on its hands. It reminds me of the Roma people that my Greek and Serbian friends tell me about.

Kinda goes into the same thing I mentioned in the OP: again, the media is building up two sides. A lot of people have the impression turks being violent racists is this really really common thing when its not that bad. Yet.

It just half the news papers jump on stories like some turks beating up a German at a train station (which is probably why your moms family thinks they are causing such massive problems) and the other half of them just call everyone living in Germany a nazi.

Dont get me wrong, the problems are there, and growing ones, but of course the media blows everything up and makes it all worse. Because people read turks beat up a German, Germans get pissed and tell turks to fuck off. So the media jump on that and say "Look, how many nazis we have, they are telling turks to fuck off", etc. Due to that the turks get pissed and beat up a few Germans. So then the media jumps on that and...

See what I mean? It just goes back and forth... Terrible.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
clever post

hmmm...I didn't think about it like that, but it makes sense.

Can't speak about Germany since I've never been there, but there does seem to be a similar situation in the UK with those of Pakistani origin rather than Turks.

Lots of short sightedness with low paid worker immigration throughout Europe tbh, even the French seem to be kicking off about it.

Damn. Interesting stuff, I got to say. Suddenly, I understand Blablahb and Danyal just a little bit better....

Anyway... Sounds messed up. How would I handle the situation? Unsure. Obviously, the Turkish immigrants need to integrate with German culture as a whole, but not so much as to destroy their current culture. But how? Hm. How about... making it mandatory that every school in Germany teach German to those children who cannot speak the language? Don't stop them from speaking their native language in school though, if they want. Maybe have bilingual classes where the teachers teach Turkish children German? Honestly, I do not envy the decisions you will have to make. :/

I never realized it was this big of a problem. Europe may be Europe, but there are individual countries and cultures within Europe that make up Europe. You take away those countries and you're left with a cultural wasteland. You take away the cultures, then there is no reason in having a country.

Sounds a bit like Germany is going through what the Netherlands went through late 90's early 2000's. Before that it was also forbidden to criticise immigration, integration or immigrants in any shape or form, and that lead to a ton of problems.

But if I learned one thing from the hostilities between ethnic groups back&forth, it's that denying the problem and especially trying to silence whites only makes it worse in the long run.

Unsurprising, ever since integration became a bigger issue, the problems have been decreasing in many places. Still, I live in a place where last year alone 23 homosexual couples were forced to move by Moroccan street gangs who control entire neighbourhoods, and a spineless socialist mayor who goes 'Oh I'm shocked' after each case, and does absolutely nothing about it.

However, all in all, the hard stance on integration is really paying off, with lower rates of culture related problems and crimes (murders for family honour among Turks for instance), fewer integration problems, and less of a rate of immigrant kids falling behind or dropping out of school, etc.

I did notice when in Leipzig a few years ago that there was a sense of hostility and a sharp divide between ethnic groups. Many people in those neighbourhoods, ussually older people 'wir sind die Ausländer', meaning they'd become foreigners in their own land.

And if it stands out clearly to a visitor trained in city observation, I can only imagine what it's like living there.


If Germany wants to tackle that, a good first place to start is making speaking German compulsory. Analyse what you have in terms of non-western immigrants (because western immigrants typically integrate decently by themselves) and bring in a program for language tests. Bring in pennalties for failure or non-participation in the form of ceasing any and all state benefits and subsidies to people who fail the test (by which you also hit mostly the problematic cases) and a pretty good increase in language skill should be apparent.

A new scheme being tried here is to test the language skill of primary schoolers, and if it lacks behind, make the parents pay for extra language lessons at the penalty of a fine for non-compliance. Because lack of language skill (sometimes even just in a limited vocabulary) is the leading cause of immigrant kids falling behind at school.

Basically it all starts with language.

BreakfastMan:
Damn. Interesting stuff, I got to say. Suddenly, I understand Blabahb and Danyal just a little bit better....

Anyway... Sounds messed up. How would I handle the situation? Unsure. Obviously, the Turkish immigrants need to integrate with German culture as a whole, but not so much as to destroy their current culture. But how? Hm. How about... making it mandatory that every school in Germany teach German to those children who cannot speak the language? Don't stop them from speaking their native language in school though, if they want. Maybe have bilingual classes where the teachers teach Turkish children German? Honestly, I do not envy the decisions you will have to make. :/

Why should Germany make bilingual classes? The Turkish immigrants choose to come to Germany, why should they not be forced to learn the language and be taught in the same class as everybody else? It isn't like Tibet, where China took over Tibetan land and are now forcing them to loose their language.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

The quick history: we needed workers, so we invited over a lot of turks. Unfortunately no one thought it would be a good idea to integrate them properly, so what we have now is 3 entire generations that grew up in Turkish towns that are German only in geographic terms. Turkish shops, nothing but Turkish neighbors, Islam everywhere, schools that dont even bother teaching proper math or German, you get the idea.

This is a predictable result of feel-good leftist policies of multiculturalism. First they allow too many people from a dissimilar culture to immigrate. Then they encourage them to live just like they did in the old country without having to integrate.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

So I ask you Escapists; what do you think of this? How would you handle the situation? Or do you disagree entirely and think there is no problem at all?

First stop providing government services to them in their old countries language. Also make German mandatory in public schools. They'll pick it up if it becomes necessary to do so. In the early 20th century U.S. there were many immigrants from Europe who didn't speak english. They managed to learn English and integrate without the government catering to them in their own language. Learning the national language is key to integration. The other option is to continue a destructive balkanization while congratulating yourself for loving multiculturalism.

Volf:

BreakfastMan:
Damn. Interesting stuff, I got to say. Suddenly, I understand Blabahb and Danyal just a little bit better....

Anyway... Sounds messed up. How would I handle the situation? Unsure. Obviously, the Turkish immigrants need to integrate with German culture as a whole, but not so much as to destroy their current culture. But how? Hm. How about... making it mandatory that every school in Germany teach German to those children who cannot speak the language? Don't stop them from speaking their native language in school though, if they want. Maybe have bilingual classes where the teachers teach Turkish children German? Honestly, I do not envy the decisions you will have to make. :/

Why should Germany make bilingual classes? The Turkish immigrants choose to come to Germany, why should they not be forced to learn the language and be taught in the same class as everybody else? It isn't like Tibet, where China took over Tibetan land and are now forcing them to loose their language.

Well, the thought process goes, people who want to learn another language will learn that language better if they are taught by someone who understands both languages perfectly. The bilingual classes would better help them to learn the language, without building up resentment in the community. At least, that is what I thought...

BreakfastMan:

Volf:

BreakfastMan:
Damn. Interesting stuff, I got to say. Suddenly, I understand Blabahb and Danyal just a little bit better....

Anyway... Sounds messed up. How would I handle the situation? Unsure. Obviously, the Turkish immigrants need to integrate with German culture as a whole, but not so much as to destroy their current culture. But how? Hm. How about... making it mandatory that every school in Germany teach German to those children who cannot speak the language? Don't stop them from speaking their native language in school though, if they want. Maybe have bilingual classes where the teachers teach Turkish children German? Honestly, I do not envy the decisions you will have to make. :/

Why should Germany make bilingual classes? The Turkish immigrants choose to come to Germany, why should they not be forced to learn the language and be taught in the same class as everybody else? It isn't like Tibet, where China took over Tibetan land and are now forcing them to loose their language.

Well, the thought process goes, people who want to learn another language will learn that language better if they are taught by someone who understands both languages perfectly. The bilingual classes would better help them to learn the language, without building up resentment in the community. At least, that is what I thought...

America tried that with simple Spanish. It failed. Hard. All it did was create ghettos where the murder rates go above 20 murders every 5 years. Keep in mind I am citing one of the smallest ghettos.

BreakfastMan:

Volf:

BreakfastMan:
Damn. Interesting stuff, I got to say. Suddenly, I understand Blabahb and Danyal just a little bit better....

Anyway... Sounds messed up. How would I handle the situation? Unsure. Obviously, the Turkish immigrants need to integrate with German culture as a whole, but not so much as to destroy their current culture. But how? Hm. How about... making it mandatory that every school in Germany teach German to those children who cannot speak the language? Don't stop them from speaking their native language in school though, if they want. Maybe have bilingual classes where the teachers teach Turkish children German? Honestly, I do not envy the decisions you will have to make. :/

Why should Germany make bilingual classes? The Turkish immigrants choose to come to Germany, why should they not be forced to learn the language and be taught in the same class as everybody else? It isn't like Tibet, where China took over Tibetan land and are now forcing them to loose their language.

Well, the thought process goes, people who want to learn another language will learn that language better if they are taught by someone who understands both languages perfectly. The bilingual classes would better help them to learn the language, without building up resentment in the community. At least, that is what I thought...

That's fine as long as that is the only bilingual classes that are there. However if they start teaching math, science, and history in German, than I would think that that is going to far.

Ultratwinkie:

BreakfastMan:

Volf:
Why should Germany make bilingual classes? The Turkish immigrants choose to come to Germany, why should they not be forced to learn the language and be taught in the same class as everybody else? It isn't like Tibet, where China took over Tibetan land and are now forcing them to loose their language.

Well, the thought process goes, people who want to learn another language will learn that language better if they are taught by someone who understands both languages perfectly. The bilingual classes would better help them to learn the language, without building up resentment in the community. At least, that is what I thought...

America tried that with simple Spanish. It failed. Hard. All it did was create ghettos where the murder rates go above 20 murders every 5 years. Keep in mind I am citing one of the smallest ghettos.

Well, probably don't listen to me then, since I obviously know nothing about what I am talking about... <.< >.>

Also, really? That much? Holy crap...

BreakfastMan:

Ultratwinkie:

BreakfastMan:

Well, the thought process goes, people who want to learn another language will learn that language better if they are taught by someone who understands both languages perfectly. The bilingual classes would better help them to learn the language, without building up resentment in the community. At least, that is what I thought...

America tried that with simple Spanish. It failed. Hard. All it did was create ghettos where the murder rates go above 20 murders every 5 years. Keep in mind I am citing one of the smallest ghettos.

Well, probably don't listen to me then, since I obviously know nothing about what I am talking about... <.< >.>

Also, really? That much? Holy crap...

Its actually one of the smaller ghettos. Specifically, 47 murders since 2007.

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/neighborhood/pacoima/

Here is my source if you want to take a look. The bilingual classes just make everything slower and less efficient. That's just a Hispanic ghetto. Here is another ghetto (not sure of demographics though):

http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/neighborhood/boyle-heights/

The problem is not necessarily "immigration", the main cultural problem is that Europeans have no culture/identity that spellbinds them. And they mistakenly believe that there used to be a national identity that has, somehow, been "lost" or that is being "threatened" by outsiders.

The stories that Moroccan "street gangs" (they're technically Dutch) have been "terrorizing" homosexual couples is true, but such statements imply that before all was well and dandy for homosexuals. Homophobia/homohatred is of all times, as are all the social problems we currently have.

The story that 'The Left' ruined everything is also a myth. At least in the Netherlands the right/conservatives have always been at the center of power.

Integration is a process that takes decades, if not century. A 100 years ago the integration of the jews in the Netherlands was just more-or-less succesfull. They've lived in the Netherlands since the mid 16th century. It took them four centuries to move out of forced segregation, to break through barriers of institutionialized discrimination, escape poverty and to move up the social ladder.

I'm not an apologist for integration/multiculturalism, but I'm too sensitive to think in easily distinguished "problems". Social problems are always complex, and there is also a historical context.

Thank you for giving this a look that is both-sided. When I first read your OP, I felt a bit uncomfortable, but reading a bit more into the thread, I realise the actual content of it as well as the point of the thread.

All in all, I agree with you. Tensions between Germans and immigrants are rising unfortunately, Neo-Nazism is increasing, especially in the East but also in the West and the media love to jump onto it for ratings and sales without concern for the result. Well integrated Turks and other immigrants are then often overlooked, which is not only unfortunate but extremely unfair (considering the number of Turks I went to high school with, I think I have a bit of insight into how well integrated immigrants can do in the proper environment).
It's often a problem of ghettoism where immigrants are shoved to the sidelines to remain in their own communities with few to no chances of integrating. At the same time, there are some immigrants that decidedly want to form their own enclaves without external interaction. Both are problematic, both need fixing if integration is to be achieved. This has nothing to do with "the left", as rightists would like to claim. This is about excluding people that are living in the same country.

We have the same problem in Sweden. It isn't as much with actual immigration, that has fairly reasonable rules, you basically have to have a reason to be here or bust. The problem is with us accepting refugee´s all up the ass. And I suppose one problem with normal immigration is the refugés spouses and children will come through family immigration.

Most of these are not rocket scientists, and we have absolutely zero demand for uneducated labor. We import buttloads of people every year from widely different cultures and drop directly into the social security web. I think during the lybian revolution we estimated something along the lines 6000 refugés coming to Europe, 3000 of these would come to Sweden. Which means 50% of the all of the EU's (a state consisting of 500 million citizens) refugé quota would fall upon a country of 9 million people. I don't know if that is how it usually is but you can guess how crazy the situation is from those numbers.

I would get it if we had some sort of huge deficit in manual labor, if we were all snobs too educated and too fancy to do the menial tasks that spin the cogwheels of the nation. And that we would have to take the culture clashes and the increase in crime because of this. But we don't, we have thousands of people just jumping at the opportunity to wipe some old dude´s ass for minimun wage because it is a job and as it is those are hard to come by.

And of course the people in power won't recognise the problem. If you try to bring it up it quickly devolves into them trying to make you seem like a nazi and you having to defend yourself and nobody gets anywhere. In interviews where the question is brought up they just spew some contrived one-liner. My favorite are the ones that they've ripped off from american liberals, like how immigrants built this country. Which just makes no sense unless you're talking a prevoious colonial nation.

Or you get politicians talking about how this all feels like the 1930's all over again. Because that's just what the nazis where really all about. Wanting lower immigration levels.
It's even funnier because just recently our third biggest city´s mayor brushed off their jewish communities complaints of degradation in their living standards due to religious persecution (from muslims) as them having been infiltrated by the nationalist party.

Volf:

To rap things up, yeah Germany has a big problem on its hands. It reminds me of the Roma people that my Greek and Serbian friends tell me about.

The Roma people are a problem because Eastern Europe made it a problem. For crying out loud, we treat them the same way the US treated blacks in the 1920's.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
By the way: heres a rather interesting video from another thread:

The OP put it really nicely. These people seem like frightened animals, not legitimate racists.

That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, as you will know better than most give your nation's history; most German's during the rise of Hitler were not bad people, just scared people. That fear enabled one of the most grotesque atrocities in human history, as well as our most comprehensive global war yet.

You are right that it isn't productive to call anyone who wants to discuss immigration reform or integration of ethnic communities a racist, but by the same token those who wish to discuss such things openly shouldn't use the sort of scaremongering and borderline-racist terminology designed precisely to stoke that fear in people.

Immigration reform and integration are subjects worth discussing, but they have been used as a trojan horse by racists in the past, used as a way to shield their more abhorrent beliefs from critique, and the right must be willing to set those elements aside rather than ally with them out of convenience as is so common.

Thanks to everyone who replied, very interesting stuff.

Atrocious Joystick:
Or you get politicians talking about how this all feels like the 1930's all over again. Because that's just what the nazis where really all about. Wanting lower immigration levels..

Its interesting you should mention the Nazis and their party, because I can see us wandering in that direction again. If we dont think of something fast the only "solution" (not really solution at all, but you know what I mean) people will have left is to straight out throw people from a Turkish background out.

Which is what makes this whole thing so frustrating - the entire country is guilt tripped about Hitler every day of the year, but when it comes to making sure nothing resembling that happens again, politicians sit on their hands and do nothing. Their idea of halting extremism is to hang up a few posters in town reading "All is well, we all live happily together, please dont vote for any far left or far right parties, thank you, fuck off". Thats it.

In schools its covered this way - teacher says nazis are bad because lol they are, dont let it happen again, we should all feel terrible.

I mentioned that some of these people from Turkish backgrounds cant even count properly - I went to a school in one of those parts of town for half a year and it was shocking - but the schools teaching German kids from wealthy backgrounds are just as bad. They can count but half of them blindly hate immigrants while the other blindly hate Germany.

Like most problems, im starting to think this whole problem begins with education, or rather with a lack of it.

Skeleon:
It's often a problem of ghettoism where immigrants are shoved to the sidelines to remain in their own communities with few to no chances of integrating. At the same time, there are some immigrants that decidedly want to form their own enclaves without external interaction. Both are problematic, both need fixing if integration is to be achieved. This has nothing to do with "the left", as rightists would like to claim. This is about excluding people that are living in the same country.

Yeah, not putting them all in one part of town would do a lot for integration. I actually live about 15 minutes away from the Turkish part of town over here and I have a few friends there. Every time one of them gets a scholarship or whatever and moves out of their parents flat, they get put in a flat in that part of town again. Not because they want to be there, but because the town wants to keep all people with different skin color bunched together.

Then of course they turn around and wonder why those people speak bad German and what not. Its rather ridiculous really.

Magichead:
That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, as you will know better than most give your nation's history; most German's during the rise of Hitler were not bad people, just scared people. That fear enabled one of the most grotesque atrocities in human history, as well as our most comprehensive global war yet.

You are right that it isn't productive to call anyone who wants to discuss immigration reform or integration of ethnic communities a racist, but by the same token those who wish to discuss such things openly shouldn't use the sort of scaremongering and borderline-racist terminology designed precisely to stoke that fear in people.

Immigration reform and integration are subjects worth discussing, but they have been used as a trojan horse by racists in the past, used as a way to shield their more abhorrent beliefs from critique, and the right must be willing to set those elements aside rather than ally with them out of convenience as is so common.

Well, the point I was trying to make was actually that them being forced into a corner makes them more dangerous. People who are scared do the most despicable things.

As for shielding my more abhorrent beliefs, I dont know if I have any. I dont think German lives are worth more than Turkish ones, I dont believe we should just push them over the border.

Its true though, the NPD does use this whole topic as a way to win over new voters. The problem is the NPD is the only one really talking about this properly. Of course I dont agree with them, but they are the only party that is really saying we need to do something, and since no other party is doing that, anyone who sees the problem we have in Germany votes for the NPD.

Atrocious Joystick:

Or you get politicians talking about how this all feels like the 1930's all over again. Because that's just what the nazis where really all about. Wanting lower immigration levels.
It's even funnier because just recently our third biggest city´s mayor brushed off their jewish communities complaints of degradation in their living standards due to religious persecution (from muslims) as them having been infiltrated by the nationalist party.

Aye, and I think that's one of the most frustrating facets to the whole mess. There are indeed Nazis in Sweden, and Breivik have demonstrated very well that they are exceptionally dangerous, too. However, the current immigration system is an utter failure, and pointing that out and demanding a revision of it does not make anyone a Nazi.
I think it's, as usual, a question of political prestige. None of the established parties wants to really deal with it, as to them, it'd be the same as admitting fault.

Now, the main crux, I think, is that many groups that do want to change the immigration policy and break the vicious circle all have some unpleasant extras in their luggage. If Sverigedemokraterna, for instance, only had the immigration revisions on their program, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with them. The problem I have is all the conservative nonsense that they include. I want the immigration policy to be reformed. I don't want the Church of Sweden to be reinstated as the state church, I don't want a public register over convicted paedophiles, I don't want same-sex marriages to be abolished, et cetera. Of course, this does -not- make them Nazis, not in the slightest. But it's certainly nothing I'd want to promote with my vote.

And it seems to me, the more right you go from this point, the more radical-conservative nonsense you get dogpiled under, until you get to groups that actually -could- be classified as neo-nazis. The problem is, there just isn't, in my mind, any reasonable alternative. There's no real option for me and other people who'd like the immigration policy to be reformed before things reach critical mass, but don't want to vote for a movement hankering back to a nostalgic vision of the 50's, thank you very much.

But still, it's better to reserve all the shouting and screaming about Nazism to groups that actually deserve it, like Svenskarnas Parti. Now, with a bit of luck, perhaps the relative success of SD might crack through the parliament's ivory tower, and we'll get more alternatives. The immigration policy must be mended, but I'd rather choose someone else to do it.

The same idea is starting to grow here in the Netherlands.
We too "imported" workers from Turkey and other places.
Now the economy is down and the natives aren't too proud to work in the farm fields or garbage truck duty themselves, all of a sudden the Turks have to go, because they're "lazy and just cash welfare checks, cause trouble and refuse to speak Dutch"

While I know this might be the case for some, clearly not ALL turkish people are like this.

And sadly it's not at all uncommon to blame all non-native Dutch (like there even is such a thing) as terrible criminals because minorities rob stores or cause violence yet, no one blames the Native Dutch as a whole when they arrested the n-th Child porn supplier.

Especially now with the hate and fear of radical Islam spreading through the western world.
Suddenly everyone remotely Turkish is also a radical Extremist waiting to happen.

Though, hypocrite as they are, the Turkish food establishments are still booming, and, if personal observation is anything to go by, do better business then the local snack-bars.

Spinozaad:
The problem is not necessarily "immigration", the main cultural problem is that Europeans have no culture/identity that spellbinds them. And they mistakenly believe that there used to be a national identity that has, somehow, been "lost" or that is being "threatened" by outsiders.

The stories that Moroccan "street gangs" (they're technically Dutch) have been "terrorizing" homosexual couples is true, but such statements imply that before all was well and dandy for homosexuals. Homophobia/homohatred is of all times, as are all the social problems we currently have.

The story that 'The Left' ruined everything is also a myth. At least in the Netherlands the right/conservatives have always been at the center of power.

Integration is a process that takes decades, if not century. A 100 years ago the integration of the jews in the Netherlands was just more-or-less succesfull. They've lived in the Netherlands since the mid 16th century. It took them four centuries to move out of forced segregation, to break through barriers of institutionialized discrimination, escape poverty and to move up the social ladder.

I'm not an apologist for integration/multiculturalism, but I'm too sensitive to think in easily distinguished "problems". Social problems are always complex, and there is also a historical context.

This is one of the most clear sighted and concise posts I've seen on the matter of the European right wing. Kudos for that.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:

To rap things up, yeah Germany has a big problem on its hands. It reminds me of the Roma people that my Greek and Serbian friends tell me about.

The Roma people are a problem because Eastern Europe made it a problem. For crying out loud, we treat them the same way the US treated blacks in the 1920's.

The Roma are not without blame for their situations. Its foolish to think that their entire situation is the fault of Europeans.

Volf:

The Roma are not without blame for their situations. Its foolish to think that their entire situation is the fault of Europeans.

Yes, because the institutionalized racism present in Eastern Europe is totally their fault.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:

The Roma are not without blame for their situations. Its foolish to think that their entire situation is the fault of Europeans.

Yes, because the institutionalized racism present in Eastern Europe is totally their fault.

Institutionalized racism didn't stop my Jewish family or other Jewish families from having jobs and businesses in Eastern Europe, so I see no reason why Roma people should be without any responsibility for their actions.

Volf:

Institutionalized racism didn't stop my Jewish family or other Jewish families from having jobs and businesses in Eastern Europe, so I see no reason why Roma people should be without any responsibility for their actions.

Are you really that fucking clueless about what's happening to the Roma people or do you find yourself weeping at the possibility that maybe it's not as simple as you make it out to be? You're talking out of your ass and you know it.

Magichead:
You are right that it isn't productive to call anyone who wants to discuss immigration reform or integration of ethnic communities a racist, but by the same token those who wish to discuss such things openly shouldn't use the sort of scaremongering and borderline-racist terminology designed precisely to stoke that fear in people.

But they don't start doing that untill they feel supressed, in this context by political correctness which brands everyone who opts to make integration less optional a racist. I've literally heard political debates in the 90's where people went "But that's neocolonialism!!" if someone suggested children should learn Dutch so they don't fail at school and end up at the bottom rung of society.

If integration problems are tackled, xenophobes will never be able to gain ground at all, because nobody will believe them. If you hear such guys go, neonazis and such, most of what they say is about whites being suppressed and excluded. Strip them of cases on which they base those claims, and you strip them of any recruiting power.

PercyBoleyn:
The Roma people are a problem because Eastern Europe made it a problem. For crying out loud, we treat them the same way the US treated blacks in the 1920's.

Not sending their children to school, marrying off daughters at age 12, teaching boys they own the world and that all non-gypsies are inferior and that work is a dirty word might also have something to do with it.

They set the stages for their own marginalised position because of their cultural and religious traditions.


And then they add a ton of negative imaging to that;
The nearest town with a signicant group of Roma (Nieuwegein) has a special Roma taskforce in their police force. And let me tell you, Nieuwegein is a boring place. An old quiet village of pensioners and a lot of new urban expansion with young families, basically a commuter town of the larger city Utrecht, where nothing ever happens. Yet the police there need a special squad...
One thing from there made national headlines even. A restaurant over there had at one point thrown out a gypsy for being agressive to other customers, and was then confronted with a months long campaign of terror by Roma, and the police either being unwilling or unable to do anything about it. In the end, the restaurant went bankrupt because of it's unsafe reputation and the costs from gypsie vandalism.

Actually, aside from children and women being sent off as beggars (probably while the men hang around, drink, smoke and not be very usefull) the only thing I ever got from gypsies was a murder. Some guy living in a mobile home camp with some gypsies had complained about loud music in the night. So they decided it would be fun to ambush him with steel pipes, and they murdered him in front of his 7 year old son. I read that in the local newspaper, and through mutual friends had met the son once or twice a few years later too.

All you ever hear from that community itself in the media is whining about how supposedly all negatives that you hear are untrue, and how terrible it is they don't get enough chances and how they're being discriminated. In short: about how they as a community deny any sense of responsibility and deny having any will to improve.

Guess how that impacts public opinion in the long run eh?

The negative views of Roma and other gypsie groups is little more than a consequence of the choices that community made about itself.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:

Institutionalized racism didn't stop my Jewish family or other Jewish families from having jobs and businesses in Eastern Europe, so I see no reason why Roma people should be without any responsibility for their actions.

Are you really that fucking clueless about what's happening to the Roma people or do you find yourself weeping at the possibility that maybe it's not as simple as you make it out to be? You're talking out of your ass and you know it.

You realize that Jews faced the same "warmth" from East Europeans that Roma did right? Or did you not know that they blamed Jews for eating their children and poisoning their wells? The only one that is talking out their ass is you by failing to realize that the Roma people have not been the only people at the short end of the stick(see:Jews) and that other people(see:Jews) have still made a life for themselves despite how they were treated.

PercyBoleyn:

And because in your little story the Jews managed to "make a life for themselves" that means we should not recognize the numerous issues the Roma people face and just leave them be, because that has worked wonderfully for the past five hundred fucking years.

Strawman, never said that people shouldn't help the Roma people, just that they are not without blame for their situation.

PercyBoleyn:
snip

You think I'm making up what people used to blame Jews for? Get serious.

Volf:

Strawman, never said that people shouldn't help the Roma people, just that they are not without blame for their situation.

Funny you should mention strawmans. Anyways, I bet black people were to blame for their situation as well. So were the Jews.

Volf:
You think I'm making up what people used to blame Jews for? Get serious.

Did you know they're making shit up about the Roma people as well? I bet you didn't.

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