On the European right wing, and why we are facing a massive problem here in regards to immigration.

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Agema:

predatorpulse7:

Gypsies are treated like dirt because 90% of them are hoodlums to say the least.

Firstly, if you're going to throw around stats, you need to provide evidence to defend them. If I said 90% of Romanians were criminal idlers and scumbags by just plucking an arbitrary percentage from the ether, you'd be furious. If I said blacks, even more people would be apoplectic. I'd also probably get reported to the board moderators and slapped for racism in either case. But let's face it, casually slagging off gypsies is still socially acceptable.

You are not going to get actual stats because the police hide them due to political corectness. Even in the news, when they hear about a Romanian doing crime abroad, they almost never say their ethnical background, they just show you the pictures and in at least 2/3 of cases it's gypsies. And this is without saying what goes on in the actual country of Romania.
Also, Romanians don't have a reputation for being criminals, gypsies do and not from today or yesteday, but from when they first stepped foot in Europe in the Middle Ages.

The fact that most gypsies are criminals can be deduced by their lifestyle and simple observation. Very few gypsies go to school and most that do don't even make it to highschool level. Most of their poor kids are sent by their parents to beg and they can't come home unless they have a certain sum of money. Needless to say these kids have it worse and are the favorite target of pedophiles. Most gypsies had some skill, whether in wood or metalwork(since they came from india/pakistan region) but these trades are becoming extinct with the new generations.

Gypsies are also averse to work for some reason, even when offered. I personally know people that live in rural areas that had some building projects and the local gypsies didn't want to take them up on their offer(and why should they since the state gives them welfare).

Most gypsies dislike school, don't want to work(not 9 to 5 anyway), don't pay tax and they want a quick buck. Always. So what do you get when you an unwillingness to work, with almost no education and a very low income? You get criminals, since the only way to make money for them is to beg or steal. The gypsies know this themselves, they even plan their families accordingly(I am talking about the poor gypsies, which make up most of their kind), they have a average of 5 kids, and they are sent to do "jobs", beg in area x, pickpocket on bus route y, steal z and so on. And they WILL be beaten should they come home empty handed.

Agema:
Secondly, I already said gypsies cause a lot of trouble. My point is that we know perfectly well from psychological and sociological research that if you degrade people and treat them like criminals, they will be more inclined behave that way. If you are discriminated against for getting a job, you may be need to turn to crime to get by. If you are treated like a criminal even if you are not one, why not just become a criminal - makes no real difference, does it?

Your point would be valid if people in Romania frequently denied jobs for gypsies, which isn't true. First of all, the job possibilites for most gypsies are SEVERELY limited because, as I said, most have trouble finishing the first 8 grades, let alone a college. Why? Because they are held back by their moronic parents and sent to beg while young, and to steal when they are older. So most are looking at manual labour, becoming construction workers, street sweepers and such. What's worse is that a lot of them don't even go to trade school, to learn a freaking skill.

Second,a low income job is not attractive for most of them and yet they are not willing to better themselves nor pursue the same thing for they children, so as to be spaired their fate. And since that welfare is coming, what's the point, amirite?

Due to their "culture" and their inability to integrate into almost all countries, they only have 2 roads - criminal one with a potentially high pay-off if you are smart or the honest low wage manual worker. Gypsies pride themselves on being "free"(they think they are above traditional law, they even have their own internal "tribunal" called the stabor) and they follow their own law, so of course most are gonna go the first route.

Agema:
Part of the thing I don't really get is why you think gypsies need to reform in certain ways. If a culture (or subculture) doesn't want an education and is happy to lead their lives as uneducated, low-paid, itinerant workers then that's their choice. Plenty of gypsies in my country at least do go off and get a job if they wish. I know one - she has a degree and works with a publisher of academic journals. We can demand they follow the law and generally respect the wider society they live in, not dictate and deride them for wanting to live a certain way. It's no more sensible than deriding urban hairdressers for not wanting to be rural lawyers.

Which country do you live in? Just curious.

Don't take this the wrong way, no one is saying to gypsies to get rid of their flowered skirts, or to not braid their hair a certain way, to let go of customs and such. HOWEVER, we are asking them to step into the 21st century and stop their more primitive behaviors:

-stop sending your kids to beg. You are ruining their childhood.

-don't have a fuckton of kids since you won't have anything to feed them with(I repeat, the AVERAGE in Romania is five freaking kids per gypsy family, my aunt works in the maternity ward in Giulesti, Bucharest and she could tell you some stories).

-get jobs.

-most important of all, GET YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL and make sure they at least finish highschool.

-stop marrying your kids before they reach 10 years of age and please, don't let your 12-13 year olds get pregnant. Some gypsies become grandparents by the time they are 30, how messed up is that? Instead of learning the alphabet or ecuations, they have to worry about their water breaking.

-pay your freaking taxes.

If they are good citizens, no one gives a crap about their ethnicity. Romanians have adopted several things from gypsy culture so they have no aversion to them except for when they do criminal activities, a thing which unfortunately defines most of them, both in Romania and abroad. Don't ask me to respect criminals, regardless of race.

Your gypsy friend with higher education is a VERY RARE breed who probably feels very bad when she sees how most of her kin behave. I know the few rare educated gypsies in Romania certainly do and try to better their communities but they simply won't listen.

Trust me, if gypsies were uneducated, low paid workers that were set in primitive ways(as you put it) but left the general population alone, NO ONE would be against them. However, they depend on the honest citizen( who through taxes and the state gives them welfare, reserved spots in schools, stuff to steal etc.) yet most of them not only don't give anything back but they also rob and cheat the honest citizen.

Some people have a romantic view of gypsies with their caravans and stuff but when you see them in actual societies, it makes you want to bang your head against a wall.

predatorpulse7:
PercyBoleyn, you are hilarious and you are either lying about being Romanian

Why would I be lying about being Romanian?

predatorpulse7:
or have been brainwashed to help the people trying to steal your wallet.

You want to have a serious discussion about the Roma and you readily and proudly admit you're a racist? Really?

predatorpulse7:
As I said before, you readily call bullshit on a man that gives you not only gives you info on the Romanian education system but has insiders in it.

Yeah, that angle's not going to work against me. I'm very much aware of the Romanian educational system, after all I went through it, and I can easily tell when you're lying. Please stop.

predatorpulse7:
You say that there schools full of only whites. No shit Sherlock, two thirds of the population is white

The problem is that the majority of Roma students were segregated to other schools.

predatorpulse7:
And how do you feel about the fact that the first segregationist highschool was a project initiated by the gypsy community, not the Romanians?

Which is also bullshit. If there's a plan to build a Roma only school then I say that's a good idea for the time being. It might help with integration, more specifically with trying to convince the Roma people that their kids will be receiving quality education and that sending them to schools is beneficial.

predatorpulse7:
You write about most schools being ok. Maybe in some urban areas.

No, they're not. But they're damn sure better than the schools Roma people are sent too.

predatorpulse7:
Once you step outside, most of them in the rural area are run down. And both Romanian and Gypsy have to study in them.

Most kids born in rural areas are usually sent to urban schools. Grom what I've personally seen most rural schools were full of Roma.

predatorpulse7:
Bucharest, for example, has a fuckton of gypsies and their schools are generally good.

Got any evidence for that?

predatorpulse7:
Now tell me, why do gygpsies that live in Romania's capital city have an aversion to sending their kids to the generally good schools(and by good I don't necessarily mean expensive)?

Like what? I haven't been to Bucharest in six years so I'm not particularly aware of the Roma situation there. I do know that in my county segregationism is quite common and considering the ammount of anti Roma rethoric our politicians spout and the general attitude of Romanians towards the Roma that it's not an isolated incident.

predatorpulse7:
You then write about my misunderstanding of taxation. Actually, I understand it perfectly. Now can you please tell me why most gypsies pay NO TAX to the authorities? Come on Mr.Discrimination, I am waiting.

You don't even understand how taxation works. Why would I do that?

predatorpulse7:
Your parallels with blacks are funny simply because you try to victimize the gypsies when in fact, they are doing more damage to the societies they live in than viceversa.

Well so were blacks. Most of them were welfare sponges, the black community had a high rate of crime. By all accounts, black people back then were, according to you, undeserving of anything and shoulod have been let to wallow in poverty and discrimination.

predatorpulse7:
Blacks were still being HANGED 70 years ago, they studied in separate schools but they were forcefully integrated by the US government.

Do you even know anything about African American civil rights? They were not forcefully integrated, they were forcefully segregated. It took the Civil Rights movement and ten fucking years just to get the discriminatory laws repealled. And it's not like discrimination still isn't common in the US. Seriously, brush up on your history before claiming bullshit.

predatorpulse7:
The Romanian goverment denies that there is a gypsy problem and doesn't forcefully do anything to them in order to intergrate so they roam free.

Forcefull integration is the worst idea possible right now.

predatorpulse7:
They don't have to send their kids to school even though the first 8 grades are MANDATORY

They're not.

predatorpulse7:
they don't have to pay tax even though schmucks like me and you do

The majority of Romas are in poverty. Those that do work do so illegally and I'm not talking about crime.

predatorpulse7:
they don't have to work(since they can beg and steal) and so on.

Yes, because even though the majority of Roma are in poverty they most likely have a fortune made through begging but choose to live in rundown houses and ghettos.

You make these sweeping generalizations without even thinking about what they mean. The Roma do work, they just aren't accepted as anything but manual labourers specifically because of discrimination. The few Roma that supposedly own "palaces" usually engage in much graver illegal activities than stealing a wallet or begging just like every other criminal here.

predatorpulse7:
Meanwhile, blacks(a race that had it worse than gypsies),

They didn't.

predatorpulse7:
a couple of decades after being integrated in society

If you don't know anything about discrimination against African Americans and the Civil Rights movement then keep your mouth shut because you're just going to embarass yourself.

predatorpulse7:
Now you have established that Romania is a very racist country towards gypsies(how do you explain the gypsy slang, the fact that the youth likes manele music, Taraf TV, Mynele TV, the constant forced feeding we have with gypsy "culture" on television), why do you think that EVERY FREAKING CIVILIZED COUNTRY in Europe has had problems with them? Because they discriminate like the primitive Romanians, right?

I'd say it's because of their isolationist culture brought on by hundreds of years of discrimination. Then again, it might just be that all Romas are lazy and want to kill me but then I'd have to get a tinfoil hat just to hold in all my thoughts.

predatorpulse7:
Now that you've painted yourself as a Connoisseur of gypsy culture

Nice strawmann there.

predatorpulse7:
1)why do most gypsies feel that they have to steal instead of work?

Why do most Romanians feel that they have to steal instead of work?

predatorpulse7:
2)why do most gypsies sent their kids to beg?

Not all Romas send their kids to beg.

predatorpulse7:
3)why do most gypsies feel that they are above the law in not paying tax?

The racism in this question is quite evident. Anyways, I've already explained why.

predatorpulse7:
4)why do gypsies insist on marrying their kids before they can barely read and write?

Overgeneralization based on shit you hear from the media. Good job.

predatorpulse7:
5)why do gypsies allow their kids the get pregnant at 12 years of age?

Why do Americans allow their kids to get pregnant by 16 years of age? They even made a reality show about it for fucks sake.

predatorpulse7:
6)why don't gypsies place any faith in the values of a good education for their kids?

Yeah, I think I ranted about this quite extensively on the third page of this thread. Feel free to read my comments there.

Tubez:
Second one is focused on 7 countries in Eastern europe (Hardly all countries that has gypsies)

Yes, because if we see a trend of discrimination in a couple of Eastern European countries it can't possibly extend to the others because... well who knows! Magic!

Tubez:
And the second is that they asked people why they think they havent been rejected (cause people never lies)

And why would they lie?

Tubez:
But please do give me a source that shows that gypsies are not giving fair trial

http://www.coe.int/t/commissioner/source/prems/prems79611_GBR_CouvHumanRightsOfRoma_WEB.pdf

Tubez:
that police often harasses them and that government

http://www.divers.ro/actualitate_en?func=viewSubmission&sid=6926&wid=37647

Tubez:
are allowing them to be segregated

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2011/07/18/feature-04

Tubez:
If they have such a hard time integrating into society then perhaps they should change their culture?

The problem isn't necessarily their culture, it's how other people treat them. If discrimination wasn't a problem the Roma would have integrated long ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Tubez:
And this is not something that is limited to gypsies. The same way that if I moved to Spain/russia/china or whatever place then I just be embracing their culture, not trying to force them to change to accommodate me.

No one is forcing governments to accomodate them. All that I and numerous other people are asking is to stop treating Roma like pieces of shit.

predatorpulse7:

The fact that most gypsies are criminals can be deduced by their lifestyle and simple observation.

I have no interest in such observations and deductions - they are notoriously prone to cognitive biases. A main example is "confirmation bias": a human with presupposition something is the case will overwhelmingly tend to notice and retain facts that reinforce the presupposition whilst ignoring or discounting facts that don't. I'm not saying you're are necessarily wrong. I'm just saying I'm find that sort of argument unsatisfactory.

Nor does any of it address the fact that trying to create a demonising black and white "All their fault not ours" is rarely if ever true or useful.

Which country do you live in? Just curious.

UK. It's worth noting that our gypsies are very different from yours. Romania has Romanies, the UK has barely any - the vast majority are "Irish travellers" with different culture and ethnicity. I might be wrong, but I think they date back to industrial revolution days when Irish manual labourers would travel around doing mostly construction work wherever it was needed. Consequently, there is barely any popular romantic image of caravans, flowered skirts and braided hair in the UK beyond things like fairy tales imported from continental Europe. In certain aspects (disinterest in education, manual labour jobs, etc.) there are similarities.

It's reckoned perhaps only 10-20% of British ethnic gypsies lead nomadic lifestyles. Many these days do have 'regular' jobs settled in cities, precisely because there is insufficient work and places to make camp for them to do otherwise.

I have read the comments here with interest. I think the... emotional responses do well to highlight some of the underlying issues with the matters of immigration and integration.

I would say 2 things:

Firstly; multiculturalism is not cultural assimilation. It is, in fact, the opposite as only with cultural centres can a culture effectively exist. The joy of multiculturalism is cultural diversity which leads to exciting music, great restaurants, interesting television and, ultimately, a dynamic & vigorous national culture.

Secondly; you may note that I made reference to "national culture" within my praise of multiculturalism. To me, the national culture is nothing more than the aggregate of the different cultures within the nation and the crossovers that and fusions that come out of it. An example of this might be the show British show "Goodness Gracious Me" which looks at Indian culture within Britain which humorously examines British Indian culture.

I would conclude, therefore, that only through cultural champions and role models can integration be effectively achieved. Homosexual comedians and icons such as Stephen Fry and Graham Norton have made great inroads in combating homophobia within this great nation. Political representation from ethnic communities gives these communities a voice on the national stage and makes them part of the country.

I ask the OP how the Turks are represented in media and in government in Germany.

PercyBoleyn:
You want to have a serious discussion about the Roma and you readily and proudly admit you're a racist? Really?

Racist? Because I speak the truth? Statistically, the most likely people to steal your wallet in Romania(and not only) is a gypsy. And unlike you, I don't have white guilt, a criminal is a criminal, regardless of race. You want to whitewash the gypsies behavior with hilarious excuses.

PercyBoleyn:
Yeah, that angle's not going to work against me. I'm very much aware of the Romanian educational system, after all I went through it, and I can easily tell when you're lying. Please stop.

Yeah, you sure seem to know a lot, even though you are missing basic things. When pray tell, did you finish highschool/college?

PercyBoleyn:
The problem is that the majority of Roma students were segregated to other schools.

I must've been one of the lucky ones that had a gypsy in class. He was ok btw. The "segregated" schools that you talk about were cesspools because of large gypsy numbers(but not exclusively made up of gypsies) and were way down in the school ranking. And if you're gonna b!tch about putting them in rural areas, the mostly gypsy school from my youth was in near downtown Constanta, a very good area. Most of the gypsies there were filthy and skipped hours to come and beat up the kids from our school, which wasn't far away. No parent in their right mind would send their kids to a school with large gypsy participation because of what might happen to them. If you've lived in Romania I'm sure you've seen what I am talking about.

PercyBoleyn:
Which is also bullshit. If there's a plan to build a Roma only school then I say that's a good idea for the time being. It might help with integration, more specifically with trying to convince the Roma people that their kids will be receiving quality education and that sending them to schools is beneficial.

Aha, so we need to segregate in order to integrate. Freaking brilliant. And I'm the racist.

PercyBoleyn:
No, they're not. But they're damn sure better than the schools Roma people are sent too.

Better by a small margin. You also forget to mention that the hard working Romanian parents have to give money to the schools not only to enter their kid in them but also to renovate the benches, classroom etc. And this happened every year when I went to school. Our parents paid for our schools to look better since the funding from the gov was and always will be crap.

PercyBoleyn:
Most kids born in rural areas are usually sent to urban schools. Grom what I've personally seen most rural schools were full of Roma.

You are partially correct. Roma are poor so they will obviously go to the cheap rural school but there are a lot of Romanians living in the rural areas that can't afford to send their kids to school in urban areas, even when they live close by.

PercyBoleyn:
Got any evidence for that?

Bucharest is the capital city so it naturally has very good schools and as for the fuckton of gypsies, it probably has the largest gypsy population of any urban area in Romania.

PercyBoleyn:
Like what? I haven't been to Bucharest in six years so I'm not particularly aware of the Roma situation there. I do know that in my county segregationism is quite common and considering the ammount of anti Roma rethoric our politicians spout and the general attitude of Romanians towards the Roma that it's not an isolated incident.

The Roma situation in Bucharest is dire. For the people of Bucharest. Bucharest has I think the largest gypsy population(maybe only Craiova can compete) of any Romanian City and guess what, the gypsies behave the same way they do in more rural areas. Literally nothing has changed. You might want to think where that anti-Roma attitude came from.

PercyBoleyn:
You don't even understand how taxation works. Why would I do that?

What's there to understand? You have an income, it gets taxed. Sure, lots of gypsies are on welfare but what about the guys that somehow amass massive fortunes and that pay no tax(officially they have no income, in fact some of these rich mofos go and collect welfare even while having a mercedes at home). Even their Romanian equivalent(of crooks) pay tax to the state. Only gypsies felons get away with giving nothing back to the state. Positive discrimination.

PercyBoleyn:
Well so were blacks. Most of them were welfare sponges, the black community had a high rate of crime. By all accounts, black people back then were, according to you, undeserving of anything and shoulod have been let to wallow in poverty and discrimination.

You have to be kidding me to make that parallel. Blacks had a Martin Luther King(an EDUCATED man) and a Rosa Parks. A lot of blacks WANTED to not be segregated from society, like the whites wished. They wanted to be able to work in various fields, to study together, to make a honest living and not be harassed because of the colour of their skin. Where are the gypsy equivalents? Where is the gypsy desire to integrate into society?

In early 2011, they showed an official stat, that only 250.000 Roma children were in the education system(this is from primary school to college, included). Considering the fact that there are probably 2 million gypsies in Romania(and this is a conservative estimate IMO), that is a low number. Not to mention that we don't know how many stayed in the system.

PercyBoleyn:
Do you even know anything about African American civil rights? They were not forcefully integrated, they were forcefully segregated. It took the Civil Rights movement and ten fucking years just to get the discriminatory laws repealled. And it's not like discrimination still isn't common in the US. Seriously, brush up on your history before claiming bullshit.

I was talking about the period following Civil Rights movement, when certain institutions were forced to have a certain number of african americans and such. In that sense it was forced because it wasn't based on merit but on the required skin tone. Some say it was positive discrimination. What if they passed a law in Romania where they said that you need this many minorities(say gypsies) hired in your institution?

PercyBoleyn:
Forcefull integration is the worst idea possible right now.

Actually it's good but not in the way that you think. They need to make it against the law to marry your kid that young, to make your kids beg and many other wonderful things that gypsies do. And actually apply that law. Once gypsies see that some of their "traditions" are outdated and that they go against fitting into society, they will adapt. No one sane is against their flowered skirts or dances, quite the opposite. Many buy their metalwork as well, though there are few artisans that remain among them.

PercyBoleyn:
They're not.

You're right, they are not. That was under the old law. With the new law, it's now 10 obligatory grades, so even worse for gypsies since it's more long term.

PercyBoleyn:
Yes, because even though the majority of Roma are in poverty they most likely have a fortune made through begging but choose to live in rundown houses and ghettos.

Those that beg don't make huge fortunes but they do make more than if they would work as a labourere

PercyBoleyn:
They didn't.

In Europe, gypsies were slaves for about 400-500 years in most estimates(depends on the region really). Blacks have been taken from Africa ever since Arabs stood on their shores in the 8th and 9th century, to be continued later on by European slave traders.

PercyBoleyn:
If you don't know anything about discrimination against African Americans and the Civil Rights movement then keep your mouth shut because you're just going to embarass yourself.

Someone somewhere will discriminate against you. Doesn't change the fact that couple of decades after the civil rights movement, blacks were starting to appear way more in the forefront of american society. And they did it by shouting that they were part the community, not segregating like some gypsy leaders want with their education system.

PercyBoleyn:
I'd say it's because of their isolationist culture brought on by hundreds of years of discrimination. Then again, it might just be that all Romas are lazy and want to kill me but then I'd have to get a tinfoil hat just to hold in all my thoughts.

Isolationist would be good since it meant they stayed out of other people's business. No, Romas all not all lazy but most of them very definitely are. You still haven't explained why persecuted people like the jews or blacks have succesfully integrated in modern societies whereas most gypsies remained 15th century parasites even after being freed. Could it have to do something with their(non) values?

PercyBoleyn:
Why do most Romanians feel that they have to steal instead of work?

Nice try. Most of the workforce is Romanian(verifiable by stats).

PercyBoleyn:
Not all Romas send their kids to beg.

Not all, just most. It's quick buck. You have 5 kids at home, what are you gonna do, send them to waste their time in school? I've lived 25 years in this country, traveled in all directions in it yet I did not see one non-gypsy child beggar.

PercyBoleyn:
Overgeneralization based on shit you hear from the media. Good job.

I so wish that was true. Unfortunately, I live in a hotbed of gypsies seeing as I am in Bucharest and these kind of young marriages(to say the least) are the norm. Many gypsy girls are grandmothers in their 20's, for Christ's sake and they view it as NORMAL.

PercyBoleyn:
Why do Americans allow their kids to get pregnant by 16 years of age? They even made a reality show about it for fucks sake.

Only the dumb ones get pregnant that young so that's not exactly a good comparison. Not to mention that 16 and 12 are pretty far apart in physical and emotional development. And it's not like teen pregnancy is the NORM(in fact it's looked down upon) whereas a pregnancy at 12-13 years of age will be welcomed with joy in a gypsy family.

Agema:

Nor does any of it address the fact that trying to create a demonising black and white "All their fault not ours" is rarely if ever true or useful.

Our (ancestors) fault is that they made them slaves(though I guess I shouldn't judge the decision in modern context). That is the Romanian fault in the matter. The gypsies have been freed for over 150 years. Gypsies however have victimized themselves while doing criminal activities and throw the "big bad Romanians are discriminating" argument against us anytime we reprimand them for being thieves, munching off welfare and treating their children like dirt.

We are called racists when we get along with every other ethnicity except gypsies(and partially hungarians, but that is because of historical friction, think england-france). In this country we have turks,tatars,arabs,hungarians,recently we've had a influx of asians with some blacks thrown in and guess what? WE ALL GET ALONG, because most of these people want to work and not steal.

There is a great example I will give with the chinese workers that come here to work in construction. They are very poor by the look of them, they work for peanuts from what I've heard yet you rarely see them exhibit the type of behavior gypsies are famous for even though they are clearly desperate people if they come here for work. When some had trouble with their papers, they protested outside the Chinese Embassy and they were literally starving but they didn't attack the local population or try to steal from them. Luckily, people chipped in and gave them some food in the end.

Agema:
UK. It's worth noting that our gypsies are very different from yours. Romania has Romanies, the UK has barely any - the vast majority are "Irish travellers" with different culture and ethnicity. I might be wrong, but I think they date back to industrial revolution days when Irish manual labourers would travel around doing mostly construction work wherever it was needed. Consequently, there is barely any popular romantic image of caravans, flowered skirts and braided hair in the UK beyond things like fairy tales imported from continental Europe. In certain aspects (disinterest in education, manual labour jobs, etc.) there are similarities.

It's reckoned perhaps only 10-20% of British ethnic gypsies lead nomadic lifestyles. Many these days do have 'regular' jobs settled in cities, precisely because there is insufficient work and places to make camp for them to do otherwise.

Yeah, they are probably different, I don't know if by blood but their behavior is different, perhaps even some customs

The gypsies in Eastern Europe are very aggressive when they decide to do illegal stuff, they don't mess about. The Romanian gypsies didn't used to be so(probably because in Ceasescu's time any sort of shifty behavior would land you jail time or worse, regardless of skin colour) but they have grown bolder in latter years, and are starting to resemble their Bulgarian and Hungarian brothers.

There are entire gypsy neighbourhoods in major Romanian cities where even the Police has to look both ways before entering, something that was inconceivable in the past. I don't know if this kind of situation exists in the UK, I doubt it. Certain gypsies have made money stealing abroad and they now use that money to buy off certain police officials. Heck, one of the big gypsy mobsters called Bercea got the President's brother to be his niece's godfather, thus simbolically entering them into the family. Gypsies were also behind two widely publicized murders, that of American basketball player Chauncy Hardy(in Giurgiu, Romania) and of Romanian handball player Marian Cozma(in Veszprem, Hungary), which shocked public opinion since gypsies were known(in Romania)to be mostly petty thieves and beggars, not murderers.

predatorpulse7:
Racist? Because I speak the truth? Statistically, the most likely people to steal your wallet in Romania(and not only) is a gypsy.

Do you have any proof of that or do you find yourself enjoying pulling shit out of your ass?

predatorpulse7:
And unlike you, I don't have white guilt, a criminal is a criminal, regardless of race. You want to whitewash the gypsies behavior with hilarious excuses.

It's not that simple. Besides, strawman. I never claimed criminals shouldn't be jailed.

predatorpulse7:
Yeah, you sure seem to know a lot, even though you are missing basic things. When pray tell, did you finish highschool/college?

And why is that important?

predatorpulse7:
I must've been one of the lucky ones that had a gypsy in class. He was ok btw. The "segregated" schools that you talk about were cesspools because of large gypsy numbers(but not exclusively made up of gypsies) and were way down in the school ranking.

Yeah, that's bullshit. High ranking high schools rarely if ever accept Roma students.

predatorpulse7:
And if you're gonna b!tch about putting them in rural areas, the mostly gypsy school from my youth was in near downtown Constanta, a very good area.

Strawman, again. I never claimed all Roma students are sent to rural schools.

predatorpulse7:
Most of the gypsies there were filthy and skipped hours to come and beat up the kids from our school, which wasn't far away.

Of course they did.

predatorpulse7:
No parent in their right mind would send their kids to a school with large gypsy participation because of what might happen to them. If you've lived in Romania I'm sure you've seen what I am talking about.

I've seen more violence from white people than Romas. In fact, I was beaten up by a white person. Then again, a Roma stole my TV.

predatorpulse7:
Aha, so we need to segregate in order to integrate. Freaking brilliant. And I'm the racist.

You're missing the point. Please read my post again.

predatorpulse7:
Better by a small margin.

Bullshit. The high schools in my town with the highest concentration of Romas lacked adequate everything. By comparison, the other high schools were fucking heaven both in terms of quality and actually having windows.

predatorpulse7:
You also forget to mention that the hard working Romanian parents have to give money to the schools not only to enter their kid in them but also to renovate the benches, classroom etc.

So what?

predatorpulse7:
And this happened every year when I went to school. Our parents paid for our schools to look better since the funding from the gov was and always will be crap.

Blame the government then.

predatorpulse7:
You are partially correct. Roma are poor so they will obviously go to the cheap rural school but there are a lot of Romanians living in the rural areas that can't afford to send their kids to school in urban areas, even when they live close by.

That's not necessarily true. Most high schools have dormitories nearby. It's true tough, rural areas here are quite poor.

predatorpulse7:
Bucharest is the capital city so it naturally has very good schools

Which is why they're ranked so low.

predatorpulse7:
and as for the fuckton of gypsies, it probably has the largest gypsy population of any urban area in Romania.

Proof?

predatorpulse7:
What's there to understand? You have an income, it gets taxed. Sure, lots of gypsies are on welfare but what about the guys that somehow amass massive fortunes and that pay no tax(officially they have no income, in fact some of these rich mofos go and collect welfare even while having a mercedes at home). Even their Romanian equivalent(of crooks) pay tax to the state. Only gypsies felons get away with giving nothing back to the state. Positive discrimination.

It's called crime and it's not exclusive to the Roma community. If you think criminals pay tax then you're obviously out of your goddamn mind.

predatorpulse7:
You have to be kidding me to make that parallel. Blacks had a Martin Luther King(an EDUCATED man) and a Rosa Parks. A lot of blacks WANTED to not be segregated from society, like the whites wished. They wanted to be able to work in various fields, to study together, to make a honest living and not be harassed because of the colour of their skin. Where are the gypsy equivalents? Where is the gypsy desire to integrate into society?

You don't seem to know what integrate means. Anyways, the african american community did not want to integrate, they wanted to stop discrimination. I've also already posted quite a large list of organizations fighting discrimination against the Roma.

predatorpulse7:
In early 2011, they showed an official stat, that only 250.000 Roma children were in the education system(this is from primary school to college, included). Considering the fact that there are probably 2 million gypsies in Romania(and this is a conservative estimate IMO), that is a low number. Not to mention that we don't know how many stayed in the system.

Considering the state of the schools they're sent to and the discrimination they have to face each day, I'm not surprised.

predatorpulse7:
They need to make it against the law to marry your kid that young

It is.

predatorpulse7:
to make your kids beg

Because begging is exclusive to Romas.

predatorpulse7:
and many other wonderful things that gypsies do.

Yes, because only the Romas are capable of great crime.

predatorpulse7:
And actually apply that law. Once gypsies see that some of their "traditions" are outdated

Do you have any actual statistics on the number of Roma who marry their children young or are you just going by what the media says?

predatorpulse7:
You're right, they are not. That was under the old law. With the new law, it's now 10 obligatory grades, so even worse for gypsies since it's more long term.

Yeah, they're not obligatory.

predatorpulse7:
Those that beg don't make huge fortunes but they do make more than if they would work as a labourere

And if you were piss poor and had the choice between working manual labour or begging, knowing that the latter would get you more money, which one would you choose? Don't kid yourself.

predatorpulse7:
In Europe, gypsies were slaves for about 400-500 years in most estimates(depends on the region really). Blacks have been taken from Africa ever since Arabs stood on their shores in the 8th and 9th century, to be continued later on by European slave traders.

Yes, because the number of years a group was forced into slavery really matters at this point. Besides, it was not just slavery they had to go through. Read my reply to Volf on page 2 or 3, can't remember exactly.

predatorpulse7:
Someone somewhere will discriminate against you. Doesn't change the fact that couple of decades after the civil rights movement, blacks were starting to appear way more in the forefront of american society.

Yeah, except even though the Civil Rights movement succeeded, black people still wallow in poverty.

predatorpulse7:
And they did it by shouting that they were part the community, not segregating like some gypsy leaders want with their education system.

You missed the point, again.

predatorpulse7:
Isolationist would be good since it meant they stayed out of other people's business.

Do you even know why the Roma became so isolationist and protective of their culture in the first place?

predatorpulse7:
No, Romas all not all lazy but most of them very definitely are.

Got any evidence to support that claim or do you enjoy letting your racist views shine?

predatorpulse7:
You still haven't explained why persecuted people like the jews or blacks have succesfully integrated in modern societies

Discrimination against the Jews stopped because of the Hollocaust and african americans still have to suffer from the after effects of hundreds of years of persecution and discrimination.

predatorpulse7:
whereas most gypsies remained 15th century parasites even after being freed.

More bullshit. This seems to be a trend with you.

predatorpulse7:
Nice try. Most of the workforce is Romanian(verifiable by stats).

Yes, and Romanians never steal. It's not like we have one the highest rates of corruption in Europe.

predatorpulse7:
Not all, just most.

Evidence for that?

predatorpulse7:
I so wish that was true. Unfortunately, I live in a hotbed of gypsies seeing as I am in Bucharest and these kind of young marriages(to say the least) are the norm.

Proof?

predatorpulse7:
Many gypsy girls are grandmothers in their 20's, for Christ's sake and they view it as NORMAL.

Evidence? Proof?!

predatorpulse7:
Only the dumb ones get pregnant that young so that's not exactly a good comparison.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?

predatorpulse7:
And it's not like teen pregnancy is the NORM(in fact it's looked down upon) whereas a pregnancy at 12-13 years of age will be welcomed with joy in a gypsy family.

Proof?

PercyBoleyn:
snip

"Yes, because if we see a trend of discrimination in a couple of Eastern European countries it can't possibly extend to the others because... well who knows! Magic!"

Except that all countries are not the same. Shall I say just because some countries execute their political opponents and therefor all countries must be doing it?

Sources: I would like to see some sources that for an example my countrys police is abusing gypsies, refusing to give them a fair trial and such since you said

""They are in a genuinely shitty legal situation. They do not have the right to fair trail, the police force often harasses them, employers refuse to hire them, their children are segregated in schools etc.""

You did not say in some Eastern europe countries.

As for why people lie?
Cause then they do not have to face reality? It's easier to blame somebody else then yourself? it exist several reasons for why people would lie.

"The problem isn't necessarily their culture, it's how other people treat them. If discrimination wasn't a problem the Roma would have integrated long ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion."

Got any sources for this? since if somebody has a culture of seeing school as not important, then I would have to say that culture will be having problem in todays society

"No one is forcing governments to accomodate them. All that I and numerous other people are asking is to stop treating Roma like pieces of shit."

Except that you link you gave me before they complained that gypsies was evicted from private properties.
Do you also agree that they should be able to not go to school (even thought its mandatory?) and do you think the should be able marry when they are under 18years?
I would have to say that is trying to force people to accommodate them.

Tubez:
Except that all countries are not the same. Shall I say just because some countries execute their political opponents and therefor all countries must be doing it?

A trend can be extrapolated and considering Eastern Europe is well known for Roma discrimination, this is a no brainer.

Tubez:
Sources: I would like to see some sources that for an example my countrys police is abusing gypsies, refusing to give them a fair trial and such since you said

Sweden is in Western Europe.

Tubez:
You did not say in some Eastern europe countries.

Fine, then I'll say so now. We were specifically talking about Eastern Europe, I thought it was obvious.

Tubez:
As for why people lie?
Cause then they do not have to face reality? It's easier to blame somebody else then yourself? it exist several reasons for why people would lie.

Discrimination against the Roma is common in Eastern Europe. There'd be no reason for them to lie.

Tubez:
Got any sources for this? since if somebody has a culture of seeing school as not important, then I would have to say that culture will be having problem in todays society

Read my post again:

"The problem isn't necessarily their culture, it's how other people treat them. If discrimination wasn't a problem the Roma would have integrated long ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion."

Tubez:
Except that you link you gave me before they complained that gypsies was evicted from private properties.

It was either keep them on private property or throw them out on the street. It's not that simple.

Tubez:
Do you also agree that they should be able to not go to school (even thought its mandatory?) .

Strawman. I never said that.

Tubez:
and do you think the should be able marry when they are under 18years?

Any evidence for that?

Tubez:
I would have to say that is trying to force people to accommodate them.

Nope.

PercyBoleyn:

Tubez:
Except that all countries are not the same. Shall I say just because some countries execute their political opponents and therefor all countries must be doing it?

A trend can be extrapolated and considering Eastern Europe is well known for Roma discrimination, this is a no brainer.

Tubez:
Sources: I would like to see some sources that for an example my countrys police is abusing gypsies, refusing to give them a fair trial and such since you said

Sweden is in Western Europe.

Tubez:
You did not say in some Eastern europe countries.

Fine, then I'll say so now. We were specifically talking about Eastern Europe, I thought it was obvious.

Tubez:
As for why people lie?
Cause then they do not have to face reality? It's easier to blame somebody else then yourself? it exist several reasons for why people would lie.

Discrimination against the Roma is common in Eastern Europe. There'd be no reason for them to lie.

Tubez:
Got any sources for this? since if somebody has a culture of seeing school as not important, then I would have to say that culture will be having problem in todays society

Read my post again:

"The problem isn't necessarily their culture, it's how other people treat them. If discrimination wasn't a problem the Roma would have integrated long ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion."

Tubez:
Except that you link you gave me before they complained that gypsies was evicted from private properties.

It was either keep them on private property or throw them out on the street. It's not that simple.

Tubez:
Do you also agree that they should be able to not go to school (even thought its mandatory?) .

Strawman. I never said that.

Tubez:
and do you think the should be able marry when they are under 18years?

Any evidence for that?

Tubez:
I would have to say that is trying to force people to accommodate them.

Nope.

There is always a reason to lie.

Private properties is private.
I wouldn't dare to presume that I should just be able to walk up to a house and start living their and not be expected to be evicted simply cause I do not have anywhere else to go.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3159818.stm

"The girl's father, self-proclaimed Roma king Florin Cioaba, appeared on television on Tuesday to defend the wedding.

"As a father I know what is good for my kids. There are some laws that have to be respected. We Roma have a tradition to marry our children when minors," he said."

"The legal minimum age for marriage in Romania is 16, but correspondents say the practice of school-age marriages remains common in the Roma community, and the authorities normally turn a blind eye."

http://books.google.se/books?id=yTylND961ZMC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=Underage+marriages+with+gypsy&source=bl&ots=_WwKBz6g7h&sig=8hUghdFJ0atL0j40UYOse0IIeFk&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=4wOHT47JDsHk4QSL0dn8Bw&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=Underage%20marriages%20with%20gypsy&f=false

"The roma traditionally marry much sooner than others have more children. In bulgaria Gypsy girls often get married at 13, and in Romania many romani families arrange marriages for their children as young as 12.
The birthrate of non-Gypsy women in romania is 1.79 as opposed to 4.35 for their Gypsy counterparts"

Then I will ask you, do you agree that the government should force everyone to attend school until a certain age/level of education

PercyBoleyn, you asking for proof for some of those issues(or should I say realities) up there lets me know that you either don't live in Romania or do live there but are as far from gypsy communities as possible. I mean, I've seen this s**t with gypsies in Constanta, Bucharest and in the Ardeal region. What more proof do you need? If a couple of gypsies show that they can integrate in society, does this mean we can ignore the awful general behavior of the rest?

Plus, since gypsies are hardly organized and they rarely report anything to authorities(hell we don't even know how many there are, let alone more complex socio-economic stats), it's tough to gain have any stats on them, especially when regarding the more "sensitive" aspects of their community.

No minority out there is as hated as gypsies. Everywhere they went people despised them. Did you never stop to ask yourself why? Surely some of it is the gypsies fault, just a teeny tiny bit?

I mean, we have countries that can integrate blacks,jews,asians but gypsies are always problematic. Why is that? I mean, I get that I am a stinking racist and so are my countrymen but why are the gypsies so special in this regard? Perhaps you can find a better and more realistic answer than "well they were discriminated since they arrived on this continent and people have been crapping on them ever since"

Blacks are supposedly lazy as s**t(the stereotype goes) but they have many athletes in major leagues in US sports, in entertainment and politics. They have leaders in their community that stand up for them from time to time. Jews, when not plotting world domination(LOL), are highly influential in the US(and to some extent in the world)due to their focus on education and these were a people that got f**ked bad in history. And repeatedly. Yeah, I am sick of the way some of these minorities victimize themselves constantly but unlike gypsies, they took their shared pain and tried to make something of themselves.

The only minority that has fallen behind and bad WHEREVER they settled are gypsies. In Romania, where apparently they are f**ked the most(and oddly enough most of them choose to live there instead of neighbouring countries, I wonder why?), they have basically no leaders or joke leaders that do SQUAT for them. They have absolutely no voice and instead of creating one from their mist they just roll on with their bad habits. There are some smart gypsies out there(with college education) yet none of them step forward, not in any meaningful way. How many gypsy leaders step out there and say that they are proud of their heritage? How many preach modern ways to gypsies, many that still live in 15th century ways?

Seeing all this potential for racism in Romania, makes me wonder, why aren't we more racist towards the Turks living in our country? I mean they did make us basically vassals for a couple hundred years at the time of the Ottoman Empire and yet they are no ill feelings toward them. Why is that? I mean they even have a different religion.

Could it be cause most of them are civilized, work and keep to themselves while not being isolationists? Anti-semitism was and to some extent still is widespread in Romania and yet the few jews that still live in Romania are usually highly succesful businessmen. Only the poor gypsies seem to fail to integrate regardless of the country they step in.

BUT IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT :(

To conclude, the gypsy minority needs leaders that can make them renounce the primitive customs that hold them back and allow them to integrate in society. Step into the 21st century, I say.

Tubez:

PercyBoleyn:

Tubez:
Except that all countries are not the same. Shall I say just because some countries execute their political opponents and therefor all countries must be doing it?

A trend can be extrapolated and considering Eastern Europe is well known for Roma discrimination, this is a no brainer.

Tubez:
Sources: I would like to see some sources that for an example my countrys police is abusing gypsies, refusing to give them a fair trial and such since you said

Sweden is in Western Europe.

Tubez:
You did not say in some Eastern europe countries.

Fine, then I'll say so now. We were specifically talking about Eastern Europe, I thought it was obvious.

Tubez:
As for why people lie?
Cause then they do not have to face reality? It's easier to blame somebody else then yourself? it exist several reasons for why people would lie.

Discrimination against the Roma is common in Eastern Europe. There'd be no reason for them to lie.

Tubez:
Got any sources for this? since if somebody has a culture of seeing school as not important, then I would have to say that culture will be having problem in todays society

Read my post again:

"The problem isn't necessarily their culture, it's how other people treat them. If discrimination wasn't a problem the Roma would have integrated long ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion."

Tubez:
Except that you link you gave me before they complained that gypsies was evicted from private properties.

It was either keep them on private property or throw them out on the street. It's not that simple.

Tubez:
Do you also agree that they should be able to not go to school (even thought its mandatory?) .

Strawman. I never said that.

Tubez:
and do you think the should be able marry when they are under 18years?

Any evidence for that?

Tubez:
I would have to say that is trying to force people to accommodate them.

Nope.

There is always a reason to lie.

Private properties is private.
I wouldn't dare to presume that I should just be able to walk up to a house and start living their and not be expected to be evicted simply cause I do not have anywhere else to go.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3159818.stm

"The girl's father, self-proclaimed Roma king Florin Cioaba, appeared on television on Tuesday to defend the wedding.

"As a father I know what is good for my kids. There are some laws that have to be respected. We Roma have a tradition to marry our children when minors," he said."

"The legal minimum age for marriage in Romania is 16, but correspondents say the practice of school-age marriages remains common in the Roma community, and the authorities normally turn a blind eye."

http://books.google.se/books?id=yTylND961ZMC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=Underage+marriages+with+gypsy&source=bl&ots=_WwKBz6g7h&sig=8hUghdFJ0atL0j40UYOse0IIeFk&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=4wOHT47JDsHk4QSL0dn8Bw&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=Underage%20marriages%20with%20gypsy&f=false

"The roma traditionally marry much sooner than others have more children. In bulgaria Gypsy girls often get married at 13, and in Romania many romani families arrange marriages for their children as young as 12.
The birthrate of non-Gypsy women in romania is 1.79 as opposed to 4.35 for their Gypsy counterparts"

Then I will ask you, do you agree that the government should force everyone to attend school until a certain age/level of education

Wow, that's so racist, LOL.

Oh, and that 4.35 figure for kids is conservative to say the least.

Bertylicious:
I have read the comments here with interest. I think the... emotional responses do well to highlight some of the underlying issues with the matters of immigration and integration.

I would say 2 things:

Firstly; multiculturalism is not cultural assimilation. It is, in fact, the opposite as only with cultural centres can a culture effectively exist. The joy of multiculturalism is cultural diversity which leads to exciting music, great restaurants, interesting television and, ultimately, a dynamic & vigorous national culture.

Secondly; you may note that I made reference to "national culture" within my praise of multiculturalism. To me, the national culture is nothing more than the aggregate of the different cultures within the nation and the crossovers that and fusions that come out of it. An example of this might be the show British show "Goodness Gracious Me" which looks at Indian culture within Britain which humorously examines British Indian culture.

I would conclude, therefore, that only through cultural champions and role models can integration be effectively achieved. Homosexual comedians and icons such as Stephen Fry and Graham Norton have made great inroads in combating homophobia within this great nation. Political representation from ethnic communities gives these communities a voice on the national stage and makes them part of the country.

I ask the OP how the Turks are represented in media and in government in Germany.

Actually there are two kinds of multiculturalism. The meltpot multiculturalism and the mozaic one. The meltpot is a multiculturalism that actually favors one culture that is tolerant towards many different cultural traits. This is the European multiculturalism, you allow people to be christians, atheists, gay, muslims, etc. But you don't allow people to keep a lifestyle that is against our norms. The Mozaic one simply tells everyone you can keep your culture, and that is the Canadian multiculturalism where you can for instance find weird religious denominations which sometimes even get special privileges because of their culture. This doesn't work in Europe, everyone is equal to the law, the law allows a certain liberty and freedom that allows certain cultural traits to coexist but certain have to go because they are against our norms.

Personally i have no faith in a mozaic multiculturalism in a European setting, where people all live close to each other and where there are strong national cultures that have been built over centuries of history.

generals3:

Bertylicious:
I have read the comments here with interest. I think the... emotional responses do well to highlight some of the underlying issues with the matters of immigration and integration.

I would say 2 things:

Firstly; multiculturalism is not cultural assimilation. It is, in fact, the opposite as only with cultural centres can a culture effectively exist. The joy of multiculturalism is cultural diversity which leads to exciting music, great restaurants, interesting television and, ultimately, a dynamic & vigorous national culture.

Secondly; you may note that I made reference to "national culture" within my praise of multiculturalism. To me, the national culture is nothing more than the aggregate of the different cultures within the nation and the crossovers that and fusions that come out of it. An example of this might be the show British show "Goodness Gracious Me" which looks at Indian culture within Britain which humorously examines British Indian culture.

I would conclude, therefore, that only through cultural champions and role models can integration be effectively achieved. Homosexual comedians and icons such as Stephen Fry and Graham Norton have made great inroads in combating homophobia within this great nation. Political representation from ethnic communities gives these communities a voice on the national stage and makes them part of the country.

I ask the OP how the Turks are represented in media and in government in Germany.

Actually there are two kinds of multiculturalism. The meltpot multiculturalism and the mozaic one. The meltpot is a multiculturalism that actually favors one culture that is tolerant towards many different cultural traits. This is the European multiculturalism, you allow people to be christians, atheists, gay, muslims, etc. But you don't allow people to keep a lifestyle that is against our norms. The Mozaic one simply tells everyone you can keep your culture, and that is the Canadian multiculturalism where you can for instance find weird religious denominations which sometimes even get special privileges because of their culture. This doesn't work in Europe, everyone is equal to the law, the law allows a certain liberty and freedom that allows certain cultural traits to coexist but certain have to go because they are against our norms.

Personally i have no faith in a mozaic multiculturalism in a European setting, where people all live close to each other and where there are strong national cultures that have been built over centuries of history.

Congrats on your post and on your realism towards the situation of multiculturalism in Europe.

predatorpulse7:

generals3:

Bertylicious:
I have read the comments here with interest. I think the... emotional responses do well to highlight some of the underlying issues with the matters of immigration and integration.

I would say 2 things:

Firstly; multiculturalism is not cultural assimilation. It is, in fact, the opposite as only with cultural centres can a culture effectively exist. The joy of multiculturalism is cultural diversity which leads to exciting music, great restaurants, interesting television and, ultimately, a dynamic & vigorous national culture.

Secondly; you may note that I made reference to "national culture" within my praise of multiculturalism. To me, the national culture is nothing more than the aggregate of the different cultures within the nation and the crossovers that and fusions that come out of it. An example of this might be the show British show "Goodness Gracious Me" which looks at Indian culture within Britain which humorously examines British Indian culture.

I would conclude, therefore, that only through cultural champions and role models can integration be effectively achieved. Homosexual comedians and icons such as Stephen Fry and Graham Norton have made great inroads in combating homophobia within this great nation. Political representation from ethnic communities gives these communities a voice on the national stage and makes them part of the country.

I ask the OP how the Turks are represented in media and in government in Germany.

Actually there are two kinds of multiculturalism. The meltpot multiculturalism and the mozaic one. The meltpot is a multiculturalism that actually favors one culture that is tolerant towards many different cultural traits. This is the European multiculturalism, you allow people to be christians, atheists, gay, muslims, etc. But you don't allow people to keep a lifestyle that is against our norms. The Mozaic one simply tells everyone you can keep your culture, and that is the Canadian multiculturalism where you can for instance find weird religious denominations which sometimes even get special privileges because of their culture. This doesn't work in Europe, everyone is equal to the law, the law allows a certain liberty and freedom that allows certain cultural traits to coexist but certain have to go because they are against our norms.

Personally i have no faith in a mozaic multiculturalism in a European setting, where people all live close to each other and where there are strong national cultures that have been built over centuries of history.

Congrats on your post and on your realism towards the situation of multiculturalism in Europe.

Surely though the Canadian "mosaic" has more to do with the fact much of it was colonised by the British and Quebec and other areas by the French. One imagines that this state of affairs resulted in an environment where variances in the legal structure could occur, but that is a peripheral consideration. Naturally the laws of the land are the laws of the land and such things must be observed by all to ensure a stable framework for people to live in.

Cutting a long story short; I don't really see how that is much of a problem. Immigration of peoples with radically different belief systems has been something of a long observed theme within Europe and, while there is strife and difficulty, these have not proven to be insurmountable problems where proper respect, representation and understanding are observed.

Besides, apart from ultra-conservatives, who're really just authoritarian dickheads in different hats, are we all really so dissimilar?

Bertylicious:

predatorpulse7:

generals3:

Actually there are two kinds of multiculturalism. The meltpot multiculturalism and the mozaic one. The meltpot is a multiculturalism that actually favors one culture that is tolerant towards many different cultural traits. This is the European multiculturalism, you allow people to be christians, atheists, gay, muslims, etc. But you don't allow people to keep a lifestyle that is against our norms. The Mozaic one simply tells everyone you can keep your culture, and that is the Canadian multiculturalism where you can for instance find weird religious denominations which sometimes even get special privileges because of their culture. This doesn't work in Europe, everyone is equal to the law, the law allows a certain liberty and freedom that allows certain cultural traits to coexist but certain have to go because they are against our norms.

Personally i have no faith in a mozaic multiculturalism in a European setting, where people all live close to each other and where there are strong national cultures that have been built over centuries of history.

Congrats on your post and on your realism towards the situation of multiculturalism in Europe.

Besides, apart from ultra-conservatives, who're really just authoritarian dickheads in different hats, are we all really so dissimilar?

Human history says we are. There has never been a Shangri-La where all races of all faiths live happily ever after. Even in the cradle of modern multiculturalism, the USA, racial/cultural tension still exists between certain groups. If I've learned anything in my 25 years of life is that human beings tend to look towards the things that differentiate us from others, not the things that we have in common. Us versus them has been ingrained in the human psyche since our beginnings and I doubt it will go away any time soon.

Tubez:
Private properties is private.
I wouldn't dare to presume that I should just be able to walk up to a house and start living their and not be expected to be evicted simply cause I do not have anywhere else to go.

It's much more complex than you make it out to be. They've been living there for ten years.

Tubez:
"The girl's father, self-proclaimed Roma king Florin Cioaba, appeared on television on Tuesday to defend the wedding.

And because the self proclaimed king of the Romas does something, it must be practiced by the entirety of the Roma community. A few isolated cases doesn't prove anything.

Tubez:
Then I will ask you, do you agree that the government should force everyone to attend school until a certain age/level of education

Until 4th grade.

predatorpulse7:
PercyBoleyn, you asking for proof for some of those issues(or should I say realities) up there lets me know that you either don't live in Romania or do live there but are as far from gypsy communities as possible.

Yeah, you can call it into question for as long as you'd like. I live here, I'm very much aware of the Romas situation and my appartment is 10 minutes away from a ghetto. Don't fucking pull that bullshit again. You claimed something, I asked you for proof. If you can't provide it then you're not only wrong but you lied, plain and simple.

predatorpulse7:
What more proof do you need?

Your word? That's this supposed proof you keep touting? Get the fuck out of here. If you want to be racist then that's fine by me but don't expect others not to question your damaging beliefs.

predatorpulse7:
Plus, since gypsies are hardly organized and they rarely report anything to authorities(hell we don't even know how many there are, let alone more complex socio-economic stats), it's tough to gain have any stats on them, especially when regarding the more "sensitive" aspects of their community.

Which means anything you claim is complete and utter bullshit.

predatorpulse7:
No minority out there is as hated as gypsies. Everywhere they went people despised them. Did you never stop to ask yourself why? Surely some of it is the gypsies fault, just a teeny tiny bit?

Black people used to be the most despised minority in the US. Was it their fault? What about gays? Is it their fault they're being discriminated against?

predatorpulse7:
I mean, we have countries that can integrate blacks,jews,asians but gypsies are always problematic. Why is that?

It took five hundred years of oppression, twenty years of protesting, which by the way continues to this day, to get discrimination against black people to partially stop.

It took the Hollocaust for the Jews to stop being discriminated against.

It took two atomic bombs and shoving them into internment camps for discrimination against Asians, or more specifically the Japanese, to stop.

And yet after all of this, they're still being discriminated against.

predatorpulse7:
Perhaps you can find a better and more realistic answer than "well they were discriminated since they arrived on this continent and people have been crapping on them ever since"

Except that's the truth. You want me to do the same thing I did with Volf and start listing the atrocities committed against the Roma?

predatorpulse7:
Blacks are supposedly lazy as s**t(the stereotype goes) but they have many athletes in major leagues in US sports, in entertainment and politics.

And yet the black community is still in poverty, so what does that tell you about black people?

predatorpulse7:
They have leaders in their community that stand up for them from time to time.

There are numerous organizations that fight for Roma rights.

predatorpulse7:
Jews, when not plotting world domination(LOL), are highly influential in the US(and to some extent in the world)due to their focus on education.

Yes, and all it took was the Hollocaust to get the West to accept them. Incidentally, did you know the Jews are just as isolationist as the Roma when it comes to their culture and customs?

predatorpulse7:
The only minority that has fallen behind and bad WHEREVER they settled are gypsies. In Romania, where apparently they are f**ked the most(and oddly enough most of them choose to live there instead of neighbouring countries, I wonder why?)

You're like President Shit-For-Brains except he actually made something of himself.

predatorpulse7:
Seeing all this potential for racism in Romania, makes me wonder, why aren't we more racist towards the Turks living in our country? I mean they did make us basically vassals for a couple hundred years at the time of the Ottoman Empire and yet they are no ill feelings toward them. Why is that? I mean they even have a different religion.

Because the Turks were never oppressed on the same scale the Roma and African Americans were.

PercyBoleyn:

Tubez:
Private properties is private.
I wouldn't dare to presume that I should just be able to walk up to a house and start living their and not be expected to be evicted simply cause I do not have anywhere else to go.

It's much more complex than you make it out to be. They've been living there for ten years.

Tubez:
"The girl's father, self-proclaimed Roma king Florin Cioaba, appeared on television on Tuesday to defend the wedding.

And because the self proclaimed king of the Romas does something, it must be practiced by the entirety of the Roma community. A few isolated cases doesn't prove anything.

Tubez:
Then I will ask you, do you agree that the government should force everyone to attend school until a certain age/level of education

Until 4th grade.

They didnt live there for 10 years.
The first spot they took over was for 10 years, then they got evicted, moved to another place, got evicted, moved again, got evicted.
And it doesnt matter how long you have been living there. I cannot just go up to a house and live there for one year and then say it's my house.

I even gave you a book about the subject, but I guess it's easier to ignore that then face reality?

In 4th grade you are around 10-11 years old? or is it different in romania/easter europe?

Tubez:
And it doesnt matter how long you have been living there. I cannot just go up to a house and live there for one year and then say it's my house.

Yeah, it's not that easy. You can't just evict them and tell them to fuck off, then they'll just end up on the streets again. The reason why they were homeless in the first place should have been addressed.

Tubez:
I even gave you a book about the subject, but I guess it's easier to ignore that then face reality?

And books cannot make unfounded claims. Where did the author get all that information? How does he know for sure that what he says is true? I'm asking you for actual studies, not claims.

predatorpulse7:

Bertylicious:

predatorpulse7:

Congrats on your post and on your realism towards the situation of multiculturalism in Europe.

Besides, apart from ultra-conservatives, who're really just authoritarian dickheads in different hats, are we all really so dissimilar?

Human history says we are. There has never been a Shangri-La where all races of all faiths live happily ever after. Even in the cradle of modern multiculturalism, the USA, racial/cultural tension still exists between certain groups. If I've learned anything in my 25 years of life is that human beings tend to look towards the things that differentiate us from others, not the things that we have in common. Us versus them has been ingrained in the human psyche since our beginnings and I doubt it will go away any time soon.

Firstly I didn't mean to put that bit in bold. That was an accident and it looks stupid. Anyway...

I would suggest that is more a notion of "me versus everyone else" which is just good old natural competitiveness. I disagree that it is beyond the wit of man for people to cooperate and live together for it is that cooperation which allowed mankind to overcome great natural obstacles than the paltry "me versus everyone else" instinct has held back so many other species.

I didn't say it would be some free living paradise though. People are shitty, as you have correctly pointed out. Poor people particularly so. People will argue and fight and cry victim over any petty bullshit until the sun swallows the earth and you will have those problems whether you have multiculturalism or not. If for no other reason than culture is not a static thing.

Even in a society where we're all the same colour and all go to the same church we'll have different beliefs and sub-cultures that will rail against one another. That friction, that strife, is part of what provides the passion which drives culture forward. All I'm trying to say is that diversity is a good thing and if you want to minimise the ugly side of strife then you need representation of the different communities in the political and cultural narrative.

What is the alternative anyway? Monoculture? Doesn't that just sound awfully boring to you?

PercyBoleyn:

And yet the black community is still in poverty, so what does that tell you about black people?

To quote Christ Rock, black people are rich, not wealthy. When they do get ahead in life, they spend on themselves and they rarely give back to their community. I mean, being a gangsta/hustler/pimp in the hood is actually a goal for many blacks. Those that get away from the ghetto are those that stay in school or are really good at sports.

PercyBoleyn:
There are numerous organizations that fight for Roma rights.

And their results are...

If we talk about leaders, you can count them on one hand and they are hardly visible in the media or in ground zero. How many gypsies know about Ciprian Necula?

PercyBoleyn:
Yes, and all it took was the Hollocaust to get the West to accept them. Incidentally, did you know the Jews are just as isolationist as the Roma when it comes to their culture and customs?

Gypsies has their own mini Holocaust in WW2 where anywhere from 200,000 to one million died.

We have two groups, both isolationist, both hated throughout history in Europe and subjected to horrors, driven from one country to another. One made something of itself, the other did not. Why is that?

PercyBoleyn:
You're like President Shit-For-Brains except he actually made something of himself.

Are you talking about current Shit for Brains or past one? :)

PercyBoleyn:
Because the Turks were never oppressed on the same scale the Roma and African Americans were.

Yes, but they had us under their heel for hundreds of years, nothing major in what was to be Romania happened without the Ottomans approving it. In theory, this racist country should have kicked all Turks out or at least made life miserable for them. But as it stands, we have about 35.000 in Constanta county and they rarely cause any sort of trouble. They have mosque in Constanta, one of the big private highschools in Constanta is Turkish funded(at least in part) and they are generally good people. I've lived in Constanta 18 years and most Turks I met were very friendly people. On the other side, all my encounters with gypsies were either them trying to beat up either me or my friends in order to take our money or gypsy women trying to scam me with palm reading. Having moved to Bucharest for almost 7 years now, the situation is exactly the same as far as gypsies are concerned. When I went to Ardeal(Turda) to my brother in law's parents, same s**t. Who knows, perhaps I only met the bad gypsies of their kind though considering their reputation, I doubt it.

predatorpulse7:
Human history says we are. There has never been a Shangri-La where all races of all faiths live happily ever after. Even in the cradle of modern multiculturalism, the USA, racial/cultural tension still exists between certain groups.

The US is about as monocultural and conformistic as a country of that size can possibly be. If you want multiculturalism, you need the western Europe of the '90's.

But it doesn't change your argument's correctness, because there too, there were and are massive problems with different ethnic groups in that region and time as well.

PercyBoleyn:
Yeah, you can call it into question for as long as you'd like. I live here, I'm very much aware of the Romas situation and my appartment is 10 minutes away from a ghetto. Don't fucking pull that bullshit again. You claimed something, I asked you for proof. If you can't provide it then you're not only wrong but you lied, plain and simple.

So because something exists, that proves your far fetched generalising idea of how it came to be is correct? No, it doesn't work like that.

The fact that a gypsy ghetto exists somewhere doesn't change any of the facts underlying the own guilt the various gypsy groups have to their marginal existance. For one thing, ethnic groups naturally cling together, and even more so if they hate outsiders. Both are present in the case of gypsies. So there's one completely self-explaining reason that has nothing to do with discrimination, outside of discrimination against others by hypsies, that is.

PercyBoleyn:
It took the Hollocaust for the Jews to stop being discriminated against.

Hahaha, funny. It wasn't three years ago I was listening to a demonstration by some Moroccan and extremist socialist scumbags screaming "Hamas! Hamas! All Jews must be gassed!".

Jews weren't very discriminated against originally. This came with Christianity, or better said, it came with religion. The Jews were a religious minority, and those are generally off pretty badly. Besides, the Jewish community was also highly turned in on itself, much like it still is today, and that helps contribute to segregation and resentment. Unknown makes unloved.
A much lighter version of what is the case with the various gypsy peoples who exclude themselves from society, and then complain they're excluded from society.

To name two examples, most Jews in my country today live a life quite separate from the rest of society. Own schools, no interaction in synagogues, heavily concentrated in one city in a few neighbourhoods... And it's a widely carried annoyance to the general public that Jewish organisations scream anti-semitism at anything bigger than a fart.

Yes, there are real anti-semites, like pro-Palestinians and racist Muslims, but because the term is so overused it becomes an annoyance. Most recent example: Günter Grass. (if you haven't read anything by him, alt+f4 right now and go do so)

He wrote a sort of poem in which he dubs Israel a danger to world peace. Bollocks of course, Iran and the Palestinians are the agressors in the conflict Grass refers to, but Jewish organisations called him an anti-semite over it. While Jews, Israelis and the state of Israel are still three different things.

So once again your entire theory seems to fail.

PercyBoleyn:

Tubez:
And it doesnt matter how long you have been living there. I cannot just go up to a house and live there for one year and then say it's my house.

Yeah, it's not that easy. You can't just evict them and tell them to fuck off, then they'll just end up on the streets again. The reason why they were homeless in the first place should have been addressed.

Tubez:
I even gave you a book about the subject, but I guess it's easier to ignore that then face reality?

And books cannot make unfounded claims. Where did the author get all that information? How does he know for sure that what he says is true? I'm asking you for actual studies, not claims.

Then perhaps you should follow those little marking he/she have made since I guess they explain his sources?

But again I guess it's easier to ignore something and simply say its has a bias or something like that. I'm sure I'm guilty of it as well.

And yes you can just evict somebody from a private property. That is why it's called a private property.

Bertylicious:

predatorpulse7:

Bertylicious:

Besides, apart from ultra-conservatives, who're really just authoritarian dickheads in different hats, are we all really so dissimilar?

Human history says we are. There has never been a Shangri-La where all races of all faiths live happily ever after. Even in the cradle of modern multiculturalism, the USA, racial/cultural tension still exists between certain groups. If I've learned anything in my 25 years of life is that human beings tend to look towards the things that differentiate us from others, not the things that we have in common. Us versus them has been ingrained in the human psyche since our beginnings and I doubt it will go away any time soon.

Firstly I didn't mean to put that bit in bold. That was an accident and it looks stupid. Anyway...

I would suggest that is more a notion of "me versus everyone else" which is just good old natural competitiveness. I disagree that it is beyond the wit of man for people to cooperate and live together for it is that cooperation which allowed mankind to overcome great natural obstacles than the paltry "me versus everyone else" instinct has held back so many other species.

I didn't say it would be some free living paradise though. People are shitty, as you have correctly pointed out. Poor people particularly so. People will argue and fight and cry victim over any petty bullshit until the sun swallows the earth and you will have those problems whether you have multiculturalism or not. If for no other reason than culture is not a static thing.

Even in a society where we're all the same colour and all go to the same church we'll have different beliefs and sub-cultures that will rail against one another. That friction, that strife, is part of what provides the passion which drives culture forward. All I'm trying to say is that diversity is a good thing and if you want to minimise the ugly side of strife then you need representation of the different communities in the political and cultural narrative.

What is the alternative anyway? Monoculture? Doesn't that just sound awfully boring to you?

There is no such things as monoculture, even the most homogenous nations on earth like the Japanese have their minorities. Even if the government doesn't recognize them in some countries, they still exist and effect on the general population and culture as they try to "melt" into the country. There are ridiculous cases, like the Greeks, who almost have no minorities according to their officials, almost everybody is greek and that's it.

That being said, in most European countries, a dominant culture/national identity, whatever you wanna call it, does exist. The racial clashes come only when the minorities act unruly on a large scale(and I think the gypsy example is pretty good for most of Europe), when certain aspects of minorities culture tend to dominate more "traditional" ones(and the new will always be more lauded than the old) but most of all when certain aspects of the clashing cultures are simply incompatible. See the whole veil controversy in France for a good example. Historical animosity is also a very good example since it can leave deep scars.

When I went to Greece in 2000, we had a Romanian of Turkish origin with us and in Athens we saw a couple of bars that actually had out front signs "no turks allowed" and a guy in the street shouted at us in a violent manner when he heard our guy talking in Turkish on his cell phone. I can't imagine how a Turkish minority could live in Greece.

Guess I'am late to the party here....

Time for a wall of text!

The problem with this debate is that it has become substantially emotionally charged. Not least because the very topic has been instrumented by right-wing populists and receives a lot of opinionated media feedback. Handling a debate like this, skews the perception of the problem and polarizes, making it more about a clash of beliefs than finding a solution.

My personal thoughts about the situation in Germany are similar. Undisputedly, there is a problem concerning people with migrant background [1]. Case in point, a graphic issued by the "Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung" a state organization, which used data from the national statistics office. It compares the total population percentage to employment and education. The most interesting factors herein are "Erwerbslose" (Unemployed), "Sozialhilfe" (Living on social welfare) and "Ohne Schulabschluss" (not having finished school) which differ significantly from the numbers for the population without migrant background. Note, however, that the graph uses data from 2005 so its not entirely accurate for today.

Still, decrying the existence of immigrants by using some cloudy notions of culture and whatnot[2] is just shorthand for ones own xenophobia and conservative attitudes and adds nothing substantial to the debate.

As I have made abundantly clear in other threads, the core about integration in Germany should be about educational policy. Only education can provide the vertical mobility and contact with other cultures that can rectify this problem in the long run. And this is where improvements need to happen: for instance, the three part school system used around here, has been repeatedly decried by the OECD as discriminating children with migrant backgrounds.

Fortunately, progress has happened fueled by a disastrous result in an international study called PISA for the German school system back in 2001. Educational policy has been revamped and each state (education is handled stateside and not by the federal administration) tried new things and, for the most part, improved their performance. And this seems to have also had a positive effect on children with migration backgrounds as indicated in this article (unfortunately in german).

As for further developments, I think some form of quotas for children with migrant backgrounds at schools could also be beneficial. It would combat some of the negative effects of ghettoization as it would allow the children to come in contact with children with non-migrant backgrounds.

----

Now for the point which I actually wanted to give some thought with this post: For some reason, this whole immigration debate is something pan-european and not restricted to specific countries. In fact, the relevance of this topic also coincides with the rise of nationalistic right-wing parties throughout the whole of Europe.[3]

Now for the million-dollar question: Why?

I personally can't shake the feeling that this whole focus on immigration as a problem is not the sole reason for this rise of nationalistic populism but only a part of something more profound: A rising general distrust and criticism of the established parties and the general direction of the states in question previously unheard of. In fact, big established parties throughout the whole of Europe have shed voters for years now. Or, around here, the Pirate Party who has only been around for like 5 years or so has risen in recent national polls up to margins around twelve percent, making them the fourth and, in some polls, even third largest party in Germany. They aren't even populist or right wing and completely lack any defined political direction except for standing for freedom in the Internet. Thus, I can't help but feel that their strongest asset is, in fact, being against the establishment.

This article about popular EU resentment also makes some mentions of the actual reasons for these developments. I'd personally stress two in particular:

  • Globalization: Not one development in the world can compare to the impact of Globalization. The economic and cultural stress that it creates will shape the world for years to come. Undoubtedly the economic pressure on Europe through new competition from developing countries made and still makes hard decisions and reforms necessary. These unpopular policies feed into this notion of distrust and create an atmosphere of uncertainty which can be readily exploited by populists.
  • Internal Forces: The end of the cold war, rising societal atomization and memory of the second war fading into distance with the decades all contribute to this point. In essence every single one of those points removed some way of defining identity and orientation - from the familial up to the European level. It is clear to me that losing these structures might make up the ground for nationalistic populists who can provide orientation in a more and more complex and less structured society.

So...I wonder if anyone agrees with the second part of my post here....

[1] A side note I copy pasted from one of my other posts: I hate to label those people as immigrants. We should get this straight: the people we are talking about do have (in most cases) their host countries nationality. The only thing different is that they have an immigration background - they aren't immigrants anymore and belong to the country they are in. In Germany, even our late President implied as much in his inauguration speech.
[2] I recall the term "Christliches Abendland" (Christian occident) being used far too often for my tastes
[3] Some perspective can be found in this small article from the economist which looks at the situation in northern Europe in particular

Dajosch:
snip

Going on your second part, the impression that I have is that Europe is going through the same issues that America went through when European immigrants started coming over. Divisions of parties and a rise of nationalism and dislike of immigrants.

predatorpulse7:

Bertylicious:

predatorpulse7:

snip

snip (can't believe I bolded again. Makes me look like a tosser)

There is no such things as monoculture, even the most homogenous nations on earth like the Japanese have their minorities. Even if the government doesn't recognize them in some countries, they still exist and effect on the general population and culture as they try to "melt" into the country. There are ridiculous cases, like the Greeks, who almost have no minorities according to their officials, almost everybody is greek and that's it.

That being said, in most European countries, a dominant culture/national identity, whatever you wanna call it, does exist. The racial clashes come only when the minorities act unruly on a large scale(and I think the gypsy example is pretty good for most of Europe), when certain aspects of minorities culture tend to dominate more "traditional" ones(and the new will always be more lauded than the old) but most of all when certain aspects of the clashing cultures are simply incompatible. See the whole veil controversy in France for a good example. Historical animosity is also a very good example since it can leave deep scars.

When I went to Greece in 2000, we had a Romanian of Turkish origin with us and in Athens we saw a couple of bars that actually had out front signs "no turks allowed" and a guy in the street shouted at us in a violent manner when he heard our guy talking in Turkish on his cell phone. I can't imagine how a Turkish minority could live in Greece.

That sucks but I don't really see how it knocks multiculturalism into a cocked hat. It just seems to show that the Greeks are rubbish at it.

Dajosch:
snip

That all seems pretty reasonable, not to mention backed up with graphs and shit.

Blablahb:
So because something exists, that proves your far fetched generalising idea of how it came to be is correct? No, it doesn't work like that.

I was right. How funny.

Blablahb:
The fact that a gypsy ghetto exists somewhere doesn't change any of the facts underlying the own guilt the various gypsy groups have to their marginal existance. For one thing, ethnic groups naturally cling together, and even more so if they hate outsiders. Both are present in the case of gypsies. So there's one completely self-explaining reason that has nothing to do with discrimination, outside of discrimination against others by hypsies, that is.

Yes, because Romas choose to live in ghettos. To say that there's no correlation between poverty and ghettos is to ignore reality, something which you often seem to do be it on the issue of immigration, pot or whatever other bullshit you feel the need to spout your baseless opinion on.

Blablahb:
Hahaha, funny. It wasn't three years ago I was listening to a demonstration by some Moroccan and extremist socialist scumbags screaming "Hamas! Hamas! All Jews must be gassed!"..

OH LOOK ANOTHER STORY THOSE ARE ALWAYS ENTERTAINING AND FAIR PLEASE TELL ME MORE I ENJOY LISTENING

Blablahb:
Jews weren't very discriminated against originally. This came with Christianity, or better said, it came with religion. The Jews were a religious minority, and those are generally off pretty badly. Besides, the Jewish community was also highly turned in on itself, much like it still is today, and that helps contribute to segregation and resentment.

Yeah, I'm not going to get into a discussion about Jewish discrimination. Suffice to say, the Hollocaust played a big part in helping with the discrimination they faced.

Blablahb:
So once again your entire theory seems to fail.

Really? What theory? That your entire argument boils down to anectodes? Tstorm was right about you.

Tubez:
Then perhaps you should follow those little marking he/she have made since I guess they explain his sources?

Tubez:
But again I guess it's easier to ignore something and simply say its has a bias or something like that. I'm sure I'm guilty of it as well.

I asked you to provide me with studies, you gave me a book and told me to look for it.

Tubez:

And yes you can just evict somebody from a private property. That is why it's called a private property.

Yeah, it's not that simple. I've already explained it to you.

predatorpulse7:
To quote Christ Rock, black people are rich, not wealthy. When they do get ahead in life, they spend on themselves and they rarely give back to their community. I mean, being a gangsta/hustler/pimp in the hood is actually a goal for many blacks. Those that get away from the ghetto are those that stay in school or are really good at sports.

And you wonder why people call you a racist?

predatorpulse7:
And their results are...

If we talk about leaders, you can count them on one hand and they are hardly visible in the media.

http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/h.j.m.vanbaar/page3.html

Have even more fun.

predatorpulse7:
Gypsies has their own mini Holocaust in WW2 where anywhere from 200,000 to one million died.

It's estimated that more Roma's than Jews were killed during the Hollocaust. Unfortunately, only the Jews "reaped the benefits".

predatorpulse7:
Are you talking about current Shit for Brains or past one? :)

I was actually talking about Bush. I quite like our current President since, you know, it's either him or whatever other insane power hungry asshole this country can spit out.

predatorpulse7:
Yes, but they had us under their heel for hundreds of years, nothing major in what was to be Romania happened without the Ottomans approving it. In theory, this racist country should have kicked all Turks out or at least made life miserable for them.

What the Ottoman Empire did is not comparable to the way Romas and black people were treated.

PercyBoleyn:

Tubez:
Then perhaps you should follow those little marking he/she have made since I guess they explain his sources?

Tubez:
But again I guess it's easier to ignore something and simply say its has a bias or something like that. I'm sure I'm guilty of it as well.

I asked you to provide me with studies, you gave me a book and told me to look for it.

Tubez:

And yes you can just evict somebody from a private property. That is why it's called a private property.

Yeah, it's not that simple. I've already explained it to you.

You didnt ask me for studies.

Quote from you
"Any evidence for that?"

I gave you a bbc article which support my position, I gave you a book with sources and the author has listed the sources.

And it is as simple as that.
You have no right to steal another persons property simply cause you have no place to live.
Sure it would be great if the state was able to give them a place to stay, but I guess it's not as simple as that since it costs money and I guess if they put any strings attached to staying there, some people would ignore it.

Tubez:
I gave you a bbc article which support my position

And I gave you four. Or gave Volf, who knows. The point is I did.

Tubez:
I gave you a book with sources and the author has listed the sources.

Feel free to list them anytime you feel like it.

Tubez:
You have no right to steal another persons property simply cause you have no place to live.

Again, not that simple.

PercyBoleyn:

Tubez:
I gave you a bbc article which support my position

And I gave you four. Or gave Volf, who knows. The point is I did.

Tubez:
I gave you a book with sources and the author has listed the sources.

Feel free to list them anytime you feel like it.

Tubez:
You have no right to steal another persons property simply cause you have no place to live.

Again, not that simple.

Where did you give me any sources saying that gypsies do not marry young?

Feel free to look them up on the book I linked you.

Again, it is that simple.

Do not bother responding to the housing thingy unless it's something else then "It's not that simple" please.

Bertylicious:

That all seems pretty reasonable, not to mention backed up with graphs and shit.

That makes me glad. I like keeping my theories consistent and try to back up whatever claims I make (if I can be bothered that is).

Volf:
Going on your second part, the impression that I have is that Europe is going through the same issues that America went through when European immigrants started coming over. Divisions of parties and a rise of nationalism and dislike of immigrants.

Interesting. But because I'am not well versed in interior politics of the US in the 19th/early 20th century I have to ask what specific party divisions and nationalistic policies happened during that time period.

Also, wasn't this notion of the melting-pot part of the national identity right from its founding days? Personally, I would guess that this somehow limits these kinds of effects. Then again, the whole Illegal-Immigration debate going on in your country right now wouldn't be there either if that factor would play a huge role.

Then, one could ask if there were similar any external factors (like Globalization today) that might have played a role here, too.

Dajosch:
snip

The movie Gangs of New York show a pretty good idea of how European immigrants were treated. Heck, if you look back towards the original KKK, they hated non-Protestant, non-"Natives". Here is a little bit of info on you Nativism movements. Being German yourself, the discrimination that German-Americans faced, might interest you. As for US political parties, here is one in particular that was anti-Catholic and anti-immigrants.

As for illegal immigration in this country, thats a different issue. From what I gather most[1] people are not going for a nativism movement, they(and me) just want people to come here legally.

[1] there are some racist, I can't deny that but it doesn't represent most people

Bertylicious:

predatorpulse7:

generals3:

Actually there are two kinds of multiculturalism. The meltpot multiculturalism and the mozaic one. The meltpot is a multiculturalism that actually favors one culture that is tolerant towards many different cultural traits. This is the European multiculturalism, you allow people to be christians, atheists, gay, muslims, etc. But you don't allow people to keep a lifestyle that is against our norms. The Mozaic one simply tells everyone you can keep your culture, and that is the Canadian multiculturalism where you can for instance find weird religious denominations which sometimes even get special privileges because of their culture. This doesn't work in Europe, everyone is equal to the law, the law allows a certain liberty and freedom that allows certain cultural traits to coexist but certain have to go because they are against our norms.

Personally i have no faith in a mozaic multiculturalism in a European setting, where people all live close to each other and where there are strong national cultures that have been built over centuries of history.

Congrats on your post and on your realism towards the situation of multiculturalism in Europe.

Surely though the Canadian "mosaic" has more to do with the fact much of it was colonised by the British and Quebec and other areas by the French. One imagines that this state of affairs resulted in an environment where variances in the legal structure could occur, but that is a peripheral consideration. Naturally the laws of the land are the laws of the land and such things must be observed by all to ensure a stable framework for people to live in.

Cutting a long story short; I don't really see how that is much of a problem. Immigration of peoples with radically different belief systems has been something of a long observed theme within Europe and, while there is strife and difficulty, these have not proven to be insurmountable problems where proper respect, representation and understanding are observed.

Besides, apart from ultra-conservatives, who're really just authoritarian dickheads in different hats, are we all really so dissimilar?

Well one could say the same could apply to Belgium where there is a certain difference between the Flemish and Walloon culture (which has actually sparked tensions just like in Canada with Quebec). But we still don't want a mozaic like multiculturalism. My guess is that Canada simply doesn't have a culture, afterall many are of dutch, french, english, irish, etc. decent and thus even what could be seen as the "typical white Canadian" has different roots and backgrounds. On top of that there is lots of space in Canada that can be used as a buffer zone between different cultures. For instance you have native reserves which are in a way closed off the rest, you also have Huderite colonies which are again segregated from the rest. Meanwhile in Europe most different cultures live next to each other and this can create clashes.

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