Petitions for secession in 15 states

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Hammartroll:
The thing that confuses me about liberals is that they think impossible things can happen, like spending yourself out of debt, but the possible things that would simply require a good amount of hard work and sacrifice, like making an independent Texas successful, are impossible.

I'll tell you what Texas, if you can succeed peacefully, I'll strongly consider moving there. What a grand experiment it would be, I'd love to see if it would work.

With the cooperation of the United States, Texas could secede quite successfully. Without that cooperation, there are major roadblocks to that experiment succeeding. Even short of an armed invasion the US government could make the life of a independent Texas Republic quite painful.

Hammartroll:

GunsmithKitten:

Hop-along Nussbaum:
Incidentally, if Texas were to become it's own country, I would seriously consider moving there.

You don't come off as a Christian fundamentalist variety of conservative. You likely would not be welcome.

you should stop being so prejudice

Works for conservatives, it can work for me too.

Its nice to see people reading, it really is.

There is no law or regulation regarding secession in the US. There has been case law and it has been determined that Unilateral secession is illegal, but there is not a pathway to secession as determined by the federal government.

The 25,000 signature petition is a brain child of the Obama administration. There is a section of the White House official website which allows people to post petitions for items they would like considered.. President Obama has promissed to address any petition with over 25,000 signatures.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

That's it, that's the whole thing. Its not 25,000 people and we get to leave, or put a measure on the ballot, or anything even close to that. All 25,000 signatures gets you is an official comment by the president. Who's official comment should be "Dear God don't you people have better things to do with your lives, the country survived 8 years of Bush the second, if you can survive 8 years of him you can survive 8 years of me."

As far as the whole Texas thing... I have to imagine the majority of Texans don't want to leave. The majority of Texas' elected officals most likely want to stay in the union, and those stats probably hold true for any other state who has citizens who have started these petitions. None of this is serious, its all just a little bit of whinging and it will die down soon enough.

Not G. Ivingname:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wh-petition-calls-stripping-citizenship-and-exile-anyone-who-signs-petition-secede_663282.html

A new petition has been made, saying that anyone who signs a state succession petition should be stripped of their citizenship.

I really wish I was kidding on that one.

We really wish we were kidding about the subject of this thread.

SO...I guess you fight one stupid, pointless, ridiculous, and unrealistic idea with another, yah?

Call me when they start a referendum and get close to 50% of support. Until than this whole issue is just a non-issue.

DVS BSTrD:
That's an amazing story: Sherman had friends!?!

Yep, General Joseph E. Johnston became a good friend of Sherman after the war was over. In fact, at Sherman's funeral, it was raining and cold out and he was told to put his hat on (he was serving as a pallbearer and kept his hat off out of respect) for his own health, he simply looked at the man who told him to and said "If I were in his place and he were standing here in mine, he would not put on his hat." and continued to carry Sherman's casket without his hat, this lead to him catching a cold which developed into Pneumonia and dying a few weeks after. Still, I can say with a bit of pride that he acted with honor and integrity fitting a man of his status.

Captcha: "Pay the ferryman"

I assume the captcha believes that the good general paid to cross the River Styx soon after.

pyrate:

spartan231490:

pyrate:
[quote="spartan231490" post="528.393597.15921589"]

snip

You don't realize how big states are do you? Texas has the 15th largest economy of countries if you consider it to be one, big enough to handle itself. I'll post sources later, if I do it now I'll be late for my test, I get done with classes in 9 hours.

The size does not matter. In 25 years China will in all likelihood have an economy exceeding $25 trillion, they will still be heavily dependent on trade with other countries around the world to maintain their economy and standard of living.

The only way a US state could sustain itself is if it left peacefully and maintained a majority of the trade relationships it had when it was a part of the US.

One other aspect that should not be ignored, the will of the people. How many people in Texas would move to the US and how many people from the US would move to Texas? Depending on the way a state leaves they could face a massive net loss of population. How do you think Texas would go if it lost 10% of its population, 15%, 20%?

The entire 'State X would be fine leaving the US' argument is akin to the 'government doesn't do anything for me' argument. Many people simply do not have a grasp of how entangled the system is with day to day life. You cannot tear away from the system in place and expect things to be all fine and dandy, there is going to be a considerable period of things going to shit while a new system is implemented.

No, it's not akin to the gov't doesn't do anything for me argument. Texas is responsible for a massive portion of the US GDP. Not trading with texas would cripple the US economy more than not trading with the US would cripple the Texan economy. Remember, the US is already trillions in debt, the Texan economy would be brand new and not in any debt, and with their large preduction capabilities of valuable resources such as oil, they wouldn't get stuck in a debt trap by deficit spending. The world needs the oil drilled and refined in Texas because of the global economic dependence on oil, and the already teetering global economy.

The Texan chunk of refining is continually growing due to a move towards more consolidation and less competition in US oil refining, and proximity to the wells. It was over 27% in 2011, the 50% figure was in a page I came across in the last couple days, it talked about one of the top 5 refiners in the US closing it's doors in Philadelphia this last June. I think this was probably an exahgeration or even a lie, but even with only 27%, that is still more than enough leverage to break any trade sanction or embargo. Not to mention Texan cattle farms providing more than enough food and Texas also leads the nation in cattle and cereal production by state, producing more than enough to feed and cloth it's own people. Texas also is a leader in alternative energy, having the most wind power of any state, as well as wave generation and solar. Even if we tried to withhold water, they could just build desalinization plants.

This means they have massive leverage, they can trade at a "crippling" loss and still "break even" on getting what they need. Now also realize how much losing those valuable imports and tax money would hurt the already failing US economy. Texas exports more than any other state in the Union, meaning that their economy is more robust than that of the rest of the nation. It's a race that Texas can last in longer than the US, at least potentially. Now take a look at the petitions and see that major producers of the commodities they need(georgia, alabama, and louisiana) also have popular petitions, possibly bypassing any sanction or embargo entirely. Also note that those states are in a connected strip and the odds further increase.

As for will of the people, a phenomenally small number of people in the US go through the effort even to vote, now imagine how many would move over a regime change with a relatively small number of associated changes. Also, judging from the number of votes and the number of states, Texas is much more likely to see a population gain, which the US can't stand for, even as a remote possibility, so they would almost certainly seal the border. Ingress/egress would only be significant if it came to war, and the American people would never stand for it if the US army moved first, and as I've pointed out, texas probably wouldn't need to make the first move.

It all comes down to what texas does, if it goes to a vote and texas decides to secede, then there isn't really anything that the US government can do to stop them, short of wholesale slaughter of texans, which would just be the begining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas

GunsmithKitten:

Hammartroll:

GunsmithKitten:

You don't come off as a Christian fundamentalist variety of conservative. You likely would not be welcome.

you should stop being so prejudice

Works for conservatives, it can work for me too.

You must not be familiar with good, old-fashioned, country folks. If you mind your business and you're not a judgmental prick, you can usually fit in anywhere. It's the nosy people that ask too many questions that they generally don't like.

Witty Name Here:

DVS BSTrD:
That's an amazing story: Sherman had friends!?!

Yep, General Joseph E. Johnston became a good friend of Sherman after the war was over. In fact, at Sherman's funeral, it was raining and cold out and he was told to put his hat on (he was serving as a pallbearer and kept his hat off out of respect) for his own health, he simply looked at the man who told him to and said "If I were in his place and he were standing here in mine, he would not put on his hat." and continued to carry Sherman's casket without his hat, this lead to him catching a cold which developed into Pneumonia and dying a few weeks after. Still, I can say with a bit of pride that he acted with honor and integrity fitting a man of his status.

Captcha: "Pay the ferryman"

I assume the captcha believes that the good general paid to cross the River Styx soon after.

Huh I remember that story, but not the particular individuals involved. So you're Johnston's great-great-great-great something or other?

Hammartroll:
The thing that confuses me about liberals is that they think impossible things can happen, like spending yourself out of debt, but the possible things that would simply require a good amount of hard work and sacrifice, like making an independent Texas successful, are impossible.

I'll tell you what Texas, if you can succeed peacefully, I'll strongly consider moving there. What a grand experiment it would be, I'd love to see if it would work.

"Spending our way out of debt?" Yeah, WE were the ones who decided to invade another country without a means of paying for the war. And how much would the rich have to sacrifice? You know, those people who can actually afford to pay more money? Sure an independent and successful Texas is possible, but not with the corporate whore, gun happy, bible thumping clowns they keep electing to run the place.

BiscuitTrouser:

Nielas:

bleys2487:
Texas has over 70,000 signatures on their petition.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-texas-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/BmdWCP8B

I'm from South Carolina. I'm a daughter of the Confederacy. I had family serve the C.S.A.

I am in no way saying I want a war or anything like that. I don't think people realize how awful they are and can be.

I just think it's very interesting that this is happening and really should be addressed. And no, not just a sit down and shut up comment. This country is divided. People should take something as serious as succession, well, seriously.

edit: More than 15 have petitioned too. Just taking the list off of the site where the original first petition done by Louisiana was done.

1. Wisconsin
2. Utah
3. Ohio
4. South Dakota
5. Virginia
6. Nebraska
7. Pennsylvania
8. Kansas
9. Oklahoma
10. Wyoming
11. California
12. New York
13. Delaware
14. Arizona
15. Arkansas
16. South Carolina
17. Georgia
18. Missouri
19. Tennessee
20. Michigan
21. Oregon
22. New Jersey
23. North Dakota
24. Montana
25. Indiana
26. Mississippi
27. Kentucky
28. Florida
29. North Carolina
30. Alabama
31. Texas - 25,000 mark reached
32. Louisiana - 25,000 mark reached

As a cynical Internet user, I really do not have much faith in petitions like this. Singing a petition is a very non-binding way to express your disapproval. It is pretty much a given that the petition will be ignored by the government. Are the people who signed the petition actually willing to do anything 'real' about it? Will they form a secession party and run their own candidates in the next election? Are they going to push for a referendum on this? Or maybe even go as far as blow up some federal buildings to prove they are serious?

At this point there does not seem to be much more weight behind this than a petition to save a TV show from cancellation.

I wonder how eager all those signature owners will be if someone turns up and says "You're part of the secession army now, here's your rifle, lets fight for succession you put your name down after all?" I imagine the list will shrink a great deal.

This is silly. The MAJORITY of the state needs to want it before it becomes an indipendent. Which is why democrat strongholds are part of the list. Anyone can START a petition. When one hits the 50% mark let me know, THATS news. I could start a petition now to declare war on France. It means very little.

You forget, the kind of people who would sign these petitions are the ones who have been WAITING for an excuse to take up arms against the government

Hop-along Nussbaum:

GunsmithKitten:

Hammartroll:

you should stop being so prejudice

Works for conservatives, it can work for me too.

You must not be familiar with good, old-fashioned, country folks. If you mind your business and you're not a judgmental prick, you can usually fit in anywhere. It's the nosy people that ask too many questions that they generally don't like.

You mean questions like: "Can we put some Topac on the radio?"
Or "Why do you need so many guns?"
Or a guy asking if he can bring his boy-friend over for dinner?

Hammartroll:
The thing that confuses me about liberals is that they think impossible things can happen, like spending yourself out of debt, but the possible things that would simply require a good amount of hard work and sacrifice, like making an independent Texas successful, are impossible.

I'll tell you what Texas, if you can succeed peacefully, I'll strongly consider moving there. What a grand experiment it would be, I'd love to see if it would work.

It's not about, "Spending yourself out of debt." It's about investing in the economy, in order to help it grow, and then using the resulting increased tax revenue to pay off the debt. It's not that complicated, it just focuses on the long term, rather than economic conservatism's short term.

And FYI, liberals are not a hive mind, we don't all believe exactly the same thing.

Agema:
The almost certain reality is that an independent Texas and the USA would continue to be good friends. Texas would simply become part of NAFTA or some other form of free trade association, and economic life will for the most part continue very much as normal. The USA would continue to use Texan oil refineries, Texan ports, and at negligibly (if at all) different cost.

But at a different cost. My point stands.

Besides, the future of oil production is oil shale - most of which is well outside Texas - and oil is likely to become a diminishing percentage of energy generation.

Texas still produces a huge amount of the chemicals for the US. And even if oil drilling goes down Texas has more petrochemical plants, refineries, etc than any other state.

I can find that according to the Texas governor's office, Texas exported $251 billion in 2011. Its imports from the 10 highest source countries was $281 billion; so that's a deficit. In terms of Mexico, it's about $90 billion out, $175 billion in, meaning Mexico sells about twice as much to Texas as Texas does to Mexico.

Did you include exports to other states?

I would guess offhand it's probably healthy, simply due to oil if nothing else. In general terms, Texas has about 8.5% of the population of the USA, and about 8.5% of the economy. Which suggests it's pretty average.

You are a little low. Texas' GDP is about 1/11th of the total for the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP#2010_List

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Texas: I think it would have a good chance of going it's own way successfully if it chose. I'm just pointing out that the USA would get along fine too. Texas might be an economically valuable part of the USA, but it is surely not vital.

I understand but I do not believe that any entity can lose 10% of its GDP and be in great shape.

Elcarsh:
Here's the problem; it has absolutely damn all to do with them thinking the system has failed. It's about them throwing a childish tantrum over the other guy winning the election.

How do you know? The Texas secessionist movement has been going on for over a century.

If they really thought the system sucked, they would've been petitioning to secede when George W. Bush won. Oh, right, they didn't, because all this comes down to is that the only problem that they see with the system is that it's legal for people who disagree with them to actually win the election.

The Texas secessionist movement has filed for secession every election for the past couple of decades.

Hop-along Nussbaum:

You must not be familiar with good, old-fashioned, country folks.

image

Born and raised southwest Virginian, got blood in the coal mines on both sides of my family from West Virginia and Kentucky.

Not familiar with country folks? Bitch, PLEASE. I watched the documentary "Harlan County, KY" and recognized freaking family members and locations personally. I know the hills, hollars, and coal roads out here. I know where the snake handling preachers are, where the buildings that are still standing from the freaking CIVIL WAR are, where the juke joints and roadhouses are that you should and shouldn't go, and I can probably STILL find where about 3 of my family line's old stills are.

If you mind your business and you're not a judgmental prick, you can usually fit in anywhere. It's the nosy people that ask too many questions that they generally don't like

Or anyone that doesn't fit in and seems strange.

spartan231490:

It all comes down to what texas does, if it goes to a vote and texas decides to secede, then there isn't really anything that the US government can do to stop them, short of wholesale slaughter of texans, which would just be the begining.

Oh but SURELY us weak non-Texans could surely not take on the Texas master race, considering their quite certain superior...well, everything...over the rest of us!

GunsmithKitten:

spartan231490:

It all comes down to what texas does, if it goes to a vote and texas decides to secede, then there isn't really anything that the US government can do to stop them, short of wholesale slaughter of texans, which would just be the begining.

Oh but SURELY us weak non-Texans could surely not take on the Texas master race, considering their quite certain superior...well, everything...over the rest of us!

Except that Americans don't appreciate when our government slaughters innocent people. You don't understand, Texas wouldn't start a war with us, in order to beat them the US would have to start a war with them, all for what? Power lust? Greed? If Texas does secede, and we start a war over it, I'm gonna go fight beside my true brothers in Texas, and I won't be alone. The 70 million legal firearms owners in the US far far outnumber the military.

"And so it came to pass, the most stupid country in the world was born." - If this ever happens and I am not alive to see it, somebody PLEASE say this on my behalf.

spartan231490:

GunsmithKitten:

spartan231490:

It all comes down to what texas does, if it goes to a vote and texas decides to secede, then there isn't really anything that the US government can do to stop them, short of wholesale slaughter of texans, which would just be the begining.

Oh but SURELY us weak non-Texans could surely not take on the Texas master race, considering their quite certain superior...well, everything...over the rest of us!

Except that Americans don't appreciate when our government slaughters innocent people. You don't understand, Texas wouldn't start a war with us, in order to beat them the US would have to start a war with them, all for what? Power lust? Greed? If Texas does secede, and we start a war over it, I'm gonna go fight beside my true brothers in Texas, and I won't be alone. The 70 million legal firearms owners in the US far far outnumber the military.

Just let the Mexican Drug Cartel move in and watch them murder each other, then let Mexico move in and have what was theirs. Also, OOOOH GUNS... scary. Its not like the army has unmanned drones, tanks, guided missiles, etc. "Oh noes, whats that? A pistol? Dont scratch my tank, PLEASE!!!"

farson135:
snipped

You either ignored the points of my post or decided to forget reason and say texas is fucking texas of course it'll be fine.

Oh and fyi look at this pick because obviously you didn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zonmar-en.svg

No look again... still not seeing it? Oh alright 200 nautical miles is the EXCLUSIVE ECONOMIC ZONE.

Texas biggest problem? Full of people sticking their fingers in their ears and saying I can't hear you over my awesomeness.

generals3:
Call me when they start a referendum and get close to 50% of support. Until than this whole issue is just a non-issue.

I agree. This crap is about as serious as that stupid "Free Quebec" movement in Canada, and has just as much chance of succeeding. :P

spartan231490:

GunsmithKitten:

spartan231490:

It all comes down to what texas does, if it goes to a vote and texas decides to secede, then there isn't really anything that the US government can do to stop them, short of wholesale slaughter of texans, which would just be the begining.

Oh but SURELY us weak non-Texans could surely not take on the Texas master race, considering their quite certain superior...well, everything...over the rest of us!

Except that Americans don't appreciate when our government slaughters innocent people. You don't understand, Texas wouldn't start a war with us, in order to beat them the US would have to start a war with them, all for what? Power lust? Greed? If Texas does secede, and we start a war over it, I'm gonna go fight beside my true brothers in Texas, and I won't be alone. The 70 million legal firearms owners in the US far far outnumber the military.

And I'd regret not being able to be in the military for once where I could legally put a bullet in some fundie "I'm superior for the accident of my birth in a state" hides.

Oh, and hope those guns serve you well against drones, FAE's, bombs, metalstorm, and wacked out other toys that the military industrial complex has that we DON"T know about yet...

Kinguendo:

spartan231490:

GunsmithKitten:

Oh but SURELY us weak non-Texans could surely not take on the Texas master race, considering their quite certain superior...well, everything...over the rest of us!

Except that Americans don't appreciate when our government slaughters innocent people. You don't understand, Texas wouldn't start a war with us, in order to beat them the US would have to start a war with them, all for what? Power lust? Greed? If Texas does secede, and we start a war over it, I'm gonna go fight beside my true brothers in Texas, and I won't be alone. The 70 million legal firearms owners in the US far far outnumber the military.

Just let the Mexican Drug Cartel move in and watch them murder each other, then let Mexico move in and have what was theirs. Also, OOOOH GUNS... scary. Its not like the army has unmanned drones, tanks, guided missiles, etc. "Oh noes, whats that? A pistol? Dont scratch my tank, PLEASE!!!"

Not to mention I don't picture a bunch of Hank Hills as toughened, disciplined, or hardened as your average Taliban zealot....

Kinguendo:
"And so it came to pass, the most stupid country in the world was born." - If this ever happens and I am not alive to see it, somebody PLEASE say this on my behalf.

I'll do it with a soundtrack overlay, babe. No worries. ;)

GunsmithKitten:
How do you know? The Texas secessionist movement has been going on for over a century.

The Texas secessionist movement has filed for secession every election for the past couple of decades.

I'm sure they have. But I'm talking about texan republicans in general. Or are they getting this kind of support from the public every election?

Kinguendo:
"And so it came to pass, the most stupid country in the world was born." - If this ever happens and I am not alive to see it, somebody PLEASE say this on my behalf.

I'll do it in the style of Timothy Dalton (as Rassilon). Your words shall not die in vain!

Elcarsh:

GunsmithKitten:
How do you know? The Texas secessionist movement has been going on for over a century.

The Texas secessionist movement has filed for secession every election for the past couple of decades.

I'm sure they have. But I'm talking about texan republicans in general. Or are they getting this kind of support from the public every election?

Support from less than 1% of the states population? Probably. :P

New states to join in on the petitions
Washington State has joined and is at 650
Iowa is a 900
Maine is at 1,000
New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Illinois are at 3,000 apiece.

States that have passed the mark
Texas is at 94,299
Louisiana is at 32,614
Florida is at 28,294
Georgia is at 26,798
Alabama is at 26,071
Tennessee is at 25,890

And there are 10 more that are within 10,000 of that 25,000 mark to receive a response from the President.

BreakfastMan:

generals3:
Call me when they start a referendum and get close to 50% of support. Until than this whole issue is just a non-issue.

I agree. This crap is about as serious as that stupid "Free Quebec" movement in Canada, and has just as much chance of succeeding. :P

You are giving this movement way too much credit. "Free Quebec" is super serious business compared to this. As a Belgian who has been confronted with Flemish separatists since my birth i laugh at how people can take this ridicule movement seriously. But i guess now the elections are over they lack news worth any attention.

farson135:
Texas still produces a huge amount of the chemicals for the US. And even if oil drilling goes down Texas has more petrochemical plants, refineries, etc than any other state.

Yes, but whilst Texas sells oil and chemicals to the USA, the USA will be selling other stuff to Texas. Steel? Financial services? Computers? And so on.

Texas has about 8.5% of the population of the USA, and about 8.5% of the economy.

You are a little low. Texas' GDP is about 1/11th of the total for the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP#2010_List
...
I understand but I do not believe that any entity can lose 10% of its GDP and be in great shape.

No, according to that source I'm a little high. It lists Texas as having 7.95% of the USA's GDP, which is just under 1/12th.

An entity surely can lose 10% and be in a great shape: that 10% could feasibly be a "bad" 10% dragging the other 90% down. Companies frequently, for instance, shut down, sell or demerge sectors of their operations to improve themselves. Historically, countries have cut loose parts of their territory which are more trouble than they are worth. Some (e.g. Czech Republic & Slovakia, Netherlands and Belgium) have separated by mutual consent and thrived independently.

Losing 8% of its GDP and population would necessarily make the USA a weaker player on the world stage. It would probably involve a tricky transition period and having to slightly reassess lots of things. But in terms of the life quality and opportunities of their populations, there's no reason to assume it would be harmful for Texas or the USA.

spartan231490:
Remember, the US is already trillions in debt, the Texan economy would be brand new and not in any debt,

Why would you assume this? It would only seem fair for Texas to assume a portion of the US debt proportional to its population. So Texas would end up with 8-9% of the federal debt.

I don't know why we're even discussing this.

Firstly, while it's true that any petition that gains 25,000 signatures must be seen by the president, there is a clause in place that stipulates that it must be 25,000 ACTUAL signatures. Internet petitions DO NOT COUNT as the signatures can be forged too easily. They have to be hand written in ink in order for the petition to be acknowledged.

Secondly, the ONLY state as far as I know to have an actual secession clause written into its bill or rights or whatever paperwork was established when that territory became a US state is Texas, and that mostly came about due to the fact that they were rather independent from the beginning, what with fighting a war against mexico and all that. So Texas actually can LEGALLY secede according to the whatever contract drawn up back then. The rest of the states have no such loophole.

Texas is the world's 17th largest economy, all by itself.

Oh, and if you plan to try to fix a portion of the US national debt to Texas "proportional to it's population", good luck with that. You'd have to prove that a portion of that debt was directly incurred by Texas, and that they are directly responsible for any portion of it. Although, I am quite sure that Texas by its sheer size is capable of taking on roughly $320 billion in new debt (16 trillion/50 states).

You couldn't get any court in the land to agree to that. The argument of "it would only seem fair" is wrong. If fairness were any kind of real benchmark, we'd all pay the exact same tax rate, regardless of income level. Fairness implies "same".

And Texas DOES NOT have a constitutional right to secede, through treaty or any other made up crap. From their own website: http://www.texassecede.com/faq.htm

Q: Doesn't the Texas Constitution reserve the right of Texas to secede? [BACK TO TOP]

A: This heavily popularized bit of Texas folklore finds no corroboration where it counts: No such provision is found in the current Texas Constitution[1] (adopted in 1876) or the terms of annexation.[2] However, it does state (in Article 1, Section 1) that "Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States..." (note that it does not state "...subject to the President of the United States..." or "...subject to the Congress of the United States..." or "...subject to the collective will of one or more of the other States...")

Neither the Texas Constitution, nor the Constitution of the united States, explicitly or implicitly disallows the secession of Texas (or any other "free and independent State") from the United States. Joining the "Union" was ever and always voluntary, rendering voluntary withdrawal an equally lawful and viable option (regardless of what any self-appointed academic, media, or government "experts"-including Abraham Lincoln himself-may have ever said).

Both the original (1836) and the current (1876) Texas Constitutions also state that "All political power is inherent in the people ... they have at all times the inalienable right to alter their government in such manner as they might think proper."

Likewise, each of the united States is "united" with the others explicitly on the principle that "governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed" and "whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends [i.e., protecting life, liberty, and property], it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government" and "when a long train of abuses and usurpations...evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." [3]

Here is another analogy that actually thinks it might be possible, despite not being in the TX constitution:

http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-secession-2012-11

Nielas:

spartan231490:
Remember, the US is already trillions in debt, the Texan economy would be brand new and not in any debt,

Why would you assume this? It would only seem fair for Texas to assume a portion of the US debt proportional to its population. So Texas would end up with 8-9% of the federal debt.

Because the individual people of the nation do not own any portion of the debt, the federal government is wholly responsible for the national debt, the new Texan economy would own no portion of the debt. Even if they did, the Texan economy could handle it, since Texas actually runs both a balanced budget, and a trade surplus. However, they would not take any portion of the debt. We don't ask people who move to a different country to pay their portion of the debt, the debt is the responsibility of congress, not the states.

spartan231490:
Snip

"Good evening, sir! Are you checking out today? Yes? Very good, then. Before you go, however, there is the matter of the bill."

You're dreaming if you think that a society based heavily on capitalism doesn't have a PRECISE and detailed account of what states owe them for services rendered. If they can tax the human being, they can bill the state before it's out the door, and they'll make it stick. That's one clause you CAN'T escape: The bottom line.

OT: So, a friend of mine made the hilarious comment that Obama should actually throw this one to congress. The funny part being that the arguments, the BSing, the constant delays, and the inability to get anything done will last so long that the President's term will have finished before they come to any sort of accord whatsoever. It'll be as ridiculous as this entire subject is (which is VERY).

FalloutJack:

spartan231490:
Snip

"Good evening, sir! Are you checking out today? Yes? Very good, then. Before you go, however, there is the matter of the bill."

You're dreaming if you think that a society based heavily on capitalism doesn't have a PRECISE and detailed account of what states owe them for services rendered. If they can tax the human being, they can bill the state before it's out the door, and they'll make it stick. That's one clause you CAN'T escape: The bottom line.

OT: So, a friend of mine made the hilarious comment that Obama should actually throw this one to congress. The funny part being that the arguments, the BSing, the constant delays, and the inability to get anything done will last so long that the President's term will have finished before they come to any sort of accord whatsoever. It'll be as ridiculous as this entire subject is (which is VERY).

I was discussing the Federal debt, which Texas has no part of. As for Texas having a state debt, they don't.

Texas runs a balanced budget, and pays all their taxes on time, they don't owe anything for congress to demand payment for. The federal government has a massive debt, not all states do, especially not Texas. Texas has no debt to the federal government, Texas is a seller, not a buyer, if anything the Feds owe Texas.

As for congress, whether or not Texas secedes will be determined either by the Texan state congress or by a popular vote among the Texan people, not the federal congress.

spartan231490:
*Snerk*

Yeah, I'm sure the kid can up and leave and his parents won't object if he decides it on his own. That'll totally happen. I'm not even concerned here over who is right - though the whole issue IS silly in my eye - I'm just pointing out what'll happen. Any such action done without federal ratification will be seen as illegal and therefore null in void. Now, what is it called when a group of people decide to loudly declare that they are seceding from the union without permission from that union (aside from a repeat in history)? Treason. Texans are smarter than that, I'm sure. Again, I'm not saying anything about right or wrong. I'm looking at probable reactions. The reality is that if they do it, that it will not be pleasant no matter how you slice it.

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