Transgender and You: A guide to interacting the the trans public

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Allecai:
I try my best to 'live and let live.' I try to keep my judging of people to the bare minimum, and this topic is no exception. However, something that gets to me is the complicated use of pronouns in regards to transgender individuals. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but the thing that designates a person as male or female is their X and Y chromosomes. Someone with two X chromosomes is female, a she if you will, someone with an X and Y chromosome is a male, or a he. So just because a person has changed their appearance and/or hormones to become more masculine or feminine, does not make them the opposite sex; they still have the same DNA make-up. A person can decide they feel differently than how society perceives their gender, that's fine. I would say that those individuals should try to change the way that society perceives gender, not that they should change their gender or alter the pronouns they are referred to by. No matter what you do, you will always be the sex you are born as, and changing your gender to one you feel more comfortable as only reinforces the gender stereotypes we have today.

Probably not a good first post for a new member of the Escapist, but I hadn't seen anyone post an opinion like my own in the posts I read.

Here's the thing though, we don't really look at karyotypes to judge people. An MtF doesn't want to be categorized with me just because we share a Y chromosome and tries to weaken the influence of that chromosome by taking estrogen. They feel a problem with their sex, that's why some younger mtf individuals try to chop off their penis. They often don't want their...born sexual characteristics touched or mentioned. Like, there's a lot more to it than "I HAVE A DICK AND I WANT TO PLAY WITH DOLLS" which you seem to think is the case. We judge people by phenotype, not genotype.

I'm surprised by the reaction of this thread so far.

Is it THAT hard to call a transperson by their correct pronouns ?

MtF = She
FtM = He

Wow that wasn't so bad :)

If by accident you called a MtF a ''he'', she'll just tell you that she's a she and that's it.
Don't go out of your way to tell how you have your rights to tell someone else what gender they are or any other bullshit.

OT: I have a question. Why are you all so sweet ? :3 I never met a transgendered who wasn't a good person. I remember asking this question and my response was that you're all made of chocolate. Is this true ? :)

90sgamer:

Rosiv:

90sgamer:

Where did attraction come into the discussion between you and I? You are asking people to call a He and She because He wants to be a She. If I have cause to refer to someone in a manner than reveals their gender, then I will say they are the gender that they actually are. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to going out of my way to be nice or nasty. Facts are facts. Reality is not perception.

You were talking about a king's robes looking "fine", so i was trying to stick to that anology.

As for your comment on

Facts are facts. Reality is not perception.

The fact isnt that the transgender women is a man, the fact is that she has/had a penis probably, and XY chromosomes, not that shes a man.

The definition of being a man isn't based on chromosomes alone, its on physical characteristics, which can be demonstrated by the inter-sexed community. So to act like you have the arbiter in this discussion is a bit condescending. Yes reality is not perception, perception is not reality, just because a person thinks there a women/frog/spaceship doesnt make them so. What DOES make them so is if they can function and look like what ever they try and be. If a transgender women can look and function like a regular women, and be seen as one, which they do all the time, then they should be called women. And even if they aren't all they passable, that just puts them in the "ugly women" category, which doesnt make them any less of a women.

Defintions are suppose to add context, and are subjective to the scope of whatever you are talking about, so if you said transgender women are not geneticly women i can agree with you, but outside that context, they fit the bill, so why not call them women in that case?

Ah, you haven't heard the story. Google "the king's robes." It might be a story by a different name. In summary: a king was tricked into believing he purchased a robe that is invisible to him but visible to everyone else. He wears his invisible robe but is in fact naked. He walks the streets of his kingdom and asks every passerby what they think of his robes. Everyone tells him his robes are beautiful because it's customary not to contradict a king. Until someone declares that the king is naked! Then the king realized he is actually not wearing robes but is naked.

I can get behind the use of definitions! I just looked up the definition of man using dictionary.com and I saw nothing about physical characteristics. From where are you obtaining your definitions?

The definition I saw for "man" was: An adult male.
The definition of male is:a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

Note the use of the word "normally." Surgically adding sexual organs is not a normally occurring thing. Therefor, bearing a man's junk and using a man's appearance and demeanor does not necessarily make a person a man. I assert it's strictly biological, as the definitions support.

Im obtaining my definitions from the standard medical practice used to assign sex during ambiguous cases of sex. Which would apply in a trans persons case, since by going under the knife or by taking HRT they then fall into this case.
The link is spoilerd below

The acutal exerpt im refering to is spoilered again below.

The numbers referring to lines numbers. In the source the page number is 843, which is like the 2nd page of it or something.

I dont think we should be even using the dictonary in this case, its only for general cases/contexts, and doesnt really apply with this case. I mean from dictionary.com i got these as the defintion copy pasta'ed and spoilered below.

A person who looks like a women, and is called a women by society at large, and their doctors even can have XY chromosomes. Intersexed people fall into this category all the time, and therefore would kind of break the defintion, since inter sexed women with XY chromosomes are considered women.

If you really want to get to the root of the definition, sex is suppose to determine reproductive capabilities,and since transgender women cant reproduce i guess you could call them not women by that definition, but then neither can some regular women, so it again falls moot.

Note the use of the word "normally." Surgically adding sexual organs is not a normally occurring thing. Therefor, bearing a man's junk and using a man's appearance and demeanor does not necessarily make a person a man. I assert it's strictly biological, as the definitions support.

If it were strictly biological then as i said above inter sexed cases would be classified as their chromosomes, which they arent.They are classified by their external components, as my source states.

And im not sure i understand, but what does being normally occurring have to do with anything? We are allowed to have unusual cases of being male or female. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum concept? Are you saying that because transgender women are an exception to the norm, that they shouldn't be considered women?

By my counting you're about 9 too many there. My guideline to treating trans people is the same as what my guideline to treating anybody is, treat them how they treat you.

I will say though, if a trans person says "I'm a tranny" you better believe I going to refer to that person as a tranny, given the correct context, by which I mean, if somebody asked "have you seen Joe?" I wouldn't say "oh, you mean the tranny?" BUT if somebody said "hey, is Joe a tranny" I wouldn't say "don't call him a tranny".

I've seen drag queens in my local town and they are all very flamboyant and they don't mind tranny at all but I guess it's a personal thing. I guess it depends on whether you're "the performer and the gender dysphoric" as you put it, a performer is more out there and secure in with it but the other type is more insecure and defensive about it.

I may just be speaking out my arse with that last bit though.

btbushi:

Well, if one of us remembers then you should ask me in about 5 months what the difference it and I'll be glad to try and let you know the difference as I perceive it. Also as biased from the point of view "this feels wrong and that feels like it would be right."

I'll take you up on that offer. I'm rather curious, and some insight would be very appreciated :)

btbushi:

I can definitely understand that, and I've done similar experiments (though it didn't involve gender. Any time I had a net presence unless it could be traced to me in RL before I came out, I presented as female). On the whole, I haven't really experienced the "Get in the kitchen, girl" comments but rarely. I have heard the flip side of that though, where people shame others because "ze little girl did better than you newb" and that is occasionally as frustrating. sually in cases or games where I feel like I'm actually pretty decent so my gender certainly shouldn't be the issue they point to. Eh, it's a thing.

I did this on an MMO.
Oh the little girl and kitchen thing didn't happen to me too much or at all for me.
Rather it seems just using the mannerisms of a girl with a female character made people unconditionally give me free stuff compared to when I acted male on a male character.
I found it hilarious that people did so on such flimsy grounds. I even made it a point to avoid ever directly stating if I was female or not.
Oh, so hilarious.

I kind of thought "treat them like you'd treat anyone else" was the only guide you needed.

Also, the whole "shemale is like a racial slur" thing isn't entirely correct. Some are fine with the likes of that.

CrossLOPER:

Proto Taco:
Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women. They are very real, they are just as invested in their gender as you are in yours and they are doing their best to measure up to society's expectations of them even if they can't quite reach the cisgender benchmark. A transwoman is not 'really a man' and a transman is not 'really a woman'.

So is there such a thing as a trans-trans? I notice you have completely omitted this. Perhaps you have your own biases, and should recognize those before presuming biases in others.

They're... transitioning into a transition? What does that even mean dude.

90sgamer:

TekMoney:

90sgamer:

Deliberately treating them poorly by not going out of my way to accommodate them? From when ce do you come/ It's nott he earth I inhabit.

How is it going out of your way? If you call a trans woman "he" and she tells you that she's a woman. Is the extra effort of saying "She" too taxing for you? If you call a guy Larry, and he says to you "Actually my name is Larry" would you keep calling him Larry?

First of all, saying something is "going out of my way" is not the same as "it's too taxing." It would be heasier to take you seriously if you didn't resort to needless exaggeration.

Secondly, it would be a lie. Sex is not subjective, even if you wish it to be so. I ama lot of bad things, but I'm not a liar.

To answer your question, ill call someone by their chosen name. Names are chosen and can be changed. I got a niece called rocket. I think shell eventually change her name because parents can also be... wrong. sex is something one is born with. There is no evidence that shows one can be born the wrong sex. In any case your anology is bad. Name is not the same as sex.

Try thinking of it as a name change. To you that is essentially what it is. To them it's a big personal thing and they are officially a different gender. But to you it's just a change of name; he to she/she to he. It's really no skin off your nose.

Sorry to butt in, just thought it might help cool things down in here.

wombat_of_war:
a bit of education doesnt hurt and this community can frankly be pretty vicious and could do with some tolerance. funny if you are gay here or support gay rights no one bats an eye lid but this topic freaks people out like gay rights did 40 years ago

On the flip side of that, the vicious folks who could do with some tolerance tend to look at these threads and crap on them. Just looking at the responses, I see quite a few thoughtless or even possibly dickish individuals doubling down on their behaviour. For the most part, it's always the same people. The same people get it, and the same people try and justify why they don't.

Incidentally, this site can be quite harsh to gays, too.

Looking at this thread, I find it hard to address a lot of the negativity in a calm and reasonable fashion. People are being hurtful and dickish in ways that simply wouldn't have happened had someone not brought it up in the first place. And I'm beginning to wonder, as it causes me distress and shows no signs of any resolution, if these threads do more harm than good.

It seems to go something like this:

"Don't be a jerk to people."
"Fuck you, you can't tell me what to do!"

And scene.

90sgamer:
Sex is not subjective, even if you wish it to be so.

And as science and psychology disagree with you, it would appear that it is subjective. Even if you wish it not to be so.

You're so worried about lying, yet you're stating untruthful things as fact. That's....Interesting.

ninjaRiv:

Also, the whole "shemale is like a racial slur" thing isn't entirely correct. Some are fine with the likes of that.

Some blacks are fine with "nigger." Is it not a racial slur, now?

It is very much (though not exactly) like a racial slur. Your exception does not make it different.

ninjaRiv:
I kind of thought "treat them like you'd treat anyone else" was the only guide you needed.

Also, the whole "shemale is like a racial slur" thing isn't entirely correct. Some are fine with the likes of that.

Perhaps not a racial slur but I can understand if some people take offense due to this explanation.

Like a racial slur, some are okay with it.
A friend of mine came up here from guyana.
He says that they take offense at the word black, but totally accept nigger.
Which I believe is quite opposite from what we have here I think.

Proto Taco:

Guideline 7) Never, and I mean but never, use words such as tranny, he-she, or shemale to describe a trans individual. These titles are strongly tied to the porn industry and their exploitation of trans individuals. Treat these words the same as you would any other racial slur or epithet. If a trans individual uses one of those words to describe themselves, that's their business. It does not make it okay for you to use those words as well.

------------------------------------------------------------

6_Qubed:

CrossLOPER:

Proto Taco:
Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women. They are very real, they are just as invested in their gender as you are in yours and they are doing their best to measure up to society's expectations of them even if they can't quite reach the cisgender benchmark. A transwoman is not 'really a man' and a transman is not 'really a woman'.

So is there such a thing as a trans-trans? I notice you have completely omitted this. Perhaps you have your own biases, and should recognize those before presuming biases in others.

They're... transitioning into a transition? What does that even mean dude.

Transception sounds like something that would exist. except it would be about transforming robots in robots or something instead of gender differences.

Wait, Cybertron would be Transception! Transformers living on an even bigger transformer!

This guide is meaningless. These "trans people" are just people and will get treated as such by me. Gender or gender identity is irrelevant, unless people bring it up themselves (which they most likely will not).

As for usage of pronouns in general speech - when in doubt, simply don't use them at all if you want to be courteous.

Zachary Amaranth:

ninjaRiv:

Also, the whole "shemale is like a racial slur" thing isn't entirely correct. Some are fine with the likes of that.

Some blacks are fine with "nigger." Is it not a racial slur, now?

It is very much (though not exactly) like a racial slur. Your exception does not make it different.

You always get overly offended, man. Some people LIKE being called that, I wasn't debating, harrassing or even trolling. I was saying. Pointing out.

KOMega:

ninjaRiv:
I kind of thought "treat them like you'd treat anyone else" was the only guide you needed.

Also, the whole "shemale is like a racial slur" thing isn't entirely correct. Some are fine with the likes of that.

Perhaps not a racial slur but I can understand if some people take offense due to this explanation.

Like a racial slur, some are okay with it.
A friend of mine came up here from guyana.
He says that they take offense at the word black, but totally accept nigger.
Which I believe is quite opposite from what we have here I think.

Disregard my "not a racial slur" bit, then. More just pointing out that there are those who are fine with/prefer those terms. I wasn't disagreeing at all, more just pointing that out.

Zachary Amaranth:

90sgamer:
Sex is not subjective, even if you wish it to be so.

And as science and psychology disagree with you, it would appear that it is subjective. Even if you wish it not to be so.

You're so worried about lying, yet you're stating untruthful things as fact. That's....Interesting.

What is interesting is your inability to separate truth and lies from correct and incorrect assertions. Or maybe you are accusing me of lying, and if so then do you care to explain why you think that I am informed and believe differently than what I am asserting?

Kaulen Fuhs:

Shadowstar38:
You're doing too much.

When talking to someone, they're just a person. Simple. Don't let any one aspect of their identity be your focus.

What I'm saying is, we simply don't need all this to be able to coexist. It comes off as political correctness gone overboard.

Really? The existence of 90sgamer would seem to suggest otherwise...

Depending on if he actually learns something from this. Going by pattern of responses, it seems unlikely.

Rosiv:

90sgamer:

Rosiv:

You were talking about a king's robes looking "fine", so i was trying to stick to that anology.

As for your comment on

The fact isnt that the transgender women is a man, the fact is that she has/had a penis probably, and XY chromosomes, not that shes a man.

The definition of being a man isn't based on chromosomes alone, its on physical characteristics, which can be demonstrated by the inter-sexed community. So to act like you have the arbiter in this discussion is a bit condescending. Yes reality is not perception, perception is not reality, just because a person thinks there a women/frog/spaceship doesnt make them so. What DOES make them so is if they can function and look like what ever they try and be. If a transgender women can look and function like a regular women, and be seen as one, which they do all the time, then they should be called women. And even if they aren't all they passable, that just puts them in the "ugly women" category, which doesnt make them any less of a women.

Defintions are suppose to add context, and are subjective to the scope of whatever you are talking about, so if you said transgender women are not geneticly women i can agree with you, but outside that context, they fit the bill, so why not call them women in that case?

Ah, you haven't heard the story. Google "the king's robes." It might be a story by a different name. In summary: a king was tricked into believing he purchased a robe that is invisible to him but visible to everyone else. He wears his invisible robe but is in fact naked. He walks the streets of his kingdom and asks every passerby what they think of his robes. Everyone tells him his robes are beautiful because it's customary not to contradict a king. Until someone declares that the king is naked! Then the king realized he is actually not wearing robes but is naked.

I can get behind the use of definitions! I just looked up the definition of man using dictionary.com and I saw nothing about physical characteristics. From where are you obtaining your definitions?

The definition I saw for "man" was: An adult male.
The definition of male is:a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

Note the use of the word "normally." Surgically adding sexual organs is not a normally occurring thing. Therefor, bearing a man's junk and using a man's appearance and demeanor does not necessarily make a person a man. I assert it's strictly biological, as the definitions support.

Im obtaining my definitions from the standard medical practice used to assign sex during ambiguous cases of sex. Which would apply in a trans persons case, since by going under the knife or by taking HRT they then fall into this case.
The link is spoilerd below

The acutal exerpt im refering to is spoilered again below.

The numbers referring to lines numbers. In the source the page number is 843, which is like the 2nd page of it or something.

I dont think we should be even using the dictonary in this case, its only for general cases/contexts, and doesnt really apply with this case. I mean from dictionary.com i got these as the defintion copy pasta'ed and spoilered below.

A person who looks like a women, and is called a women by society at large, and their doctors even can have XY chromosomes. Intersexed people fall into this category all the time, and therefore would kind of break the defintion, since inter sexed women with XY chromosomes are considered women.

If you really want to get to the root of the definition, sex is suppose to determine reproductive capabilities,and since transgender women cant reproduce i guess you could call them not women by that definition, but then neither can some regular women, so it again falls moot.

Note the use of the word "normally." Surgically adding sexual organs is not a normally occurring thing. Therefor, bearing a man's junk and using a man's appearance and demeanor does not necessarily make a person a man. I assert it's strictly biological, as the definitions support.

If it were strictly biological then as i said above inter sexed cases would be classified as their chromosomes, which they arent.They are classified by their external components, as my source states.

And im not sure i understand, but what does being normally occurring have to do with anything? We are allowed to have unusual cases of being male or female. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum concept? Are you saying that because transgender women are an exception to the norm, that they shouldn't be considered women?

I appreciate you taking the time to cite that fascinating paper. If I understand correctly, it established that a person can be born with DSD, and in such cases his/her sex can be determined by observing two physical characteristics and chromosome configuration--but the general feeling I got is that the person can be objectively either sex. This evidences your assertion that sex can be determined by more than internal biology (chromosomes), but also by appearances. You can consider me convinced on that point.

To answer your question, I was elaborating on the phrase "normally accruing" because it appeared in the definition for "male." I anticipated that you might assert that organs can be added via surgery and therefore a gender can be changed. My response would be "not according to the definition, which requires those organs to have occurred normally.'

You've shown that a person can be born an indeterminate gender, which is interesting. However, you haven't shown someone can be born the wrong gender. We're talking about a situation where a person's chromosomes, external and internal appearance all reflect one sex, and yet that individual identifies more with the other sex. That's what this comes down to, isn't it? Transgenders were born one sex but feel they are or should have been the opposite sex?

I work as a nightclub bouncer and somtimes we have gay/lesbian/transgender/crossdressing nights. Thie first time this happend i honestly didnt know weather to address some of the men in drag as "mate", "love" or just "oi you". (Im a Brit btw, so these are what we call informal tearms for greating customers when speaking to them in conversation)

Normaly its fairly obvious who is who...or who is what. But in these circumstances i have to be both profesional and curtious, yet, i cannot if i dont know who or rather what you are. I really dont want to insult you as a person or your gender/lifestyle choice but theres only so many nuetral methods of greeting/conversing with someone. So what to do?

Well i spoke to one of the drag queens one night when he stepped out for a smoke and explained this to him. You know what? He laughed! He gets this all the time from both friends, family, co-workers and the general public, so he was fairly good natured about it. Unfortunatly not everyone is like that, some people get seriously offended if you address them as one thing when they think of themselves or at least present themselves as something else. I've actually had to throw people out for starting fights over such matters.

What i ask is that if you are lets say, "of a differant....orientation?" (hmm im trying to word that in the least insulting way possible, but its not easy) Try to be at least a little more...not obvious but, helpfull(?) to those of us who have to deal with a lot of people on a daily/nightly basis, some of whom are a general threat to your clubbing experiance. We have far bigger problems to deal with than you being insulted just because someone made a genuine mistake.

I'm of the mind like this, mostly due to my job. No matter how feminine you act, if you've still got the plumbing between your legs that looks like a baby's arm cradling a sausage, you're a man. And if there's two (well, 3, if you want to count the urethra) holes betwixt your thighs, you're a female.

Sorry, but that's the way it is. You can play at dress-up and pretend all you want, and that's fine and dandy. It doesn't really bother me that much, because you aren't causing me any harm, I'm free to go about my life how I choose, and so can you. You can be with who you want to be with, male or female, I really don't care, because I'm not some fundamentalist douchenozzle. Hell, on some days I would be assigned to the dispensary, and would hand out hormones to transsexual inmates, so that their bodies don't go all wacky and they end up in a hospital bed.

But when you go into prison, we don't classify you on how you act, we classify you on the biology in your pants. There's is no way in fucking hell that anyone with a penis is getting put behind bars with a bunch of women. 95% of the time, HE would be the one ending up with the problem, because those women are fucking insane. Same with females in a male prison, the inmates will fuck any hole they can get their hands on, and you having two of them? Oh hell no, that will start a fucking riot daily, and you'd be the cause of it.

So, sorry, but anatomy is what I, and the state, go by, not much else. You can label yourself however you choose, but at the end of the day, anatomy, in my mind, is the easiest thing to go by.

Proto Taco:

Guideline 8) Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women. They are very real, they are just as invested in their gender as you are in yours and they are doing their best to measure up to society's expectations of them even if they can't quite reach the cisgender benchmark. A transwoman is not 'really a man' and a transman is not 'really a woman'.

You are entitled to your personal opinion that there isn't a difference between transsexuals and regular men and women, and I am by no means advocating harassment/discrimination towards those that feel this way, but your opinion isn't medical fact. Transwoman/men are no more "real women/men" in the same way that the naturally blonde haired Emma Stone is as much of natural redhead as those that are "real redhead". While you can always point to exceptions(as most people are so quick to do), "real women/men" don't have surgery to reconstruct their genitals so that they can become a "woman/man"-their born with that genitalia[1]

[1] Save yourself the time by pointing out someone who has born deformed or had an accident because what you are doing is either:

A)comparing deformed "real women/men" with transsexuals, which doesn't make transsexuals seem more "normal" or "healthy".
B)demonstrating that outside forces(see:car crashes, violent fights, animal attacks, work related injuries, ect.) are needed in order for your claim that "real women/men" are no different from transsexuals, and that without the work of outside forces your claim doesn't hold up.

rhizhim:

Proto Taco:

Guideline 6) If someone denies they're trans, regardless of how strong your suspicions may be, just let it go. Being trans is dangerous; your odds of being murdered go up to 1 in 12 if you're trans and the majority of trans murderers get off scot free. If someone doesn't want to tell you they're trans, that's their business and they're most likely scared of how you will react. If you're dating them and this happens then simply take the guidelines here into consideration and handle the situation as kindly and tactfully as you can. Otherwise, just let it go.

image

care to posts some sources to back your claim on this part?

That might have been somewhat of an exaggeration, but a person who murders a transgender person will generally receive less punishment if convicted, which is less likely. The trans panic defense (same as gay panic, but with trans people) is a quite useful thing.

ChaosBorne:
now this could just be me ofcourse, but shouldn't you just treat transgenders the same as anyone else?
that just seems like the most reasonable thing to do, then again not many people are all that reasonable.

Like you say, it should be that simple, but isn't, for no good reason.

Zachary Amaranth:

90sgamer:
Sex is not subjective, even if you wish it to be so.

And as science and psychology disagree with you, it would appear that it is subjective. Even if you wish it not to be so.

You're so worried about lying, yet you're stating untruthful things as fact. That's....Interesting.

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

Born the "wrong" gender might be a poor choice of words. And im not sure when i excatly said that either.

But yes, their internal appearance, chromosomes all reflect one sex. That being said, for whatever reason they transition, once they transtition, they shouldnt be considered their previous sex/gender. Since they now look enough like the other one. I mean, if you asking for proof that they were born the "Wrong" gender, the evdience isnt out their yet. There is the argument that gender is a social construct, and therefore a product of ourselves. By that reasoning anyone can change their gender, since it reduces gender to just how we view ourselves.

There is also the biological lense, which usually quotes the failure of John Money a psychologist who theorized that gender was totally mutable via his popular case study of David Reimer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

If you want my crappy paraphrase/summary, he told parents of a child who had a botched circumcision that he could raise the child as a girl, since gender was a social construct. John tried and make the child conform to a girl, but after resistance and unusual practices(Forcing David to role play sexual positions) it didnt work out well. David transition backed to a male at a later stage in his life, and later committed suicide. Now this doesnt really prove that gender isnt socialy constructed since its a) one case study, and b) bad methodology. But i was just mentioning it because i thought it was relevant to the discussion.

However people who argue that gender is biological will also mention that since David couldnt transtion to female, there is something in our brains that makes us intrinsicly "male" or "female". Citation of Zhou studies on the brains of MTF and FTM transgender is usually presented stating that since MTF have similar brain structure to that of women and vice versa for FTM, their is something internal that makes MTF transpeople feel they are women, and therefore women neurologically. My source for the Zhou study is here :http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

Since the article is way above my knowledge, ill quote from the abstract, spoilered below.

Although the problem with this study is that it doesn't rule out environmental factors that could cause a change in the brain formation. So really as far as causes of transgenderism go, i dont have any solid leads. However i dont really need any since regardless of the cause, social/biological, there is the phenomena of males changing into females and females changing into males. And the legitimacy of the change, a male truly being a women after transitioning, and vice versa, is what i was arguing to be true.

I mean here is the logic and how i see it.

A man changes his sex to a women. Sex can be defined by phenotype( observable characteristics or traits) like in the case of intersexed people in the article i quoted above. Therefore when someone changes their observable characteristics or traits regardless of how they are changed(chromosomes/HRT/Surgery) they should be female.

TehCookie:

Zachary Amaranth:

90sgamer:
Sex is not subjective, even if you wish it to be so.

And as science and psychology disagree with you, it would appear that it is subjective. Even if you wish it not to be so.

You're so worried about lying, yet you're stating untruthful things as fact. That's....Interesting.

There's a difference between sex and gender, sex is biologically what you are while gender is what you feel. Gender is subjective, sex is not.

Sex can be just as subjective and vague as gender,like in the case of intersexed individuals, so to say otherwise is kind of false.

Helmholtz Watson:

Proto Taco:

Guideline 8) Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women. They are very real, they are just as invested in their gender as you are in yours and they are doing their best to measure up to society's expectations of them even if they can't quite reach the cisgender benchmark. A transwoman is not 'really a man' and a transman is not 'really a woman'.

You are entitled to your personal opinion that there isn't a difference between transsexuals and regular men and women, and I am by no means advocating harassment/discrimination towards those that feel this way, but your opinion isn't medical fact. Transwoman/men are no more "real women/men" in the same way that the naturally blonde haired Emma Stone is as much of natural redhead as those that are "real redhead". While you can always point to exceptions(as most people are so quick to do), "real women/men" don't have surgery to reconstruct their genitals so that they can become a "woman/man"-their born with that genitalia[1]

While you can always point to exceptions(as most people are so quick to do), "real women/men" don't have surgery to reconstruct their genitals so that they can become a "woman/man"-their born with that genitalia

Well with intersexed people they do have to undergo forms of HRT/surgical intervention to achive a desired state, so in that part you are a bit wrong. And why do transsexuals have to be healthy to be considered women? A sick women is still a women.

[1] Save yourself the time by pointing out someone who has born deformed or had an accident because what you are doing is either:

A)comparing deformed "real women/men" with transsexuals, which doesn't make transsexuals seem more "normal" or "healthy".
B)demonstrating that outside forces(see:car crashes, violent fights, animal attacks, work related injuries, ect.) are needed in order for your claim that "real women/men" are no different from transsexuals, and that without the work of outside forces your claim doesn't hold up.

cpukill:
I'm of the mind like this, mostly due to my job. No matter how feminine you act, if you've still got the plumbing between your legs that looks like a baby's arm cradling a sausage, you're a man. And if there's two (well, 3, if you want to count the urethra) holes betwixt your thighs, you're a female.

Sorry, but that's the way it is. You can play at dress-up and pretend all you want, and that's fine and dandy. It doesn't really bother me that much, because you aren't causing me any harm, I'm free to go about my life how I choose, and so can you. You can be with who you want to be with, male or female, I really don't care, because I'm not some fundamentalist douchenozzle. Hell, on some days I would be assigned to the dispensary, and would hand out hormones to transsexual inmates, so that their bodies don't go all wacky and they end up in a hospital bed.

But when you go into prison, we don't classify you on how you act, we classify you on the biology in your pants. There's is no way in fucking hell that anyone with a penis is getting put behind bars with a bunch of women. 95% of the time, HE would be the one ending up with the problem, because those women are fucking insane. Same with females in a male prison, the inmates will fuck any hole they can get their hands on, and you having two of them? Oh hell no, that will start a fucking riot daily, and you'd be the cause of it.

So, sorry, but anatomy is what I, and the state, go by, not much else. You can label yourself however you choose, but at the end of the day, anatomy, in my mind, is the easiest thing to go by.

Im not really rallying against you, but is it really the policy to put transgender people in the same enclosure as men. I mean from what ive read LGBT people get more than their fair share of harassment. And i thought the policy with them was segregation in their own little LGBT enclave. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison (under segregation)

I mean, whats the policy with a POST OP transgender person? Do they still get sent to their birth sexes jail? Seems a bit cruel.

Either way, even though we disagree i do have major respect for your job, my father also worked in the federal prison system, so i can see where your hard stance comes from. Stay safe.

What i ask is that if you are lets say, "of a differant....orientation?" (hmm im trying to word that in the least insulting way possible, but its not easy) Try to be at least a little more...not obvious but, helpfull(?) to those of us who have to deal with a lot of people on a daily/nightly basis, some of whom are a general threat to your clubbing experiance. We have far bigger problems to deal with than you being insulted just because someone made a genuine mistake.

Ya know, one reason a trans person might be against talking about their situation is the hostile climate they face when being outed as transgender. I mean you could probably youtube/google-fu a bunch of videos of transpeople being outed and as a result being beat down physically by men/women with no assistance. So to be wary might be expected, i mean the movie "Boys dont cry" was all about a transgender man being beaten because of his transgender status if you want a popular case. I guess to address the question, the best way to go would be clothes right? If they are wearing a dress/feminine attire call them women, if not men. And if the look is androgynous, you could avoid pronouns all together
and just refer to them via phrases like " Excuse me" or "Hey you". In my opinion, it would be the best option instead of mis-gendering them. In closing, thanks for the polite comment on the forum, they are always few and far between.

ninjaRiv:

You always get overly offended, man. Some people LIKE being called that, I wasn't debating, harrassing or even trolling. I was saying. Pointing out.

If making a literal, factual comparison is getting offended, then I weep for this world.

And don't call me "man."

90sgamer:

What is interesting is your inability to separate truth and lies from correct and incorrect assertions.

Except I didn't say they were the same. You merely inferred that. I was simply puzzled that you would be so interested in the truth yet so willingly disseminate false information. That doesn't require them to be the same. Sorry, care to try again?

Also, since you are wrong about sex, would you care to revise your argument? Since you are so beholden to the truth and all....

Zachary Amaranth:

ninjaRiv:

You always get overly offended, man. Some people LIKE being called that, I wasn't debating, harrassing or even trolling. I was saying. Pointing out.

If making a literal, factual comparison is getting offended, then I weep for this world.

And don't call me "man."

Tempted to call you man in the face of your hostility... The hostility you always seem to bring to the table. Maybe I didn't mean offended but hostile and overly defensive for no reason. Look, buddy, I think it's clear I meant no offence in my original comment and another poster had the same concern you had but presented it with politeness and that went well. Honestly, I've never understood why you get so angry at people here even when they pretty much agree with you. Seems being nicer to people works out sometimes. A lesson I learned not long ago, actually.

I treat all people the same. Just because someone thinks they're the other gender doesn't mean thats gonna change.

If their is gonna be special etiquette for treating a transgender person, who/what ever...then tough shit.
Also, tough luck but im probably never gonna address a MtF trans as a 'she' unless its a slip of the tongue and vise versa.

Guideline 5) Gender and sexual orientation are not the same thing. If a trans person is Female to Male and they like guys, they're gay. Similarly if a trans person is Male to Female and they like guys, they're straight.

no...thats straight and gay respectively. change cloths and identity and snip and add all you want. chromosome are chromosomes.

If you happen to fit as a gay, all the power to you. But if you're born male and like men...you're gay (or at least bi). don't lie to me.

Also, omni and pansexual is a bullshit phrase so people feel like special snow flakes. You're bi.
but i digress.

Guideline 6) If someone denies they're trans, regardless of how strong your suspicions may be, just let it go. Being trans is dangerous; your odds of being murdered go up to 1 in 12 if you're trans and the majority of trans murderers get off scot free. If someone doesn't want to tell you they're trans, that's their business and they're most likely scared of how you will react. If you're dating them and this happens then simply take the guidelines here into consideration and handle the situation as kindly and tactfully as you can. Otherwise, just let it go.

Guideline 7) Never, and I mean but never, use words such as tranny, he-she, or shemale to describe a trans individual. These titles are strongly tied to the porn industry and their exploitation of trans individuals. Treat these words the same as you would any other racial slur or epithet. If a trans individual uses one of those words to describe themselves, that's their business. It does not make it okay for you to use those words as well.

I think trans people have to worry more about suicide than murder, since they have a 41% murder rate.

And since when has 'shemale' and 'tranny' been hate words?
'shemale' is a specific type of transexual (male to female while keeping the penis) and 'tranny' is just a short hand for transexual. Hell, we always try and use the least amount of syllables when describing some one, thats why i use 'black' instead of african america (p.s. african american is actually the racist term), white, chick, or guy.

when the hell did every common word become so fucking offensive?

Guideline 8) Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women. They are very real, they are just as invested in their gender as you are in yours and they are doing their best to measure up to society's expectations of them even if they can't quite reach the cisgender benchmark. A transwoman is not 'really a man' and a transman is not 'really a woman'.

ok, im not a bigot, and dont want to come off as a hater (peoples choices are theirs whether i like their decision or not) But dont act like a transexual who was born male is a legit woman. until we can alter peoples genes, thats not going to be the case. You can 'identify' as the opposite sex all you want...but dont act you where born with a uterus or a penis when the opposite is true.

Guideline 9) Trans monikers go from left to right. If someone is transitioning Male to Female (MtF) that means they are transitioning from male body chemistry to female body chemistry. Similarly if someone is transitioning Female to Male (FtM) that means they are transitioning from female body chemistry to male body chemistry.

Chemistry?
you mean hormone therapy?

Guideline 10) When in doubt: ask (but keep it tactful). Seriously, just bee chill and ask.

*slaps own head*
well DUUR!!
thats pretty obvious, especially since moderators have itchier trigger fingers than Wild Bill Hitchcock.

ninjaRiv:
The hostility you always seem to bring to the table. Maybe I didn't mean offended but hostile and overly defensive for no reason.

I don't know why you're inferring hostility, but it doesn't change the point that saying shemale isn't like a slur because some people like isn't correct. After all, as I said, some black people are fine with use of the word "nigger." That doesn't make it not a slur. I don't know why you got all hostile and defensive, but you decided to take umbrage instead of acknowledge a valid point.

You can find someone fine with most slurs that target them. That doesn't make them not slurs. Now, for the love of Grumpy Cat, stop trying to make things personal.

CAPTCHA: Well done. Thank you, Captcha.

Adam Lester:
How about...you treat people with the dignity and respect they deserve and judge the individual based on their personality? Seriously, I don't believe in being mean to someone whose not mean to you first.

If there's anything past that, all I have to say is DO NOT judge them based of the fucking SJWs'. For those that do not know, SJWs' are a poisonous little fringe group of mutants that are an off-shoot of civil rights groups. They tend to weasel their way into many anarchist, protest and civil rights groups, primarily dealing with feminism, LBGT rights, and so on...and also help to discredit those groups and attempt to alienate select members. Do not engage, ever.

How to spot an SJW, key characteristics-

1) Begin conversations with "Trigger warnings"
2) The whiter, the more pronouns they'll hide behind. This is not because they honestly identify as any of these things 70% of the time. It's so they can garner attention, sympathy and say bigoted things without fear of repercussion. (ie: "I'm a white, straight from a middle class family, but I identify as queergender, transabled, transgendered, two spirits and my trigger word is 'ferrets'")
3) Are offended by every joke they don't tell themselves.
4) Feel they are the authority on every culture, gender, sexual orientation and ethnicity.
5) Treat arguments like a game of Calvinball.
6) Cry things like "patriarchy" or "oppression" when they're proven wrong.

trigger word is 'ferrets' haha dear god 10/10. Slightly offtopic but I dislike the "trigger warning" thing. I understand the concept behind them and I understand they're a real thing but some "triggers" are just ridiculous. I was talking about peanut butter once and this girl legitimately said it was her trigger. I mean what the fuck, I can't talk about peanut butter now?

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