Transgender and You: A guide to interacting the the trans public

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At the chance of looking like a dick, i am going to say this.
It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one.
No i don't mean meeting one in a bar or on the street (Which you won't notice anyway) or talking to one for an hour, i mean really dealing with them.
Let me tell you a story.
Back when i was in school, we got a new girl in our class, vicky, who looked quite a bit like a little boy. And no, not what you think, she really was an actual girl. All fine and well. While she wasn't particularly pretty, she was a nice person and quickly got some friends, me included. Now about half a year after that, she started asking everyone questions. Questions like:"What do you like about being a man/woman?" You know, pretty weird, uncomfortable making questions.
But that wasn't too much of a problem either. What became more of a problem was that she wanted everyone to start calling her vicco. By then everyone had figured out what was going on and there were some people who simply refused calling her by her new name, but it wasn't too bad.
Then she wrote a love letter to one of the girls in our class. One the girls that she was previously been friends with. Now that was a problem. The girls weren't comfortable undressing in front of her anymore, when they were changing before PE class. The boys obviously didn't want her in their locker room, either. She ended up having to change in a little room for herself then.
And it didn't get any better, after that costed her many friends, she drove the other ones off, by getting mad, when they didn't call her vicco.
And that was about it, she missed a few months of school, started going into the men's room and shortly before school's end even got a girlfriend.

What my point is: It's one thing to interact with transexuals for a short amount of time and be a nice person during that. That's easy. What's difficult is dealing with one for a long amount of time, preferably during the time of change. You can't just state some rules and tell everyone to be nice and comfortable then.

Abomination:
In both scenarios, removing a man's penis doesn't magically make them stop producing testosterone. If the hormonal treatments cease their breasts will "deflate" unless they're implants and if that's the case... well... it makes the whole thing about costumes even more accurate.

Well, maybe. I don't know if I would think of it as a costume at the post-op stage. In fact, I don't think I would, although I've never met anyone in that situation, so I can't really gauge it. Like I said in my edit, it's not exactly something you're brought up to consider.

I still think that post-op, that person is a lot closer to their final sex than they are to their previous one. And I've met women (like, born as a woman women) who produce 2 or 3 times more testosterone than they should. Which results in some unfortunate facial hair for them. I think that, with post-op, it's a closer situation to that than to a man. But whatever. That's what goes on inside my head.

Edit, again, fuck me:
Then again, like I said, I've never actually met a transgendered person. I have no idea how much the changes regress when the treatment stops. All I know is that they can look like this:

And that does it for me. So, yeah.

AWAR:

Jegsimmons:

Because the amount of people who are transgender is such a small minority it hardly registers on any charts, and the world shouldn't conform to a minorities standard.

Only there are actual people behind the charts, and what kind of messed up logic is that anyway? How is not being a discriminatory dick conforming to any standards other than politeness and respect?

who said anything about being a dick? yeah, don't be a dick...but at the same time, if you're born a dude, im calling you dude. if you're born a girl im calling you miss, babe, or hun.

Amaror:
At the chance of looking like a dick, i am going to say this.
It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one.
No i don't mean meeting one in a bar or on the street (Which you won't notice anyway) or talking to one for an hour, i mean really dealing with them.
Let me tell you a story.
Back when i was in school, we got a new girl in our class, vicky, who looked quite a bit like a little boy. And no, not what you think, she really was an actual girl. All fine and well. While she wasn't particularly pretty, she was a nice person and quickly got some friends, me included. Now about half a year after that, she started asking everyone questions. Questions like:"What do you like about being a man/woman?" You know, pretty weird, uncomfortable making questions.
But that wasn't too much of a problem either. What became more of a problem was that she wanted everyone to start calling her vicco. By then everyone had figured out what was going on and there were some people who simply refused calling her by her new name, but it wasn't too bad.
Then she wrote a love letter to one of the girls in our class. One the girls that she was previously been friends with. Now that was a problem. The girls weren't comfortable undressing in front of her anymore, when they were changing before PE class. The boys obviously didn't want her in their locker room, either. She ended up having to change in a little room for herself then.
And it didn't get any better, after that costed her many friends, she drove the other ones off, by getting mad, when they didn't call her vicco.
And that was about it, she missed a few months of school, started going into the men's room and shortly before school's end even got a girlfriend.

What my point is: It's one thing to interact with transexuals for a short amount of time and be a nice person during that. That's easy. What's difficult is dealing with one for a long amount of time, preferably during the time of change. You can't just state some rules and tell everyone to be nice and comfortable then.

that does bring up an interesting point about inconvenience on this subject.
Just recently a family won a lawsuit to let their 6 year old boy use the girls bathroom.
1. he's six. shame on the parents for taking that seriously. thats not being progressive, thats being fucking stupid.
2. they wasted court time for a 6 year old who liked to dress up like a girl to use the girls restroom.
3. what if the 6 year old decides not be a girl anymore, because he's six and this should be taking as seriously as when he says he wants to grow up to be spiderman or a power ranger...because he's six.

Then again this same family hasn't produced a normal child yet that didn't suffer from either brain damage or advanced autism (not making light of those situations, far from it, just making a point) and are allowing a 6 year old boy to dress up as a girl and useing the womens restroom before he'd developed any form of sexual maturity.

So if thats going on for just a stupid 6 year old, high school ( i imagine) can get really complicated.

Jegsimmons:
who said anything about being a dick? yeah, don't be a dick...but at the same time, if you're born a dude, im calling you dude. if you're born a girl im calling you miss, babe, or hun.

Yeah you do that. If you don't mind getting called a transphobic douchebag that is.

You do realise that gender identity doesn't always correspond with the actual sex assigned at birth? Do you also realise that by insistently calling out transgendered people by their biological sex may violate said people's basic rights of self determination, dignity and freedom. No? Too much for your "nonconforming" brain to compute?

AWAR:

Jegsimmons:
who said anything about being a dick? yeah, don't be a dick...but at the same time, if you're born a dude, im calling you dude. if you're born a girl im calling you miss, babe, or hun.

Yeah you do that. If you don't mind getting called a homophobic douchebag that is.

You do realise that gender identity doesn't always correspond with the actual sex assigned at birth? Do you also realise that by insistently calling out transgendered people by their biological sex may violate on their basic rights of self determination, dignity and freedom. No? Too much for your "nonconforming" brain to compute?

Under that logic, michael jackson wasnt a black guy.

and what homophobic about that?
they may not be gay, making assumptions arent we?
do you mean trans-phobic?

even then it isnt.
if it was phobic, it'd be a fear.
If it was bigotry i would be denying them rights.

But heres my view, if i dress up in fubu clothing and roll my hair in corn rows and dye my skin dark, does that make me a black person?
No.
So how does saying you feel like an X trapped in an Y body before getting surgery that's only ornamental and doesn't change your DNA make up make one part of the opposite sex?
It doesn't.

If you're trans fine, just dont call me X phobic when i call out how obviously SILLY it truly is to think you're truly a woman when you're born a man. You don't know what its like to be a woman. You wont understand the stress of menstruation and menopause and being born into a demographic that's been oppressed in most places since the beginning of society and be stuck with gender roles that was pretty much sociologically pressured on you until at best 50 years ago.
And like wise, women wont ever under stand the inconvenience of middle school boners and tight jeans or worse....zipping up pants to fast.

For anyone to say how the other gender fully feels is not only ignorant, but a fool.

But if you want to identify as the opposite sex, feel free to do so...doesn't mean you actually are.

Jegsimmons:
that does bring up an interesting point about inconvenience on this subject.
Just recently a family won a lawsuit to let their 6 year old boy use the girls bathroom.
1. he's six. shame on the parents for taking that seriously. thats not being progressive, thats being fucking stupid.
2. they wasted court time for a 6 year old who liked to dress up like a girl to use the girls restroom.
3. what if the 6 year old decides not be a girl anymore, because he's six and this should be taking as seriously as when he says he wants to grow up to be spiderman or a power ranger...because he's six.

Then again this same family hasn't produced a normal child yet that didn't suffer from either brain damage or advanced autism (not making light of those situations, far from it, just making a point) and are allowing a 6 year old boy to dress up as a girl and useing the womens restroom before he'd developed any form of sexual maturity.

So if thats going on for just a stupid 6 year old, high school ( i imagine) can get really complicated.

Six and they are certain about their gender?

I'm calling bullshit. I'm picturing the mother has read too many new age magazines and since her boy likes pink he must want to be a girl and is pushing him towards this... might even be doing it for any potential settlement money.

I'd go so far as to say the other kids have "alleged" autism.

Amaror:
At the chance of looking like a dick, i am going to say this.
It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one.
No i don't mean meeting one in a bar or on the street (Which you won't notice anyway) or talking to one for an hour, i mean really dealing with them.
Let me tell you a story.
Back when i was in school, we got a new girl in our class, vicky, who looked quite a bit like a little boy. And no, not what you think, she really was an actual girl. All fine and well. While she wasn't particularly pretty, she was a nice person and quickly got some friends, me included. Now about half a year after that, she started asking everyone questions. Questions like:"What do you like about being a man/woman?" You know, pretty weird, uncomfortable making questions.
But that wasn't too much of a problem either. What became more of a problem was that she wanted everyone to start calling her vicco. By then everyone had figured out what was going on and there were some people who simply refused calling her by her new name, but it wasn't too bad.
Then she wrote a love letter to one of the girls in our class. One the girls that she was previously been friends with. Now that was a problem. The girls weren't comfortable undressing in front of her anymore, when they were changing before PE class. The boys obviously didn't want her in their locker room, either. She ended up having to change in a little room for herself then.
And it didn't get any better, after that costed her many friends, she drove the other ones off, by getting mad, when they didn't call her vicco.
And that was about it, she missed a few months of school, started going into the men's room and shortly before school's end even got a girlfriend.

What my point is: It's one thing to interact with transexuals for a short amount of time and be a nice person during that. That's easy. What's difficult is dealing with one for a long amount of time, preferably during the time of change. You can't just state some rules and tell everyone to be nice and comfortable then.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The gist of your comment seems to be "it's easy to be polite to transgendered people unless you're transphohic like me" Not trying to b a dick, that seriously seems to be what you're saying.

Shocksplicer:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The gist of your comment seems to be "it's easy to be polite to transgendered people unless you're transphohic like me" Not trying to b a dick, that seriously seems to be what you're saying.

Then read again. But just to be sure:
Did YOU have any prolonged interaction with a transsexual person before and during their time of change?

Amaror:

Shocksplicer:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The gist of your comment seems to be "it's easy to be polite to transgendered people unless you're transphohic like me" Not trying to b a dick, that seriously seems to be what you're saying.

Then read again. But just to be sure:
Did YOU have any prolonged interaction with a transsexual person before and during their time of change?

No, but I know transgendered people and have no problem with calling them what they want.

And don't just tel me to read your post again, explain what you meant, because it very much isn't clear in your post.

I've always thought of it as a case of someone having female software and male hardware (or vice versa), and I can't imagine how difficult that must be for the person. As far as I know I've never met a trans person (though it's entirely possible I'm either just completely unobservant or HRT has gotten really effective), but I'd hope that if I do, I'd be able to talk to them without colossally fucking it up.

Abomination:

Jegsimmons:
that does bring up an interesting point about inconvenience on this subject.
Just recently a family won a lawsuit to let their 6 year old boy use the girls bathroom.
1. he's six. shame on the parents for taking that seriously. thats not being progressive, thats being fucking stupid.
2. they wasted court time for a 6 year old who liked to dress up like a girl to use the girls restroom.
3. what if the 6 year old decides not be a girl anymore, because he's six and this should be taking as seriously as when he says he wants to grow up to be spiderman or a power ranger...because he's six.

Then again this same family hasn't produced a normal child yet that didn't suffer from either brain damage or advanced autism (not making light of those situations, far from it, just making a point) and are allowing a 6 year old boy to dress up as a girl and useing the womens restroom before he'd developed any form of sexual maturity.

So if thats going on for just a stupid 6 year old, high school ( i imagine) can get really complicated.

Six and they are certain about their gender?

I'm calling bullshit. I'm picturing the mother has read too many new age magazines and since her boy likes pink he must want to be a girl and is pushing him towards this... might even be doing it for any potential settlement money.

I'd go so far as to say the other kids have "alleged" autism.

Well they are californians and the husbands eyes look souless and sucked out, so thats probably the case.

just as bad as the 11 year old boy whose lesbian mothers are letting take hormone therapy at his age.
Never mind the fact that's crazy ass parody shit conservatives were terrified (not unfounded) a few years ago, but the fact they're letting him do it at a young age that can kill him is just bad fucking parenting.
(fucking up ones hormones during puberty like that can cause stunted growth or poor body and brain development and even weakness in lungs and heart or cancer)

Shocksplicer:

Amaror:

Shocksplicer:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The gist of your comment seems to be "it's easy to be polite to transgendered people unless you're transphohic like me" Not trying to b a dick, that seriously seems to be what you're saying.

Then read again. But just to be sure:
Did YOU have any prolonged interaction with a transsexual person before and during their time of change?

No, but I know transgendered people and have no problem with calling them what they want.

And don't just tel me to read your post again, explain what you meant, because it very much isn't clear in your post.

It's a bit difficult to describe if you haven't experienced it yourself.
Just for the record, i never had a problem with calling her vicco, it was just that she wasn't a nice person anymore, maybe because of hormons, i don't know, but she became very rude and hostile towards everybody.
I know some transsexual persons myself and as i said, it is easy interacting with those, that are already done. It's easy to treat them normal, because they mostly are, no matter what they used to be. But it's really hard dealing with someone going through the change. It involves a lot of complications and can easily lead to really ugly situations.
It is a really difficult situation and you can't just come up with a few rules and call everyone transphobic, who doesn't act like nothings going on.
I realize that this may sound transphobic or something, but you can't imagine or understand a situation like this unless you experienced it yourself.

Amaror:
It's a bit difficult to describe if you haven't experienced it yourself.
Just for the record, i never had a problem with calling her vicco, it was just that she wasn't a nice person anymore, maybe because of hormons, i don't know, but she became very rude and hostile towards everybody.
I know some transsexual persons myself and as i said, it is easy interacting with those, that are already done. It's easy to treat them normal, because they mostly are, no matter what they used to be. But it's really hard dealing with someone going through the change. It involves a lot of complications and can easily lead to really ugly situations.
It is a really difficult situation and you can't just come up with a few rules and call everyone transphobic, who doesn't act like nothings going on.
I realize that this may sound transphobic or something, but you can't imagine or understand a situation like this unless you experienced it yourself.

I want to understand you. What parts were the most problematic? It sounds like a part of the problem were ugly situations - could you give me some examples? Another seems to be how your friend reacted by becoming mean, and yet another seems to be how you can not exactly ask everyone to start ignoring things. Could you elaborate please?

As for rules and guidelines I have found one that works for me. It is not necessarily treating everyone the same, because that depends on how you treat people in general (you could be treating everyone the same in a way that only some like by calling everyone a "raging buttpirate" for example). My guideline is to let people hold the right of self-identification and treat them accordingly. This right is related to my respect for them and they can revoke it or make it infeasible, but in all cases discussed here it is not. No one has asked me to consider them royalty yet (OK) and have me literally bend a knee (less OK) or have sex with them unconditionally based on what they think of themselves (not OK; and it feels like this is more common with regular men pining for women btw).

dversion:

Subscriptism:

dversion:

They are a woman who was once gender identified as a man.

That really doesn't help. Born with a male or female body?

Born with a male body, identifies as female.
Sorry, I wasn't clear before.

No problem, thanks for that, it has led to confusion too many times before.

As someone who has known a trans person for a long time, I've actually spoken to her about this stuff quite a bit.

Just treat them as the gender they want to be treated as. Call the ones that identify as female "she" and the ones that identify as male "he."

Also, treat them like they're people, not some strange exotic creature. Whether this makes you treat them worse or better doesn't matter. Don't do this shit. It pisses them off just as much as it would piss you off.

Boom, done, everything you every needed to know about interacting with one summed up. "Just treat them like people."

mike1921:
Useful for anyone who's open minded and doesn't know any transexuals or hasn't ever looked into this kind of thing before but...

Proto Taco:

Guideline 4) The status of whatever happens to reside between a trans person's legs is strictly on a need to know basis. If you're not planning on getting intimate with that trans individual you do not need to know. Simply letting this go will solve more gender tension than you may first realize.

THat sounds like a very person to person thing. People talk about genitals in their day to day life all the time and people are very varied on how comfortable they are with certain things. I wouldn't go ask some random girl about their vagina but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't be willing to reference it talking to their friends male or female in certain contexts.

When it comes to what is and isn't a touchy subject "it depends on the person" is always the answer. There are rape victims who enjoy rape jokes and rape roleplay but that doesn't mean to invite Daniel Tosh to a woman's crisis center before offering to rape them all.

True enough, the trouble is that people tend to be more likely to use genitals as an 'ice breaker' with trans individuals, even before they get to know them well enough that it would be considered 'normal' to start talking about each other's 'junk'.

Amaror:

Shocksplicer:

Amaror:
[quote="Shocksplicer" post="18.821392.19849879"]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The gist of your comment seems to be "it's easy to be polite to transgendered people unless you're transphohic like me" Not trying to b a dick, that seriously seems to be what you're saying.

Then read again. But just to be sure:
Did YOU have any prolonged interaction with a transsexual person before and during their time of change?

No, but I know transgendered people and have no problem with calling them what they want.

And don't just tel me to read your post again, explain what you meant, because it very much isn't clear in your post.

It's a bit difficult to describe if you haven't experienced it yourself.
Just for the record, i never had a problem with calling her vicco, it was just that she wasn't a nice person anymore, maybe because of hormons, i don't know, but she became very rude and hostile towards everybody.
I know some transsexual persons myself and as i said, it is easy interacting with those, that are already done. It's easy to treat them normal, because they mostly are, no matter what they used to be. But it's really hard dealing with someone going through the change. It involves a lot of complications and can easily lead to really ugly situations.
It is a really difficult situation and you can't just come up with a few rules and call everyone transphobic, who doesn't act like nothings going on.
I realize that this may sound transphobic or something, but you can't imagine or understand a situation like this unless you experienced it yourself.[/

I think he probably felt alone and theat nobody liked him. I'm bisexual, and I can tell you that identity stuff like that can be really difficult to come to terms with.
Thanks for sharing, and for the record I don't think you're transphobic. :)

EDIT- Yeah, the quoting got kinda messed up... somehow, but I'm typing this on a PS Vita, so I can't be bothered fixing it.

Proto Taco:

Guideline 6) If someone denies they're trans, regardless of how strong your suspicions may be, just let it go. Being trans is dangerous; your odds of being murdered go up to 1 in 12 if you're trans and the majority of trans murderers get off scot free.

I don't mean to sound rude in asking this, but do you have a source on this statistic? I've never heard of somebody getting off for a murder just because his victim was somebody that people tend to be intolerant towards. If anything hate crimes are taken even more seriously. Forensics makes it damn difficult to get away with murders these days, so I wouldn't think the jurors would let the killer off in the face of incontrovertible evidence, regardless of what they think of the victim.

Helmholtz Watson:

Proto Taco:

Guideline 8) Trans individuals are not 'fake' men/women. They are very real, they are just as invested in their gender as you are in yours and they are doing their best to measure up to society's expectations of them even if they can't quite reach the cisgender benchmark. A transwoman is not 'really a man' and a transman is not 'really a woman'.

You are entitled to your personal opinion that there isn't a difference between transsexuals and regular men and women, and I am by no means advocating harassment/discrimination towards those that feel this way, but your opinion isn't medical fact. Transwoman/men are no more "real women/men" in the same way that the naturally blonde haired Emma Stone is as much of natural redhead as those that are "real redhead". While you can always point to exceptions(as most people are so quick to do), "real women/men" don't have surgery to reconstruct their genitals so that they can become a "woman/man"-their born with that genitalia[1]

See the problem here is you're equating being a man/woman with being male/female. What you are talking about is being male/female. What I'm talking about is being a man/woman. Of course given the limits of modern medicine trans individuals can't achieve perfect sexual anatomy, but neither can cisgendered men/women. Additionally, yes, I AM equating being trans with being deformed because that's exactly what it is; gross, body-wide deformation. It may be a mostly functional deformation, but it is still an abnormal body and requires chemical and reconstructive measures to make it functional and 'normal'.

[1] Save yourself the time by pointing out someone who has born deformed or had an accident because what you are doing is either:

A)comparing deformed "real women/men" with transsexuals, which doesn't make transsexuals seem more "normal" or "healthy".
B)demonstrating that outside forces(see:car crashes, violent fights, animal attacks, work related injuries, ect.) are needed in order for your claim that "real women/men" are no different from transsexuals, and that without the work of outside forces your claim doesn't hold up.

V da Mighty Taco:

Proto Taco:
*Snip*

To anyone reading this, I'm going to say this right now - I'm about to say something that will be very controversial to all sides of the debate.

I agree with much of what the OP said and am a big advocate of tolerance / acceptance of transgenders. However, the notion that transgenders are 100% the gender that they're seeking to be is more than debatable and is not something you can treat as an absolute fact. The technicalities of what makes someone a particular gender goes far more than what genitals or even hormones they have (chromosomes are one thing that spring to mind) and this is a subject where I simply don't think there is an easy answer for.

Now that does not mean that they should be condemned in any way for their unique status; far from it. The way transgenders get treated by many people is truly abysmal and goes to show just how screwed up / backwards our societies are even today. However, I do reject the notion that the state of a transgender's... well.... gender is something you can always say is an absolute certainty.

You're absolutely right, that's why I put this guide up. This guide is my attempt at making it easier to deal with the ambiguity that arises when you encounter a trans individual. Ultimately someone's gender is what they say it is and indeed, in some cultures there are more than two genders because they simply think it's absurd to try and push people into one of two molds.

I would just caution you against attempting to 'define' being a man/woman, because it's never going to work. As you said there's simply too much nuance to someone's identity to easily file it away. I think we're both in agreement though, that whatever their gender happens to be they still deserve respect and equality.

Belated:

Proto Taco:

Guideline 6) If someone denies they're trans, regardless of how strong your suspicions may be, just let it go. Being trans is dangerous; your odds of being murdered go up to 1 in 12 if you're trans and the majority of trans murderers get off scot free.

I don't mean to sound rude in asking this, but do you have a source on this statistic? I've never heard of somebody getting off for a murder just because his victim was somebody that people tend to be intolerant towards. If anything hate crimes are taken even more seriously. Forensics makes it damn difficult to get away with murders these days, so I wouldn't think the jurors would let the killer off in the face of incontrovertible evidence, regardless of what they think of the victim.

There is a serious problem with this, yes. A lot of police and paramedics the world over don't take trans people seriously. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter

The trans panic defense (similar to the gay panic defense) isn't a a get out of gaol card, but it's quite useful.

Senare:

I want to understand you. What parts were the most problematic? It sounds like a part of the problem were ugly situations - could you give me some examples? Another seems to be how your friend reacted by becoming mean, and yet another seems to be how you can not exactly ask everyone to start ignoring things. Could you elaborate please?

In this particular situation, the most ugly situation was caused by her love letter to that other girl. More significantly it was the girl that she was the best friend with in our class.
Since everyone already knew that she wanted to be a guy, this love letter clearly showed that she was attracted to girls and nobody really knew if her process had started already or what in general was going on with that (Not that that was any of our business anyway, but it's important for the point), it lead to the fact that the girls didn't wanted her in their locker room anymore. The guys obviously didn't want her in their locker room, either, so she had to use another room to change all by herself for PE class.
This isolation, coupled with the fact that this love letter created a distance between her and her former best friend, which basically broke the friendship, lead to her isolating herself from pretty much the whole school. I think, because she didn't want to have anything to do with anyone that knew her as a girl.

thaluikhain:

Belated:

Proto Taco:

Guideline 6) If someone denies they're trans, regardless of how strong your suspicions may be, just let it go. Being trans is dangerous; your odds of being murdered go up to 1 in 12 if you're trans and the majority of trans murderers get off scot free.

I don't mean to sound rude in asking this, but do you have a source on this statistic? I've never heard of somebody getting off for a murder just because his victim was somebody that people tend to be intolerant towards. If anything hate crimes are taken even more seriously. Forensics makes it damn difficult to get away with murders these days, so I wouldn't think the jurors would let the killer off in the face of incontrovertible evidence, regardless of what they think of the victim.

There is a serious problem with this, yes. A lot of police and paramedics the world over don't take trans people seriously. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter

The trans panic defense (similar to the gay panic defense) isn't a a get out of gaol card, but it's quite useful.

Wow. That is a compelling example. But at the same time, it's a 1995 example. And attitudes toward gay rights and political correctness (not to mention attitudes toward not-wanting-to-be-sued-ness) have changed an awful lot in the last decades. Do you have a more up-to-date example/statistic? Plus, if her mother was awarded a settlement, that's not exactly the killers "getting off Scott-free" like the OP said.

Belated:

Proto Taco:

Guideline 6) If someone denies they're trans, regardless of how strong your suspicions may be, just let it go. Being trans is dangerous; your odds of being murdered go up to 1 in 12 if you're trans and the majority of trans murderers get off scot free.

I don't mean to sound rude in asking this, but do you have a source on this statistic? I've never heard of somebody getting off for a murder just because his victim was somebody that people tend to be intolerant towards. If anything hate crimes are taken even more seriously. Forensics makes it damn difficult to get away with murders these days, so I wouldn't think the jurors would let the killer off in the face of incontrovertible evidence, regardless of what they think of the victim.

'Scot free' is a bit of a subjective term but when someone gets a scant few months for brutally beating a trans person to death in cold blood and then leaving her to die I would call that 'scot free'. Problem is trans crimes are frequently not considered 'hate crimes' they're more commonly considered 'heat of the moment' crimes. Usually the excuse goes that the murderer in question 'didn't know' the person they were dealing with was trans and when they found out they simply were too upset to handle it and 'accidentally' killed them in the resulting fit of rage at being 'deceived'.

One rather well known case of this was Gwen Araujo, however it doesn't take much digging to find others.

Belated:
Wow. That is a compelling example. But at the same time, it's a 1995 example. And attitudes toward gay rights and political correctness (not to mention attitudes toward not-wanting-to-be-sued-ness) have changed an awful lot in the last decades. Do you have a more up-to-date example/statistic? Plus, if her mother was awarded a settlement, that's not exactly the killers "getting off Scott-free" like the OP said.

Hmmm...not off the top of my head, might have to google that.

However, from wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people

It mentions the first murder of a transgender individual treated as a hate crime was only in 2008.

Belated:

Wow. That is a compelling example. But at the same time, it's a 1995 example. And attitudes toward gay rights and political correctness (not to mention attitudes toward not-wanting-to-be-sued-ness) have changed an awful lot in the last decades. Do you have a more up-to-date example/statistic? Plus, if her mother was awarded a settlement, that's not exactly the killers "getting off Scott-free" like the OP said.

You've actually hit on another big problem; trans people aren't even on the majority of statistical radars. Most people don't even hear about trans murders because they're rarely considered hate crimes and are succinctly swept under the rug to avoid 'embarrassment'. Still more people don't even know trans is a real 'thing'. Most people think 'trans' just refers to the drag queens on sitcoms and in movies, most don't realize how deep transgender issues run. So while gay rights have taken major leaps forward trans rights are still sitting back in the 60s-70s. That's why it's so hard to find current reports and statistics on trans individuals, because no one is doing them.

Ironic, really, when you consider that the woman who was a driving force in getting the LGBT movement actually moving was trans.

Amaror:
At the chance of looking like a dick, i am going to say this.
It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one.
No i don't mean meeting one in a bar or on the street (Which you won't notice anyway) or talking to one for an hour, i mean really dealing with them.
Let me tell you a story.
Back when i was in school, we got a new girl in our class, vicky, who looked quite a bit like a little boy. And no, not what you think, she really was an actual girl. All fine and well. While she wasn't particularly pretty, she was a nice person and quickly got some friends, me included. Now about half a year after that, she started asking everyone questions. Questions like:"What do you like about being a man/woman?" You know, pretty weird, uncomfortable making questions.
But that wasn't too much of a problem either. What became more of a problem was that she wanted everyone to start calling her vicco. By then everyone had figured out what was going on and there were some people who simply refused calling her by her new name, but it wasn't too bad.
Then she wrote a love letter to one of the girls in our class. One the girls that she was previously been friends with. Now that was a problem. The girls weren't comfortable undressing in front of her anymore, when they were changing before PE class. The boys obviously didn't want her in their locker room, either. She ended up having to change in a little room for herself then.
And it didn't get any better, after that costed her many friends, she drove the other ones off, by getting mad, when they didn't call her vicco.
And that was about it, she missed a few months of school, started going into the men's room and shortly before school's end even got a girlfriend.

What my point is: It's one thing to interact with transexuals for a short amount of time and be a nice person during that. That's easy. What's difficult is dealing with one for a long amount of time, preferably during the time of change. You can't just state some rules and tell everyone to be nice and comfortable then.

What a load of...
So, what you're saying is that kids struggling with identity are sometimes difficult to deal with?
What an amazing discovery! Stop the presses! Why hasn't anyone told science about this?

I don't see how this anecdote of yours could be seen as anything other than prejudice.
First clue, you refer to _a_ transgendered person as "one of them".

chikusho:

What a load of...
So, what you're saying is that kids struggling with identity are sometimes difficult to deal with?
What an amazing discovery! Stop the presses! Why hasn't anyone told science about this?

I don't see how this anecdote of yours could be seen as anything other than prejudice.
First clue, you refer to _a_ transgendered person as "one of them".

First: You can think of my story whatever you like, i don't care.
Second: I never said "one of them", granted i said "one", but that was just a formulation of mine, because i couldn't think of another way to write it. I mean, give me a break, it's not my native language or anything.
Third: I am not sure you know what prejudice means. It means Prejudgment, as in making a decision about someone, something, before getting to know them. What i described was an experience of mine that i had with a transsexual person. I never said that every transsexual person would react the same way, or would be equally difficult to deal with.
My point simply was that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it.
That may be kind of obvious to some people, but it tends to be forgotten in discussions like this.

Didn't read the guide. I always try to treat people in the same respectful way, regardless of appearance.
If you feel so special that you need people to follow certain guidelines not to be offended, that ain't my problem.

Amaror:

First: You can think of my story whatever you like, i don't care.
Second: I never said "one of them", granted i said "one", but that was just a formulation of mine, because i couldn't think of another way to write it. I mean, give me a break, it's not my native language or anything.
Third: I am not sure you know what prejudice means. It means Prejudgment, as in making a decision about someone, something, before getting to know them. What i described was an experience of mine that i had with a transsexual person. I never said that every transsexual person would react the same way, or would be equally difficult to deal with.
My point simply was that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it.
That may be kind of obvious to some people, but it tends to be forgotten in discussions like this.

First: Obviously, it's sometimes hard recognizing your own flaws.
Second: You are using your personal anecdote as evidence that "It is all nice and fine talking about treating transexual just like normal people, etc. until you really have to deal with one."
Third: Your entire point was to pre-judge transexuals as being hard to deal with, implying that when they are hard to deal with you can't expect others to treat them as normal people.

Finally, sure, you "never said that every transsexual person would react the same way", but you're using it as a blanket statement for all transexuals with your very first sentence, and in your summary, and make no kind of effort anywhere in the post to make any reader believe otherwise.
If what you wanted to say was, "that you can't just put up a set of rules on how to deal with transsexual people and demonize anyone, who has trouble doing so and always acting normal while doing it", perhaps you should take this as a lesson and learn to express yourself better. Perhaps by saying what you meant from the start. This, possibly without realizing that the word "transexual" is completely inconsequential to your story.

But again... it's an anomaly and hardly happens.

It doesn't matter if its infrequent. An exception still counts, and why do we have to be practical? We cant keep track of <1% of the population, because as far as im concerned we already have been, so its a really a moot point when you bring in practicality.

Because thats how it works. Gay may be a choice or orientatition that isnt defined by genes (and dont anyone get on my case about this, if you deny its a choice or non gene related, you're throwing the idea of free will and choice under the bus and i quiet frankly find that more insulting to the gay community), but gender/sex is.
If you're born with a dick, you're a dude, hermaphrodite not withstanding.
And yes chromosomes and genes are a blue print for your body, they tell what sex/gender you will be. the X and Y chromosome.
If it doesn't, then whats to stop me from artificially making my skin darker and claiming im of Sub saharan decent? Oh wait i forgot, that would be considered racist despite what i feel and i still wouldn't have the body structure (both skeletal, mental, genetic, ect) to prove i was of that race even if i feel like it.

Look, it you're trans, and want to identify as the opposite sex, fine, but just remember that just because you 'feel' like the opposite sex, doesn't mean you are, especially on a genetic level.

Because that's how it works.

Thats like responding to, how do babies come to life, with "science". You have to be a bit more detailed.

If it doesn't, then whats to stop me from artificially making my skin darker and claiming im of Sub saharan decent? Oh wait i forgot, that would be considered racist despite what i feel and i still wouldn't have the body structure (both skeletal, mental, genetic, ect) to prove i was of that race even if i feel like it.

Nothings stoping you from doing that, and people have done it in the past so its not unheard of. Africans have GENERALLY different body structures yes. But then there are africans who dont even fit there own general structures. So if you really wanted to look african, then you could, you would just be an unusual looking African.

if you deny its a choice or non gene related, you're throwing the idea of free will and choice under the bus and i quiet frankly find that more insulting to the gay community), but gender/sex is.
If you're born with a dick, you're a dude, hermaphrodite not withstanding.
And yes chromosomes and genes are a blue print for your body, they tell what sex/gender you will be. the X and Y chromosome.

You keep on repeating, "chromosomes determine sex", "having a penis determines sex". You kind of have to explain why.
Even the medical community isn't that dogmatic on the topic you know? A babies sex isn't determined by a XY/XX test. It's determined by a glance at it's genitals. And when the child is a ambiguous case, they usually do surgical intervention to make the child into the gender they would fit best as, with the parents consent usually. So chromosomes arent even considered majorly. I have a source to back me up( http://www.mcgeorge.edu/documents/publications/05_Curtis_FINAL.pdf ) on this and ill post the relevant info below , spoilered from page 843.

Look, it you're trans, and want to identify as the opposite sex, fine, but just remember that just because you 'feel' like the opposite sex, doesn't mean you are, especially on a genetic level.

Your right, on the genetic level inter sexed and transgender women alot of times arent genetically XX as a regular women would be. Thats only ONE scope of being a women that you look through. There are so many other definitions of women that they apply to, that it wouldn't make sense not to call them both women just because they miss one definition. I mean even some genetic women don't fall into all the scopes required to "be a women". Like being able to reproduce, or having breast, since some get their genitals removed. It doesn't stop them from being women.

if you're a guy dating a trans person who was a guy and has a dick...you're probably gay (or bi). If the penis is removed...its still kind of gay whether or not you might be gay, depends on your knowledge of them being what ever and what you enjoy out of it....still kind of gay in my opinion.

I didnt know you had the authority to call people gay or straight. Either way i cant stop you from having a opinion on it, but ya know just consider that if its gay to date a MtF, its straight to date a FtM...

So if that's your idea of a straight encounter then, have at it.

FtM is actually possible? didn't know a penis transplant was possible.
*looks it up*
turns out it was first successfully done in 2006 but had to be reversed 15 days later. turns out too many issues go into it working and its waay too damn risky and expensive.

so even though they look like dudes....they still have everything down below and are women.
and personally...ugly ass women (hey, im not attracted to male features, of course im gonna think they make ugly women)

Its not a penis transplant they use in the cases, its a Phalloplasty(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalloplasty).

And tbh i believe most FtM dont even get the surgery, since its much more expensive than the MtF operation, and less functional.

a BBW is a 'big bodied woman', it means fat woman. also trans just doesnt roll off the tongue...words that end in 'y' are fun to say. and of course you wouldn't use MILF its an acronym containing the word 'fuck'. hences why useing the word 'FUBAR' gets you at least a PG rating on tv.

Weather its Big bodied woman or big breasted women, the term is used both ways in the porn industry.

words that end in 'y' are fun to say

So because a word is fun to say, but causes greif knowingly to people, you will use it anyways? I mean i could make the same argument with the word "negro". "Words that end in O are fun to say, so let me use the word regardless of the consequences.

And ya maybe you wouldnt use the word MILF/DILF, but there are other words like cougar or someones "dirty thirties" that you just wouldn't use in causal conversation due to its crudeness.

a hermaphrodite or genetic mutation is an exception, they had no choice in the matter and are considered a 'mutation'.
are you saying trans people suffer from mutations? because thats going in dangerous territory.

No being transgender cant be proven reasonably well to be a mutation, that doesnt stop them from still being women. You have the notion that in order to be a women that you have to be born one. Someones birth doesnt really matter in this case, since we defines things how they ARE, not how they WERE.

An example would be that if you owned a wooden chair.
That chair was made out of a tree and scrap metal probably. So if you said to me, "Sit down on that tree with scrap metal", it wouldnt really be contextual right? Since the chair doesn't really look anything like a tree. I guess you would parallel this to transgenderism by saying that you have a trans women, that trans women use to be a man. If you pointed to someone who looked like a women, and said "Hey Sir". That would just be contextually wrong. Now there is the case of the transgender women not passing well, but then she would just be a ugly women, not a man. Or in the chair example, a crappy chair.

And sorry you feel that way, but just because i have strong opinions and choose not to think exactly the way others think, even though it doesn't effect my ability to treat them as human beings doesn't make one a bigot.

What exactly do you thing being a bigot means? You keep on mentioning you arent one, i never said you were. Your just dogmatic on a issue. And you have kind of showed that you DO lack the ability to treat human beings well, since transgender people are human too, they just don't jive with your view of sex/gender, and therefore you cause them greif, by not even giving them the curiosity to call them their preferred pronouns.

Example...i don't like homosexuality. Do i criticize others for their choice in life style? no. And i going to be an ass to them because of it? No. I can tolerate it just fine and go on with my life, doesn't mean i have to like it.
That doesn't make me a bigot does it? After all, im not hating the person, i can get along with a gay person just fine and regularly do, i just dislike the idea of the lifestyle and find it gross. Its my opinion that isn't shown in any of my day to day actions.

Do i criticize others for their choice in life style? no.

You kind of DO criticize since you are so vehement on mis-gendering trans people just "cause". And if you could trully "tolerate", then calling a transgender women, a women, wouldnt even be a issue now would it?

Its my opinion that isn't shown in any of my day to day actions.

When you act on your opinion, it does, so when you say you'll call a transgender women a man, it kind of does make it shown.

What people, especially on the left, fail to realize that tolerance and acceptance are two completely things, you can't force anyone to accept anything they do not wish to. Because thats fascism. And if someone doesn't like X group for what ever reason. FINE thats their choice. just like its X groups choice to live like they do. If you force it, then all you'll do is create resentment.

Fascism is about loyalty to the state. There isnt a state of transpeople trying to make you prove your loyalties. Alot of them are just as dogmatic as you are yes, but when they are treated so harshly, what is any other discourse they can really take? I mean during the civil rights movement, black people weren't passive all the time, they showed passion and determination in their views, and any liberal fascism you try and call on them is probably the same.

They just don't want to be mis-gendered. That's pretty much it. They know a lot of people don't agree with the way they live their lives, that's why alot of them commit suicide in the first place. All i really want is some forethought from you. Why would you intentionally cause someone grief, when you, a man of "tolerance" can already display that he has the capacity to limit his opinions? It's just unnecessarily cruel.

Just treat them like you would do others and apologise if they take offense to pronouns, no rules needed. It's rather easy to avoid pronouns altogether and just ask their name and use that. To my shame I must say I haven't used that trick with any transgenders (cus I honestly don't know any) but with boys / girls whose sex was hard to distinguish at first.

Jegsimmons:

Abomination:

Jegsimmons:
that does bring up an interesting point about inconvenience on this subject.
Just recently a family won a lawsuit to let their 6 year old boy use the girls bathroom.
1. he's six. shame on the parents for taking that seriously. thats not being progressive, thats being fucking stupid.
2. they wasted court time for a 6 year old who liked to dress up like a girl to use the girls restroom.
3. what if the 6 year old decides not be a girl anymore, because he's six and this should be taking as seriously as when he says he wants to grow up to be spiderman or a power ranger...because he's six.

Then again this same family hasn't produced a normal child yet that didn't suffer from either brain damage or advanced autism (not making light of those situations, far from it, just making a point) and are allowing a 6 year old boy to dress up as a girl and useing the womens restroom before he'd developed any form of sexual maturity.

So if thats going on for just a stupid 6 year old, high school ( i imagine) can get really complicated.

Six and they are certain about their gender?

I'm calling bullshit. I'm picturing the mother has read too many new age magazines and since her boy likes pink he must want to be a girl and is pushing him towards this... might even be doing it for any potential settlement money.

I'd go so far as to say the other kids have "alleged" autism.

Well they are californians and the husbands eyes look souless and sucked out, so thats probably the case.

just as bad as the 11 year old boy whose lesbian mothers are letting take hormone therapy at his age.
Never mind the fact that's crazy ass parody shit conservatives were terrified (not unfounded) a few years ago, but the fact they're letting him do it at a young age that can kill him is just bad fucking parenting.
(fucking up ones hormones during puberty like that can cause stunted growth or poor body and brain development and even weakness in lungs and heart or cancer)

Dont worry about the HRT, as long as they are given their regiment by a doctor, and have their blood work monitored, transition shouldn't be a major health risk. Not that im sure you even care, why focus on the child's well being, when if meeting them in person you would mis gender them and cause them pain? Seems so odd.

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