You Can't Be the Hero If You're the Rapist

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Im pretty sure that somewhere out there theres a hentai game where a man has to save the world by fucking it.

punkrocker27:
maybe because it's not real

But is the stimulation effect on the brain the same? Our reaction to dreams is said to be the same as actual actions. And daydreams are still dreams-so are video games similarly immersive to our brains? Is it real on a visceral level?

If so, should we not be cautious what kind of themes we inject into our brains? After all, garbage in-garbage out. And would it trivialize the trauma of the victims or make actual rapists feel their actions are more justified since it theme would be mainstream? Would we see even more horrible events like this:

http://www.switched.com/2009/06/08/man-hires-someone-on-craigslist-to-rape-his-wife/

http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/your-brain-on-dreams-the-science-of-dreaming/article24430.html

On the flip side, is anyone arguing that they want to play a game where they are the victim of a rape or a helpless character that gets killed over and over? No. Although such a game could be made and done well in the horror genera, where the main character sees the world through a glass darkly, I doubt people would want to play it since it would be very uncomfortable. It isn't fun to play a victim that DOESN'T get to go on that "quest for revenge".

(Aside for Eugenics arguement: In Nature, the female chooses what male she thinks has the best traits for her offspring. She has the largest investment. If she does not want those genes and is forced to breed she will most likely reject the offspring.

You aren't suggesting that women CHOOSE from a "quality gene pool" and get artificially inseminated. So your arguement has no legs to stand on. You might want to try the book "The Genius Factory" if you really want a look at the topic of eugenics. Or maybe play Bioshock.

Gyrefalcon:

But is the stimulation effect on the brain the same? Our reaction to dreams is said to be the same as actual actions. And daydreams are still dreams-so are video games similarly immersive to our brains? Is it real on a visceral level?

If so, should we not be cautious what kind of themes we inject into our brains? After all, garbage in-garbage out. And would it trivialize the trauma of the victims or make actual rapists feel their actions are more justified since it theme would be mainstream? Would we see even more horrible events like this:

If you're going to make this argument against rape in media, I would like to know if you're prepared to make the same argument against plain-jane violence in media (and if so, I don't know that you're going to find very many sympathetic ears on this forum). But, yes, WE should be cautious what kind of themes we inject into our brains; each and every one of us is responsible for that for OURSELVES (and our offspring up to the age of consent). The issue at hand is whether you are responsible for what OTHERS inject into their brains, and the answer is a resounding NO, except where you can prove specific damage to the innocent.

On the flip side, is anyone arguing that they want to play a game where they are the victim of a rape or a helpless character that gets killed over and over? No. Although such a game could be made and done well in the horror genera, where the main character sees the world through a glass darkly, I doubt people would want to play it since it would be very uncomfortable. It isn't fun to play a victim that DOESN'T get to go on that "quest for revenge".

In the case of rape fantasies of being the "victim", the role is submissive. I think videogames are a particularly poorly suited (at least of anything I can think of off the top of my head) to giving the player a submissive role. But if it could be done effectively, yes, I think there would be people who would enjoy it.

A scene with this content could be used to disturbing effect in a horror game if handled correctly.

Gyrefalcon:

punkrocker27:
maybe because it's not real

But is the stimulation effect on the brain the same? Our reaction to dreams is said to be the same as actual actions. And daydreams are still dreams-so are video games similarly immersive to our brains? Is it real on a visceral level?

There is no 'visceral level' on which the violation of another's rights occurs. No matter how violent the sex is, if there is consent, it's not rape. No matter how peaceful the sex is, if there *isn't* consent, it *is* rape.

"(Aside for Eugenics arguement: In Nature, the female chooses what male she thinks has the best traits for her offspring. She has the largest investment. If she does not want those genes and is forced to breed she will most likely reject the offspring. "

uhhhh

To point out, there are a bunch of animals where the male de facto rapes females as the default way to mate and the female raises the offspring anyway.

"On the flip side, is anyone arguing that they want to play a game where they are the victim of a rape or a helpless character that gets killed over and over? No. "

To point out, the japanese site that 4chan was based off of voted an eroge where you DO get killed over and over again as the number 1 game of 2008.

So yeah, even your entirely speculative scenario has happened and been enjoyed (although I'll admit that the main point of the game isn't the repeated deaths)

MaxTheReaper:

Muphin_Mann:

What sort of effed up world do you live in where you can justify murder? And you use a fictional serial killer as your case-in-point?

Show me a police officer who does as much good in the real world as Dexter does in the fictional world.

If you looked really hard, you might find one.
I believe very firmly in "Pay Evil Unto Evil."
I linked the short version.

A: I find it disturbing that you subscribe to that theory. By that logic Isralies could launch a nuclear attack against Germany. Just paying them back for the nazi thing.

B: Also, i will not provide a real police officer while you get to give a highly unrealistic fictional character as your example.
B2: And dont try to use the guy from Saw either.

Muphin_Mann:

A: I find it disturbing that you subscribe to that theory. By that logic Isralies could launch a nuclear attack against Germany. Just paying them back for the nazi thing.

B: Also, i will not provide a real police officer while you get to give a highly unrealistic fictional character as your example.
B2: And dont try to use the guy from Saw either.

I've never even seen SAW. I don't watch shit.

Furthermore, I'm talking more on a person-to-person basis.
Your example is stupid. Massively so.
I'm not saying, "Kill one thousand people because there's one dude who deserves it in the crowd."

Also, I don't really see how he's unrealistic. None of the things he does are beyond the capabilities of you or me.
Well. Maybe not beyond me, anyway.

Geoffrey42:
You are blurring the sexual fetish for rape (which can be acted out consensually) and the tendency of individuals to rape. You're pulling together factual tidbits (such as that nurturing fetishes makes them stronger) and adding them to speculative tidbits (such as that there is a direct correlation between rape fetish and rape crime), then making a causative claim where you don't even have evidence of correlation.

I conceed to your argument here, you make good points. I think it's somewhat self evident that someone with a fetish for rape would be more likely to commit rape, but I don't have anything to back that up.

Geoffrey42:
I would defend it just the same. The question is not whether it appeals to or repels against my personal sensibilities, the question is of censorship, and when censorship is justifiable.

I highly doubt that this argument would be taking place were the game a pedophilia simulator.

Geoffrey42:

You really think we should allow the distribution of interactive pornography that titillates the fantasies and lusts of potential rapist? Do you also think we should allow games center on the abduction and rape of four year old girls? Surly you can see how it would be a bad idea to titillate the lusts and fantasies of potential pedophiles, especially those already genetically predisposed to pedophilia. Well, there are people genetically predisposed to rape as well, and the only difference here is the age of the victims.

[quote="Geoffrey42" post="6.116823.2254963"]Yes, and yes, and surely I can't, or I wouldn't be on the side of the argument that I am.

You really don't see how it might be a bad idea to titillate the fantasies and lusts of potential pedophiles? You really don't?

Valentine82:

I conceed to your argument here, you make good points. I think it's somewhat self evident that someone with a fetish for rape would be more likely to commit rape, but I don't have anything to back that up.

No more than a person with a fetish for schoolgirl outfits is more likely to want to commit statutory rape.

Geoffrey42:
If you're going to make this argument against rape in media, I would like to know if you're prepared to make the same argument against plain-jane violence in media (and if so, I don't know that you're going to find very many sympathetic ears on this forum).

There is a big difference between sexual stimulation and violent outlets. Humans evolved to have violent tendencies but we also evolved to work together in troupes or tribes and typically our violent tendencies can be slated through competitive activities and other outlets. We evolved much more for reproduction than for violence as every generation must pass along it's genes, and since there's only been one way to resolve the need to procreate for most of our evolutionary history humans are more prone to act on sexual fantasies than we are to act on violent fantasies. Mix sexual fantasies with violent fantasies however, and you get the BTK killer.

But, yes, WE should be cautious what kind of themes we inject into our brains; each and every one of us is responsible for that for OURSELVES (and our offspring up to the age of consent). The issue at hand is whether you are responsible for what OTHERS inject into their brains, and the answer is a resounding NO, except where you can prove specific damage to the innocent.

What about when rhetoric and ideas are leading up to action, as was the case with the Fascist Party of 19'th century Germany? What about when a meme is destructive to a community, increasing the danger for ourselves, our peers, and our children? For instance, the Anti-Vacs movement has resulted in a drop in herd immunity, which is putting everyone's children at risk and we've seen a resurgence in whooping cough and other preventable illnesses, should we not confront the Anti-Vaccination movement on the harm that it's doing?

In the case of rape fantasies of being the "victim", the role is submissive.

Yes it's similar to most S&M fetishes. The interesting thing is, the people depicted in this game do not have the fetish, they are a family, they are bound and forced into sexual slavory by a gang of thugs, and they can be murdered. RapeLay is primarily controversial however because it is interactive pornography, released in a nation where an extremely large percentage of women are victimized daily.

I have no problem with a "Rape Fantasy" game being made, but RapeLay is not Rape Fantasy.

Valentine82:

Geoffrey42:
In the case of rape fantasies of being the "victim", the role is submissive.

Yes it's similar to most S&M fetishes. The interesting thing is, the people depicted in this game do not have the fetish,

How is that different from depiction of the victim/submissive in other fetishes? In fact, isn't it rare for fetish media to show the victim/submissive also possessing the fetish--the french maid in a french maid fetish piece of media isn't depicted as a person with a fetish for dressing up like a french maid: s/he is depicted as an *actual french maid*

I mean, when the "boss" comes in and has sex with the french maid, does that mean it's porn for people with a Title VII Hostile Work Environment harassment fetish?

Really, does fetish porn even depict the dominant/perpetrator as having the fetish all of the time? If it's some kind of 'jail fetish' film, aren't the 'unsavory guards' depicted as prison guards, and not just people into wearing cop uniforms while having sex?

"We evolved much more for reproduction than for violence as every generation must pass along it's genes, and since there's only been one way to resolve the need to procreate for most of our evolutionary history humans are more prone to act on sexual fantasies than we are to act on violent fantasies. Mix sexual fantasies with violent fantasies however, and you get the BTK killer."

Strictly speaking incorrect, pre "civilization" tribes would more willingly commit genocide rather than interbreeding among the conquered people.

"For instance, the Anti-Vacs movement has resulted in a drop in herd immunity, which is putting everyone's children at risk and we've seen a resurgence in whooping cough and other preventable illnesses, should we not confront the Anti-Vaccination movement on the harm that it's doing?"

That's not an argument that the IDEA of anti vaccination results in a drop of herd immunity so much as "believing in anti vaccination means that you don't take vaccinations" which doesn't apply to rape games and rape in this particular case since There isn't even a correlation to misattribute to causation.

"RapeLay is primarily controversial however because it is interactive pornography, released in a nation where an extremely large percentage of women are victimized daily."

I'm interested in where your data comes from.

Valentine82:

Geoffrey42:
If you're going to make this argument against rape in media, I would like to know if you're prepared to make the same argument against plain-jane violence in media (and if so, I don't know that you're going to find very many sympathetic ears on this forum).

There is a big difference between sexual stimulation and violent outlets. Humans evolved to have violent tendencies but we also evolved to work together in troupes or tribes and typically our violent tendencies can be slated through competitive activities and other outlets. We evolved much more for reproduction than for violence as every generation must pass along it's genes, and since there's only been one way to resolve the need to procreate for most of our evolutionary history humans are more prone to act on sexual fantasies than we are to act on violent fantasies. Mix sexual fantasies with violent fantasies however, and you get the BTK killer.

But our sexual fantasies aren't about the need for procreation. We haven't evolved for reproduction: we've evolved to have sex which has the unintended consequence of resulting in reproduction, and that activity has kept us around because natural selection favors those who reproduce regardless of *why* they are reproducing.

I mean, men are never as likely to rape as when they are in prison: clearly being prone to act on sexual...well not exactly fantasy, but sexual *inclinations* is not connected to reproduction.

And when you think about sexual fantasies, a lot of them--especially fetishes--are *il*logical from the point of view of natural selection. Unless you see them as a method of bonding like sex among Bonobo chimps, in which case, not only can sexual fantasies "be slated through competitive activities and other outlets" the sexual fantasies themselves when fulfilled by others increase our ability to "work together in troupes or tribes."

But, yes, WE should be cautious what kind of themes we inject into our brains; each and every one of us is responsible for that for OURSELVES (and our offspring up to the age of consent). The issue at hand is whether you are responsible for what OTHERS inject into their brains, and the answer is a resounding NO, except where you can prove specific damage to the innocent.

What about when rhetoric and ideas are leading up to action, as was the case with the Fascist Party of 19'th century Germany? What about when a meme is destructive to a community, increasing the danger for ourselves, our peers, and our children? For instance, the Anti-Vacs movement has resulted in a drop in herd immunity, which is putting everyone's children at risk and we've seen a resurgence in whooping cough and other preventable illnesses, should we not confront the Anti-Vaccination movement on the harm that it's doing?

There's a difference between confronting something harmful by getting the truth out there, and banning something. I don't think anyone defending this game is in favor of not promoting things that will fight back against the harm this game may do.

In fact, that's pretty much the first thing Fascists like you mentioned do: tell everyone that there are some Bad Ideas that are so dangerous we can't rely on Good Ideas to defeat them.

I have no problem with a "Rape Fantasy" game being made, but RapeLay is not Rape Fantasy.

Then what is it?

This game was actually pretty fun, you know, in an adult way. I managed to play it, get off a couple of times, and not rape any girls on the subway...in real life. Yay for me!

Krakyn:
This game was actually pretty fun, you know, in an adult way. I managed to play it, get off a couple of times, and not rape any girls on the subway...in real life. Yay for me!

Now that you've played it some in this thread will want you on a watchlist cuz you're obviously a danger now.

Terminalchaos:

Krakyn:
This game was actually pretty fun, you know, in an adult way. I managed to play it, get off a couple of times, and not rape any girls on the subway...in real life. Yay for me!

Now that you've played it some in this thread will want you on a watchlist cuz you're obviously a danger now.

Well, that would kind of suck. What does a watchlist signify anyway? Did I break the law? Does a watchlist mean they're actually going to like...watch me? Because I don't think I deserve that for playing an adult game about rape. There's tons of porn out there that does the same thing.

yeah y cant a hero be a rapist I just got done watching a show where the main character is a pedophile(I hope I spelled that right) and get raped by his ex-girlfriend after passing out from being horribly wounded...

It should be legal to make these games but I dont plan on touching them.
But I will tell how rape could be justified. If you were raping hitler, or stalin. The chance to sexually abuse a crazed facist dictator who killed millions of people would excite someone somewhere.

Krakyn:

Terminalchaos:

Krakyn:
This game was actually pretty fun, you know, in an adult way. I managed to play it, get off a couple of times, and not rape any girls on the subway...in real life. Yay for me!

Now that you've played it some in this thread will want you on a watchlist cuz you're obviously a danger now.

Well, that would kind of suck. What does a watchlist signify anyway? Did I break the law? Does a watchlist mean they're actually going to like...watch me? Because I don't think I deserve that for playing an adult game about rape. There's tons of porn out there that does the same thing.

Usually a watchlist signifies suspected guilt (kinda violates the innocent before proven guilty ideal we get taught in U.S. schools) due to "suspicious activities". I was joking; though looking at some of the comments on this thread some people probably would lock you up if they could. I agree about the porn thing - though some people think that those that like rape fantasy porn should be locked up too.

Personally I don't want anyone who enjoys playing RapeLay around me or my younger siblings the same way I wouldn't want someone who's into beastiality around my pets.

meisnewbie:
Strictly speaking incorrect, pre "civilization" tribes would more willingly commit genocide rather than interbreeding among the conquered people.

Modern tribes still commit genocide as well, we call it war. I was speaking of behaviors within the tribe, not how the tribe treats outsiders. Chances are that pre-civilization hominids were actually less prone to genocide than modern humans because they were more spread about and there was less competition, though I'm sure that they could be just as brutal as chimps when dealing with members of another troupe.

meisnewbie:
That's not an argument that the IDEA of anti vaccination results in a drop of herd immunity so much as "believing in anti vaccination means that you don't take vaccinations" which doesn't apply to rape games and rape in this particular case since There isn't even a correlation to misattribute to causation.

Still there are countless lies being told from the Anti-Vac side, they publish books and appear on talk shows, and it's an example of how an anything goes policy in regards to free speech can be harmful.

meisnewbie:
"RapeLay is primarily controversial however because it is interactive pornography, released in a nation where an extremely large percentage of women are victimized daily."

I'm interested in where your data comes from.

WOW! That's a jaw dropper given how wide spread the information is. I hate to use wikipedia as a source because so many people pull the "it doesn't count" argument but information about the prevalence of rape and sexual assault are cited all over the world is in countless news stories and studies on the issue are all over the internet, so I might as well just go with the most convenient one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frotteurism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

Valentine82:

Still there are countless lies being told from the Anti-Vac side, they publish books and appear on talk shows, and it's an example of how an anything goes policy in regards to free speech can be harmful.

Strictly speaking, this is less an issue of free speech and more an issue of education. While I agree with your main point, that free speech must sometimes be curtailed, I would add that this should only be a temporary measure in extreme situations. The root cause of the harmful behavior remains and it is imperative that that be addressed first and foremost.

This leads into your next point about Japan and its staggeringly high amount of sexual assault crimes. What is the root cause/causes?

MaxTheReaper:

I've never even seen SAW. I don't watch shit.

You should. I bet you'd love it.

Muphin_Mann:

What sort of effed up world do you live in where you can justify murder?

A world with people like the BTK (Bind, Torture, Kill) killer in it. A world where women are brutally raped every day, where women are bought and sold into sexual slavery even here in the United States. A world where we have legal murders called executions.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

But our sexual fantasies aren't about the need for procreation. We haven't evolved for reproduction: we've evolved to have sex which has the unintended consequence of resulting in reproduction, and that activity has kept us around because natural selection favors those who reproduce regardless of *why* they are reproducing.

Animals evolved to reproduce before there even was such a thing as feeling good. We do it because it feels good and because we have an instinctive drive to do it, but it feels good and we have an instinctive drive to do it because those traits help procreate our species. Anyway moot point.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I mean, men are never as likely to rape as when they are in prison: clearly being prone to act on sexual...well not exactly fantasy, but sexual *inclinations* is not connected to reproduction.

The drive towards sexual behavior evolved to facilitate our reproduction, but that doesn't mean that this is always it's function though. We evolved to have an overpowering sex drive because that makes us more prone to procreation, and even if a man is raping another man in the prison shower it's the same drive involved. Anyway this is a moot point and it's trailing off topic so I'll skip down to the end.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

I have no problem with a "Rape Fantasy" game being made, but RapeLay is not Rape Fantasy.

Then what is it?

It's a pornographic game about actually stalking, assaulting, and raping three unwilling victims who do not have the fetish.

I hope you have a daughter some day, it might give you a new perspective on this issue.

Valentine82:
I highly doubt that this argument would be taking place were the game a pedophilia simulator.

You really don't see how it might be a bad idea to titillate the fantasies and lusts of potential pedophiles? You really don't?

Both of those statements come down to "You're pulling my leg, right?" And no, I'm not pulling your leg. There might be fewer people on my side IF this were a pedophilia simulator, but I would still be having this argument. And yes, I REALLY don't how it IS a bad idea to do so, but I will acknowledge that there is a MAYBE in there. I am unwilling to condone censorship on the basis of MAYBEs and MIGHTs.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Valentine82:
What about when rhetoric and ideas are leading up to action, as was the case with the Fascist Party of 19'th century Germany? What about when a meme is destructive to a community, increasing the danger for ourselves, our peers, and our children? For instance, the Anti-Vacs movement has resulted in a drop in herd immunity, which is putting everyone's children at risk and we've seen a resurgence in whooping cough and other preventable illnesses, should we not confront the Anti-Vaccination movement on the harm that it's doing?

There's a difference between confronting something harmful by getting the truth out there, and banning something. I don't think anyone defending this game is in favor of not promoting things that will fight back against the harm this game may do.

In fact, that's pretty much the first thing Fascists like you mentioned do: tell everyone that there are some Bad Ideas that are so dangerous we can't rely on Good Ideas to defeat them.

Pretty much exactly what he said. Amen, brother. This goes back to the whole point I was making about being responsible for the ideas that go into our own heads, and not being responsible for what goes into other people's heads. You cannot control what other people are and are not allowed to think, and one of the great things about modern civilization is freedom of thought. Maybe it results in anarchy, and it all comes crashing down around us, but at least it will have been a grand experiment!

Valentine82:

It's a pornographic game about actually stalking, assaulting, and raping three unwilling victims who do not have the fetish.

I hope you have a daughter some day, it might give you a new perspective on this issue.

Still sounds like a rape fantasy game to me- its a very specific, sadistic, and violent fantasy but its still just a fantasy.

My friend has 2 daughters and still thinks that there is too much hype and negativity about this game. He agrees that the free speech is still more important. Luckily he knows how to raise his kids correctly so they can deal with crap like this later. If you see violent or offensive media and it makes you do something bad such as rape then you are either mentally unstable or you weren't raised correctly. A properly raised human can differentiate game and reality and no rape simulator is going to make them do it IRL.

Geoffrey42:

Valentine82:
I highly doubt that this argument would be taking place were the game a pedophilia simulator.

You really don't see how it might be a bad idea to titillate the fantasies and lusts of potential pedophiles? You really don't?

Both of those statements come down to "You're pulling my leg, right?" And no, I'm not pulling your leg. There might be fewer people on my side IF this were a pedophilia simulator, but I would still be having this argument. And yes, I REALLY don't how it IS a bad idea to do so, but I will acknowledge that there is a MAYBE in there. I am unwilling to condone censorship on the basis of MAYBEs and MIGHTs.

Personally I find your anything goes mentality on the issue disturbing, I have to worry about being raped because rape is something that happens where I live, and I don't want media fanning the flames of rape lust when the men around me already eye me life a F***CKing steak.

It's a bad idea to allow this crap. It encourages a way of looking at women that puts women in danger. To me RapeLay is no better than the memes that led to the holocaust. If you were a woman or had children your perspective might be quite different on this issue, because where you are now you're not put at risk by this sort of crap.

The premise here is flawed from a historical perspective. Look back at, say, Australian history and you'll see rape used to purge the Aboriginal 'stain' from the land. Rape is also constantly deployed as a weapon of war. a 'Hero' is merely the champion of a people or one who fights to further their interests. There is nothing in most definitions of 'Hero' to suggest that a 'Hero' has to be 'good' from another culture's point of view.
As for the whole 'everything in a game ultimately relates to heroism' idea, there is an increasing number of games in which the player can do all manner of ghastly things for no particular reason, not to save the day. Killing a drunk mother of a runaway by slicing her throat as she sleeps then eating her corpse does not further the cause of restoring the Capital Wasteland (In Fall Out 3)or sacrificing the mother of one's many children to the Shadows (In Fable 2) doesn't beat Lucien. For that matter, nothing the protagonists of Saint's Row 2 do is heroic except on accident.
In terms of sheer awfulness, does Rape>Casual Cannibalism/Ballistic Castration of passers-by/nuking a city full of men,women and children off of the map?

Valentine82:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

I have no problem with a "Rape Fantasy" game being made, but RapeLay is not Rape Fantasy.

Then what is it?

It's a pornographic game about actually stalking, assaulting, and raping three unwilling victims who do not have the fetish.

I hope you have a daughter some day, it might give you a new perspective on this issue.

You say toh-may-toh, I say rape fantasy. You seem really hung up on this "portrayals of characters not sharing in the fetish", but you also seem to have skipped over Cheeze_Pavilion's discourse on how the characters not being portrayed as having the fetish makes perfect sense.

One, you don't know whether or not Cheeze has a daughter. Two, I hope that someday when I have kids, I have the cajones to apply what I think is right and just and societally productive, not just what I think is most beneficial to my offspring. I know, I know... with an attitude like that, I'm bound to be an evolutionary spur. You know what? I've come to be okay with that.

You keep asking us whether or not we think it's a good idea to titillate people with this fetish, because maybe it's going to increase the instance of assault. How about you? Do you think, just maybe, that rape fantasy porn gives people with rape fetishes or tendencies a socially positive outlet, and that if we suppressed it all, they might act out more? I see that as a maybe too, and yet another reason that we shouldn't censor things without better evidence as to what the dynamics are.

*EDIT*

Valentine82:
Personally I find your anything goes mentality on the issue disturbing, I have to worry about being raped because rape is something that happens where I live, and I don't want media fanning the flames of rape lust when the men around me already eye me life a F***CKing steak.

Two things:
1. I could argue that your personal investment in the issue makes your irrational, and we should just disregard your opinion as it is quite obviously biased and invalid because of it. But I won't. Because it would be a BS tactic.
2. Your implication that because we are not women or fathers, our opinions are somehow less valid is a similarly BS tactic. Attack the merits of our arguments, or not at all. Along the same lines, by implying that the lack of a daughter, or of a gender, somehow makes me not care as deeply, you also potentially imply that I do not care about my mother, or my sister, or my significant other, and I would take that as a deep affront.

Valentine82:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

But our sexual fantasies aren't about the need for procreation. We haven't evolved for reproduction: we've evolved to have sex which has the unintended consequence of resulting in reproduction, and that activity has kept us around because natural selection favors those who reproduce regardless of *why* they are reproducing.

Animals evolved to reproduce before there even was such a thing as feeling good. We do it because it feels good and because we have an instinctive drive to do it, but it feels good and we have an instinctive drive to do it because those traits help procreate our species. Anyway moot point.

No, our evolution to do it because it feels good kinda resulted in a lot of our instincts being extinguished.

Heck, even the penis bone that is common to almost all other mammals 'evolved' out of us. The holdover of any pleasure-free reproductive instinct is limited to small biological artifacts like strippers getting bigger tips during their fertile phase.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
I mean, men are never as likely to rape as when they are in prison: clearly being prone to act on sexual...well not exactly fantasy, but sexual *inclinations* is not connected to reproduction.

The drive towards sexual behavior evolved to facilitate our reproduction,

No, it evolved as a result of mutation. It became widespread because it led to reproduction, and natural selection pressures favor reproduction. There's no teleological mechanism in evolution, at least not on this scale.

but that doesn't mean that this is always it's function though. We evolved to have an overpowering sex drive because that makes us more prone to procreation, and even if a man is raping another man in the prison shower it's the same drive involved. Anyway this is a moot point and it's trailing off topic so I'll skip down to the end.

Maybe it's a moot point: it's very easy to wind up with an unsound argument if you rely on some kind of evolution based evidence if you don't understand how evolution actually works.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

I have no problem with a "Rape Fantasy" game being made, but RapeLay is not Rape Fantasy.

Then what is it?

It's a pornographic game about actually stalking, assaulting, and raping three unwilling victims who do not have the fetish.

Why isn't it about *your character* stalking, assaulting, and raping three *characters are portrayed as unwilling victims who who do not have the fetish*

Where then is the line between a game that is a Rape Fantasy and a game that is what you said? Or are you actually saying that a game *can't* be a Rape Fantasy?

I hope you have a daughter some day, it might give you a new perspective on this issue.

What perspective will having a daughter give to someone who has a mother on this issue?

If the spread of memes that may put your spouse and offspring in danger are what you consider right and just and socially productive, so be it. You're not the only one who might end up with children, and for everyone else's sake I hope crap like this will not be tolerated by society. This game, from what I understand, depicts extreme emotional suffering among the victims involving a mother who holds out as long as she can to protect her daughters.

If you have a Rape Fantasy fetish then why not ask for a game that makes it clear in some way, on the cover or otherwise, that it's meant for people with your fetish? What we have is a horribly sexist game that illustrates a dangerous way of looking at women, and rape fantasy aside ACTUAL F***KING RAPE happens all the freaking time around here, I shouldn't have to live in fear just so you can get off.

What perspective will having a daughter give to someone who has a mother on this issue?

Geeze I don't know, maybe you wouldn't want your daughter going to school with a bunch of guys who play this sort of thing for pornographic value? Maybe you'd be concerned, as a father, for the safety of your daughter in a world where women are already raped left and right, that if this sort of thing were acceptable it would make the rape of your daughter more likely.

TexaNigerian:
The premise here is flawed from a historical perspective. Look back at, say, Australian history and you'll see rape used to purge the Aboriginal 'stain' from the land. Rape is also constantly deployed as a weapon of war. a 'Hero' is merely the champion of a people or one who fights to further their interests. There is nothing in most definitions of 'Hero' to suggest that a 'Hero' has to be 'good' from another culture's point of view.
As for the whole 'everything in a game ultimately relates to heroism' idea, there is an increasing number of games in which the player can do all manner of ghastly things for no particular reason, not to save the day. Killing a drunk mother of a runaway by slicing her throat as she sleeps then eating her corpse does not further the cause of restoring the Capital Wasteland (In Fall Out 3)or sacrificing the mother of one's many children to the Shadows (In Fable 2) doesn't beat Lucien. For that matter, nothing the protagonists of Saint's Row 2 do is heroic except on accident.
In terms of sheer awfulness, does Rape>Casual Cannibalism/Ballistic Castration of passers-by/nuking a city full of men,women and children off of the map?

I'll say this much.

In general I agree that rape should not be a taboo subject in video games or other media for that matter. Heck, as it is now it's a pretty mainstream interest for both genders, as erotic fantasies about being "taken" by an attractive member of your sexual orientation are extremely normal. Such is the subject of a lot of those women's romance novels and such.

Then you've got concepts like "Gor" which are popular enough to have spawned their own real-life bondage subculture.

Rape is also a good took for shock value, and is used in horror novels and such for this reason. The idea being to turn someone on but make them feel guilty/dirty for it.

All of these things could be explored in games a lot more than they currently are. Anyone who confuses such fantasy with reality has issues beyond gaming.

Besides, when you look at all the "Paranormal Romance" novels, all the books women read with pictures of Fabio (or someone of his ilk) getting ready to ravish the heroine on the cover, or just regular old published smut, you'll find that none of this stuff is exactly unusual, and it's silly to shy away from putting such mature content in a mature rated game because it's not politically correct.

-

As far as the idea of rape as a weapon of war, well historically speaking you make some valid points, but I'm not sure if that's something you can specifically emulate in a game. After all you want the protaganist to be someone who can at least be empathized with by the people playing the game, not just some "other" hypothetical culture.

I could for example see making a game where you take on the role of a fantasy hero like Tarl Cabot or Jason Marshall, or a Vampire/Vampiress bondage master/mistress and engage in relationships based on those types of fantasy which start with force. Heck, I can even see a Conanesque "I'm a barbarian, I keep conquered women as my sex slaves" and building a good old fashioned harem as part of a game. But raping a perople out of existance doesn't quite seem like something most players would be able to get into.

If your going to do a game about erotic-horror you should just plain out make things wrong. Sort of like how I mentioned before if I had the budget I'd like to create a sandbox crime game based around the idea of the protaganist being a psycho-killer/seriel rapist/seriel torturer with the RPG-type development of powers based on the supernatural bad guys of
horror movies. Part of the game being to set it up as a sort of reverse crime procedural
with the character having to cover their tracks from committing crimes, and using systems like the old VICAPS program I read about in my old Criminal Justice classes to plot out the response of the police/FBI/whatever in response to the crimes.

In the case of my idea there would of course be an overall plot, and the character would in absolute terms be something of an anti-hero "driven to enjoy these horrible things".

I thought of the idea over a period of time watching various psycho-killer movies and such and talking to other sicko horror movie fans about "ahh well, if that was me I would have done this to the victim, and I never would have been caught because instead I would have planned to do this, this, and this". It would be interesting to create a game that would let arm-chair horror movie bad guys test their hypothetical skillz. Could YOU whack more people than "Dexter" without getting caught? A lot more entertaining than (yawn) selling drugs and pimping hos yet again. As someone interested in Criminal Justice (despite how things turned out for me) it fascinates me as a potential exercise, along with my general love of "sick" movies.

The point of that rant is simply that I think rape CAN be introduced into games, and probably should be. I guess we agree there. But there is no need for warped justifications. I mean if your doing "erotic" rape, simply portray it as what it is, the genere defines itself. You don't see a 50 page self-justifying preamble by Fabio and the author whose book he appeared on the cover of disclaiming the content of the story in which he abducts women as a fictional pirate, "ravishes" them and then turns them into his wenches. If you want to portray rape as being evil and shocking, likewise don't try and justify it. If your going the shock horror type root, don't bother to say that it's okay by some cultural standard, the perverted Nazi Snuff-Doktor is doing all that stuff because he's sick and it gets him off. It's EEEEEVIL that is the point, nobody makes any bones about it.

In general neither Tarl Cabot or your typical horror psycho feel much of a need to justify themselves. :P

>>>----Therumancer--->

Valentine82:

Geoffrey42:

Valentine82:
I highly doubt that this argument would be taking place were the game a pedophilia simulator.

You really don't see how it might be a bad idea to titillate the fantasies and lusts of potential pedophiles? You really don't?

Both of those statements come down to "You're pulling my leg, right?" And no, I'm not pulling your leg. There might be fewer people on my side IF this were a pedophilia simulator, but I would still be having this argument. And yes, I REALLY don't how it IS a bad idea to do so, but I will acknowledge that there is a MAYBE in there. I am unwilling to condone censorship on the basis of MAYBEs and MIGHTs.

Personally I find your anything goes mentality on the issue disturbing, I have to worry about being raped because rape is something that happens where I live, and I don't want media fanning the flames of rape lust when the men around me already eye me life a F***CKing steak.

It's a bad idea to allow this crap. It encourages a way of looking at women that puts women in danger. To me RapeLay is no better than the memes that led to the holocaust. If you were a woman or had children your perspective might be quite different on this issue, because where you are now you're not put at risk by this sort of crap.

Its a bad idea to allow censorship. It encourages a way of looking at anything as potentially dangerous or offensive to the point that our culture is stripped bare of all merit. It encourages people to lay blame on videogames, t.v. and other forms of media like it wasn't their fault. By blaming the media you are absolving the perpetrators.

I have a female friend with a kid who finds the censorship way more offensive than the game. She was a rape victim and still she finds the censorship more offensive. She thinks those that want to censor this crap should find something better to do with their lives. Does she have a right to her opinion? I think so. What about my friend with 2 daughters who still finds the censorship more offensive? If the people around you were brought up right, no media would sway them to rape.

Anyone else reminded of when William Gaines (founder of Mad) had his True Crime comics and they were censored because they might instigate foul play? They were called obscene and thought to be a cause of crime - yet years later we look back at that censorship with shame. Those ranting about this game remind me of the freaked out housewives who didn't have a clue what was really going on in their kids lives and just wanted to blame a comic. Society is the one to pay for the stupid crap these censor-happy fools pull.

If you or anyone you know are in an area where you have to worry about rape regularly you need to leave or fight it. A videogame is not causing you to be in danger, the rapists are. Don't excuse their actions by blaming a game.

Valentine82:

If you have a Rape Fantasy fetish then why not ask for a game that makes it clear in some way, on the cover or otherwise, that it's meant for people with your fetish?

Because that's compelled speech. Before losing a piece of the First Amendment, I'd rather try and

(1) get voluntary compliance:
(2) send the message that rape is NOT about how much the girl resists or how much she doesn't want it: I'd much rather send the message that No Means No, that rape is all about Sex without Consent, not some image of suffering. All rape causes suffering, even if you can't see it on the woman's face.

What we have is a horribly sexist game that illustrates a dangerous way of looking at women, and rape fantasy aside ACTUAL F***KING RAPE happens all the freaking time around here, I shouldn't have to live in fear just so you can get off.

Yeah, and I agree with you: but what does Rape Fantasy have to do with Rape? Most REAL rapists couldn't care less about a game like this. This is actually the dangerous way of looking at women we're sending: that only 'perverts' rape. No. Plenty of 'nice guys' rape too.

What perspective will having a daughter give to someone who has a mother on this issue?

Geeze I don't know, maybe you wouldn't want your daughter going to school with a bunch of guys who play this sort of thing for pornographic value?

Honestly? No. Why? Because here's the thing about the rapists women meet in places like school as opposed to the ones who jump out of the bushes at them or abduct them using vans with sliding panel side doors or who date them and treat them really great until they've got me and the rest of the family convinced they're a great guy before turning abusive and becoming marital rapists:

They aren't crazy perverts with rape games on their computer! Their porn probably doesn't look any different than that of every other guy out there. I'm not going to worry about some black swan event of her meeting up with some guy acting out some criminal sexual deviancy (that dude is probably still like, torturing cats or something at this stage of their disease) when her REAL threat is some 'regular' guy.

Shit, high school? You know what I'd be worried about for my teenage daughter? This:

Yes, we learned a lot about rape.

What we were not prepared for was everything else. Rape was something we could identify, an act with a strict definition and two distinct scenarios. Not rape was something else entirely.

Not rape was all those other little things that we experienced everyday and struggled to learn how to deal with those situations. In those days, my ears were filled with secrets that were not my own, the confessions of not rapes experienced by the girls I knew then and the women I know now.

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic/

Maybe you'd be concerned, as a father, for the safety of your daughter in a world where women are already raped left and right, that if this sort of thing were acceptable it would make the rape of your daughter more likely.

How does that differ from my concern as a son for the safety of my mother?

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