Zero Punctuation: Final Fantasy XIII

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brazuca:
If you like Final Fantasy you are around 15 years old or a pedo. No men over twenty something, non virgin can like that crap!

I'm sorry but i make this whole post false

I like Dragon Quest.

I like soup!! i had to do that lol

Wow. 1000+ comments. Who knew that FF fanboys are even whinier than Nintendo SSBB fans?

PhiMed:
Wow. 1000+ comments. Who knew that FF fanboys are even whinier than Nintendo SSBB fans?

There is no such thing as a good fanboy

I was at a drink-up last week where we watched one of our friends try to defeate this difficult boss in FFXIII. He decided to play as Snow after failing with Lightning to "tank the boss to death". It was hilarious to see him scream at the screen for his team mates to "START ******* ATTACKING" or "STOP ******* HEALING AND START RESSURECTING!".

I can see the new battle system from an outsider's point of view interesting and potentially complex and enjoyable. But it really does iscolate the player from the input and make you feel with alot of lack of control. I suppose it turns each battle into a simulation instead of turn-based combat.

Don't agree with the review.

But I still lol'd.

You guys wanna know what that "20 hours" argument just reminded me of?

Abriael:

Arcane Azmadi:

And once again another retard completely misses the point.

And once again, another smartie feels the need to insult someone that happens to share a different opinion :D
Because youn know, to think differently, you MUST be a "retard" :D

The hypocrisy of your claim is staggering, as you obviously didn't watch Yahtzee's review any further once he said he'd only played 5 hours. Otherwise you'd have seen the bit where he blatantly pointed out that the fact that a game gets better later is NOT A GOOD THING if the opening makes you want to chew off your own face to get away from it.

Personally I watched it all. The game doesn't get better later. It gets different.
Plenty people loved the first part and how streamlined it is, and had trouble with how challenging the second part can be.
Final Fantasy XIII is two games in one (both quality and quantity-wise), which part you like more is a matter of taste.

It's funny though, how yathzee says that it gets "better" purely out of hearsay.

Um, no. The review is not wrong and Yahtzee didn't make anything up, unless you're going to start splitting hairs on his exact wording. You can disagree with him, but he's not "wrong". And even if he did misrepresent or exaggerate a few details, this doesn't automatically invalidate his overall opinion.

Aside from the blatant exaggeration, that's yathze's trademark, there are plenty details that are plain wrong, even during the first five hours of the game.

Aside from the blatant misrepresentation of Hope in order to make him look more stereotyped and incoherent (he's a weakling, but he fights like a champ! yada yada), since hope is the first character to start showing progression during the game, and enters in the "fighting" mindset well before the end of the 5 hours that yathze played.

The funny part is the representation of the combat. As soon as one gets accustomed to it (operation that for me took about 15 minute, wohoo big deal), it gets to be a very fast and absolutely not clunky experience. All menus are accessible, and there are shortcuts you can use. The options are also very varied, making it a fast paced but tactical experience as a whole.
Maybe if yathze didn't sit on his couch with the pre-made mindset "i MUST destroy this game, no matter what", he would have noticed?

You are aware that Yahtzee has a JOB to do and doesn't always get to choose the games he reviews. More to the point, if he DIDN'T review FFXIII then a thousand whiny fans would start screaming for him to do so- either people who WANT to see him rip it apart for the entertainment value, or idiotically optimistic FF fanboys who somehow believe he would praise it and then proceed to bash him when he doesn't. It happened with Smash Bros Brawl, after all- people had to nag him into reviewing it, then flamed him for not loving it. Morons.

And again, sharing a different opinion means being morons, yep, of course.
I seriously doubt many would have complained if he didn't review Final Fantasy XIII, expecially knowing him and his (alleged) tastes. Doubt we'll ever know what his real tastes are, of course.

And I think you have a mighty damn gall to openly accuse Yahtzee of making up lies about a game just to be funny. That's practically malicious slander.

Aside from the fact that "slander" is oral. the word you're looking for may be "libel".
I didn't know that Yatzhee was some sort of god immune from any sort of criticism or responsibility for what he says, so that calling him on it equals to some form of unforgivable sin.
Shall we re-enact the lex iulia maiestatis?

OK, now you've ventured into the realm of "just plain wrong". Yahtzee was bored playing the first 15 hours.

5 hours. He didn't even get to 15. If he's bored by the first 5 hours of Final Fantasy XIII, I wonder what happens with the first 5 hours of God of War 3 (that happen to be almost the ONLY 5 hours, by the way), that happen to be a lot of fighting in a corridor. Which is exactly what Final Fantasy XIII is. The only difference is that FF has an interesting story during those 5 hours, and interesting characters to get to know.

Oh and God FORBID the game not telling you every single detail of the story immediately! lol.

And frankly, almost all critics, game journalists and the vast majority of fans are in agreement with Yahtzee- the opening of FFXIII is outright lousy

You must not read much. Edge and Jim Sterling don't make up for the whole press (thank goodness), and for pretty damn sure not for the whole gaming danbase.

the only difference is whether they're prepared to accept "it gets better later" as an excuse. Comparing a Final Fantasy game to God of War is just plain stupid- if God of War was given an open world it would completely derail the non-stop explosive action experience, but FFXIII is a god-damned RPG, from the Final Fantasy series no less! And if the first 15 hours of FFXIII are boring, I don't see how you can say this makes it better than GoW III just because FFXIII goes on longer after it gets better.

So basically you're saying that the "right" mindset to approach Final Fantasy XIII is coming in with a pre-made bias (because RPGs on rails "from the Final Fantasy series no less!" never existed, right?), that since it's an "RPG" it MUST be open world (derailing the non-stop explosive action experience), while God of War 3 MUST be on rails, because otherwise it'd derail the non-stop explosive action experience.
Yep. And thinking differently is "just plain stupid".

I rest my case.

I see people talking about the "fanboy rage" in this thread from gamers that love Final Fantasy XIII, but honestly the biggest "fanboy rage" i see here is from people that love yatzhee and are angry as hell that someone might think to criticize his way to pick games apart. Angry enough to blatantly insult whoever might happen to differ.

Mind you, Yatzhee's way is obviously a sound business model, and most of the times he makes decent points, but this time around the bias seems to have outweighted the facts too much, and it shows.

But don't fret. Yatzhee will survive and thrive even if I happen to differ with his views and ways.

Fine wording good sir!

Really, the whole point here is not "Fanboy Final Fantasy Fans". It's really not. Most people here are simply stating that the review wasn't really properly done.

It's not unlike a book, y'know. If you are used to reading Spy novels that are around 100-150 pages long, and the rare occasional 200-250 page book, you can set yourself with your own personal rule of "i read a lot of books, so it the first 2 chapters can't hold me i won't go on" and that's fine. But then, you get a Murder-Mistery story that is clearly over 400 Pages long, and it would be trully silly to think the same rule would apply.

And if you Firmly believe that your rule MUST Apply even so, then you have no business even getting into those sorts of books, because it will be more likely that you'll be hit by lightning (pun intended?) than you actually coming to like a 400 page murder-mystery book. That doesn't mean that old big books are shit or that all murder-mysteries are crap.

That only means that you are not into that type of narrative. And now, letting aside ZP and focusing on it's fanbase here, Not liking that type of narrative is one thing... going from that to imposing a "truth" that everyone who DOES like it is a "moron" or "retard"... that right there is what Fanboyism is all about.

And Super Mario Bros is fun about 10 seconds in.

Bit of a difference there.

I completely agree about the menu-bar attack style. For ****s sake, I want to smash their face in, not have the stupid thing do it for me! Thats no fun at all!

anjichan:
I completely agree about the menu-bar attack style. For ****s sake, I want to smash their face in, not have the stupid thing do it for me! Thats no fun at all!

Then you click the attack button. That is simply how these games work, and I hardly see how its any different from pressing a button for it to be done.

Game play being good or bad is a very trivial thing, some people like the turn based battles some people like to dive in into real time combat. It's like comparing Wrestling with a Chess match. They are both the equivalent of a conflict but the latter features a fictitious situation in which you actually think before throwing a punch (sometimes).
Ever since FF11 (online) SE has been trying to implement the standard MMO setting; tank+ heals+ dps, into the single player game. Failing massively to do so in FF12, they now introduce the ''Paradigm shift''(or however its spelled) which combined with Auto-attack makes it feel more like an RTS, not exactly reinventing the wheel but adding corners for it to look pretty! still, it is not working as its supposed to for some reason...

Games like this and some from other genres require you to think not just to smash the enemies face in which most seem to prefer the latter. Sad really what happen to using your brains instead of wasting them

Lol Yahtzee is just fantastic, it's fanscinating how spot on he is, i recognized the loud footsteps right after the first minute of gameplay and it annoyed me unconciously! I like the character's look and cinematics, i gonna download them somewhere and watch them like a movie, but the gameplay itself is un-bear-a-bly boooring and teeeedious and the monsters must've been designed by an army of people on a shroom trip, serously! This game is something for people who like those j-rpgs, i would watch it as movie, but the game itself sucks balls imo, but that's a matter of taste.

Bynine:
And Super Mario Bros is fun about 10 seconds in.

Bit of a difference there.

Yeah, that's not a ridiculous over-simplification at all... i mean, at all!

Abriael:

Tetranitrophenol:
And don't give me that JRPG fanboy response; "the first 20 hours ARE fun and enjoyable" because you are only fooling yourself. With so many corridors they just had to hand Lightning a Go-Kart and we will be playing Mario Kart: Drama Edition.

Welcome to the world of gaming today. You must dislike a whole lot of games out there, given that corridors and on rails gameplay has become almost the norm and for sure not the exception :D

At the very least Final Fantasy XIII offers something else on top of it. Plenty critically acclaimed games do NOT offer anything else after the customary ten hours of sticking to a single rail.

Indecipherable:
This thread is comedy gold, almost as good as Yahtzee's review. Watching the rage is soothing to the soul.

rage? please. I'm actually very much amused. It's always funny to see gamers criticize elements that they acclaim in other kind of games. Biases are always an amusing thing on the internets.

Stranger 517:

Also, you have to admit, FFXIII is a bit of a weak spot in the series. The story's not bad, but Vannile, Hope and Snow are three of the most annoying characters in any Final Fantasy.

All three have a very steep character progression. How I wish I could see that in more western games, where characters like Kratos start dull and remain dull til the end...

And the battle system takes almost all control from the player, giving it to an AI is literally retarded. The paradigm system shift makes me laugh every time I die because Lightening was too busy spinning to realize that a gigantic bird was eating her face, and no one can comprehend the concept that you shouldn't stand next to a tank getting nuked.

The paradigm shift system falls under the "easy to learn, hard to master" definition. Once you master it, you have plenty control. Mind you, if you're not shifting paradygm at least every two attacks, normally you're doing something wrong.

Oh, just FYI, with the right timing the paradigm shift animation is instant, and it even fully recharges your ATB bar.
Easy to learn. Hard to master.

If someone hasn't said it yet, kutos to you for defending FFXIII, where so many others are quick to judge it harshly.

I've played through it twice now. The first time, even with the guide, was a pain because I didn't take the time to 'master' the paradigm shift system. My second playthrough was a breeze, I could not believe how much time I shaved off!

I admit, I wasn't keen on elements of the story, but then, it is rare for anything to satisfy 100%. My biggest gripe is with the role of Lightning; in the end she was of no consequence to the story, ie, she was not important enough to save the world. The marketing presented her as a solid female lead for a numbers installment, not just a member of a ensemble cast. Even Tina got a better deal than her! If Lightning were a male, he would have had a stronger backstory, a love interest and far more involvement in the finale.

Fortunately, SE gave me reason ingame not to dwell, with Vanille and Fang to keep me occupied. I am in the tiny, secluded 'but I liked Vanille...' camp. Where Lightning gave me the cold shoulder, that kooky Vanille opened her arms and gave me a warm smile. And I liked Hope too. His story was one of the most involved, and the progression was compelling. I wish I could say the same for Snow. He really bothered me to the bitter end.

Wow look at all the angry responses in this thread! I can't believe people can't seem to understand that thinking the game is terrible is no more wrong than thinking it's great. Personally I can't understand why people would want someone who clearly hated the first 5 hours of the game to keep on playing till it became more satisfying (if it ever did). 5 hours is a pretty fair chance to anything, and hell I wouldn't have even given it that. Like many have said before games are a fun hobby to waste time with. If a game is unbearable for 5 hours then that doesn't count as a game to me anymore. I don't care how long the game is 5 hours of boredom is terrible and I was bored long after 5 hours.

Plus I find it ridiculous that people are criticizing others for hating the fact they couldn't understand what was going on or why at around 10 hours or slightly more. That's less of a problem of people wanted all the story handed to them and more of a problem with the games story telling entirely. Very early on you should at least have an idea of who your characters are and what their goals are without having to read anything. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be much purpose to anything you do and less reason to care. The story can have whatever twists and turns to keep me enthralled afterward but at least give me a pretty decent beginning that doesn't make me feel like a know nothing idiot.

As for the corridors thing yeah all games are linear in a way but in today's time I expect my rpgs to give me a little more freedom on exploration than XIII does. Being able to branch off and explore towns and forests and other areas and talk to people is what I enjoy about rpgs. Taking that away makes it feel like a boring grind.

As for the combat I didn't care for it but others seem to like it so I wouldn't say it's bad just not my kind of system. Hell most people hated the system from XII but I liked it since I never put anyone except characters I didn't give a shit about on gambits anyway. Pretty much kept me in the action from directly controlling most people during all the boss and lesser monster fights, so I never felt like the "game is playing itself".

The part of the story I got sucked to me but I didn't stick through the whole game so I didn't know everything, but after about 13 hours I really didn't care to know anymore. Just about all the character were irritating to me for different reasons and i feel like this could have been avoided as well since I've played numerous rpgs where I didn't hate anyone on my team. Overall I'd just say XIII is not game for me since I find it crappy but then I find most Final Fantasies get this opinion from me. Just this one more than any other.

Sir John The Net Knight:

Primus1985:
27 pages already? no need to go through it I can summerize 90%: "Yahtzee doesnt like JRPG's so he's opinon doesnt matter, Squareenix can do no wrong, im a fanboy wah wah wah."

Actually I cant belive Yahtzee lasted 5 hours, thats how I know he's completly unbiased. I only lasted 3.

FF13 worst FF of all time, i can name any other entry and it would be better.

Actually, you've got it backwards. 90% of these comments are slobbering love for Yahtzee and people hating on a game just because Yahtzee hates it. This is pretty much par for the course for any forum thread regarding Yahtzee. But this one has reached critical mass due to the popularity of the game, the size of the fanbase and the incredibly half-assed review that makes me wonder if he even played for 5 minutes, much less 5 hours. As there wasn't a single aspect of his review that couldn't be derived from the instruction manual. Oh, and he also took several opportunities to plug his lame watering hole.

But did my eyes deceive me? Or did you actually call Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw unbiased? I mean, you can't possibly mean that seriously. Yahtzee is about as unbiased, as Rosie O' Donnell is human. In all seriousness, making a completely biased review without even playing the game and then defending your weak attempt at criticism by calling your detractors "fanboys", is hardly what one would call eloquent retort. But then again, this is the internet and eloquence has never actually taken up residence in this god-forsaken place.

You know I cant belive you got the badge for not incurring moderator wrath when you blantly insult two good people. You are being very critical of someone who is paid to be, drumroll please, a frekin critic. I can see his point very clearly having played the game. Have you yourself played FF13? If not, I dont see how you can slander his review. If your have and you liked it...what the hell is wrong with you.

FF13 is bland, boring and mind-numbingly painful. If you just wanted me to sit and watch pretty graphics hell make it a anime or something damn(an anime I wouldnt watch but still). "Oh 20-30 hours in it opens up" and "The last three chapters are bigger than the rest of the game" are not reasons to play a game.

GTA4's tutorial took around ten hours, and I thought THAT was too long, it was lucky it didnt handicap me too bad I almost gave up. So you can imagine 20 hours, with a game not even on par with GTA4, hell frekin no. And my last point Squarenix hasnt learned a damn thing in a decade. Its like they recycle the same crap, but fanboys just eat it up, and whenever they tried to change the fanbois bitched so they sat with their thumbs up their butts while RPG's like Mass effect, Fallout, Dragon Age, and other open world titles have changed the way we look at games and what we want when we play.

But Square will just keep shilling the same crap until the fanboi's stop buying games and they listen to more hardcore players.

This is a completely biased review, no matter what you or anyone else says. The game is better later on. The story is narrated most of the way. The only things not mentioned in the narration of the story aren't really important.

you seriously cared enough to write that long winded asshole rant Arcane Azmadi? haha, who's the retard :P

hey those programmers work hard im sure they just overlooked a few grammer errors
what are we the grammer police

I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

ragnawind:
I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

The impatient people are better off playing fps or some other genres rpg and mainly jrpgs take time to really get going the first half or so seem to be about showing all the people and parties involved. Some like to give you more people or parties later on like the true enemies or the last few party members. some jrpgs just like to jump around like someone on drugs like what ff13 did the people who have played it know what I'm talking about

tony2077:
some jrpgs just like to jump around like someone on drugs like what ff13 did the people who have played it know what I'm talking about

Vanille? freaking junkie right there!

Tetranitrophenol:

tony2077:
some jrpgs just like to jump around like someone on drugs like what ff13 did the people who have played it know what I'm talking about

Vanille? freaking junkie right there!

not really what i was talking about i mean the jumping from one party to another one and to me she's not that bad.

I actually played FFXIII for a full 15 minutes.

The second it gave me free reign over everything, I looked into the journal, (or whatever the game called it) saw that it gave me the entire story in TEXT, and turned the game off.

I've played almost every Final Fantasy game. (With the exception of IV & VI)

None of the Final Fantasy games in the past have spoon fed you the story instead of showing you at the beginning.

I'm extremely disappointed.

Primus1985:

You know I cant belive you got the badge for not incurring moderator wrath when you blantly insult two good people. You are being very critical of someone who is paid to be, drumroll please, a frekin critic. I can see his point very clearly having played the game. Have you yourself played FF13? If not, I dont see how you can slander his review. If your have and you liked it...what the hell is wrong with you.

FF13 is bland, boring and mind-numbingly painful. If you just wanted me to sit and watch pretty graphics hell make it a anime or something damn(an anime I wouldnt watch but still). "Oh 20-30 hours in it opens up" and "The last three chapters are bigger than the rest of the game" are not reasons to play a game.

GTA4's tutorial took around ten hours, and I thought THAT was too long, it was lucky it didnt handicap me too bad I almost gave up. So you can imagine 20 hours, with a game not even on par with GTA4, hell frekin no. And my last point Squarenix hasnt learned a damn thing in a decade. Its like they recycle the same crap, but fanboys just eat it up, and whenever they tried to change the fanbois bitched so they sat with their thumbs up their butts while RPG's like Mass effect, Fallout, Dragon Age, and other open world titles have changed the way we look at games and what we want when we play.

But Square will just keep shilling the same crap until the fanboi's stop buying games and they listen to more hardcore players.

Guess what, I played Fallout 3 and I loved it, I played Dragon Age and I loved it and I played Mass Effect and...it's ok, not really as good as I expected, but still good. You are right about me being a big fan of Final Fantasy, and I feel there's no reason to deny that. Still, I'm quite willing to call out Square when they do bad. (FFX-2, anyone?)

That having been said, you are indeed labeling me a "fanboy" for finding fault with Yahtzee's review. Which is exactly what I mentioned in the post you replied to. And I really don't care if you, Yahtzee or anyone else dislikes a game that I enjoy. But, as I've stated, playing 5% of a game that he crafted an opinion about 3 years before it was released, and then publicly decrying it for the sole purpose of angering fans of the series, while blatantly espousing that his opinion is divine providence doesn't qualify as a review. It doesn't qualify as criticism, either. What it is, is trolling. Trolling on an incredibly large scale.

Also, the fact that you disagree with my opinion does not make it trolling. And that is what I have and always will do here, state my opinion. Your distaste for my opinion does not qualify it for "moderator wrath".

Vancifer:
I actually played FFXIII for a full 15 minutes.

The second it gave me free reign over everything, I looked into the journal, (or whatever the game called it) saw that it gave me the entire story in TEXT, and turned the game off.

I've played almost every Final Fantasy game. (With the exception of IV & VI)

None of the Final Fantasy games in the past have spoon fed you the story instead of showing you at the beginning.

I'm extremely disappointed.

The parts listed in the datalog about the party are just extraneous unnecessary bits of information. They just add it as a side extra. The real story is all covered within the cut-scenes and movies within the actual game. Many games with a database that gives you a synopsis, etc. of the story only had unnecessary bits of information if anything new at all is listed. In the datalog, I have only noticed that it summarizes the story as it unfolds. Any new information is revealed later during actual story events in the game. The extra information in the datalog is for those who want to know what will happen later on in the course of the story before it happens. Eventually, all extra information is revealed in story-related events, at a point where it fits in with the rest of the story.It isn't really a bad thing.

ragnawind:
I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

thublihnk:

ragnawind:
I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

That is a biased comment, right there. What I just said is cold-hard-fact, not just opinion. No matter What, there is always good and always bad about something. There is no denying it. In the end, it is all personal opinion. You people are just bashing the game, because you don't understand how the system works. No matter what you watch, play, etc., it ALWAYS starts slow. There is no way around it without starting in the middle, which isn't really a good place to start something.

Meaning of the word bias: Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective. In other words, bias is generally seen as a 'one-sided' perspective. The term biased refers to a person or group who is judged to exhibit bias. It is used to describe an attitude, judgment, or behavior that is influenced by a prejudice. Bias can be unconscious or conscious in awareness. Having a bias is part of a normal development. Labeling someone as biased in some regard implies they need a greater or more flexible perspective in that area, or that they need to consider more deeply the context.

ragnawind:

thublihnk:

ragnawind:
I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

That is a biased comment, right there. What I just said is cold-hard-fact, not just opinion. No matter What, there is always good and always bad about something. There is no denying it. In the end, it is all personal opinion. You people are just bashing the game, because you don't understand how the system works. No matter what you watch, play, etc., it ALWAYS starts slow. There is no way around it without starting in the middle, which isn't really a good place to start something.

Meaning of the word bias: Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective. In other words, bias is generally seen as a 'one-sided' perspective. The term biased refers to a person or group who is judged to exhibit bias. It is used to describe an attitude, judgment, or behavior that is influenced by a prejudice. Bias can be unconscious or conscious in awareness. Having a bias is part of a normal development. Labeling someone as biased in some regard implies they need a greater or more flexible perspective in that area, or that they need to consider more deeply the context.

I agree with everything you said. Apparently most gamers of this generation can't stand slow build ups.
The Longest Journey had a very slow beginning but it made what happened to the characters as the plot progressed extremely impactful. How come so many gamers tend to have simplistic arguments?

ragnawind:

thublihnk:

ragnawind:
I forgot to mention in my previous post these facts:
You can't make a good review without pointing out the good and the bad in something. If you only talk about the bad points, you are obviously biased, no matter what anyone says. Same for if you only talk about the good things. In order to make a good review, you MUST discuss the good and bad points EQUALLY. Without this, the entire review is biased. You must also complete the entire game, if you are going to review it. Without playing through it in its entirety, you will never be able to give it a fair review.

More often than not, whether it be a game, movie, show, etc., it will usually always start dull and boring, as well as in different people's opinions, bad. It is all opinion-based. The story is then gradually built up, though for some people they think it builds up too slow. This is most often the case for people who are impatient and would like to finish the story ASAP. The best way to build up a story and its characters, is to have a slow, gradual buildup.

This turned out longer than expected, but it is the truth, that a lot of you are probably too stubborn to learn from.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Sometimes there's not good points to be gleaned from a piece of art. There are some things that are so truly terrible that there are no good things to say about it, and you can't just shoehorn in some shit about how the soundtrack was good-or-whatever to make it unbiased. That's just stupid.

And furthermore, unless there was some cataclysmic event 6 hours into the game that completely turned it on its head and made for an entirely different experience then yeah he's fair in turning the game off and reviewing--as he said--the first 5 hours. He didn't judge the last however many hours, he just judged the first 5, and the back end probably aren't terribly better.

Oh, and no a story doesn't need to start slow and boring, nor should it. Ever. /EVER/. Do you get me? It's called drawing the reader/viewer/player into the story. You start out establishing your main character, then you introduce the conflict. If the main character is boring, then yes, the beginning is going to be boring. And so is the rest of the story.

That is a biased comment, right there. What I just said is cold-hard-fact, not just opinion. No matter What, there is always good and always bad about something. There is no denying it. In the end, it is all personal opinion. You people are just bashing the game, because you don't understand how the system works. No matter what you watch, play, etc., it ALWAYS starts slow. There is no way around it without starting in the middle, which isn't really a good place to start something.

Meaning of the word bias: Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective. In other words, bias is generally seen as a 'one-sided' perspective. The term biased refers to a person or group who is judged to exhibit bias. It is used to describe an attitude, judgment, or behavior that is influenced by a prejudice. Bias can be unconscious or conscious in awareness. Having a bias is part of a normal development. Labeling someone as biased in some regard implies they need a greater or more flexible perspective in that area, or that they need to consider more deeply the context.

Oh no no no, you misunderstood what I said. Key word: BORING. FF games as of late start out BORING. Stories can start slow and still be interesting, they can't start out boring though. If a storyteller establishes the character in an interesting but calm, slow way I'm down. I'm in for the rest of the game. But if they introduce a shallow and uninteresting character in an uninteresting way, I'm probably going to give up on the game a lot sooner than 5 hours.
By your standards, anyone who just flat doesn't like a particular game for no reason other than its quality is bias-- the only people who aren't bias are the ones who have nice things to say about it. Makes perfect sense.
And there are not always good and bad things about everything, nor is there a need to point out the good and bad things in everything. See, what you're thinking of is, say, a summary. Someone sitting down and stating the features of the game. What Yahtzee is doing, and all he's ever claimed to do, is have an opinion and argue for it. He makes points that strengthen his argument for the quality of a game, be it good or bad.
It's the basis of making an argument. A critical opinion. Again, just stating 'oh, I guess the soundtrack was pretty good' doesn't magically make someones opinions more valid, nor does its omission make said opinion any less valid.

EDIT: If you want to find a critic without bias, I suggest you look beyond the limitations of human writing ability-- bias is a human condition, not just something you can magic away by thinking real hard. You're biased, I'm biased, we're all biased. Bitching about it is like bitching about the sun.

what, no comment on how the characters names sound like spin-offs of captain planet? Snow, Lightning, Hope, by your powers combined, i am Lieutenant World!

Sir John The Net Knight:

Primus1985:
*snip*

Guess what, I played Fallout 3 and I loved it, I played Dragon Age and I loved it and I played Mass Effect and...it's ok, not really as good as I expected, but still good. You are right about me being a big fan of Final Fantasy, and I feel there's no reason to deny that. Still, I'm quite willing to call out Square when they do bad. (FFX-2, anyone?)

That having been said, you are indeed labeling me a "fanboy" for finding fault with Yahtzee's review. Which is exactly what I mentioned in the post you replied to. And I really don't care if you, Yahtzee or anyone else dislikes a game that I enjoy. But, as I've stated, playing 5% of a game that he crafted an opinion about 3 years before it was released, and then publicly decrying it for the sole purpose of angering fans of the series, while blatantly espousing that his opinion is divine providence doesn't qualify as a review. It doesn't qualify as criticism, either. What it is, is trolling. Trolling on an incredibly large scale.

Also, the fact that you disagree with my opinion does not make it trolling. And that is what I have and always will do here, state my opinion. Your distaste for my opinion does not qualify it for "moderator wrath".

Actually I was eagerly anticipating FF13 thinking they evolved the series, Wrong. Yahtzee, who has probably played more games than either of us, noticed this right on. When you play games for a living and are given a game that you've played before and know what's going to happen their's really no point. Which is kinda what he's saying.

One more thing. I didnt have a problem with your opinion, everyone has that right, I took offense to you saying Yahtzee is as biased as Rosie O'Donnel is human: A, She is human so your insult made no sense. B, their are other ways to get your point across than insulting others.

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