Go Back To WoW

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PaulH:

Zemalac:

Shamus Young:

Do skiers and snow boarders hate each other with the same fervor as Xbox and PS3 fans?

Yes. Possibly more so.

Goddamn skiers, taking up the entire frickin' slope. If you're going to go back and forth like that, at least let people pass you instead of cutting in front of them...RANT

Kinda funny remark given that skiers are FASTER because of the reduced friction to the snow because of the (usually) reduced surface area of the skis in comparison to snowboards.

They may be faster. In fact, they are faster. This is truth.

However, most skiers (or at least, most that I have seen) tend to go back and forth on the slope, thus blocking the entire trail to someone who is being careful not to run into people while passing because you never know when the skier is going to turn back the other way and run straight into you and then it's your own goddamn fault because they were lower on the slope than you and it's your responsibility to watch out for that...

Anyway. I understand that people go back and forth in order to reduce their speed to something manageable: it still annoys me when I want to just bomb down the slope without having to slow down and wait for the right moment to pass someone. Pet peeve of mine, as it were.

While I dislike the Fanboys with their quick attack on any critism and the use of the phrase "Go back to Wow" the conclusion that this is a symptom of a game in trouble is completely unsupported (and unwarranted) (not to mention the lack of statistical validity in those numbers).

While mindlesspuppet said it better:

mindlesspuppet:

...
"Go back to WoW" is a statement used by very frustrated and fed up communities.
...

I would like to add,

People use the phrase because uninformed people come into the game and try to change what makes a game unique and interesting and make it more like another game. If you want the other game, play it. I play DDO which has unique aspects that make it interesting to play. When people come to the forums and ask for those unique game features to be replaced with a feature that matches WoW, "Go back to WoW" is not an unwarranted response. Especially when the requester has displayed a complete ignorance of the game they are asking to be changed.

While many of those comments came while the game was struggling, I think the prevalence of those comments are far more an indicator of how different a game is from WoW than how much it is struggling. LotRO rates lower on the frequency because it is more like WoW than DDO.

ffs-dontcare:
The only reason people are so elitist against WoW is because they want to be seen as "cool". They consider themselves "above WoW". They're sheep that call us WoW players sheep. They're "non-conformist" conformists.

Umm, No.

Didn't read all of the responses (got to page 2) before I realized that "Go back 2 WoW" is like a heroin addict telling someone to go back to cocaine. (Yes, I play MMOs... Lifetime Member for STO, and I don't regret it.)

Yeah, I heard that quite a bit on Neosteam. It's a different game - but definitely has some rabid players. Newbies are regularly hit with that comment if they ask questions or complain about the very limit quests.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of WoW (and think the new expanion is a bit of a rip-off of my favorite MMORPGer). But it has its merits: its visually gorgeous and expansive and has an intriguing narrative.

There are FAR worse MMORPGers out there.

The problem with searching for the phrase "go back to wow" is that it includes:

"I may go back to wow"

"I won't ever go back to wow"

"Will I ever go back to wow?"

and other such phrases.

While I agree with you on the idea that the criticism will ultimately close down discussion and paralyse more enlightened debate about the qualities or possible improvements to another game, I think there is a reason behind the use of the phrase that you didn't touch on.

A lot of games, like Guild Wars, strive to do something completely different with the genre than with WoW. Sometimes the "go back to WoW" statement is more of a summary of an opinion that, well, the proposed feature or suggestion would only make the game more like WoW rather than necessarily better. It might even be seen as a move away from the purpose of said game. People summarise their opinions in such a way often. It's just a part of interacting on the Internet.

Let me be more specific. If, say, someone were to propose that Guild Wars should have a level cap in the eighties, this would ignore the philosophy behind the game; that is, the level cap is much lower than in other MMOs because this fosters stronger balance and more skill-based gameplay in PvP matches. The simpler a system is, the more likely it is for the developers to create something fair that can only be exploited for so long. In such a situation, I think the proposer is making the massive assumption that the WoW-style approach is the only way to go in an MMO. This is obviously the wrong idea, and sometimes people rightly get impatient with this.

You could say that I understand both sides here. At the end of the day, WoW is great, but it's not a perfect example of how to do everything right, and other games should not follow it blindly, an idea that doesn't always occur to fans of WoW who then try other MMOs. By the same hand, it is unfair not to explain to such people what they're missing in a civil and effective way.

It's a good thing that developers seem to be better at this than members of the forum have, so fair and balanced criticism does get to the people that count regardless. I remember Gaile Gray, a major developing figure for GW on their official forum, had to deal with numerous forum dramas and complaints about nerfing and low level caps, and she always did so in a way that I respect. I'm sure that Blizzard's teams are like this as well.

KillerRabbit:
Wotlk raiding was joke!

and where is your lich king heroic mount sir?

raiding isn't easier, entry level raiding is easier. A lot of what people(as far as i can see) identify as WoW becoming easier is in actuality the game becoming more tiered. for example when naxx 40 came out how long was it before the world first kill of kt from release(hint: bc launched 4 months later) the 4 horse men being the longest undefeated boss after release until the heroic lich king, which took a full 3 weeks more then the 4 horsemen. If it takes players who have been practicing longer(people have accumulated a bit of play experience in 5 years) longer to complete the content with a 10% damage health and healing buff then ever before i would argue that the content is demonstratively harder.

Judging by your possibly off results there, yes, it does seem the more troubled games have more insults thrown about in their forums, Age of Conan especially.

I can't stand people trying to shut down discussion and improvement, it's the same thing that irks me when people just yell "troll" at someone trying to be critical so something can be improved, they just get insulted, ironcally, normaly trolled off of the area they were trying to talk in.

Of course, if they were going to act like that and the people you're trying to talk to allow them to act like that, would the sensible suggestion have gotten through to them anyway?
Most likely not, but it still makes me sad to think about it.

Cruel world...

I actually have some sympathy towards the players who might pull the "go back to WoW" card after being subject to some of the stuff alleged WoW players throw around in other games.

I started playing DDO last October and for the first 5 levels had to go through the annoyance of having to turn off the General,Trade and Advice channels because it was a nonstop cesspool of this:

Players A: "WTF why can't I do X,Y,Z, this game sucks. WoW is so much better" or "OMFG this game is nothing but a WoW clone, this sucks"

Player B: "Are you on drugs? This game is like so much different".

Players A: "Everyone playing this game a n00b and you suck and Turbine sucks and whaddaya mean I have to pay for quests"

Player C: "LFG lvl 2 Wizard".

Player D: "Use the LFG panel, in this game it's the fastest way to get a group"

Player E: "Lol, LFG panels are for n00btards. In WoW you find groups on General Chat"

Player F: "Epic Fail, I died to a Kobold. This game sucks ass"

Player X,Y,Z: "Wow did this so much better. You can't even do X,Y,Z"

You still can't go through the first few levels without your eyes bleeding due to chats like these. So yeah, in some cases saying "go back to WoW" can be justified.

Hmm, I think the most interesting part of this article was actually the opening paragraphs; why DOES our hobby have such an incredibly higher proportion of douchebags than other pasttimes? It's a cause of great concern.

If there's one game where I think "go back to WoW" is actually a VALID challenge, it's EvE Online. EvE is so radically different from not only WoW but virtually every other MMO that it requires not only a different playstyle but a completely different mindset and player mentality. The weak and unprepared need NOT apply.

Onyx Oblivion:
Aion? 15.

O_o

They seem like nice people.

Almost certainly a typo. 15,000 is more likely, take it from me.

And having played Aion, I can safely say that I think it's time for me to "go back to Guild Wars".

DividedUnity:
I love the results differences between Aion and everyone else.

Yeah I hate that arguement too. Its like on BF:BD2 if you complain about a feature in game its always go back to CoD

Don't mind if I do.

*throws BC2 against a wall and plays CoD4*

Yeah, you're right.

OT: I've been around the MMO's and this phrase has probably been said to me about 500 times. Maybe more. It happened the most in FFXI. Incidentally, FFXI is the worst MMORPG I've played.

Zemalac:

PaulH:

Zemalac:

Shamus Young:

Do skiers and snow boarders hate each other with the same fervor as Xbox and PS3 fans?

Yes. Possibly more so.

Goddamn skiers, taking up the entire frickin' slope. If you're going to go back and forth like that, at least let people pass you instead of cutting in front of them...RANT

Kinda funny remark given that skiers are FASTER because of the reduced friction to the snow because of the (usually) reduced surface area of the skis in comparison to snowboards.

They may be faster. In fact, they are faster. This is truth.

However, most skiers (or at least, most that I have seen) tend to go back and forth on the slope, thus blocking the entire trail to someone who is being careful not to run into people while passing because you never know when the skier is going to turn back the other way and run straight into you and then it's your own goddamn fault because they were lower on the slope than you and it's your responsibility to watch out for that...

Anyway. I understand that people go back and forth in order to reduce their speed to something manageable: it still annoys me when I want to just bomb down the slope without having to slow down and wait for the right moment to pass someone. Pet peeve of mine, as it were.

Bah you could say the same thing about surfers and body surfers :3

But the reason why I commented was because if you take a skier and a snowboarder of level skill and training in their chosen craft, it's the 'boarder' thats going to get in the way, because the skier is going to leave him in his wake.

The skier is down the bottom of the slope before boarder are half way down.

So technically speaking it's more likely a case that its SLOW SNOWBOARDERS getting in the way.

Personally I prefer skiing, more skill, more speed. :P That being said I don't hate on boarders. If theres a collection of them I wait a second before making them taste puff :3

PaulH:

Bah you could say the same thing about surfers and body surfers :3

But the reason why I commented was because if you take a skier and a snowboarder of level skill and training in their chosen craft, it's the 'boarder' thats going to get in the way, because the skier is going to leave him in his wake.

This is true, in theory. However, I have never once encountered it, except when I was intentionally racing someone on skis. On a snowboard I am, with few exceptions, going faster than every skier on the slope, because they're always going back and forth and getting in the way.

To be honest, it's probably just my personal experience and has nothing to do with reality, but there you have it. Generalizing from self has brought me this far; I see no reason to abandon it now ;)

Shamus Young:
Experienced Points: Go Back To WoW

These are four words that we'd all be better off never speaking - or hearing - again.

Read Full Article

On the WoW forums, we have "Go play runescape"

So I guess we aren't much different XD

I have a friend who loves to talk smack about WoW to my grilfriend and I, both of whom play WoW.

It always amazes me how he's so opinionated about a game he hasn't participated in for 3 or 4 years, and how he immediately dismisses any new content/lore as codling casual gamers (instead of an ever evolving game as I do).

Ulitmately his complaints devolve into complaints about how the MMO-genre isn't as 'hardcore' as it use to be - to which I promptly respond THANK GOD! If grind/small community/6+hour raids = hardcore I want it to be gone forever.

I remember he tried to get me into EQ, and basically camping a spawn point and auto-attacking things to death made me lose interest pretty quickly. DAoC was a little better, but still terribly grind-y (obviously opinion). SWG was about the same as DAoC...but I love Sci-fi so I was able to deal with it.

WoW however, was the first that grabbed my attention, and held on. So when I try new games, and go to the forums to find a thread, make constructive feedback, and then get told to go back to WoW I always think of my friend and his rose-colored lenses. It's kind of sad how people equate polish and user-friendly-ness to an insult.

shadwotycho:

KillerRabbit:
Wotlk raiding was joke!

and where is your lich king heroic mount sir?

raiding isn't easier, entry level raiding is easier. A lot of what people(as far as i can see) identify as WoW becoming easier is in actuality the game becoming more tiered. for example when naxx 40 came out how long was it before the world first kill of kt from release(hint: bc launched 4 months later) the 4 horse men being the longest undefeated boss after release until the heroic lich king, which took a full 3 weeks more then the 4 horsemen. If it takes players who have been practicing longer(people have accumulated a bit of play experience in 5 years) longer to complete the content with a 10% damage health and healing buff then ever before i would argue that the content is demonstratively harder.

I love when people talk smack about current raiding too. My response usually starts up with, do you use addons? Did you design your own spec? Did you determine which gems were best for your spec by youself? etc...etc...

Raiding isn't any easier than it use to be. I'd argue that fights are actually more difficult since they involve interesting mechanics finally (looking back at MC/BWL ugh what boring mechanics).

Raiding is, however, much more accessible since people run addons like DBM, generate spreadsheets to maximize their dps, can look up guides for BiS items, and dps rotations. These things weren't all that common in earlier editions of WoW - especially in vanilla (the raid version most complainers seem to be the most nostolgic about) I actually really don't like this facet that has cropped up - that is the number crunching - as I am sure it kind of handcuffs developers. But, it's human nature, and even moreso nerd/geek nature to use t3h maths.

I quit WoW about a month ago due to being so busy with college work. In that time I've sort of had withdrawal symptoms and I have wanted to go back to WoW but honestly, I haven't missed it much. Mostly because I have been so busy with other things. It is probably one of the better MMO's out there though and I'll probably renew my subscription when college is finished for this year and summer rolls around.

shadwotycho:

KillerRabbit:
Wotlk raiding was joke!

and where is your lich king heroic mount sir?

Actually I reactivated my account to try the argent tournament thingy instance, but since that was a joke as well and I experienced killing heroic Anub'arak, and the raid instance felt like a big "meh" I never got convinced to reactivate the account again for the Lich King.

Sure it might be a good raid instance, and very hard on "heroic" (another system I don't like - should only be one mode on the instances!) "I will kill the boss the difficult way, instead of the easy".
Anyway, the server I played on the whole alliance has moved to another server, so I have no guild(s) and or friends to return to anymore, so they can have it!

I'll hope Biowares star wars MMO will be worth the wait instead!

John Funk:
Go back to WoW? Don't mind if I do.

Playing WoW right now, Waiting to raid.
:)
I am not going to disrespect any game, simply because I have not played most MMORPGs, I dabbled in LOTR and found the servers desolate, interesting gameplay, but not my cup of tea.

Frankly anyone uninspired / unintelligent enough to think telling someone to "go back to WoW" is a retort, meets exactly the criteria of the type of dipshit who plays the Anal or Murloc game in trade chat.
Exactly the type of person any MMORPG is all the richer for not having on its subscription list.

KillerRabbit:

shadwotycho:

KillerRabbit:
Wotlk raiding was joke!

and where is your lich king heroic mount sir?

Actually I reactivated my account to try the argent tournament thingy instance, but since that was a joke as well and I experienced killing heroic Anub'arak, and the raid instance felt like a big "meh" I never got convinced to reactivate the account again for the Lich King.

Sure it might be a good raid instance, and very hard on "heroic" (another system I don't like - should only be one mode on the instances!) "I will kill the boss the difficult way, instead of the easy".

I smell bullshit.
ToC is not easy on heroic, and ICC is hard on normal.

And why would being able to choose the difficulty of the raid be a bad thing?
More people get to experience the content, while still being able to provide challenge to experienced players.
It has no downsides, other than being more work for the developers.

Denamic:

KillerRabbit:

shadwotycho:

KillerRabbit:
Wotlk raiding was joke!

and where is your lich king heroic mount sir?

Actually I reactivated my account to try the argent tournament thingy instance, but since that was a joke as well and I experienced killing heroic Anub'arak, and the raid instance felt like a big "meh" I never got convinced to reactivate the account again for the Lich King.

Sure it might be a good raid instance, and very hard on "heroic" (another system I don't like - should only be one mode on the instances!) "I will kill the boss the difficult way, instead of the easy".

I smell bullshit.
ToC is not easy on heroic, and ICC is hard on normal.

And why would being able to choose the difficulty of the raid be a bad thing?
More people get to experience the content, while still being able to provide challenge to experienced players.
It has no downsides, other than being more work for the developers.

As I said before, I have not tried ICC, but consider how many bosses they killed instantly they opened the place, I would not consider it hard - I remember the first two bosses in BWL - those where guild killers! Ah, the good old days! (I once ninjapulled Razorgore when I dropped the mouse on my keyboard, try to explain that to 39 angry raiders on teamspeak! "yeah sure you did")

Well, while having a difficulty setting in a raid might not be a bad thing & that people get to experience more content is good for developers so they don't waste all the time on 1% of the people skilled enough to experience it, I *personally* still don't like it since I come from a WoW time when I started raiding only a few guilds had even killed Ragnaros.

I think there should be content that only really skilled people can experience, to get that mystery feeling and the "climb mount everest" feeling in the game.

Ah, the days when I finally stood in full tier 2 Dragonstalker gear! so many jealous whispers from the other hunters on the servers - good times, good times!

Sadly the guild I played in at that time was not skilled enough to complete Naxxramas for all the tier 3 gear.

Finally an Experienced Points I can agree with without reservation. I've played a number of MMO's and for quite some time resisted the lure of playing WoW with any seriousness. At the end of the day, many of these MMO's could stand to learn something from WoW so the regular advice to give it a try was not far from the mark. Eve Online (the MMO I spent the MOST time with) eventually drove me away by the lethal combination of utterly terrible PVE and the built in requirment to participate in it to a degree to fund one's PVP endeavors. LOTRO was a quality game, but once I reached the end (a few months after launch) there wasn't anything left to do but grind deeds, and even that only extended my playtime by a few weeks.

All of these games have a problem that fanboys often try to ignore, and that is WoW attracts a player base that dwarfs all of it's competition combined. While some may disagree with any of a number of design decisions (from the art style to the PVE focus), a game does not attract a legion of fans willing to pay month after month by being a bad game. Worse still, in many of these cases, the offending "fanboy" is playing a game that copies most of the design elements from WoW.

To be honest, rather than wishing for people to stop acting like asshats (which will be the same day that world peace is declared for serious), I'd simply settle for more MMOs that are distinctly different from WoW. It always seemed odd when playing LOTRO when I was advised to "go back to WOW" (having never played it at the time), seeing as once I tried WoW it was surprisingly familiar.

KillerRabbit:
As I said before, I have not tried ICC, but consider how many bosses they killed instantly they opened the place, I would not consider it hard - I remember the first two bosses in BWL - those where guild killers! Ah, the good old days! (I once ninjapulled Razorgore when I dropped the mouse on my keyboard, try to explain that to 39 angry raiders on teamspeak! "yeah sure you did")

Well, while having a difficulty setting in a raid might not be a bad thing & that people get to experience more content is good for developers so they don't waste all the time on 1% of the people skilled enough to experience it, I *personally* still don't like it since I come from a WoW time when I started raiding only a few guilds had even killed Ragnaros.

I think there should be content that only really skilled people can experience, to get that mystery feeling and the "climb mount everest" feeling in the game.

They managed to kill the bosses that fast because they had info and datamines from the beta, on top of being highly organized and vastly overgeared.
When each new wing opened, they had already gotten gear and frost badges from the previous wing, on top of their heroic ToC gear that's still better than non-heroic ICC loot.
To look at the success of guilds like Ensidia and Paragon and come to the conclusion that it's 'easy' is wrong on so many levels.
They operate on a completely different scale.

And yet, even they couldn't kill the lich king on heroic until the buff was at 10%.
It's definitively harder than BWL ever was, so you still got that 'mount Everest' to climb to even get to the lich king on normal 10 man.

This is likely to get me some flak from the resident Turbine Fanboys, but those numbers arn't exactly accurate. There was what is being referenced as, "The great forum purge" on the DDO forums a few years back. Based on how hostile those forums can be... I wouldn't be surprised if the "real" count for Dungeons and Dragons Online didn't look something more along the lines of, greater then all the competition put together. And I say that with all seriousness.

But again, sticking with the trend, look at the games history. Anyone who knows what the player base went through, what Turbine went through / going through with Atari, the player base was imo rightfully frustrated. And in the end it really only was the die hard fanboys who kept the game from dieing and being reincarnated as a F2P/P2P hybrid. And for that they have my thanks cause its slowly turning into a better game.

Go back to WoW!

Shamus Young:
Do people that fish using waders call the other fishermen "boatfags"? I'm having a hard time picturing it.

Hahaha, I was in tears just picturing that!

sougo13:
Nice article, next you should look up the phrase 'Go back to CoD'.

Onyx Oblivion:
Aion? 15.

O_o

They seem like nice people.

Maybe because it's quite new? (compare to the rest anyways)

Its fanbase is also pleased with the game, I suppose. There are so few people whining about it, as thus there are so few people saying "GOSH go back to WoW if you want those changes!"

Hard to tell which fact is more dominant.

the internet is full of so many people that cant stand being told there game is bad, such a shame

Telling someone to go back to game X can also mean the game being discussed is different from X and the players playing it like it for that reason (e.g. suggesting to turn Section 8 into CoD, I have both, I play what I play because I prefer it that way).

I have never typed it but i have thought it. Interestingly enough in Age of Conan. I ran into a player who was doing the thief quest where you have to follow someone, watch what they do, and then take something that they put down. The player in question had been following the npc in loops for hours (his/her words not mine) trying to figure out this incredibly simple quest. I did not say "go back to WoW", i believe i used the term "beginners help is one thing but i'm not gonna hold the hands of retards" and yes i was called on it even though it was very appropriate in that circumstance. Basically whenever a game is too complex for someone, they should probably "go back to WoW". WoW is awesome and accessible to everyone, even those who can't rtfq.

Computer-Noob:

sougo13:
Nice article, next you should look up the phrase 'Go back to CoD'.

Onyx Oblivion:
Aion? 15.

O_o

They seem like nice people.

Maybe because it's quite new? (compare to the rest anyways)

Its fanbase is also pleased with the game, I suppose. There are so few people whining about it, as thus there are so few people saying "GOSH go back to WoW if you want those changes!"

Hard to tell which fact is more dominant.

I think anyone who has played the game will tell you that it's neither. Aion players are simply utilizing a more direct method of "Go back to WoW". On any given day, across several of their servers, you can find hours of conversation and debate in their main server wide chat channel "LFG" entirely devoted to why WoW is terrible. If you have even a minor complaint about Aion you're almost exclusively met with "Go back to WoW".

Aion players treat WoW like a hot ex girlfriend/boyfriend who dumped them...

I see the same kinda thing in console forums only it either mentions Call of Duty or Halo but you don't see that kinda thing in WoW forums true, you either get the Runescape thing, Hello Kitty Online (which is one of the most complex and skill-driven online games out there _) or they say ask a GM followed by l33t speak

In all honest Shamus has taken a rather negative approach to the phrase "Go back to WoW". I myseelf have onlyused such a phrase when I've tried and tested whichever MMO and have decided I'm far better off playing wow (or some other game since I cant afford WoW right now>.>)

I tried D&D Online myself and I found it somewhat lacking in regular casual enjoyability (yay for new words!). One of the things that really put me off of D&D was the fact that you don't regenerate health outside of towns and the healing sites only restore a fraction of your HP. Now in a raid situation this would be a pretty nifty mechanic to have but when you are out grinding XP its a pretty nasty mechanic to have since as a newbie you have to run pretty friggen far to get back to town. It wouldnt be so bad if healing potions werent so expensive.

Games like WoW and SMTI have their regen mechanics perfected down to a T. Very small regen while running (like 2 hp every few seconds) which is buffed when you are sitting (SMTI has this I cant remember if WoW does or not havnt played it in THAT long).

As for storage space since I just saw it on Sonic Doctor's post, WoW has the abillity to give you over 200 slots of storage space with the 22 slot bags that are available for yourself and your bank. Add in the ability to have a guild bank aswell if you have enough friends to set up a side guild for yourself and your alts and you've got well into almost 500 slots if you have the cash to spend on tabs.

Finally Shamus has unfortunately neglected to mention the quite frankly massive changes they are bringing in reguarding rebalancing and completely overhauling classes. (unfortunately it seems like it'll still be the same slightly irritating setup of Paladins being OP and rogues getting nerfed out the ass)

But regardless, they seem to be heading in a direction that will generally make people happier, although they STILL havnt caught onto the fact that people want skills to be split like sap is for pvp and PVE, different effects for two different types of play. I know I would be a hell of a lot happier if they did that, that way my rogue wouldnt get screwed in pve damage every time they nerfed them in pvp.

While the article didn't really WoW me, I agree with it's sentiment. While this isn't a very fanboyant practice of ours, I doubt that it can ever change. Though, sometimes, I will note that the -fag suffix is used term of endearment.

To clarify on my earlier post: yes, there are two instances in which the thread title comes into play.
1 - When an MMO elitist goes "eww WoW" and then loads up Aion after spending an hour writing out a long-ass post about why Aion beats WoW in all aspects of MMO-hood and chewing out an innocent WoW player for no apparent reason.
2 - When a player quits WoW and joins another MMO, and then makes suggestions to the developers that are similar to something already in WoW, because WoW is what this player is used to. "Hey people you should give us flying mounts hurr!"

Number 2 is the only instance in which telling someone to "go back to WoW" is justified. MMO elitists are pathetic and close-minded non-conformist conformists.

Hope that clears things up a bit, especially for that guy who posted earlier telling me I'm wrong.

Marowit:
I love when people talk smack about current raiding too. My response usually starts up with, do you use addons? Did you design your own spec? Did you determine which gems were best for your spec by youself? etc...etc..

From what I've heard, this is frowned upon.

I don't like the fact that people have the audacity to tell me what gems I use, what spec I have, etc. Talents were implemented for customization, but that has disappeared in end-game, which unfortunately makes Dual Spec a necessary evil. I get called a "terribad" when I tell enquiring players that in most cases there's no such thing as a bad spec.

Marowit:
Raiding is, however, much more accessible since people run addons like DBM, generate spreadsheets to maximize their dps, can look up guides for BiS items, and dps rotations. These things weren't all that common in earlier editions of WoW - especially in vanilla (the raid version most complainers seem to be the most nostolgic about) I actually really don't like this facet that has cropped up - that is the number crunching - as I am sure it kind of handcuffs developers. But, it's human nature, and even moreso nerd/geek nature to use t3h maths.

I've been playing WoW since 2005 and I've yet to start raiding. Now I want to start, but the problem is I've got morons left and right who are telling me exactly what talents I should get, gems, enchants, etc. Attempting to hold my virtual hand through it all. Words like "simcraft", "bis", etc being thrown around non-stop. Telling anyone who asks for mere advice to go straight to the appropriate class forums and re-spec into one of the four or five exact talent builds that were specifically designed by "simcraft experts" who care only about bigger numbers than bigger fun. Any excuse for them to just take the fun out of raiding so they can simply face-roll every raid instance that is implemented. It's incredibly disgraceful, and removes a fair bit of the challenge that's supposed to be found in end-game raids. The only reason a raid like this might still find it difficult is because they're either just starting to learn the fights or they lack coordination.

Nothing wrong with a bit of number crunching but when it leads to so much elitism, delusions of superiority, forced hand-holding and complete lack of fun/customization, something has gone terribly wrong. Five mages in an end-game raiding guild with the exact same talent build just because their Guild Master has ordered them to re-spec in a certain way is not customization, and completely detracts from the entire point of talents in the first place, which is character customization. The WoW community is the only thing wrong with WoW as far as I'm concerned.

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