Male Protagonists

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A spaceship that cannot stop - that is a pretty big design flaw. Glad you changed it so the ship will stop now.

Massive muscles = gay?

I dont get it.

YA! Yahtzee just gave us all a lovely trip of what his ideal man would be. Wouldn't it be dull if this was that majority game characters though?

AnarchistAbe:
Why is the Macho-Man so hated in the gaming community? Am I the only one who likes playing an 80s Action Hero as my video game persona? I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

Have all gamers been so emotionally ripped apart by "bros" and "football jock douches" that they can't enjoy the macho-man for fear of being thrown in a trashcan and given a wedgie? All joking aside: really, what is the issue with having a character that has muscles on his muscles and uses a gun as big as he is?

I started to suspect a while ago that there are some massive insecurity issues here, especially considering how little most of their complaints have to do with what these characters are actually like. Some people seem to take it so personally that I'm not sure there's any other explanation than them feeling threatened by any man that doesn't act like he has a vagina.

Take Marcus Fenix: This is a guy who has been shown to not actually like the war he's fighting. He ranges from being annoyed at some of the more minor stuff (taking orders from guys he doesn't like, having to train a rookie) to being horrified at the more serious stuff (What happened to Thai) to showing concern for Carmine, to trying to comfort and console his friend when his wife dies. All in all, he gives off the impression of someone who is just tired of it all, but doesn't have any way out.

Marcus never engages in any of this overly-macho behavior that these characters supposedly wallow in. He's entirely driven by a sense of duty: he has to fight. Mankind's survival is on the line; it's entirely selfless. When he finds out that the locust have been taking people, he goes after them to try to help them. When he finds out that Dom's wife may be alive and nearby, he's torn between helping his friend and completing an important mission.

What, exactly, do people want from the guy?

No, he never breaks down screaming at the sky or goes into the fetal position crying, but there's a difference between a character being stoic or understated and only feeling rage. Subtlety in writing is actually considered a good thing in most places.

Master Chief is another example. He's shown to be respectful to pretty much everybody except for the aliens that he's fighting. He's got a dry sense of humor. He never shows any arrogance. He never uses violence in any kind or uncontrolled or unnecessary manner. All in all, he's a highly disciplined soldier who acts with every ounce of maturity that you'd want from mankind's last hope.

Where, exactly, does this image of him being an obnoxious meathead come from other than people
who have never played the game?

This stereotype really came from 90's comicbook characters where the 'heroes' were undisguised sociopaths with an overabundance of pouches and guns that made no sense whatsoever who we were supposed to think were awesome because of how EXTREME they were (think Rob Liefield), but it gets horribly overapplied to places where it really isn't true.

AnarchistAbe:
I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

This is another good example of people getting confused by mixed stereotypes: Rambo was never a 'banter' guy. The first movie was about him having a breakdown because he couldn't adjust to civilian life after the war. The movie ended with an old friend talking him down and getting him to surrender to police. He didn't want to be 'macho', he just wanted to find a way to get his life together again. Hell, the movie could be viewed as a deconstruction of overly macho heroes.

John McClain became famous for being a more human action hero. He got beat up a lot. He bled. He was trying to fix a broken marriage. He was only fighting a handful of guys, and he only ever took them on one at a time, and it was never easy. The first Die Hard was practically wrote the book on the more grounded action hero (Or course, the movies got less grounded as they went on).

You had me at the "Emmeline Pankhursts." I am now unable to look at Gears of War in the same way....my play experience has changed forever......

Foshorror:

Er, no. Average temperatures in space (when there's no local star around) can get extremely cold, like hundreds of degrees below zero cold. Add in the fact that there's no atmosphere to hold in your own heat that you are constantly radiating off (like a big hot engine that is in desperate need of a tuneup)

An atmosphere does not 'hold in heat' better than a vacuum. In fact, nothing does. A vacuum is the best insulator known to man. The "average temperature in space" is misleading- empty space does not actually have a temperature. Temperature is something that matter has. The background radiation can be measured at about 2.73 Kelvin, but the "temperature" of the vacuum of space is no different than the "temperature" of a vacuum created on Earth with the lights turned off. Objects in space are only cold because they've had a very, very long time to radiate all of their heat away.

So, would Duke Nukem be considered macho? Or is he disqualified by the "parody/comedy clause"?

You got a good point

But when I played Gears Of War, I never really thought of Marcus as macho, I thought he was what you get if you take a fully trained military man and have him disregard protocol.

Therumancer:
For all Yahtzee's dislike of the stereotype, I think "Macho" protaganists have their place in games, I think they are just overdone and appear far too often.

I feel that the "machos" place in gaming is for those games that are strictly to blow off steam. That's all they're good for.

Leave the stories and adventures to the manly men.

As always, intelligently articulated valid points, oh Yahtzee master.

arcstone:
Massive muscles = gay?
I dont get it.

Massive muscles means you have devoted more than necessary time to physical training, you've only focused on the physical aspects as opposed to looking at strategies or other mental skills. Massive muscles also imply an unrealistic quality, much like the personality of the macho.

Dark Templar:

AnarchistAbe:

Dark Templar:

AnarchistAbe:
Why is the Macho-Man so hated in the gaming community? Am I the only one who likes playing an 80s Action Hero as my video game persona? I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

Have all gamers been so emotionally ripped apart by "bros" and "football jock douches" that they can't enjoy the macho-man for fear of being thrown in a trashcan and given a wedgie? All joking aside: really, what is the issue with having a character that has muscles on his muscles and uses a gun as big as he is?

Nothing really. I like the characters on the opposite extreme personally. I don't feel anything is inherently wrong with he slightly effeminate, softer male characters either. To each his own?

To each his own. It all comes down to personal preference, and softer characters can be good as well (Nathan Drake comes to mind), but ,as I stated, I'll stick with Marcus Phoenix as my character =)

They should make a game where there are 2 main characters, one is a Raiden esqe pretty boy and the other is a Marcus Phenix esqe macho man. They can be partners in something.......mercenaries maybe? I'll start on the design documents.

Like in Army of Two, perhaps? Not to be all "Simpsons did it".

JBrasington:
"He has the greatest respect for scholars and technical experts who have mastered necessary skills that he himself lacks. He is patient with children, and respectful of the opposite sex. The manly man romances women he finds particularly intriguing, and given the appropriate mutual consents, will do her tenderly and satisfyingly right up the Edith Piaf. And she will love it."

I'm not sure how you played Nico Belic, but this is not how I played Nico.

Also Alex Mercer from prototype. In the cut scenes he comes across as a nice but damaged person, "I only kill what's necessary" Then they give us back control and I become a massive jerk, who takes women up skyscrapers to thrown them at helicopters.

In fairness, I did play Mercer as a decent-but-damaged individual who was in a terrible situation when I played through Prototype: I only engaged the military when absolutely necessary, and tried to minimize civilian casualties wherever/whenever possible (which admittedly would have been easier if they didn't insist on running right in front of my tank when I'm booking down a street at 60 mph).

However, I am fairly certain that I'm in an especially small minority there (and I was less scrupulous in Hard mode, too), so good point anyway.

...

Delicious Anathema:
Chris Redfield kinda blurs the line between manly and macho I think.

...

He's built like a macho man in Resi 5 (those ARMS), but his actual behaviour is manly, so yes, I agree. I think he's a great character (in the RE 'verse, anyway: take that as you will).

In regards to the Space Game:

Why would the engine freeze? Contrary to what Hollywood (or whatever your Australian equivalent is) might say, space is NOT cold. Nor is it hot. It is essentially the perfect insulator; convection heat transfer does not work. Nor would state changes be really practical. The only effective way to get rid of heat in space would be through radiation; concentrating the heat into specific points and emitting it as light and/or storing the energy in some sort of battery. Indeed, your engine wouldn't be liable to freeze up; it'd be more likely to overheat, burning fuel without the ability to dump excess heat in the form of propulsion.

Might I make a suggestion? You could have a stealth mode, where you don't move and don't emit radiation, making you much less detectable, but you run the risk of overheating. If your ship is powered by fusion, you could have a heavy water tank that served as both fuel and emergency coolant in case you run too hot.

Yeah, just a suggestion, take it as you will. Just keep in mind, if you have your engine start 'cooling off' and you aren't lighting up the sensors of every other ship for miles around (can't cool it off without emitting radiation massive amounts of radiation), there might be a problem with the game's realism.

Biscotti187:
YA! Yahtzee just gave us all a lovely trip of what his ideal man would be. Wouldn't it be dull if this was that majority game characters though?

If you started making the majority of game characters very similar it would start to get dull no matter what personality types you picked.

Well, on the upside, Macho men won't be reproducing too much.

Interesting to hear about your ongoing game. The breaking-on-a-time-limit does sound like a great idea. Do you have any kind of temporary booster at all? Stopping on a dime is nice, but attempting to evade enemy fire when your only options are 'maintain speed or stop' seems a little... frustrating. Maybe boost speed could have the opposite problem of the engines being stopped (ie, rapid increase in temperature) and an even shorter life span...

On the off-chance that Yahtzee notices this:

Considering your choice of Emgine Temperature as a mechanic in FSG:TG, in order to avoid a common trope that can lead to some jarring raised eyebrows, namely Space Is Cold, may I suggest you flip the terminology?

Space is a terribly good isolator, and if you are anywhere near a star, heat, praradoxically, not cold is your main problem in spacecraft operations. Assuming your craft is powered by some sort of near-eternal atomic/fusion/anti-matter/phlebotinum engine, let the problem with staying still be not that it freezes, but rather that the engine core builds up heat.

Venting the engine champer (by moving, and maybe as a later upgrade through a device that lets you remain stationary longer, if you want to go the route of upgrading crafts), cools it off again. Same mechanic, slightly more realistic reason.

Maulkin:
Why would the engine freeze? Contrary to what Hollywood (or whatever your Australian equivalent is) might say, space is NOT cold. Nor is it hot. It is essentially the perfect insulator; convection heat transfer does not work. Nor would state changes be really practical. The only effective way to get rid of heat in space would be through radiation; concentrating the heat into specific points and emitting it as light and/or storing the energy in some sort of battery. Indeed, your engine wouldn't be liable to freeze up; it'd be more likely to overheat, burning fuel without the ability to dump excess heat in the form of propulsion.

Might I make a suggestion? You could have a stealth mode, where you don't move and don't emit radiation, making you much less detectable, but you run the risk of overheating. If your ship is powered by fusion, you could have a heavy water tank that served as both fuel and emergency coolant in case you run too hot.

This is pretty much what I was going to suggest. Assuming it has some kind of fusion drive core or something which is always running, and they're *not* throwing ions out the back to keep the ship moving (and not otherwise radiating heat away) it's going to heat up like mad, potentially melting and/or frying everyone in the ship. And if they do start radiating more heat to compensate, their stealth level will be decreasing rapidly (assuming enemies have thermal sensors, which seems likely).

Even with some other kind of drive core that doesn't produce heat or can be instantly switched on or off, radiation is required to get rid of body heat from the crew, or it'll get really uncomfortable.

Excellent article. Exactly my thoughts on game and movie protagonists.

Foshorror:

Seneschal:

Sovvolf:
Well I guess macho-men aren't too bad as a gameplay character... I mean look at Kratos... he pretty much fits the entire description of a macho-man. Though I do get your point, manly men are macho-men with personality and maybe a brain.

Well, yes, the games can be functional, but it's better if some though has been put into it. Kratos, for example, does not have the exaggerated looks typical of what Yahtzee once called "a twelve-year-old's vision of masculinity." He wears a skirt and some sandals. And the fleece, but that has a purpose.

And besides, the games do their best to show just how demented Kratos is, letting you have fun, but showing you at a lot of points that your actions are quite questionable. If anything, it's a self-aware macho game with a dark parody of the macho protagonist.

Anyway, nice to hear FSG:TG is progressing. Piloting a faulty ship and making it part of the gameplay sounds like a good way to introduce a sense of urgency. Only, the freezing thing isn't believable without some further elaboration - space isn't really cold (despite what The Phantom Menace tells you). If the ship had a faulty cooling system, with the coolant unable to stop circulating, you would have to run the engine to avoid it being frozen. But, if it's actually more intuitive for the average player to have space be an Antarctica-like environment where ships get hypothermia, it's a valid choice.

Er, no. Average temperatures in space (when there's no local star around) can get extremely cold, like hundreds of degrees below zero cold. Add in the fact that there's no atmosphere to hold in your own heat that you are constantly radiating off (like a big hot engine that is in desperate need of a tuneup) can mean that anything that was "hot" will rapidly vent heat until it freezes...then freezes even harder.

So yeah, Yahtzee's idea of an engine that freezes unless it is kept running is a perfectly valid story factor as well as a fairly unique game play element (Lost Planet doesn't count).

This again. It's uncanny how I got more quotes for saying "space isn't cold" than for the actual topic of macho men.

No, space isn't cold. Temperature is a property of matter, and deep space has surprisingly little. The background temperature of 3 Kelvin merely means that any exposed matter will radiate heat until it reaches that temperature, but unlike heat transfer (in a medium such as air or water), heat radiation is a slow process. Space isn't "hot" in the vicinity of a star, it isn't anything. There's nothing to be heated. It's just that sunlight still hits anything drifting around, and without an insulation from an atmosphere, the thing heats up really fast.

And no, an engine running with no radiators will not have trouble keeping warm; in fact, it'll likely melt itself. Operating a rocket engine produces enormous amounts of heat, which is all fine while you're in the atmosphere, since the heat is transferred to the surrounding air. While you're in space, the heat has nowhere to go via conduction since the ship is touching nothing, and it's created at a far greater pace than it is radiated.

The "faulty cooling system that keeps pumping even when the engines are off" sounds much more plausible, and it actually explains the effect that Yahtzee wants. Especially if it's the future and cooling technology has become awesome - except when you can't shut it down.

AnarchistAbe:
Why is the Macho-Man so hated in the gaming community? Am I the only one who likes playing an 80s Action Hero as my video game persona? I love the Rambo/John McClain macho badass banter, but it seems that it is constantly ripped apart in the games media.

Have all gamers been so emotionally ripped apart by "bros" and "football jock douches" that they can't enjoy the macho-man for fear of being thrown in a trashcan and given a wedgie? All joking aside: really, what is the issue with having a character that has muscles on his muscles and uses a gun as big as he is?

It all comes down to a fairly simple distinction: The Macho man is stupid, the Manly Man actually acts like a human being. You can pin this on some idea of "oh nerds are just mad cos they got beat up by macho dicks" when it would be more effectively summed up as "Macho guys are dicks".

When Yahtzee says "Macho" he doesn't just mean super-manly guys. He means super-manly guys who are failures at anything other than killing stuff, and in all other facets of life act like irresponsible emotionally retarded twats. THAT is the problem, not the massive guns or the muscles. It's simply that Macho characters are unlikeable because games usually expect us to take them seriously despite them acting like violent selfish 8 year-olds. The rest comes down to personal preference I suppose. I like my good protagonists sensibly dressed and prepared for a fight, you like yours in five layers of power armor wielding the combined firepower of an entire third-world nation. But couldn't we both agree on having our protagonists actually likeable and with a degree of sense about them?

You say you like the classic old action hero? Dutch would be a good example of this - A great big manly muscleman, but one with a bit of common sense who will do what's needed, not get in a strop because his gun isn't big enough. And John McClain is actually one of my favourites, because he is for all intents and purposes an average man who has a few really, really bad days but sure as hell has a personality, a brain in his head, and would really rather have a normal day than start fighting terrorists. He's very manly, and is far more manly than say, Marcus Fenix, because he has nothing to work with but scavenged guns and everyday attire, and actually has an personality.

Yahtzee has said, it's not manliness that's a bad thing - it's the retarded gun-obsessed phsycopathic "heroic" character that's bad, and he's simply using "macho" as a catch-all term for that sort of character. The macho character isn't manly, he's just a big immature child with muscles on.

(Actually, Dutch does enjoy killing those rebels a bit too much for my liking with all those one-liners, but I suppose you can't have everything.)

Sorry for rambling!

BloodSquirrel:
SNIIIP

While I find this whole "omg all the nerds are just insecure" thing pretty insulting and fairly presumptuous, I do see your point here. Marcus Fenix as a character may be a decent guy, but the immediate impression of him is "holy fuck this tank has a face". It's less to do with the individual characters and more to do with a mindset behind certian ones. It's just that Marcus has become a sort of catch-all reference to this "insecure unstable mindless 8 year-old with muscles and a gun" even if he is a character who is very different from that perception.

Sorry for double post!

either if it makes me look good

Male Commander Shepard fits both descriptions perfectly. Manly man paragon, macho man renegade. Would have liked the voice actor to put a little more effort and emotion into his voice, but we'll see with ME3.

InterAirplay:

It all comes down to a fairly simple distinction: The Macho man is stupid, the Manly Man actually acts like a human being. You can pin this on some idea of "oh nerds are just mad cos they got beat up by macho dicks" when it would be more effectively summed up as "Macho guys are dicks".

...When Yahtzee says "Macho" he doesn't just mean super-manly guys. He means super-manly guys who are failures at anything other than killing stuff, and in all other facets of life act like irresponsible emotionally retarded twats. THAT is the problem, not the massive guns or the muscles. It's simply that Macho characters are unlikeable because games usually expect us to take them seriously despite them acting like violent selfish 8 year-olds. The rest comes down to personal preference I suppose. I like my good protagonists sensibly dressed and prepared for a fight, you like yours in five layers of power armor wielding the combined firepower of an entire third-world nation. But couldn't we both agree on having our protagonists actually likeable and with a degree of sense about them? ...

...Yahtzee has said, it's not manliness that's a bad thing - it's the retarded gun-obsessed phsycopathic "heroic" character that's bad, and he's simply using "macho" as a catch-all term for that sort of character. The macho character isn't manly, he's just a big immature child with muscles on....

Had to slim down the quote, so this post wasn't wayyy too long =)

Anyway, I know what kind of character he is talking about...Marcus Phoenix. But, the fact of the matter is....I really like Marcus as a character. Before I get people saying that I am a 13 year old XBL kid who thinks that is what it means to be a real man; I am 19, and have dial-up (so no XBL). I, personally, don't want a protagonist that is vulnerable or soft; I just want a badass who blows **** up!

I don't know about anyone else, but I play video games to feel powerful (i know this says something about my psychological state, but lets not go into that right now....i'm looking at you Freud...), and not to play as the average Joe in an unaverage situation. To me, these characters are the escapism I'm looking for in games. But, it all boils down to personal taste; so there is nothing I can say to change anyone's mind, I'm simply trying to state why I, personally, like characters like Marcus Phoenix.

Being a mans man, who likes to blow shit up doesn't necessarily make a character macho (in Yahtzees terminology). You also don't have to be a suave softie to be manly rather than macho. The problem comes when you stray into Stupid Evil territory.

I find it difficult to play the evil or brutal person in games that allow those sorts of choices, and usually find the bad-for-badassness-sake character less interesting for much the same reason. Take f.inst Fallout 3: The choice to blow up Megaton is a good way to get an early jumpstart on being bad. But it feels utterly retarded to me that you would do it, even if you were an evil fuck who didn't care for the people: What could Tenpenny possibly offer you, that you couldn't get or steal in the town he proposes you blow up? You are hurting your own cause for a bit of cash and a chance to show you are a real bastard. Yay??

The "macho" characters often do this: shout angrily at people who are supposed to be allies, use explosives and guns as the first and only solution to any problem. They are, in a word, shallow, and often rather stupid in how they go about their particular apocalyptic crisis. Give us badass protagonists by all means; explosions, powerarmor and BFGs are cool enough. Just hand them a brain on the way out, please.

Isn't it a bit unfair to lump WW Prince in with the Macho crowd?
Sure, he's all angry and has tattoos on his arm, but other than that he still pretty much fits the "manly" description. Armour that's both streamlined and protective, swords designed for swift, acrobatic combat, and he doesn't have Liefeldian muscle mass. So really the only macho part was the personality, and even then he still managed to display some emotion other than just "Grr Grr Death Grr", specifically, "For the first time in my life, I am scared." Really, the only reason he was always angry was because he had no friends around to calm him down a bit. Or at the very least, some soothing tea.

Add John Marston to Manly....awesome character

Quorothorn:

In fairness, I did play Mercer as a decent-but-damaged individual who was in a terrible situation when I played through Prototype: I only engaged the military when absolutely necessary, and tried to minimize civilian casualties wherever/whenever possible (which admittedly would have been easier if they didn't insist on running right in front of my tank when I'm booking down a street at 60 mph).

However, I am fairly certain that I'm in an especially small minority there (and I was less scrupulous in Hard mode, too), so good point anyway.

I suppose I'm just a terrible role player...or a misanthrope.

I actually came across a game a while back about a power-armored space marine type guy, except he was polite and actually soft-spoken. Kinda caught my attention a bit.

Shame the game sucked. And sucked hard.

*EDIT*

Oh, and if you want a very well done character that falls under the "can't do anything too well except kill", try watching Soldier.

Stars Kurt Russel as a man who was trained from birth to be a soldier, and nothing but.

Says maybe 40 words the whole film, and yet he MAKES the film. And when he does speak, his voice is very soft. And his backstory gives a good reason for him being crappy at housework. The guy was taken as a kid and raised to be a soldier, with no chance to get anything else. And yet, at the same time, he has emotions. Even if he's very poor at showing them in a normal manner.

I felt that the original Dead to Rights Jack Slate was actually a fairly balanced character. He wasn't overly muscular, had a normal sounding voice, and made genuinely funny one liners. Not only that, but was blindsided by a woman he trusted even though he shouldn't have. Of course Dead to Rights 2 just turned him into a walking pile of muscles and rage, but that's another story. Overall, I feel that the whole professional wrestler, over the top psycho man is something that needs to by and large go away. There are times when it could be appropriate, in games where all you're doing is screaming and hitting things, but in a game that's supposed to have a decent story line, the main character should not be a walking pile of muscles and rage.

Macgyvercas:
Soooooo...would Kratos be a manly man or a macho man? Because he has characteristics of both. Sure he's a dick who does things out of his own sense of vengence on those who wrong him (macho man), but he can also please the ladies to no end (manly man, apparently).

I have to stop this now. My head is hurting.

Great read though.

macho. he forced that guy in God of War 1 to do the scholarly stuff and he kills basically just for fun becuase things are too weak to stop him. Sure he can fuck aphrodite, but everything else makes him simply macho and not manly at all.

THANK YOU.

Having gone blue in the face explaining to women why being manly is different to being a dick, this has thoroughly proven my point and given me a quiet sense of satisfaction. Like a manly man would have, having saved the day, but choosing not to brag because he isn't brash or arrogant.

Just download a story from Bio-ware :P It'll save you the hassle!

Sounds like Fun Space Game is really coming along- do keep us posted (when you feel it's worth posting about)

AnarchistAbe:

InterAirplay:

snip

Had to slim down the quote, so this post wasn't wayyy too long =)

Anyway, I know what kind of character he is talking about...Marcus Phoenix. But, the fact of the matter is....I really like Marcus as a character. Before I get people saying that I am a 13 year old XBL kid who thinks that is what it means to be a real man; I am 19, and have dial-up (so no XBL). I, personally, don't want a protagonist that is vulnerable or soft; I just want a badass who blows **** up!

I don't know about anyone else, but I play video games to feel powerful (i know this says something about my psychological state, but lets not go into that right now....i'm looking at you Freud...), and not to play as the average Joe in an unaverage situation. To me, these characters are the escapism I'm looking for in games. But, it all boils down to personal taste; so there is nothing I can say to change anyone's mind, I'm simply trying to state why I, personally, like characters like Marcus Phoenix.

Fair play, good sir. Fair play. And Fenix is exempt - he actually has a gruff yet stoic human mind under all that testosterone. I just somewhat stupidly use him as a kind of benchmark based simply on how he appears.

Thrair:
I actually came across a game a while back about a power-armored space marine type guy, except he was polite and actually soft-spoken. Kinda caught my attention a bit.

Shame the game sucked. And sucked hard.

*EDIT*

Oh, and if you want a very well done character that falls under the "can't do anything too well except kill", try watching Soldier.

Stars Kurt Russel as a man who was trained from birth to be a soldier, and nothing but.

Says maybe 40 words the whole film, and yet he MAKES the film. And when he does speak, his voice is very soft. And his backstory gives a good reason for him being crappy at housework. The guy was taken as a kid and raised to be a soldier, with no chance to get anything else. And yet, at the same time, he has emotions. Even if he's very poor at showing them in a normal manner.

I thought no-one else knew about this film! I found it in some bargain-bin collection of action films I was rifling through at a friends house so we all had something to distract us from a bad hangover. It's like a flower growing out of a pot of dirt.

I'm showing this article to Bob.

As for my personal opinions, I tend to agree on everything but appearance. Maybe it was in the subtext and I missed it, or it's too obvious to be mentioned, but just in case: I tend not to judge characters by appearance... okay well I do, but not in terms of being a man versus being a man whose hiding something. To me, the question as to whether someone's macho or manly boils down to their emotional being almost solely with little relevance to how they look and their weapon choice. Gotta go.

nice read

I think the reason alot of games use Macho characters because you cant really screw it up
while a manly character has to somewhat flawed without being a dick

InterAirplay:
It's less to do with the individual characters and more to do with a mindset behind certian ones. It's just that Marcus has become a sort of catch-all reference to this "insecure unstable mindless 8 year-old with muscles and a gun" even if he is a character who is very different from that perception.

Which certain ones? Reading over this thread, I've noticed that there really aren't any examples being given of these overly macho characters and what behavior they're engaging in. Kratos is the only one I see, but even the people who bring him up seem to be excusing him. My video game collection certainly isn't full of them. So who are all of these characters that everybody is complaining about?

Complaining about there being too many macho men in games is just one of those things that has become fashionable.

I didn't get that Marcus Phoenix was a "macho man" from his character, which I figured to be something like "grizzled and somewhat disillusioned military veteran who would like nothing more than to retire and forget the things he's seen but instead has to fight another godamn war". but something about his over the top voice acting coupled with the fact that he had a set of shoulders where his neck should be made me think that this was not a character to be taken seriously. Perhaps I was being shallow there.

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