Red Dead Redemption

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Celtic_Kerr:

I feel the need to say that your use of commas just fucked my brain.

Read between the lines is all I can really say. He's not saying lets go back to the stone age, he says man has forgotten to deal with shit rather than make something that deals with it for us.

The human digestive system in the stone age was so strong, you could stop at any muddy creek, drink from it, and you wouldn't have any stomach issues. Today, if it's not "Bottled" or "Purified" it's bad for your system. I walk in the rain all the time, I don't get colds anymore, just one nasty virus per year. My friends that all use their umbrellas or stay in when it rains get 20 colds a year. Rather than deal with heat, we got air conditioners to make us comfy. Rather than deal with cold that in the past would have made us uncomfortable can kill us nowadays because of our systems. THAT is what Yahtzee means.

wolves can hunt for their own food and be self sufficient, domestic dogs, on a whole (as a basic rule) usually can't due to pampering. He's not looking at the dogs from a practical point of view, he's seeing them on a self-sufficient basis.

Sorry I guess.
Anyway, I've read it all again, but I still doesn't make much sense. If you make something to deal with shit for you, then the shit was still dealt with, right? Using air conditioners is dealing with heat the smart way. Basically what you are telling me is that the best way to deal with someone hitting you in the face with a rock is not asking him to stop or moving out of the way, but growing thicker skulls. Also, there is a reason why cavemen rarely lived past 30.
I really don't understand why Yahtzee tries to paint modern society as a bunch of stupid animals wallowing in their own filth. Is he ignorant, or is he truly a nihilistic asshole? Don't get me wrong, I like ZP. But come on, he's a funny guy who makes funny little videos. Why is he trying to shove his pseudo-intellectual ramblings down our throats?
Alright, your average dog is not a very good hunter, but can still scavenge food. That's why stray dogs are a problem.

Nice article, got very constructive on page 2.

I remember watching my character sitting at his camp's fire, every now and then, I'd scream (in my head) "cook the fucking meat, you just murdered roughly 20 wolves and I never see you eat anything".

So, I think I understand, at least, on a basic level, your idea for a game, Yahtzee.
Then again, maybe that's the point, survival is a basic level.

Shynobee:
Thankfully, it seems like your "survival mode" ideas are being implemented in Fallout: New Vegas' optional hardcore mode. So, we may yet have a game, in a desert, where survival is actually a challenge.

That's immediately what I thought of too, and if they do pull through on that promise I will be thrilled.

dnose:
I'm going to have to call "bulls**t" on Yahtzee this time. If they had the "Survival" system like he's suggesting, he would have criticized the system for taking you out of the action and out of the game similar to the way you had to take your friends bowling in the first game.

I was having the same thought. It would cause a godawful amount of inventory management.

I remember playing a game called Lost in the Blue where you were stranded on a deserted island and you had to pretty much do what you're describing. It was a pain in the ass, since you could only carry so much water (limited by the number of bottles you had) and you had to keep running home every five minutes so that you don't die. I swear, the main character was hypoglycemic or something.

Have you seen our lives?

Ambrose von Carstein:

Celtic_Kerr:

I feel the need to say that your use of commas just fucked my brain.

Read between the lines is all I can really say. He's not saying lets go back to the stone age, he says man has forgotten to deal with shit rather than make something that deals with it for us.

The human digestive system in the stone age was so strong, you could stop at any muddy creek, drink from it, and you wouldn't have any stomach issues. Today, if it's not "Bottled" or "Purified" it's bad for your system. I walk in the rain all the time, I don't get colds anymore, just one nasty virus per year. My friends that all use their umbrellas or stay in when it rains get 20 colds a year. Rather than deal with heat, we got air conditioners to make us comfy. Rather than deal with cold that in the past would have made us uncomfortable can kill us nowadays because of our systems. THAT is what Yahtzee means.

wolves can hunt for their own food and be self sufficient, domestic dogs, on a whole (as a basic rule) usually can't due to pampering. He's not looking at the dogs from a practical point of view, he's seeing them on a self-sufficient basis.

Sorry I guess.
Anyway, I've read it all again, but I still doesn't make much sense. If you make something to deal with shit for you, then the shit was still dealt with, right? Using air conditioners is dealing with heat the smart way. Basically what you are telling me is that the best way to deal with someone hitting you in the face with a rock is not asking him to stop or moving out of the way, but growing thicker skulls. Also, there is a reason why cavemen rarely lived past 30.
I really don't understand why Yahtzee tries to paint modern society as a bunch of stupid animals wallowing in their own filth. Is he ignorant, or is he truly a nihilistic asshole? Don't get me wrong, I like ZP. But come on, he's a funny guy who makes funny little videos. Why is he trying to shove his pseudo-intellectual ramblings down our throats?
Alright, your average dog is not a very good hunter, but can still scavenge food. That's why stray dogs are a problem.

He posted a thread on a sight that 3 months ago, I didn't know existed. He's not shoving anything down your throat. He's writing it, you're reading it, YOU'RE deciding that he must be shoving it down your throat, and you're getting offended. Dont' likeit? Don't read it. Don't like "Yahtzee shoving his opinions down your throat"? Stay away form his videos and and articles. Your "Moving out of the way of the rock" theory just failed, because it seems you havn't develloped the ability to dodge an issue in your life.

Yahtzee is saying humans have gone soft. We used to be able to drink swamp water, we used to be able to naturally take the heat without a problem (and without paying for an air conditioner). STand inside all day under the protection of your air conditioner, and then walk outside on a hot day and see how you can't deal with it anymore, so you can't go anywhere. Ee used to be able to survive the winter in a small hut. He's saying new innovations do the same thing, but it makes US as humans, weak. People drinking lake water can become very sick. The heat tires us out and makes us lathargic, the cold kills us easily compared to the past. He's not saying "Stand there and get your face bashed in" he's saying we used to be able to take a real beating without tapping out in the first round

Good ideas. I like most of them, although the survival/meter system would have to be very artfully implemented so as to not become annoying or absurd. A lot of games have tried to implement such a system, and generally they wound up feeling unrealistic. Either because of the way they were gauged (eat every hour or you die! Or those games where your gun needs repair every 5 minutes) or because of what they entailed your character doing: MGS3, for example, had you healing machine gun wounds with some tiny first aid kit, or carrying around cages full of trapped animals to eat later. Good luck sneaking around with those clanking cages, Snake. In both ways, the immersion in the game world was broken.

I know you, Yahtzee, would certainly be complaining about such clumsy features, were they to exist. Sadly, this is probably how it would of come out had they included it in RDR.

It's easy to make fun of other people's products Yatzee, extremely easy. I mean, you've made a career out of it (this isn't a knock by any means). It's actually quite a bit harder however to have the insight needed on why and how games convey certain situations. That's why you're one of my favorite people in the games world right now.

I enjoyed Redemption, but the simple concept you have here would have given us a much richer game. I can only hope that some people in the industry are listening to you. I honestly don't know if I can go back to Redemption now that I've tasted the much better possibility.

Ordinarily I am the first person to bare his disgust towards Neebs... However, these creators managed a complete reversal of my previous disposition in a way which can only be described as masterful! In a single episode they managed to not only flesh out Neebs' character, but offer an indirect explanation and justification towards his general douchebaggery then directly addressing Doraleous. Witnessing Neebs' oppose Ladder Guy with such unbridled loyalty speaks volumes about his actions in the previous episodes! I now realize that the ever present confrontations between Neebs and Doraleous are actually a display of Neebs' aspirations to be a mighty commander, much like Doraleous!

Jesus Christ, I think I might be willing to genuinely kill someone for that game...

Obvious hyperbole aside, I think you're following a slippery slope track when you're saying it would inevitably lead to people becoming outlaws in game. Some people would, and I think it would encourage it, but I don't think everyone would. With hunting and all that, and skillful managing of resources, you could probably get through the game with a minimum of crime.

I would shit bricks if they released this as an expansion. I'd pay for it too, though absolutely not more than 15$, and preferably 10 or less.

People that think that simply adding meters is the issue here and are drawing conclusions based upon that assumption are definitely missing the point. The game play mechanic itself is never the issue - it's always the end to which they work towards. Stamina meters in the context of this game would add a level of immersion that the game really really needed by directly utilizing the empathy players would feel towards another human that is trying to eat and not be eaten in a harsh environment, hence the entire analogy with the dog and wolf. People somehow seem to forget that this mechanic has already been implemented really fucking well in other really outstanding games like MGS3. Adding meters to games like The Sims or MH ultimately just ended up arbitrarily adding more boxes on a really long check list that the game tediously forced you to fill up before the actually fulfilling (in those cases still not really) part of the gameplay opened up, which is why comparisons between this review and the MH review being utilized to prove Yahtzee's indecisiveness are somewhat baffling.

awesomeClaw:
I love your "survival" idea! Seems like a good concept.

Better not mention to him that Monster Hunter had something very similar to that, and those training missions he hated oh-so-much was teaching him what to combine and how to find it in the field.

Doesn't it seem like the meat and herbs you pick up were MEANT to be used as food to replenish health/deadeye? As it is, they really have no use other than to complete challenges.

Speaking of deadeye, was anyone else disappointed by the later incarnations of it? The first level of dead eye was the most useful, the most visually interesting, and it didn't take control from you.

Also, the tedium of a mechanic that needs frequent attention (such as eating so as not to starve) can be leavened by rewarding the player for nurturing it (such as eating to increase health or prolong the time needed until next meal).

You should really just play STALKER :P

I TOTALLY already thought of having a hunger meter for a survival-horror game!

though I rather enjoyed RDR I think Yahtzee is on to something. Being how aside from the occasional inconvenience in the form of dying during a mission or unexpectedly getting mauled by a cougar. Once I'd mastered the controls the game began to become mind numbingly easy. If these features that yahtzee came up with were implemented it would not only potentially be a far better game it would also in all likely hood be the closest any of us will get to the old west experience.

While I do agree that a survival mechanic would have been nice, and would certainly like to see it either implemented as an option or a mod for the PC version (that is if Rockstar aren't dicks with some stupid form of DRM) my biggest problem with RDR is the world itself. Like most of the 'Open-world' games before it the only person that matters in it is you and you alone.

It doesn't feel lived in.

The survival system Yahtzee suggests seems unnecessary. In order to improve the game you need simply to follow the following steps.

1. Increase the need for money- All the mini games and sidequests would seem more worthwhile if you actually needed money for something. This could simply be achieved by getting rid of regenerating health and dead eye (making medicine and chewing tobacco actually useful). The prices of houses could be raised and weapons would have to be bought (or stolen) instead of being given out at the start of missions. Also items, as well as money, should be able to be stolen from stores and you could only shop at that store again if you paid for/ gave back the items you stole.

2. Add more RPG elements to the development of your character- At the start of the game John's accuracy and skills already seem super human. the game would seem more fulfilling if your characters abilities grew more obviously throughout the game. Accuracy and range of fire should start off fairly poor but could be increased by purchasing better fire arms and completing certain challenges(such as sharpshooter challenges). Health capacity could be increased by mixing and using plants that you find in the wilderness (aswell as sealing or purchasing pre made concoctions from stores). Dead eye level would vary depending on the quality of sleep you had (encouraging you to buy better houses and improve your camp-site). Buying better knives and bait would affect the type of animals you attract and the speed at which you skin them. Buying stronger lassos would increase your range and make breaking wild horses easier.

3. Fame and honour affect game play more obviously- I played half the game as a law abiding kiss ass and the other half as a outlaw badass. I never really felt a large difference between the two (besides from some slight changes in prices in certain places and the occasional citizen muttering something along the lines of "John Marsden is a good guy" or "John Marsden is a complete bastard" ). Your honor and fame levels should vary depending on the area you inhabit. This could easily be displayed on your map. ie. In Armadillo you have robbed from stores and killed civilians. In this town and surrounding areas you are a feared outlaw, inhabitants cower and lock themselves inside as soon as you step foot in town. Wanted posters with your face are plastered everywhere. Bounty hunters and law men track you down whilst outlaws and gang members take you under their arm, asking you to take hostages and rob trains. In Mexico however you are seen as a revolutionary hero. People praise your good deeds and you would be treated like a god in the towns you visit. Gang members would show increased hostility towards you, making gang hideouts more difficult and increasing the number of ambushes and duel challenges.

Other ways to improve the supposed disconnection of all the elements within RDR would be to add an RPG like feature to the development of your horse. You could choose to buy better saddles and shoes to increase the horses stamina. You could also steal these items from stores or hijack a horse and take them off that horse (or simply keep that horse). Carriages should also be able to be attached to your horse (stronger horses such as Kentucky saddler could carry larger carriages). Perhaps weapons and items could be stored in these carriages (imagine being able to mount a gattling gun to your wagon and travel around causing wanton destruction everywhere you go). Your horse would lose the carriage but not the upgradable items when it dies and all upgrades could be transferred to any horse that you hitch up. Maybe when you whistle for a horse whilst out in the wilderness a malnourished slow horse appears but not being able to whistle for your horse would become increasingly frustrating.

I have yet to play Red Dead, but I want to take a moment to be Captain Obvious and declare that Ben is a 10 out of 5. Thank you for existing!

And just WHAT is wrong with 3DO's Army Men franchise, Yahtzee? Please explain yourself because those games are legendary.

I don't know, while I like the proposition the Autor makes here for improving the game experience, he sounds to me like someone who is never satisfied with anything, like he forgot how to have fun, and would rather see every game to be changed in busywork.

Really good ideas Yahtzee. This is how I run a D&D game of mine, set in a sort of failed conquistadore south america. They took a third of the territory from the Mwangis and are now under the thumb of pirates and constantly fighting the wild tribes, monsters, demon worshipping cultists and coordinated native city states that remain. The players, well they are generally selfish opportunists in all this. The environment is truly dangerous and after they almost died in their first desert trek, then in their first lengthy jungle loot haul, they made sure they were ready to cross the savannah under the baking sun.

Food, water, shelter these become very important, and in the Mwangi expanse that surrounds Sargava, one is never safe. This doesn't stop them trying to use magic to get around the problem, but it is a low magic setting (ha!).

Red Dead Redemption would be better with the suggested survival option. Maybe a patch or a mod will follow, but I think we won't see it from the retarded lovers of safety.

Burnhardt:
While I do agree that a survival mechanic would have been nice, and would certainly like to see it either implemented as an option or a mod for the PC version (that is if Rockstar aren't dicks with some stupid form of DRM) my biggest problem with RDR is the world itself. Like most of the 'Open-world' games before it the only person that matters in it is you and you alone.

It doesn't feel lived in.

Yes! This is exactly why I disliked Assassin's Creed 2. In the time of the famed cities of Italy and no one is doing anything in particular.

one can't help but wonder if any of these at one point really trudged the minds of the developers while making this game. Eventually abandoning these potentially inovative ideas for the sake of appealing to the broader, more casual audience.

I think that they didnt actually want you to go killing everyone, because john marston is always talking about how he left his days of killing for fun behind him. i think the only reason you could do it is because rockstar wanted to be able to sell it to all the GTA fans who just want to shoot people on the street.

Interesting viewpoint, but it sounds like you're just trying to add a slightly different variation on the 'COUSIN! WE SHOULD GO AND GET DRUNK TOGETHER!' mechanic that so many people (including yourself i believe) bitched about to no end. It's just another way of annoying the player into abiding by its rules. As great as wild west fantasies sound of nicking pies and rustling folk off their horses sound, it just never plays that way in the game world. I'm sure people expected a different wanted mechanic in GTA for example where the police don't instantly know where you are before they've even deployed the chopper. If you add survival mechanics like hunger and shit, it'll just cause so much more irritation for gamers. God knows it pissed me off in Stalker: Call of Pripyat and indeed the Sims, which somebody mentioned much earlier on.
It also felt like the majority of the first page was just filler, whining about modernisation.

Moaning aside, i do see your point, although i often have no problem at all causing trouble - i drag people through towns for a laugh and occasionally see if i can headshot a lone bloke on a horse as i'm about to ride past him for kicks. I even kidnapped a prostitute, tied her up and put her on the horse, and dragged some poor fool out of town into some wolves to chow down upon, before placing the tied-up wench on the tracks to watch her get run over. I laughed when the achievement popped. Rockstar must have quite the sense of humour; i was only doing it to fufill my own sadistic desires. But there's a point to this tale, sometimes i'd rope up a bandit in town, and having saved the damsel i'd carry him out to the middle of nowhere and grin as i put a bullet in his frightened face. More often than not someone hears the shot and goes to tell the law; and my bounty builds up. I suppose if you just follow the missions like a robot and go from one sidequest to the other you won't have any issues with the law, but i always seemed to. Even from something as basic as accidentally running over a lawman in town when on my horse, or getting pissed off with a blackjack dealer and shooting him dead, causing everyone in the bar to whip out their guns and start shooting back as i make a break for it.

This is the true definition of the 'sandbox genre'. The freedom to do this, and to get away with it. Survival mechanics put limitations on you and your ability and freedom to play the game by forcing you to munch on one of the many ham sandwiches you undoubtedly bought out from the local general store.

I love the "survival" idea. Though I think it will actually be made in the future, I'd prefer it if it was implemented in to the RDR gameplay.

http://mycroft-woodsman.blogspot.com/2010/06/storytelling.html

Simpsons did it.

Or should I say STALKER + Oblivion Lost mod did it. Man now I'm going to reinstall it....

The "Survival Mode" does sound like it could make the game more challenging, if not for the fact that it would turn the game into a Sim. I'm guessing The Sims 3: Red Dead Dungeons & Dragons Redemption didn't quite work in the developer's meeting room.

The only game that did survival right was Morrowind. Oblivion was close but it had that fast travel system. In Morrowind you had to plan your trip and bring certain things and chose a path that wont get you killed. It was awesome. Especially the first time when you're just exploring everything for the first time. I'd like to see more games focus on that.

Survival mechanic, eh?

I know Fallout: New Vegas is trying something like that with it's Hardcore Mode, which might add more to the post-apocolyptic experiance as in those days you have to expect search throughly for food or clean water just to make it from day to day.

the only thing about it that has me concerned is that in Hardcore Mode, ammo has weight, which is something you want to be concerned about next time you decide to fight a Super Mutant.

sorry if that's going off-topic.

droppingpenny:
I don't know, while I like the proposition the Autor makes here for improving the game experience, he sounds to me like someone who is never satisfied with anything, like he forgot how to have fun, and would rather see every game to be changed in busywork.

That's a funny thing to say because when he has his games turned into busy work he complains about that. It's almost like yahtzees job to complain about things. I know technically it is but like things he will like in one game won't like in another. It's very two faced.

I really don't like this article. Last two were pretty good but this one is a bit. Well it reeks of someone who's a bit full of themselves talking from there bum. Sure he has point. But it's all chaotic neutral. I don't know. It's like one of those things where the second someone says something you know your gonna disagree and it becomes something that will spur a heated argument that will just make everyone upset with eachother. This kinda feels like a ramble so I won't go to far. I think this article is very stressful because it always brings up the element where yathzee rags on society. And being in society I don't appericate the complete lack of respect he seems to give.

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