Fallout: New Vegas

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and you pretty much described why I don't use fast travel in Fallout New Vegas/3

He got me to laugh the moment he tried to play grand theft auto as a law abiding citizen.

Loved the Wizard of Oz reference. Now I think of it, having some magic shoes which would take you flying anywhere in a matter of seconds/minutes would be so more awesome than just teleporting.
I didn't hate the teleporting in Oblivion because it easily saves time and trouble (if so, I would just ignore it), but rather because the scenario was so dull that it compelled me to fast travel. I loved my initial hours with that game, but now I barely can get myself to play it because of that.

Misho-:

HankMan:
If they had added a motorcycle for fast travel you could role-play as Mad Max. Now THAT would be an awesome game!

You sir, are a genius, that would be awesome! Making your own cars out of scrap material would certainly nail down the futuristic post apocaliptic feeling... Something like Rage or something, that would be awesome indeed and more chances to specialize and role-play in Hardcore Mode i.e. finding a constant supply of gas for your car/motorcycle.

Yes, it would also give people something to do with their ridiculously high repair skills. I mean, you can put together and make better a laser gatling gun, but you can't put a new transmission and some new wheels on a motorcycle?

Also, yes, the fast-travel is a bit of an immersion-breaker. The only saving grace it has is that you can't fast-travel until you've found the place, which means you're going to be exploring the world one way or another.

Funny story about fast-travel: I'd dressed up as one of Caeser's Legion so I could get into Cottonwood Cove for a bit of quest-related mischief. Anyways, after I was done, I fast-traveled to a different location, that was affiliated with the NRC. Apparently they're shoot first, realize we fucked up royally later. Luckily, the auto-save hadn't auto-saved after the fast-travel, so I was able to complete my quest without being caught in some sort of paradox of die, reload, die again, rinse, wash, and repeat.

Terminate421:
He got me to laugh the moment he tried to play grand theft auto as a law abiding citizen.

I'm currently playing GTA III for the first time and it's funny how suicidally idiotic all of the drivers in Liberty City are. Once I was just driving around, attempting to follow traffic laws and witnessed three crashes in two minutes. Makes those missions where you have to transport a car without crashing across town incredibly hard. If cars aren't careening into you for no reason, pedestrians have this odd habit of jumping in front of your car if you wander a bit too closely to the sidewalk. I've actually had cop cars swerve into me... then suddenly it's my fault.

or napalm a school building and pour the ashes of the children over their erect, twitching knobs for sexual release.

What, the cunt...

Anyway, please don't just puss out of reviewing Black Ops by saying it's more of the same. It is, but at the same time, it isn't.

I have actually so little self restraint that I remember downloading a mod for Oblivion that flat-out disabled fast-travel. I always start out intended to go everywhere on foot, 'cause, you know, my magical fantasy/post apocalyptic experience is more "realistic" that way, but within an hour of unlocking two locations I'm blinking all over the place. The terrain is just too damn boring. Oddly enough, I didn't have this problem in Red Dead Redemption... maybe because as much as the travel frustrated me, I was also apparently TOO LAZY to stop and pitch a campfire so I could get the option to fast travel. I think it's the ease with with the option is accessed that determines how likely I am to use it. MEH.

I actually really liked the New Vegas "review". It was just so different from what I was expecting, and it's cool that he can still have fun with his work. I giggled way too much at the nice couple who allowed him to drink out of their toilet.

Netrigan:
The use of the fast-travel system is often a clue to how much I'm enjoying a game.

In Red Dead Redemption, I only rarely used it... usually only when the game was sending me all the way to the other side of the map for some bullshit quest or in the event I just needed to buy an item not readily available in the town I was in.

I constantly used the taxi in GTA IV because driving around simply wasn't fun. Between the twitchy car handling and the occasionally protracted police chases that could stem from a simple fender bender, I took taxis virtually everywhere... which seriously spoiled the illusion when you're taking a cab to a hospital shoot-out.

Saints Row didn't have a fast travel system (apart from taking advantage of the save game function), but I never missed it. Getting from Point A to Point B was always fun and I knew any cops I acquired on the way over could be easily ditched on the other end (simple vehicular fun & games rarely got me over a one-star wanted level).

As of yet, I've not sunk my teeth into Fallout 3 (beyond getting to the Wal-Mart stand-in) and a lot of that is simple game pacing, but also trying to figure out exactly what sort of skills I should invest in early in the game, since they give me about five billion options and I have only the vaguest notion what half of them would be useful for. So far, I've not built up the enthusiasm to overcome this immersion hurdle, so I play around with games that have a faster in to, not only the action, but the point as well.

Saints Row 2 did have a fast travel system - the taxis. I ended up using it for specific things, mainly going to the airport and 'borrowing' planes. Though this was kinda because I am terrible at flying and each flight ended in a fiery death. This did add to immersion because you had to call the taxis first - plus they were disabled during missions.

I learned that not having fast travel was a good thing in Far Cry 2. People need to learn to enjoy the hike to the objective. It's sort of a build up to the climax of the mission. Games of course need to make the hike interesting, which is were Fallout New Vegas falls a little short. Both because you run what feels like so goddamn slow, and because it's mostly just huge open wastes.

I've been saying for a long time that fast travel systems gimp games.

Tiamat666:
Well..., yeah..., then..., if you don't like fast travel...

--- WARNING! MAJOR REVELATION AHEAD! ---

...why just not use it?

Because if you don't, you can never escape that little nagging feeling that you're cheating yourself and that you're being extremely inefficient. Objectively, ignoring fast travel systems is being a dumbass.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who pretended to be in a cryopod in space while waiting to fall asleep. Although trapped in the cockpit of a powered down mecha and on the control room of a self-piloting submarine have been edging that one out lately.

Very much a mirror of my own thoughts on both issues.

Playing through Fable 3 mostly all I could think was 'this is Fable 2 only with some things polished and others completely ruined'. Fun game for sure, but it was nothing new. The lack of menus and inventory screens was absolutely idiotic though.

RPG fast travel has bugged me for a while... yes I don't HAVE to use it, but the fact that it's there generally means that if you do opt for the slower walking route there is generally nothing there minus a few random encounters.

A perfect example of this is Fable 3 - there is a fast travel system in place from the begining that completely maps out the whole world and gives you the option of starting quests from said map before travelling directly to where you need to go next. Faster? Sure. However it also meant that when you actually DID travel the most you ever came across was a dig spot or two and maybe a treasure chest. Woo.

A city looks rather awe-inspiring when viewed from a distance, but once you get in for a closer look you find all its custodians staring at walls and drastically shifting personality from dialogue line to dialogue line.

I love Oblivion and Fallout 3, but you hit that nail square in the head. While I agree that fast travel is dumb, real-time travel works better in MMOs (where you can talk to other people while you wait) than in single-player games (namely, Red Dead Redemption, probably because the horse was faster).

I think you are right. But i think Fallout 3 is a step in the correct direction until the next gen can ramp up the capabilities of gaming...and then perhaps we will truly see Bethesda push the envelope.

I don't think they tried the hardest on this game...but I mean, it is bloody amazing in my opinion compared to the lions share of games. More games should attempt to push the envelope of a consoles capabilities...and I personally think thats what you are aiming for with sharp criticism. To push the industry to make better games. And good on yah for it...the industry needs it in my opinion. One less shortcut for people that get my money.

And to tell you the truth, got the same kind of respect for Bethesda for pushing its games and showing the scale that a game can have on todays consoles. Maybe it'll catch on.

Is it wrong for a company to cash in on a product with DLC content (varying size, quality and cost) to have there next installment be outstanding? ...they could impliment motion control, and perhaps more.

You have a right for your criticisms of New Las Vegas...it isn't a whole lot more than a DLC...with subtle game design changes that actually are pretty decent and can help draw a person in (more cause and effect for instance). I will lose a lot of respect for Bethesda if there next game doesn't push the envelop I must admit. Keep up the good work.

I don't like the instant map travel, but I don't think the answer is to force players to wait 20 minutes when they fly from point A to point B (When I watched a friend play WoW, he opened another game in a little window while he travelled. If you have to entertain yourself by playing a game while you're playing a game something has gone wrong with the design.)

I think the best of both worlds existed in Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics. You can click on a city to travel there, and the game speeds you along a path on the map. Encounters happen randomly (based on some stats like Luck and Wilderness Survival) along the way, bringing you into the game world again. This makes long journeys actually mean something (and made it so that you wanted to be more or less done with a town, at least for the time being, before you wandered to the next one), but it didn't force you to walk at normal speed.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Many years ago when playing the first 2D Grand Theft Auto I'd spend time role-playing as a law-abiding citizen attempting to have a relaxing Sunday drive following the rules of the road and not harming a soul.

Ahah! I thought I was the only person who did that. Everybody thought I was weird when I said I enjoy driving around, trying not to break the traffic laws, but I'll show them...actually, you're not exactly the epitome of normal, are you? Hrm. Well, it's nice to no I'm not alone, anyway.

I remember when I first got into WOW I had to link two flight points to two major cities. After that I would use the route constantly in traveling. At the second or third time, I decided to look down off the automated flying bird, and I noticed that I was flying over lava pools sacrificial alters, and saw strange creatures with little death skulls on their health box. The designers where foreshadowing an endgame zone, and by flying over it I began to wonder what was actually going on there. I wanted to level up so I could later explore it and uncover its secrets.

I partially agree that site to site flying is a time sink. It does get old, but Yahtzee is right when it does improve the sense of immersion. The level design in WoW is brilliant. Each zone has its own ecology which you begin to better appreciate when you are flying over it and seeing it broader detail. Also long flight time can result in some zones out on the fringe of the game not being visited so often which can impart the sense that you are breaking into a new frontier which adds to the sense of exploration.

Meh, I would prefer just to have a fallout game filled with zones like the first two fallouts. (that way there could be more people in the areas and more actual content per zone) I really don't need an open world at all. I actually get annoyed even with Fallouts New Vegas which liked when I'm walking/running around for a while I just felt like I should be doing something else meanwhile like walking around in the real world, lol. I also HATE vehicles, just about always. I didn't get Fallout New Vegas because it was open world though, I got it because it was a Fallout game made by Obsidian. I think it is a good game if one thinks of it as an RPG and not as an open world game. Or I like good RPG games that may fail on some open world aspects because I'm the type of loser that wants to not be himself, lol.

I hate to say this, but I think open world would work best if it had some kind of way to use the kinect or some kind of wii remote. I mean, think of how many miles even with using fast travel people walked in these open world games, (also riding a horse I think can be pretty strenuous exercise actually). I personally would like a system that allows me to walk around a fantasy world or sci fi world with my own body. I think it would be a fun way to get some actual exercise. (I'm not joking at all here... believe it or not)

I also HATE when people just call Fallout New Vegas an expansion pack or DLC or whatever. I hate fucking DLC because it makes people think OMG something has the same graphic engine and uses the same textures it has to be DLC!!!!11 I wonder if back in the 90s did people who played games make the same complain when a sequel used the same graphics such as Fallout 2, the king's quest games, etc. I much rather have more content, and the game using the same textures if it saves time and money that could be used for the rest of the game.

I confess I don't really understand not really talking about New Vegas on the basis that it's basically Fallout 3 with entirely new content. Imagine if MovieBob did that -- "_Up_ is basically _Toy Story_ with new plot, characters, themes, and settings, so I don't really need to talk about it." The faction system in New Vegas actually requires some thought into the mindset of your character (none of this simplistic am-I-good-or-evil stuff), and different characters from the factions actually come off reasonably differently -- speaking to Col. Moore, you really understand why everyone hates the NCR, but talking to Col. Hsu, you really think they want to help people. The content is really what makes this game stand out, but depressingly few reviews even seem to notice.

pfcubed313:
I can understand Yahtzee's point about not wanting to fast-travel. The journey is half the advent, Bilbo Baggins, etc.

My recommendation then is NOT FAST-TRAVELING. It's an option, not a requirement, and you just decide not to do it. I don't know, I sped-read the thread above me and I don't know if anyone pointed this out yet, but the best D&D games I've played were the ones in which the DM picked and chose which rules/systems to focus on. Free will makes everything more challenging.

This is a common recommendation and one I agree with. Unfortunately, some people are kind of dickish. They would rather not fast-travel AND not allow anyone else that option either. As long as the option is a part of the game, it will continue to get under their skin.

Yahtzee Croshaw:

I'm of the opinion that a good open-world game should feel like you're playing some kind of TV adventure serial, like Monkey Magic or the various incarnations of Pokemon. There's an overarching story and fixed events on the trail of the overall quest that the heroes are always going to be moving towards, but in between the major events come shorter, episodic adventures as the protagonists stumble upon distractions.

I might just be stocking an old fire in you, but your description sounds to me like a JRPG! Ok, there isnt so much "open-worldishness", but i believe the "feel" you described to be similar to that i felt in Final Fantasy 10 in particular.

Its quite clear from this review that Yahtzee didn't give Fallout: New Vegas a fair shake because it isn't just Fallout 3 only more. Its understandable considering the amount of games he has to play, but disregarding it on that basis is pretty unprofessional if you ask me.

It just shows a certain bias considering that many MANY games take the mechanics, engine from the previous game and update/improve the system. I mean do we consider Gears of War 2, Halo 2,3, Reach, etc. to be EXPANSION packs of previous games? I didn't enjoy Fallout 3 that much, but I love New Vegas.

Also while yes, Fast Travel isn't the best solution for traveling distances, the alternative would most likely be just some sort of vehicle load screen transport. I think whats more of a problem is the "quest compass". It makes doing quests far less interesting considering everything is laid out for the player. Just follow the maker and complete the quest.

It's pretty obvious Yahtzee is getting seriously burnt out on the storm of sequels he's been burning through for about the past couple of years. I remember Yahtzee lamenting the fact that Space Combat Flight Sims have pretty much disappeared, so I will generously plug a game that is near and dear to my heart: Evochron Mercenary. It is a damn good space combat sim, if I do say so myself.

An hour to set up Arkham? You folks aren't doing it right. Got it down to a fine art, even with all the expansions. Only takes about a day or four. I kid, I can get the game set up complete with all expansions, in about half an hour. The rest of the four days comes from trying to play the game with the difficulty at it's highest and only three players. One day we will succeed.

As for fast travel, it's annoyingly unimmersive. I enjoyed FO3, to the point I have a playthrough where I haven't used fast travel even once, and have all the locations marked on my map. Took forever. Was mind numbingly tedious at times, and had the habit of occasionally getting me killed by random things.

And as for roleplaying, well.... I just bought the Cadwallon RPG for the pretty book that it is. Game's nigh on impossible to play, but it sure does look purty next to all my other RPGs.

"Truth is, the state of gaming has been making me more and more depressed lately."
You and me both brother.

I try and keep a good look-out for damn good games that aren't monotonous and are worth playing more than once. Assassin's creed 2 was just not good enough, Red dead scraped through, but now I'm a bit bored (saving zombies for later). Games like spelunky, medieval 2, gal civ 2, left4dead and mount and blade, these have managed to keep my attention and continually entertain.

There is a lot of crap, waffle and hype out there.

Terminate421:
He got me to laugh the moment he tried to play grand theft auto as a law abiding citizen.

I did the exact same thing when I first got my hands on GTA4. Saw Niko trying to make himself a good new life in America, so I didn't wreak shit up. Just drove around slowly getting mixed up in shady activity, then you kill that loan shark and he slowly gets corrupted back to his old ways while maintaining an outlook that under all the blood and bullets, Liberty City may still hold the life he's looking for.

So, I guess that I agree completely with what Yahtzee's saying there. Also that Fo3 and Oblivion's fast travel is incredibly unimmersive, and RPGs should focus more on the details rather than huge epic worlds.
On reflection, the lack of depth to the massive world within Oblivion is probably what makes me hate it so much. You step out of the sewer, look at your map, and think "where do I want to go?" Then you fast travel to Imperial city, do something there, fast travel to Anvil or something, talk to some people, and then grow instantly bored because it's all the same thing over again with no emotion or complexity at all.

HankMan:
If they had added a motorcycle for fast travel you could role-play as Mad MaxToe Cutter. Now THAT would be an awesome game!
?

Yes that game would very awesome. Plus it'd have a less(possibly more depending on consequences/frequency of saves) frustrating way crash!

if far cry 2 taught me anything it's this, don't have a limited fast travel system when objectives are flung all over the map

i do however agree that there should have been a motorcycle in FNV, that would have been awesome

The whole reason why America got bombed in the Fallout universe was because of a resource war. That's why there are no cars in the Fallout games because they wouldn't even work and there would be nothing to fill them with. The exception of course being the Highwayman, however, that ran on energy cells and microfusion cells due to a special motor. However, if you're like me and don't just fast tarvel everywhere, you might've discovered an area called "Wrecked Highwayman" which is most liekly the same one from Fallout 2.

Also for all those wondering about horses, the radiation killed them all. Also for me there was always something to encounter in my hikes of the Maojave, and if not, just put the radio on and sing along with Marty Robbins.

In this, I have only a comment on the point about fast travel in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. True, this seems at times to be a bit of a cheat, but the two things to consider are this...

{1} There are a good number of people who actually like it and find it useful.
{2} There may not have been anything in the budget for it.

These may not seem like a good enough reason, but this is Bethesda we're talking about here, Yahtzee. They're not even the original crew who made Fallout in the first place, and they DO have bugs out the wazoo. (Okay, bugs are practically a stone-cold Fallout tradition, but that's not the point!) If you had to choose between working out a system for an actual mode of transportation or working out more bugs, which one would you honestly pick? You know very well that they'd never agree to both, so let's go for the working game first.

That said, I do have to agree that putting in an actual travel-by-something mode in the games would be nice. Heaven knows there's all these motorcycles and (tame) Bighorns in Goodsprings alone. You saying I can't zoom off into the sunset with 'em? Shame. It's something that would be nice, especially given how you actually find the highwayman from Fallout 2. Hell, with some many references to Fallout 2 in New Vegas, there ought to be something, and there isn't because they either didn't have the time or the capability somehow.

So, in short, I agree...but feel that it can't be helped yet.

I think they should have had a horse or mutant horse early on in the game but further on you could find a motor bike or something like that.

HankMan:
If they had added a motorcycle for fast travel you could role-play as Mad Max. Now THAT would be an awesome game!

Also, Just what kind of programing do they have Down Under?

Fallout: Australia
you play as Mad Max and you can make traps for the bandit gang that keep wrecking nice peoples shit up, like at the end of Mad Max 1 with the petrol in the light thing. Also, you can chase motorcycle baddies for a side quest, and maybe it could have a blind rage mode like the Scarface game has. Actually, Mad Max would just make an awesome game in itself.

There will always be role-playing as long as someone, somewhere in the world is dissatisfied with their position and status in life. Even if you did manage to make a universally happy utopia there'll still be someone who secretly longs to be a six-breasted double-cocked anthropomorphic dolphin wizard.

Stop! You'll give Grant Morrison ideas.

ChupathingyX:
The whole reason why America got bombed in the Fallout universe was because of a resource war. That's why there are no cars in the Fallout games because they wouldn't even work and there would be nothing to fill them with. The exception of course being the Highwayman, however, that ran on energy cells and microfusion cells due to a special motor. However, if you're like me and don't just fast tarvel everywhere, you might've discovered an area called "Wrecked Highwayman" which is most liekly the same one from Fallout 2.

Also for all those wondering about horses, the radiation killed them all. Also for me there was always something to encounter in my hikes of the Maojave, and if not, just put the radio on and sing along with Marty Robbins.

To quote a good friend of mine on the Highwayman

Man, that car...

I don't drive, and most of the time I have no desire to, but when I remember how awesome it was when you first got that car ... the freedom! The fearlessness! The trunk-space!

Magic.

But you could always ride a brahmin, that would be not uncool...

I'm willing to bet someone is right now working on modding NV to get that highwayman up and running again...

In related news, I know of one person who's writing their own post-ending game world complete with changes to faction powers and new quests, depending on who you sided with. Though currently all it does is lets you complete side quests you didn't do earlier.

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