The Big Picture: Maddening

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Siege_TF:
I learned in Sociology 101 that one of the ways to guage the quality of a country's people and government is how it treats it's most vulnerable; Among these are the young, the old, the infirm, and animals. In other words animal cruelty doesn't just reflect poorly upon the character of the purpotrator, but poorly on the character of his or her society and culture as a whole.

This, above any sentiment of forgiveness towards the guilty party or indefference twoards the victim is why crimes against animals should be punitive, and deserve harsh sancions. To compare, consider when suicide was a crime; it was anit-capitolistic; the person who just attempted to kill him or herself would have intentionally squandered the investment of timue, money, and effort that had society invested into that person up until that point.

I know you're not making that argument but I'd just like to point out how incredibly fucked up that argument is.

Just because society does you favors does not mean they own you. If you want to kill yourself you should be able to.

DannibalG36:
I quote: "It's just a dog."

There are worse things you can do. Bob is overreacting like a whiny schizz.

It's not that it was a dog or not, that can be relatively ignored. The point is the motherfucker beat them to death and tortured them. For fun. I think that in a case like that the "It's just an animal, dude" doesen't really hold up. Behaviour like that to any living being truly shows that the person commiting it is mentally unstable. (unless done for neccessary reasons.)

WOPR:

caiofigo:
Maybe Michael Vick should be in the next Pokemon game cover.

FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE WHO GETS IT!
**has made the joke about pokemon being about catching wild animals and having them fight to the death only to be told "DUDE, IT TEACHES YOU THAT FIGHTING MAKES YOU STRONGER!" ...and yes these are pokemon fans so they're not exactly the sharpest tools in the shed**

Oh shut up you pompous jackass. There are lots of pokemon fans who pointed out this way before you just like there's a lot of GTA fans who realize what they are playing.

Mxrz:
This is a bit much.

You got a huge double standard going here. What sets dogs apart from chickens, cows, birds, mice, squirrels, fish, etc. that we kill/eat every single day?

This isn't just killing them quickly to make meat, nor is this hunting. This is forcing dogs to fight each other in very painful ways, also torturing them. It's why we ban cockfights but not KFC.

Mxrz:

You also seem a bit misinformed about Vick and what went down. It's pretty easy to go "He tortured Dogs!' and fly off on some emotional reaction and leave it at that. Saying Vick "just throws and catches the ball" a lot is another uninformed bit. Might want to look into just how much community stuff this guy has done since coming back. He fucked up any way you cut it, and the guilt is something he'll be carrying from now on. But no, he isn't worse than fucking Hitler.

Oh God knock off the straw men, also he did charity work, lots of people do that for good PR. How much did he do before he was accused of animal abuse?

Mxrz:

The other bit. . .if we're going to take a moral stand on an NFL player . . .how about the motherfucking rapists? You cool with Roethlisberger being on the cover then? I mean, he didn't kill a dog, right? Hey, he didn't even go to prison. He must be innocent.

Roethlisberger was never convicted of rape, Vick pleaded guilty to animal abuse. See the difference?

Mxrz:

You dismiss PETA, but then you go and act exactly how you claim they do. It rings a little hollow. Lastly, if you or people don't like Madden or the NFL all that much, then why in the hell would you even care who's on the cover? That's straight up moral fascism.

Is that even a thing? Whatever he's protesting them considering Vick. He's allowed to protest and complain, he's not suggesting someone else should force them to exclude.

Mxrz:

"I Have no interest or knowledge in this, but MY beliefs shall dictate what is allowable!!!"

Holy straw men. Yeah he has no interest which is exactly why he made a video about it. He's not demanding anything.

Wow, i think you backfired bob...

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/116/1162413p1.html

this will not end well for EA, but they get what they deserve for being idiots. Im almost tempted to vote for vick, maybe it will help me get NFL 2K back.

Dr Jones:

DannibalG36:
I quote: "It's just a dog."

There are worse things you can do. Bob is overreacting like a whiny schizz.

It's not that it was a dog or not, that can be relatively ignored. The point is the motherfucker beat them to death and tortured them. For fun. I think that in a case like that the "It's just an animal, dude" doesen't really hold up. Behaviour like that to any living being truly shows that the person commiting it is mentally unstable. (unless done for neccessary reasons.)

After hearing this point made several times, i want to point out that Vicks main role was as a financier of the group. I believe he admitting to participating in killing dogs who were hurt etc, but his main thing was the money man, in fact he didnt even make any real money off of it, he was just trying to help his lowlife friends out.

To hear you guys it sounds like he was Jack the ripper. Not saying that either situation is good, but there is a grey area that a lot of people are refusing to acknowledge.

feeqmatic:

Dr Jones:

DannibalG36:
I quote: "It's just a dog."

There are worse things you can do. Bob is overreacting like a whiny schizz.

It's not that it was a dog or not, that can be relatively ignored. The point is the motherfucker beat them to death and tortured them. For fun. I think that in a case like that the "It's just an animal, dude" doesen't really hold up. Behaviour like that to any living being truly shows that the person commiting it is mentally unstable. (unless done for neccessary reasons.)

After hearing this point made several times, i want to point out that Vicks main role was as a financier of the group. I believe he admitting to participating in killing dogs who were hurt etc, but his main thing was the money man, in fact he didnt even make any real money off of it, he was just trying to help his lowlife friends out.

To hear you guys it sounds like he was Jack the ripper. Not saying that either situation is good, but there is a grey area that a lot of people are refusing to acknowledge.

Well damn, him just helping his friends out really makes it alot better. /sarcasm.

But srlsy i do get your point, but just claiming him to be the money man still is a terrible accusation. That's like being the head of a mob, you ordered the hit, but never did them yourself, doesen't really make it less horrible, does it?

I don't agree with what Vick did but hey, if people want to see him on the cover of a game then why shouldn't they? That stuff's in the past and refusing to put a guy on the cover of a video game isn't going to change anything. What, are dogs going to walk into a game store and get offended? I'm not saying that we should put this guy on the cover, I'm just saying that I don't really care if they do - particularly if it's because he's playing well.

i dont know why people pay $60 for something they could easily do in their back yards with friends. i cant cast rewind time and thats why i play video games

It's actually the perfect storm that is getting him on the cover.

1. You have those that really like him and want him on the cover voting for him.
2. You have those that hate him and want him to break his leg like "The Curse" did to him in '04(?) when he was on the cover.
3. You have those that hate EA Sports/Madden that want him to win and it to be a PR nightmare that will somehow end the exclusive contract between EA and the NFL.

This contest was over before it started! lol

Personally I just don't think anybody should be on the cover twice. There's enough other good players to pass the honor around.

So what makes a man redeemable? Certain crimes cannot be forgiven, but I have seen the public eye accept people for doing much worse things.

Not defending him though, I don't even think he should be playing football anymore. He should still be in jail. I just disagree with the fact that something like this is unredeemable for all eternity.

Zacharious-khan:
i dont know why people pay $60 for something they could easily do in their back yards with friends. i cant cast rewind time and thats why i play video games

You have no idea how much I agree with this point.

Zacharious-khan:
i dont know why people pay $60 for something they could easily do in their back yards with friends. i cant cast rewind time and thats why i play video games

I don't know about you, but I don't know 2 teams worth of people who are all capable of playing football on a professional level, and I'm not capable of such feats either. Actually, I know zero people who are capable of playing football on a professional level, exactly the same number of people that I know are capable of casting rewind time.

Not to mention syncing up all their schedules would be nightmarish.

Let me be blunt, what Michael Vick did was the kind of thing you hear about seriel killers doing before moving up to human beings. I think if anything Bob understated the case about this guy, because really he wasn't torturing the animals to death for gambling profits, but because he was a sadistic jerk.

He ran a dog fighting ring, but apparently his torture was conducted for the purposes of scaring the other dogs to greater ferocity, or so he said, or to punish them for underperforming when they weren't killed in the ring.

I'm pretty much anti-PETA and animal-rights extremism myself. My position on such things is pretty much identical to Bob's, and that includes things like medical testing on animals. Yes medical testing on animals might be "torture" but it's done for a constructive purpose, and in lieu of other alternatives. Michael Vicks did his thing just because he liked to inflict pain on helpless animals with little actual gain from it.

I mean, to put things into perspective, the animal fights are bad enough, but in getting rid of an underperforming or injured animal, there is no reason to torture it to death. I mean he could have put them down humanely. Even within the context of his other crimes he was a bloody monster about this.

When it comes to celebrities, the whole issue of "did their time" becomes a tricky subject, since your looking at people being promoted as icons. It's not like some guy getting out of jail and heading back out to lead a quite life of obscurity. Vicks, shouldn't be being promoted as anyone's icon under these circumstances.

That said, EA is a business, and the thing to consider is that if enough people support Vicks to get him the cover anyway, I think that says as much, if not more, about humanity as it does about the company in question. The fact that something like this can be excused just because the guy is a good ball player.

While it was NBA as opposed to NFL, I honestly think these acts made Vicks worse than Dennis Rodman even after all his antics, and I don't even think Michael Vicks is as good a player in his sport as Rodman was in his (Rodman is like the patron saint of Rebounds). I really think it's messed up that they let him return to playing pro-ball at all knowing the kind of exposure he was going to get, and the message it was going to send.

Nautical Honors Society:
So what makes a man redeemable? Certain crimes cannot be forgiven, but I have seen the public eye accept people for doing much worse things.

Not defending him though, I don't even think he should be playing football anymore. He should still be in jail. I just disagree with the fact that something like this is unredeemable for all eternity.

When a person commits a crime as terrible as Vick did, there are some privileges they can earn back, and some they can not. After many years in jail, he can once again join society and the outside prison world. He can get a job, find someone to love him, work towards his goals, etc.

I don't think anyone who has tortured and murdered animals should ever be handed a contract to play a sport they love and earn millions of dollars while doing it. That is a luxury Vick has proven he is not worthy of having.

Mechanix:

Nautical Honors Society:
So what makes a man redeemable? Certain crimes cannot be forgiven, but I have seen the public eye accept people for doing much worse things.

Not defending him though, I don't even think he should be playing football anymore. He should still be in jail. I just disagree with the fact that something like this is unredeemable for all eternity.

When a person commits a crime as terrible as Vick did, there are some privileges they can earn back, and some they can not. After many years in jail, he can once again join society and the outside prison world. He can get a job, find someone to love him, work towards his goals, etc.

I don't think anyone who has tortured and murdered animals should ever be handed a contract to play a sport they love and earn millions of dollars while doing it. That is a luxury Vick has proven he is not worthy of having.

Yea I know I said he shouldn't be playing football anymore, but I think there should be a point sometimes in his life where he is forgiven.

My dad and I were just talking about this the other day. He wanted to buy a sports game and I told him to just buy an older game because they're the same thing every year, minus the stat changes for the teams, and he would get it cheaper that way lol.

Well, Bob, you know the end of the world is coming. This is just another step towards the apocalypse.
Michael Vick 2011... Donald Trump presidency 2012... end of the world.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/madden2012cover

Looks like Vick is one of two finalists for the cover.
Bob, even though it seems the universe hates you, take it to heart that I/we here do not. So cheer up fella.

Mechanix:

Nautical Honors Society:
So what makes a man redeemable? Certain crimes cannot be forgiven, but I have seen the public eye accept people for doing much worse things.

Not defending him though, I don't even think he should be playing football anymore. He should still be in jail. I just disagree with the fact that something like this is unredeemable for all eternity.

When a person commits a crime as terrible as Vick did, there are some privileges they can earn back, and some they can not. After many years in jail, he can once again join society and the outside prison world. He can get a job, find someone to love him, work towards his goals, etc.

I don't think anyone who has tortured and murdered animals should ever be handed a contract to play a sport they love and earn millions of dollars while doing it. That is a luxury Vick has proven he is not worthy of having.

May I ask why? Football is a job to him so why shouldn't he be allowed to do it? I mean we all have valiud reasons to not go out drinking with him but it hardly helps with rehabilitation if he is made into a second class citizen.

Ultimately what he did has come out of the judicial system and now is between him and his conscious.

Father Time:

I know you're not making that argument but I'd just like to point out how incredibly fucked up that argument is.

Just because society does you favors does not mean they own you. If you want to kill yourself you should be able to.

I'd hate to derail the thread, but that's bebatable, becuase it's regarded as a symptom of some greater problem, like mental illness (say... Depression), which is why the attempt is not illegal anymore. This, regardless of the fact that you can still get locked up somewhere warm and comfortable if you make a habit of trying, which, again, is a vast improvement over cold and wet, which was a way of summarizing the best examples of such institutions as recently as fifty years ago, with the worst involving starvations, beatings, and electro shock torture.

That's rather the point I was trying to make; at one point in time North America, and the states in particular was so fanatically devoted to Capitolism that what is currently regarded as a symptom of mental illness was once a crime (there was also a cold war with the Russians). NA society however has evolved since then into stuff that's not as stern but more enlightened, as it treats the ill (one of those vulnerable classes I mentioned, along with animals) with greater regard and respect, and the reason that animal cruelty should be treated extremely seriously.

P.S.
Also why religion and government should stay the hell away from one another; the good old days weren't really so good, and you can't have an enlightened society that practices public stoning.

MovieBob you are my hero :D

Ahhh nice palate refresher after that 'Jimquisition' thing. Bob's tone of voice isn't grating, the picture references are spot on, and above all, no offense but we don't have to see Bob's face XD.

On the topic at hand, agreed to the fullest, same goes for Bullfighting and Cockfighting.

maninahat:

I heard dogs are delicious. Does that count as justified? Perhaps you could try justifying eating beef to a cow loving Hindu. All I'm saying is that if you are prepared to say "no justification whatsoever", then you should live by that creed with all animals, become a vegan, stop wearing leather etc. Apologies if you already do all of that.

I'm afraid that you've misunderstood the main thrust of my argument. If you need protein and your only potential source is canine, go right ahead, you've got my blessing. However, that animal should be killed as humanely as possible, and nothing wasted from its carcass. The 'no justification whatsoever' was concerning the torture and murder of those for whom you are responsible. I realize that isn't particularly clear in the last sentence, but it's what I meant.

I think I could never bring myself to eat one of my own animals, but I don't know - starvation can necessitate previously unthinkable acts (see the rugby team which crashed in the Andes and ended up eating corpses). My point is that killing animals simply as recreation seems wrong, and all the more so if they are beholden to you.

Death is a frequent part of our relationship with animals, it has been all through our evolution and will almost certainly continue to be so. What I am saying is that the death should not be without NEED, and without that any justification falls apart. I realise that I could live on beans and rice for the rest of my life too and so the fact that I eat meat and give this argument is indeed hypocritical. But hey, I'm human. I take, but I try to give as much back as I can and make the passing of any animals under my care as straightforward and un-stressful as possible.

The sad thing is that it appears to me that Vick is going to win, it's in the finals and he's against some running back from Cleveland that I've never heard of.......

everyone go and vote for him, Peyton Hillis i think was his name, Vick shouldn't win.

hopefully Peyton Hillis will pull a Mojang.

Couldn't agree with you more Bob. It's not a question of forgiveness, it's a question of being worthy of such an honor as to represent his sport to the masses through being it's "spokesman" by association on the game box. He certainly does not deserve that honor.

rddj623:
Couldn't agree with you more Bob. It's not a question of forgiveness, it's a question of being worthy of such an honor as to represent his sport to the masses through being it's "spokesman" by association on the game box. He certainly does not deserve that honor.

Does "worthiness" matter here ? It's EA game. They are doing it by voting. So it is quite easy to see who should win. I would be quitye hesitant about making EA the arbitrator of sporting ambassadors

I'm with you on this one, Bob. 1000000000%
I highly dislike dogs, but I doubt I would ever go out of my way to harm one just for the hell of it. Why do that when there are so many deserving people I could do that to?

Look Mr. Chipman, I'm not sure if this is the approach you want to take because it sounds pretty ass backwards to me. Quite frankly, this is one of those other things where I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Because look, dogs were used by slave owners to track runaway slaves. Dogs were used by racist white police officers to intimidate black Civil Rights marchers in the South. And while many white men take great pride in killing animals around the world, and keep heads as "trophies," people like you want to kill Michael Vick for fighting them? It's questionable to say the least.

I just might argue that you're overlooking this whole race issue, you may want to take a harder look into the subject and perhaps revise episode 23.

Are you real, strangely polite and random internet dweller? took some of the themes repeated throughout the entire thread and gave them a unique spin, im really impressed, no condescension or sarcasm intended.

*gets torches and pitchforks and storms towards micheal vick's house* anyone want to join?

M Rotter:
Are you real, strangely polite and random internet dweller? took some of the themes repeated throughout the entire thread and gave them a unique spin, im really impressed, no condescension or sarcasm intended.

It's isn't that rare of an occurence here on the Escapist my good sir. It is after all the last bastion of human intelligence on the internet.

Ps. Please excuse my bad English, I am not a native speaker.

Peyton Hills won!!!

We did it everybody!

Michael Vick is NOT on the cover of Madden 12!

Bravo Bob, the man doesnt deserve that cover even if its a cover to an overpriced dlc.

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