Jimquisition: The Positive Side of Mass Effect 3's Ending Drama

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CarlMinez:
How does fans creating internet-drama over an ending to a RPG title indicate that the gaming community is growing up? I would say it's rather the other way around. There is something I'm missing here...

You got it the other way around.

It means gaming has matured enough to cause people into childish behaviour.

Which I don't think that the ME3 complaints are. I think the complaints are very reasonable.

Arkham Asylum's ending boss fight wasn't really bad. It was just a generic, boring, and predictable ending. Average, basically. But what made it forgiveable was that right after that they told us everything that happened: Joker and the other villians were locked up, security's put back in place, the titan monsters are fixed, and batman flies off to save somebody else, job well done.

Imagine, if you will, that the game ended right when Joker transforms into his own weird-ass titan thing: Not only has Batman not won, you're left with more questions than answers.

THAT'S what annoys people: that we don't get a definitive ending. DEFINITIVE, not good.

(Also, the Retake Mass Effect movement has raised massive amounts of cash for charity. Sure, protesting the ending of a game ain't saintworthy but they're doing it in the best method possible: by raising tens of thousands for charity)

I laughed so hard when he was growling out that Sonic Plush Toy

HalfTangible:
(Also, the Retake Mass Effect movement has raised massive amounts of cash for charity. Sure, protesting the ending of a game ain't saintworthy but they're doing it in the best method possible: by raising tens of thousands for charity)

Personally, it strikes me as emotional blackmail. Can't win the argument through the merits of your position? Try to make people feel bad about criticizing you instead.

DrVornoff:

HalfTangible:
(Also, the Retake Mass Effect movement has raised massive amounts of cash for charity. Sure, protesting the ending of a game ain't saintworthy but they're doing it in the best method possible: by raising tens of thousands for charity)

Personally, it strikes me as emotional blackmail. Can't win the argument through the merits of your position? Try to make people feel bad about criticizing you instead.

So now you're criticizing them because they're raising money for charity that's reaching into thousands upon thousands of dollars. -.- Gonna criticize them for adopting puppies, too?

...

That WAS emotional blackmail =P

Joke aside: Nobody's going to listen to the argument's merit because everybody is just assuming 'oh well they're just entitled to their happy ending'. So they're expressing their displeasure in a way that makes it clear they're not just 'entitled, angry whiners' (yes, i have seen that used).

My Shepard doesnt give a shit about some random child, hes the renegade-est Renegade there is!!! If you bother to make sociopath dialogue options for me to use, then why just discard that and make Shepards pathetic emotions drive the entire story. Why would he be having nightmares and visions about something that means absolutely nothing to him? makesnosense.

Thats all ive really been concerned with in regards to Mass Effect 3... i could squeeze a paragraph about how James and the new Ashley's appearance display the lack of customization available to you, and flaunts it in your face. "Look at me, im allowed to look like this and you cant, nah-nah-na-nah-nah... im so pretty :D". People were similarly annoyed that you could never play as any of the alien races IIRC, but the fact that the story didnt allow for that made that acceptable.

errr... but yeah, i havent actually played ME3 beyond the demo, hearsay and these forums, so what do i know? ...but i dont think im being irrational there... you cant allow somebody to choose to be evil/nasty/whatever throughout 2 entire games, and then make him CEO of the NSPCC in the next.

You know, I complained about little things in the previous 2 games. Like how I enjoyed the vehicle sections and the shooter mechanics (eg not running out of ammo)in ME1. Or how ME1 could have done with some better terrain generation.
But I never said I'd abandon the franchise over those or even got that upset about them. Also the ending to ME1 was grate, the ending to ME2 was even better so I expected something at least on par in ME3.
I guess what I'm saying is that not everyone who's miffed about the ending is some raving mad fan who wouldn't be satisfied with anything but there exact interpretation.

I also am not going to let the games ending retroactively ruin my enjoyment of the rest of the game. It always annoys me when people get stuck on small crap like that, and it is only the last 10min of a 60-80hr game.

Interesting interpretation of the situation though.

HalfTangible:
Joke aside: Nobody's going to listen to the argument's merit because everybody is just assuming 'oh well they're just entitled to their happy ending'. So they're expressing their displeasure in a way that makes it clear they're not just 'entitled, angry whiners' (yes, i have seen that used).

If people have something intelligent to say, I'll hear them out. It's the overblown, hyperbolic reactions I have a problem with because it's once again gamers playing into the stereotypes. Those people can and should be mocked.

artanis_neravar:

KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life:

artanis_neravar:
Um...no, the majority of the people upset loved the game, and believe it was a great game, up until the end. But other than the end most people felt it was an exceptional game.What games did a flip the ending switch other than Deus Ex? Not Bioshock, or Fable or Fallout

Oh bugger. The other two Deus Exes, Singularity, Broken Steel Jade Empire and KotOR all count as well, funny enough. As well as Fallout 1 & 3's core game. Also, did you not play Fable? It happens twice in The Lost Chapters.

And many other games have the variation where it blatantly asks "Would you like to help this woman, or suck her dry in the name of your evil vampiric powers?", like Bioshock or inFamous, a few times over the course of the game (and that scenario is straight out of Darkwatch, another example of both).

I actually like all of the games I listed (other than Invisible War), and don't begrudge them for having this kind of mechanism, but I do begrudge lies, and I do begrudge watching $250 get wasted over the course of 15 minutes.

I meant Deus Ex as a series. I'm fairly certain you don't choose anything in the end of Kotor, it gives you the ending based on your alignment. Never played Jade Empire. None of the others are actually hit a switch, they are all natural extensions of the game. There is a difference between "Flip the ending switch" and having a choice at the end of the game, that is an extension of everything that has happened

No, at the end of KotOR, without spoiling it, you can just bugger your alignment and do the other thing.

The problem isn't that you actually flip a switch/smash a microwave/interact with a device to pick the ending, it's that the examples I give are just binary choices. Nuke the orphans or kiss their cheeks. The only game that I think was improved by this was the Bard's Tale (a freakin' fantastic game, I'll have you know), just because the whole game was taking just as much piss as the ending.

The reason Mass Effect 3 hurt so much more than Singularity or Darkwatch was that there was actual depth to its binary choices, clear narrative and gameplay implications to your actions, and then the ending hit.

I don't think Lost is the right analogy. I think the Soprano's ending is much more apt.

Therumancer:

SickBritKid:
Jim, you're full of shit if you're thinking that it's arrogant that the petition for better endings is called "Retake Mass Effect."

The fact that you basically voice the opinion "It's Bioware's work, so their vision is what matters" when they make VIDEO GAMES, which are about satisfying the CUSTOMER...

As I said in my rather large post (among other, more important things), while it sucks when a TV show blows it's ending, it doesn't actually cost the viewer anything but time, even a universally reviled ending does minimal damage. When a movie comes out that just generally blows chips, customers WILL demand their money back and theaters will return it, assuming that are a large number of complaints (ie a single person complaining about a movie they have already seen will be dismissed). With a video game, you have invested $60 on average per installment of a game, and there is no way to recoup that investment if you wind up being dissatisfied with it. Right now the ending of ME3 is borked enough to really ruin the entire experience up until that point, if that was the end of a movie, people would be justifiably be demanding their money back, and in these numbers they would probably get it. Not so with EA/Bioware.

As I pointed out, I think Jim is overly relying on the belief that no ending will satisfy all fanboys, and that no matter what happens people will complain. With an ending that is at least adequete you might see some fan outcry, but nothing on this level, and even most of those fans will admit that it was okay but they would have preferred things to go differantly. In the case of ME3 this is a situation where the ending is almost universally reviled, rather it's that small but vocal minority (Biodrones) who are defending it, rather than the other way around... and that's a big problem.

Now, if EA doesn't plan to do a differant ending that will make most of the fanbase at least content, which is incidently NOT unprecedented as demonstrated by shows like "Firefly" or perhaps more accuratly "Farscape", it should arguably offer to buy back copies of Mass Effect 3, or perhaps more fairly given the episoding nature of the series, copies of all three games in the trilogy, at full retail price. Much like a movie ticket being refunded after massive outcry over a crap movie. Of course when your looking at a game that will probably see a million returns that is going to cost them 60 to 180 million dollars depending on whether it's the entire trilogy or not, and they aren't liable to do that under any circumstances.

I think Jim happens to be wrong here (ie I agree with you, though perhaps not for entirely the same reasons) but as he said in his video, he seems to be set to ignore any demands he consider changing his opinion... errr the ending, so it's largely irrelevent. :)

I don't get Jim's whole "well, no ending is gonna satisfy EVERYONE" schtick. We NOT SHIT not every ending's gonna satisfy everyone. That's why Bioware explicitly promised that the ways ME3 would end would be numerous and branching, factoring in your decisions throughout the trilogy as much as your decisions during the final minutes. That way, if you wanted to play your Shepard as a Renegade bastard who would selfishly save his own skin at the expense of the galaxy, you could do that. Or if you were a self-sacrificing Paragon who would ALSO try and save his own skin, that could happen as well.

But instead, Bioware gave us three bags of shit to choose from, but one bag of shit have some chocolates mixed in in the form of Shepard being able to survive...

DrVornoff:

SickBritKid:
Jim, you're full of shit if you're thinking that it's arrogant that the petition for better endings is called "Retake Mass Effect."

The fact that you basically voice the opinion "It's Bioware's work, so their vision is what matters" when they make VIDEO GAMES, which are about satisfying the CUSTOMER...

I this one of those obnoxious, "The customer is always right!" things? Because no, you really aren't.

...really? The guy/girl who pays a significant amount of THEIR money for a product that is supposed to satisfy THEM isn't right?

So you're telling me that if I purchase Mass Effect 3 expecting a great experience and a satisfying conclusion that I should just take it up the ass?

SickBritKid:
...really? The guy/girl who pays a significant amount of THEIR money for a product that is supposed to satisfy THEM isn't right?

So you're telling me that if I purchase Mass Effect 3 expecting a great experience and a satisfying conclusion that I should just take it up the ass?

Did I actually say any of that? And what is with this obsession with anal rape? There are other bad things in life that can happen to you. Not every misfortune you befall has a homoerotic subtext. Jesus...

And if you'll get over yourself for five minutes, think about the fact that you are saying that the customer is always right and their demands should be catered to every single fucking time. No. Sometimes the customer is wrong. If you can't articulate yourself about why you are dissatisfied with your purchase without falling back on a bullshit line of reasoning like, "The customer is always right!" then I have no fucking sympathy for you.

This video was fucking nonsense.

ME3 fans aren't angry because the game didn't end to their specific tastes. They are mad because 5 years of investment in a franchise was pissed on by a developer more interested in peddling DLC at the end of the game than creating an ending that made sense or in any way validated any of the players choices or struggles.

It was a horseshit conclusion on every level, ruining the franchise, and the "fanboys" are not reacting in a childish way. They're reacting much like Star Wars fans did, true, but THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE UPSET.

Kanatatsu:
They're reacting much like Star Wars fans did, true, but THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE UPSET.

So you're saying that some fans are acting like apes, but it's okay because this time it's different?

And ruin the franchise? Please. If they had fun with everything up until the ending, does the ending magically make that time you spent enjoying it go away? That's part of Jim's point. All this "RUINED FOREVARRR" nonsense is just that: nonsense.

If you didn't like the ending, that's a shame. But don't act like the time you spent having fun is now retconned out of existence because of that. Show a little perspective please. When I am not the most cynical, defeatist pessimist in the room, you really need to take a step back and think about what you're saying and doing.

DrVornoff:

Kanatatsu:
They're reacting much like Star Wars fans did, true, but THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO BE UPSET.

So you're saying that some fans are acting like apes, but it's okay because this time it's different?

And ruin the franchise? Please. If they had fun with everything up until the ending, does the ending magically make that time you spent enjoying it go away? That's part of Jim's point. All this "RUINED FOREVARRR" nonsense is just that: nonsense.

If you didn't like the ending, that's a shame. But don't act like the time you spent having fun is now retconned out of existence because of that. Show a little perspective please. When I am not the most cynical, defeatist pessimist in the room, you really need to take a step back and think about what you're saying and doing.

I'm not saying anyone is acting like an ape, including the vast majority of jilted Star Wars fans.

And yes, I think if unchanged the series is ruined forever, particularly in terms of its future earning potential (which is what Bioware/EA should care about).

I have plenty of perspective, thanks.

The wonderful issue here, that Ole Jimmy boy misses - is the fact not that the fanclub wanted a better ending or some space fuzz or lollies in space, its the point that an Executive Producer promotes this product as if it was going to be the end all and be all - with input by the end user, thus discarding it at the last moment.

Instead we get a great game that at the end turns into a steaming pile of dog turd (thus cheapening the moment, like happytime at the local brothel and you end up with herpes).

Jim you say that we are mad raving Fan kids, all grown up and now wanting a diet of lean protein rich Game Developers who we have somehow devoted our meaning to.
Erm then don't go waving around your fanboy Wooden Chainsword of the 40K variety.
You Ultramarines Fan boy you.

Okay back on topic.
You promote something - you then have to deliver on what you promoted (Duke Nukem delivered its turds), or you get screwed - don't make up the artistic license BS, cos that don't float.
End of Story.

Plus I want my space tank back........

Kanatatsu:
And yes, I think if unchanged the series is ruined forever,

If you're going to let a bad ending ruin the good times you had, then I have no sympathy for you.

DrVornoff:

SickBritKid:
...really? The guy/girl who pays a significant amount of THEIR money for a product that is supposed to satisfy THEM isn't right?

So you're telling me that if I purchase Mass Effect 3 expecting a great experience and a satisfying conclusion that I should just take it up the ass?

Did I actually say any of that? And what is with this obsession with anal rape? There are other bad things in life that can happen to you. Not every misfortune you befall has a homoerotic subtext. Jesus...

And if you'll get over yourself for five minutes, think about the fact that you are saying that the customer is always right and their demands should be catered to every single fucking time. No. Sometimes the customer is wrong. If you can't articulate yourself about why you are dissatisfied with your purchase without falling back on a bullshit line of reasoning like, "The customer is always right!" then I have no fucking sympathy for you.

If there's a customer uproar on THIS level of outrage and anger, then there's something wrong with your product, no ifs ands or buts. In that case, the customer is definitely always right, as continued dissatisfaction(like, for instance, the BS with TOR and DA2 from Bioware culminating in the ending controversy of ME3) can lead to loss of customer loyalty to your product.

And the anal rape analogy is a pretty common figure of speech, genius...

DrVornoff:

Kanatatsu:
And yes, I think if unchanged the series is ruined forever,

If you're going to let a bad ending ruin the good times you had, then I have no sympathy for you.

You missed the point.

The series is ruined on a go-forward basis. This has nothing to do with the good times I had--it has to do with EA and Bioware shooting themselves in the foot by eviscerating a lucrative franchise.

Hey Jim, you know why I'm happy about the "drama?" I'm happy because, now more than ever, gamers are starting to realize the widespread impotence of gaming journalists like you.

Really petty but... I miss his old sunglasses. Not that I could ever have a problem with seeing more of his Godlike visage. Jim standing with supreme authority at His lectern with matching flag, suit, tie and glasses made my bowels quake in righteous fear.

Forgive me Jim, for my ignorance of Your Holy ways.

*puts on hairshirt*

i enjoyed the ending to arkham asylum, i CRIED at the end of lost, it was perfect for me. the ending of mass effect 3 was not. but im starting to wonder, why is the reaction so different between critics and the fans?

Oh, Bioware - you got me. You got me emotionally invested in a multi-year spanning franchize just to rub a cheap, rushed, phoned-in conclusion ona epic into my face, teasing "You payed your money already, what will you do now?"

You got me Bioware.
But regarding Dragon Age 3 - I hope you spend hundreds of millions of dollars into making it. Because [sarcasm] I can just see people making a line around the block to pay for the priviledge of seeing non-rushed, completely accounting for all the previous decisions and inspired conclusion to THIS epic [/sarcasm]

Yeah...

...no, it's not really a great accomplishment for gaming when Bioware's bad writing is making them famous. And hailed as great artists in the gaming media in general.

By the way, here are suggestions on subjects for shows you can do the next time:
-A great show with intelligent commentary.
-Something with genuine interest in a subject, any subject.
-An informed criticism of a game.
-Something interesting about a game.
-A commentary that doesn't actively seek to establish every single negative gamer myth.
-A show that doesn't insult people's intelligence.
-Thoughts about what reviews should be like, other than a vehicle to shovel out words and get paid.
-A show that doesn't treat the current gaming media tropes as eternal truth.

...not that I will ever check back to see if you don't make them. But I'm just that helpful anyway.

RoseArch:
It's like Peter Molyneux was helping BioWare in making and marketing the game.

Fuck me, that actually makes sense. QUICK, SOMEBODY AUDIT BIOWARE'S PAYROLL.

Am I the only person in this world who thinks that this huge campaign of whining against the ending has the same basis as the campaign of trolling Jennifer Hepler?
Tons of people are angry at Bioware, it's the hip thing for the retards on 4chan and reddit and other "kewl" websites.
I remember the process, how it all went.
First, people complained about the existence of story mode.
Second, itt was the SLAB BULKHEAD joke with Vega.
Then, people started making fun and complaining about the quality of the running animation.
Then they complained about the gay romance option in ME3.
Then they complained about Tali's portrait being a photoshopped stock image.
Then the ending came , the climax of a long series of trolling and angry butt devastation. This one was successful because it worked as a legitimate complain more than anything else.

This has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with imbecile masses of nerds with no spine. The difference between the LOST whiners and Mass Effect whiners is that no one asked for an edit LOST season finale (or at least no one considered it seriously, like they do with the game).

SickBritKid:
If there's a customer uproar on THIS level of outrage and anger, then there's something wrong with your product, no ifs ands or buts. In that case, the customer is definitely always right, as continued dissatisfaction(like, for instance, the BS with TOR and DA2 from Bioware culminating in the ending controversy of ME3) can lead to loss of customer loyalty to your product.

Then walk away and stop bitching like 5-year-old who just got told he can't have ice cream until he finishes his dinner. There are people who have been able to express dissatisfaction without sounding like a bunch of meth-addled children. Why can't you be one of them?

And the anal rape analogy is a pretty common figure of speech, genius...

I know that, sparky. Point stands.

Kanatatsu:
You missed the point.

The series is ruined on a go-forward basis. This has nothing to do with the good times I had--it has to do with EA and Bioware shooting themselves in the foot by eviscerating a lucrative franchise.

Yawn! No, I got your point, what little there was to get. Go outside, talk to another human being, go see a movie, and maybe you'll realize that this is not the tragedy you imagine it to be.

DrVornoff:

SickBritKid:
If there's a customer uproar on THIS level of outrage and anger, then there's something wrong with your product, no ifs ands or buts. In that case, the customer is definitely always right, as continued dissatisfaction(like, for instance, the BS with TOR and DA2 from Bioware culminating in the ending controversy of ME3) can lead to loss of customer loyalty to your product.

Then walk away and stop bitching like 5-year-old who just got told he can't have ice cream until he finishes his dinner. There are people who have been able to express dissatisfaction without sounding like a bunch of meth-addled children. Why can't you be one of them?

And the anal rape analogy is a pretty common figure of speech, genius...

I know that, sparky. Point stands.

Kanatatsu:
You missed the point.

The series is ruined on a go-forward basis. This has nothing to do with the good times I had--it has to do with EA and Bioware shooting themselves in the foot by eviscerating a lucrative franchise.

Yawn! No, I got your point, what little there was to get. Go outside, talk to another human being, go see a movie, and maybe you'll realize that this is not the tragedy you imagine it to be.

Ahh yes the "you're not cool, go outside" response. Fuck off.

Kanatatsu:
Ahh yes the "you're not cool, go outside" response. Fuck off.

No, it's the, "You're overreacting, go do something else and think with a cooler head," response. Seriously, go do something else for a day or two without ever once thinking of Bioware and you'll see that this is not the atrocity so many gamers are making this out to be.

Then walk away and stop bitching like 5-year-old who just got told he can't have ice cream until he finishes his dinner. There are people who have been able to express dissatisfaction without sounding like a bunch of meth-addled children. Why can't you be one of them?

I didn't know voicing my opinion meant I sounded like a meth-addled kid...

*facepalm*

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