The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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aww at first i thought this would be an episode about people wanting Lara Croft to get raped... ah well. BTW, way to be sexist Bob, i am a female and i watch your show, silly to assume that someone watching your show is a male by saying these male bodies are for "YOU" not THEM ie the females. blah! And the truth is, females really rather like playing female characters that are sexy, i know i do, in the same way that males like playing male characters that are buff.

I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole Feminist Frequency nonsense. Why is every "journalist" so quick to defend her and demonize the reaction against her? She went and spammed places like 4 chan to get that reaction. It's like saying that hornet's are evil and to prove your point you take a baseball bat to a hornet's nest. And when the hornet's sting you, you say "see! look! the hornet's stung me, they're evil!"
Or how about another example, take a Koran to a radical Muslim country, go to a busy street take a dump on it and set it on fire and then act shocked when someone puts a brick through your skull.
She purposefully stirred up this controversy and goaded idiots into the reaction and then pretended to be a victim.

And why isn't anyone addressing the insult to gamers as a whole? We criticize movies and television for having a mindset that games are still in the 80's with high scores and 8-bit sounds. And when we see people just mindlessly bashing controllers we roll our eyes. Yet when she's like oh I'm a gamer and I understand this topic, but she's doing the same mindless mashing pretending to play a videogame (on a controller that's clearly off) we don't bat an eyelid? That's pretty insulting to the audience to think that they're so stupid they won't notice that you're faking it.

And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

medv4380:
The entire sexism argument should be flatly ignored.

No progress is ever made and when push comes to shiv the only people left participating are the Women who want all me to die and the Men who think of women as Objects.

The biggest problem with the entire argument is that it is too subjective. The latest Sex Symbol in Japan is Nintendos Office Lady in their ads. Cultural boundaries are so erratic on what would be sexually exploitative of women would be anything and everything.

The ultimate result of the argument isn't any good ether.

Eastern Orthodox Catholics/Russian Catholics view Hair as Sexually Seductive. Therefor, women must wear head scarves.

Islam, any skin showing on a woman is too Sexually Seductive in public. Therefor, women must be fully clothed from head to toe.

Your argument ultimately falls to pieces, because you offer no valid solution, and can be pared down to Attractive Women Shouldn't Be Seen.

So which world do you want?

Do you want a world where women are free to exist as whatever tramp, harlot, stripper, engineer, teacher, or scientist they want to be?

Or do you want a world where women are not to be seen in public?

The path you're presenting Bob is the path that leads to women not being seen even though I know your intention is not to go that far. Your logic is the very logic that has been used to Oppress women the most.

How about a world were men can be trusted no to rape a woman because they see some hair or ankle and women are judged by the skill they bring to the job/issue/whatever and nothing else.

In order for that to happen you need to be aware of the problem. There is no "here is the way to fix this problem" solution aside frmo education and changing the perspectice of people. Bob's episode is a great example of this solution, so I completely disagree with your statement. If one young boy starts to question why he thinks less of women then this video was a success.

Valid points all around. I would say that appearance might count for men in the workplace more than Bob states it does, but it certainly doesn't happen anywhere near as much as it would for women so the viewpoint definitely stands.

DVS BSTrD:
Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

Me too.. but I didn't play 10 and so was kind of lost in the story when I played 11. Unless 12 is a reboot or something I'd probably be even more lost.

Blunderboy:

DVS BSTrD:
Now I really want to play Big Boob Panty Ninja 12.

As do I my friend. As do I.

OT - Well said Bob.

What bothers me is that I missed Big Boob Panty Ninja 1-11. I could probably wait on 12 if I just had those.

Well said, Bob. Speaking as a (sane) feminist, the reaction to this whole thing makes me wish for a button to press that zaps some sense into those people. Ah well...

i am kind of happy about the response to the tropes vs woman, because on the escapist it showed how many people were appalled and shock towards the people who responded. it let me now that at least the escapist hasn't been invaded... entirely

medv4380:

Do you want a world where women are free to exist as whatever tramp, harlot, stripper, engineer, teacher, or scientist they want to be?

Or do you want a world where women are not to be seen in public?

Did you miss the part where he said female characters in revealing outfits is okay? But that it would be nice if women were represented by a wider spectrum of body-types and characterisation?
"Mai looking like she does is awesome. Everyone looking like she does is stupid"

Besides, female characters in games don't choose to dress or act the way they do. They are written that way, and too often their writing and design is based on making them sex objects.

Rednog:
I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE

Kargathia:
This specific woman is treated with a deluge of mysogyny, anti-semitism, racism, and plain insults that beggars belief - all for proposing to make a series of videos on a tendency in video gaming that really is in dire need of an overhaul.

Even by your own arguments there is something preeetttty wrong here.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the response she got isn't... disappointing, to put it kindly, but then again, those of us who have been on the internet for more than five minutes know that this happens regardless of what type of issue is brought up, be it something as serious as gay marriage or something as trivial as this.

You have to remember that when you feel that you're anonymous, you're more likely to say stuff that you probably wouldn't otherwise. I think that the outcry this woman received is more immature than sexist. That's not to say that it's not indicative of the sexism present in our society, because it definitely is.

However, the problem isn't that video games are sexist. They aren't. Neither are they racist or discriminatory in any way. They're just fictional media.

The problem is that people are sexist, both men and women.

Monxeroth:
snip

Feel free to demand your money back. How much did you donate?

Very well said, Bob.

I think the last point is especially well said, both my sisters are female gamers, to some varying extents. They don't feel attracted to most of the male characters at all. I actually went and asked them which characters they find the most attractive, you know what i got?

Thane Krios:
image

and Alistair from Dragon Age:
image

Both of these dudes, while physically fit are not disproportionately so. When I inquired why they liked these characters, the way they looked is not what was mentioned.

Didn't he make that very same point in another video? About Women in Comic Books?
A fresh approach would have been nice.

Restating things that you are already certain of is exactly the kind of thing that disturbs me about Women vs. Tropes: People go into their analysis of a given topic with a premade opinion. Just look at the tropes that she named in her video. Geeez. I wonder how her results are going to be?

If nothing else, posting the same video on two issues implies that the issues can be compared. They can't. Women are represented in an entirely different way in Video Games than in Comic Books.

templar1138a:
Thanks for pointing this crap out.

When I saw the trailer for the kick-starter, I remained as objective as possible, neither allowing myself to say "Oh god, not this again!" or "Oh god, she's so right!"

In the end, I thought about it and thought, "Yes, there's plenty of stereotyping and objectifying of women in video games. But what's this woman's agenda? There's something about her tone that I don't like. I get the feeling she has a certain sense of superiority to people around her. In a way, she reminds me of Michael Moore..."

I later read that she makes a point about still being a virgin. I have yet to confirm it, but if she does indeed make that as a point to try to validate herself, it says a lot about her agenda and her view of men.

But my ultimate realization came about when I saw the hateful responses to her kick-starter trailer. At first I just thought, "Oh great, the internet's at it again." But then I realized, "Wait a minute, she wanted this to happen. She wanted to be pelted with abuse and hate so attention would be drawn to her kick-starter and she'd get the funds she needs. Not only that, but she could possibly use that abuse as ammunition to push the extreme not-feminist idea that men are inferior to women (if that's her agenda, I honestly don't know, it only occurred as a possibility)."

And then, in my best Australian accent, "Clever girl!"

So from there, I decided to ignore this fiasco. Because the abuse is not being caused by the video games themselves, which I think she believes. The abuse is a symptom of larger problems within the gamer and geek cultures. Her video isn't going to change that in either direction, and she herself will be forgotten until she finds another powder keg of a demographic to set off.

And if you haven't noticed, I haven't addressed her by name. Because I don't remember it, even with it being mentioned in the kick-starter promo and this Big Picture episode. Because she is so small compared to the larger issue that is root of the misogyny that exists within gamer/geek culture.

This . . . all of this . . . is the smartest thing I have heard anyone say about this fiasco. (Including Bob's video, while there's nothing incorrect in it, it doesn't really address the direct cause of the backlash, that being the kickstarter to make a non-scholarly internet video. Heck, Bob himself has done videos on this subject before, and didn't need lods of emone to do it.)

Xanthious:
I noticed Bob conveniently ignored that men are indeed objectified in much the same way as women in things like trashy romance novels, daytime soap operas, TV shows like Desperate Housewives and Gray's Anatomy, or even movies like Twilight and I could go on. Last I checked there aren't hordes of men getting in line to buy soap boxes to stand on while they get all indignant on the internet about that though.

The thing is that sex sells. If you have a product aimed largely at men having scantily clad women in the mix somewhere is probably going to help you move product. Similarly if you your product is for women then having men with bodies that look to be chiseled of stone will probably be good for the bottom line. This isn't some huge social issue plaguing society, or even geek culture. It happens on both sides of the fence every single day.

Yeah, look at say a lot of men from women's romcoms and chick flicks, and guess what they're all perfect, probably muscular, thin white males with perfect hair. Women are getting a ridiculous image of men from Justin Bieber, One Direction and Twilight yet no one complains because there are bigger problems to do with the same fucking subject. To be honest, I see this whole thing this way:

Cancer is a massive problem, and it needs to be solved. Then someone who says they want to put a stop to cancer comes out, and asks for money to complain about how hospital food for cancer patients is bad. Then, they call anyone who says that complaining about how hospital food is bad people who just want everyone with cancer to die a horrible death, and are extreme bastards. Then, they get masses of money from people who don't want to be seen to be for cancer. They then use that money to... complain about how hospital food for cancer patients is bad. Instead of you know, curing cancer.

Just replace cancer with sexism, and complaining about hospital food with complaining about how most female game characters aren't good female characters and you've got my view on the issue.

I'm not against women, I am against people like this who just complain about the smaller issues with sexism, when there are still massive issues with sexism to BOTH genders in even countries like the USA.

[EDIT]Also, adding to the analogy. The person complaining about bad hospital food just does that, complain about it. When, if they think it's such a big problem they should be using the money to get a cooking degree, and working at hospitals making awesome food for cancer patients.

I for one am entirely okay with the idea of making male video game characters, or characters in various entertainment media in general, physically attractive primarily for the sake of female viewers. A game that features a male cast made up entirely of incredibly sexualized and handsome men, with the female cast primarily made up of women who are average-looking, if not outright unattractive, with steps taking to not portray them as universally bad on account of not looking drop dead gorgeous. It wouldn't take a great deal of effort to pull that off, one would think.

I had a feeling you were going to address this. Well said... this really cannot be expressed enough.

The big boobed panty ninja series hasn't been good since the 7th one when they dumbed down the RPG elements added cross-hairs for shooting milk and breast high walls to crouch behind.

I commented on the original youtube video a week or so ago that I was in support of this series being made

...I spent the next six hours 'debating' with three angry guys who were under the impressions that:

a) This was a feminazi socialist conspiracy
b) That it would mean an end to all big-boobed panty ninja style games forever
c) that I, being a mid-20s white hetero guy who supported this, was some kind of gender traitor
d9 that this was a completely waste of money to fund, since there obviously wasn't any problem to examine to begin with

So very sad

What I don't understand is the outrage over how much money she received and the amount of people saying that she should give it to charity.
When Extra Credits started a similar campaign, people donated generously and they received more than their target amount. Where was the anger then? Why weren't people telling EC that there were children starving in Africa?

Chatney:

The problem is that people are sexist, both men and women.

Quite, but I'd say it's a good thing that there is some recognition of which creative expressions are sexist. Big-boobed catsuit nymphomaniacs are not normal.

Which is not to say you can't pull all kinds of ridiculous crap if you feel like doing so. Saints Row 3, for example, was pretty damn hilarious - mostly because it took everything ridiculous it could lay its hands on, and took it up to 11.

The problem lies more with people thoughtlessly accepting or incorporating said catsuit nympho's because of no other reason than that they're used to it.

But, but, what about Jabberjaw?
He's the coolest greatest shark I ever saw.

I wouldn't say that sexual exploitation is "bad", but I would prefer to say that I would LOVE a better variety in it. Huge boobs and nice hips/butt are nice and all but what about the women with those seductive voices? These women might not have the greatest body, but just hearing them talk brings many men to attention.

What of Cougars? These type of women I LOVE above any other hardly exist in video game form or any other media form.

Milfs would pander to many men and are hardly shown.

There's the girl next door type, the dominatrix type, the Tsundere type..pfft and this is just the tip of the iceberg of different possible sexually exploitable women that I want to see more of than just hour glass figures.

For women? All you have to do is read nearly any romance novel written by women (I've read a few dozen, I like the atmosphere and detail they go into) and start from there.

I want to get this out of the way. Though women may of been "sexualized" in video games, most of those women in modern day games hardly need a guy around to get the job done. Sure they are eye candy, but they aren't exactly waiting back home for the husband to be back from work so she can feed him her home cooked meal in a cleaned home.

I feel compelled to make a bunch of videos about the representation of men in romantic comedies. I am able to do this with no budget, but I'm gonna start a kickstarter for 6,000 US dollars.

On a more serious note, the "all men are jerks" vibe I got from the episode is making me think of Chris-Chan. It's becoming apparent that Bob is the intelligent equivalent of the infamous Sonichu creator.

My opinion on this is the same as my opinion on black Heimdal or gay Lantern:
- if you want an interesting hero that represents your demographic in a piece of fiction - than go write one. Or pay someone (who will likely be a white heterosexual male) to write one.

I know what heroes I want to see in my fiction and all my monies will be spent supporting people who write stories about them.
(spoilers - they are not all from my demographic)

What I see in all the gender-debates are attempts to shame heterosexual white males in entertainment industry into writing heroes from other demographics for free(!)
Sorry, people, money talks, diversity walks.

When women are willing to pay cash for their fiction - we get Twilight or 50 Shades of Gray (and boy-oh-boy is there male objectification galore in those)
So the cost is clear and the tools are clear for all. Spend away ladies, less internet chit-chat, more "Ka-ching!" to the writers.

As to the already existing properties - both video game or others - in the immortal words of Tony Stark:
"You want my property - you can't have it!"

This is one of those things where you hear it and say, yeah that's right, that's whats needed to be said. And suddenly you have hope that everyone will see the light and finally move away from this ...

and then someone says 'But...'

So I'm not going to read the comments section, and hope that if I did, it would help me retain my faith in humanity. But cheers Bob, that was cool and you probably risked a firestorm over it

Ahh, Damn it, I expected bob to tell me something that wasn't glaringly obvious. You know, like he normally does.

Still a good show with fantastic points that were well made, but I feel that for once he was talking to the lowest common denominator... Or does he always do that an I just don't notice? :P

Captcha: in the cart - What you trying to say captcha?

Well said again Bob. :D

I don't agree with Bob in this case. Not over the fact that this woman is doing this but over the argument itself. Bob took a very week, and very common argument over the issue and decided to run over body image for men vs. women.

I am down with this woman getting videos about women and their tropes in video games etc. The problem isn't her, it's the idea that men's stereotypes are perfectly fine and all is fine in the world form men, it isn't.

The problem with Bob and a lot of other guys, feminist, traditionalist, etc. is that while women issues are talked over, and indeed must be talked over, men's are not even thought about.

The body argument that he presented was one I heard, but even as an MRA I quickly laughed over and just judge as misogynist.

The issue I could easily talk about men have issue men's disposability. This is something hard to grasp, because most people have already accepted that a man should risk his life for other people. In other words, we have accepted that the role of men is to die. The major issue I have with men's role in video games is that it reinforces men to be disposable in a dangerous environment.

Take it light this, if you imagine a woman getting punched in the face several times with the same thought as a man getting punched in the face several times, you have successfully gotten rid of sexual stereotypes. Why? Because most people will jump over that a woman got beatted up over the man, because she is genetically weaker than man. Despite the fact we lived in a civilized society, where might does not make right.

Both sexes have large, glaring stereotypes on both sides that need to be fixed. Women have been seen, as delicate, weak, emotional, etc. vs. Men being strong, independent, and sacrificial.

Once again, that does not make me an opponent to Female Tropes or such 'feminist' projects. Videos like her need to and ought to occur to talk about sexual stereotypes and progression. Yet we cannot remove male's from the discussion, not the videos (For they talk ABOUT Women) but the discussion itself.

Do I hate Bob for following a good old 'Defend thy lady'? No. The topic is valid, the issues are valid, and the misogynist need to shut their traps when trying to drag women back into a role of submission and to where women are necessary to be protected from the harms of the world. Women don't need protection, they don't need submission, they are human beings and thus can function like human beings. Bob just doesn't know about his own sex's issues.

Kargathia:
Quite, but I'd say it's a good thing that there is some recognition of which creative expressions are sexist. Big-boobed catsuit nymphomaniacs are not normal.

Which is not to say you can't pull all kinds of ridiculous crap if you feel like doing so. Saints Row 3, for example, was pretty damn hilarious - mostly because it took everything ridiculous it could lay its hands on, and took it up to 11.

The problem lies more with people thoughtlessly accepting or incorporating said catsuit nympho's because of no other reason than that they're used to it.

There certainly is a tendency for developers to incorporate these stereotypes in video games, even though I seriously doubt that any of them have sexist attitudes towards women. It's just market pressure. You want men to play your games, a cheap shot is to include idealised females. The same is true of any other visual media.

It has gone so far that I have on more than one occasion found myself doing a fist pump in favour of Shepard from Mass Effect's appropriately sized chest, but I can't say that I find it to be anything other than sloppy or tacky design, like what we've had to endure from Hollywood for the last decades or so.

It's dangerous to look at a video game character and declare that "that's sexism." Accepting this invites the type of over-sensitivity that is such a problem everywhere; people taking offence to everything left, right and centre. The woman that more or less started all this is partly guilty of such, as she is drawing attention to something that is neither new nor surprising and acting as though it is a serious problem that needs to be addressed and dealt with, making trivial issues seem more important and drawing attention away from where it ought to be.

i dont get what she wants to change (never saw her videos, please feel extremely free to fill me in on this), but if i have to drawn a conclusion from tv and movies, is that instead of both party looking extremely outrageous, she wants only men to look like that

saintdane05:
So, were you just attempting to foreshadow the fact that you might do DBZ next week? Because that would be awesome.

Indeed it would. That would give me a chance to maybe learn something new about the show.
Haven't watched, read or played any DB in several years but just like pokemon my knowledge about the series won't vanish from my head how much I try -.-

Great episode again. I enjoy these thinkers that TBP gives me tuesday nights.

Bob, there were ways of not sounding immensely smug and pandering but you ignored them. You could also take the vocal, petulant youtube crowd with a pinch of salt when looking for opposition. Could you have a look at what this woman has to say in these videos and actually point out the flaws? No one seems to argue against bad feminism, though feminism is an outdated term for what is really a search for societal equality (I cant think of any outstanding laws which are prejudice against women, I cant think that one is unreasonably in favour of women but thats a separate issue and means a lot personally to me, plus its one law and doesnt stand to redeem any of the other inequalities nor marginalise them). Bad feminism is, in my opinion, where some women try to speak on all women's behalf as a means of importing artificial authority over others opinions (I know no one can speak literally on all womens behalf but for every non formal group some try to claim to have mandate for the voice of the entire group to support their personal views and agenda). It is also where women use feminism to impose some sort of strict idea of a 'good' female representation, or are confrontational of men for not being assholes, a good example of this would be the confrontational language in the $50 donation prize thing that this very woman was running.

MatParker116:
I find it slightly depressing that the best examples of female playable characters I can think of the top of my head are:

The Dragonborn
The Warden
The Champion
Commander Shepard
Noble Six
Samus

Five Blank Slates and one who has a "Zero Suit".

Best female video game character is Alyx Vance by the way.

hey you forgot these!

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