Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest

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I would like to know what's the point of adding female models in a FPS like call of duty though, you're not going to see any difference in the fast paced action.
I support the idea of adding female char models in a game like BRINK, because the female characteristics are noticeable more easily and game was about customization.

Old post:

That's a look almost straight out of saints row

I really don't see why women are excluded from fps games
Especially that alien one
Doesn't seem like it should be that big a deal
Also halo reach had female Spartans, not that you could really tell which is a good thing

Id also like to break the all men are 6 foot meat bags
In the future there is only war and you are a conscripted 5 foot British ex rock-star
Being able to take cover more effectively than anybody else adds to you combat effectiveness more so than even your aim in video games and real life
Being big does not mean as much anymore unless you have aspirations of becoming a space marine who also are not gender exclusive I think. Sure all the women only exist in one chapter but they are all immune to the effects of the warp or something.

This week's Jimquisition (Through the eyes of a Podtoid fan):

00:20 - *round of applause because I never saw that coming*

00:21-05:15 - *takes Jim's words as gospel*

05:16 - try and figure out how confident Jim was to dress up for the occasion.

But seriously, hopefully the games industry'll pull it's head in.....at some point.....

Good episode, and fair points. I always said the same thing when people say that woman can't be in games, because you have to make them weaker or smaller or some nonsense.

That said, Jim I have to know: are they real? :)

porpoise hork:
If there is a 3rd person game I am playing has a female character model, I make it a point to use the female model. If I'm going to be staring at the backside of my character for untold hours I at least want something half way decent to look at.

hmm. crotch-less knickers..

That's why I enjoyed Saints Row 2 so much. In FPSs it doesn't really matter as much. I'll have to ask my wife if she would appreciate that or even notice; she likes CoD but I've never heard her complain that it's all dick. I think that most people still think of open combat as being a more masculine area.

And as George Carlin would've pointed out; in FPSs they're all running around with weapons that are shaped like dicks, killing people with projectiles shaped like dicks, so they can drop bombs shaped like dicks.

I agree with the whole video - women aren't in as many FPSes as they should be. Valve has made a whole franchise (albeit with only 2 games in it if you don't count Still Alive), first person, with a female protagonist. Surely another company could do the same?

Also, there is ONE female character in the Modern Warfare franchise if I'm not mistaken. She's the soldier you have to rescue from the downed helicopter on the Shock and Awe level of Call of Duty 4. Seriously, that's the only role females have? To be rescued? It's as if Infinity Ward though 'I know what we can do! Show that women are defenceless when not making sandwiches!' or something. That game had a huge budget...so where were all the ladies?!

MatParker116:
To be fair to MW,BF and MOH most Western Special Forces unit's don't allow women to try out, outside of Delta Force's "Funny Platoon" and some British Intelligence unit's. Also how it is that Halo: Reach (Kat, Six can be female) is the most gender equal FPS I can think of?

My original draft of the video addressed this a lot more but I toned down the realism argument, but to address it here, although women aren't officially considered for infantry and other roles (though new roles are opening up all the time), that hasn't stopped women being engaged in combat, or dying just as readily as men. Especially in the case of games like MW3 and BO2, where wars are being fought on US soil, it is logical to surmise that women would be most likely called upon to defend territory.

In a recent suit filed to ask for more opportunities for women, it's also been argued that women, while not "assigned" to combat units, have been "attached" to them, something the suit argues contains "no practical difference."

So yeah, opportunities for women in the US military are definitely more limited, but there is enough precedent to realistically portray them fighting in online multiplayer modes.

Mass Effect 3's multiplayer is chock full of female and male avatars of varying shapes and sizes. So yeah, that along with all the other examples brought up really shines a light on this not being an issue of "balance," or "cost," or even "misogyny," but just flat-out laziness.

The "female character is smaller" did actually happen in Rainbow Six Vegas, where a male character stuck very slightly out of cover sometimes and a female character didn't.

I don't think that other games have had the same thing though. In Halo 3 for instance it just changed your voice set. Reach you were slightly thinner but there was no change in hitbox.

PoweD:
I would like to point out another balance issue with models of both sexes.
Classes.
Now, imagine you are playing TF2 and you see a glimpse of a character model, as pointed out by valve in its commentary, character models in the game are modeled so you can instantly know the players class from its silhouette.Having female versions would screw that up completely.
Your mind is constantly trying to tie character models with classes.

Even if you pass that issue, society still thinks women are the weaker/more kind side of gender.Which would trick the player into thinking that the female models are non-hostiles.

Other than that, i completely agree.

There is nothing stopping the classes themselves being bound by gender, though. Any one of TF2's classes could have been a woman by default, hence keeping the model distinctive.

You forgot Halo! Look at the difference between Spartans!

Female:
image

Male:
image

Jim, I will pay you ALL of the money to never dress like a lady again.

ALL of it.

Undeadpool:
Mass Effect 3's multiplayer is chock full of female and male avatars of varying shapes and sizes. So yeah, that along with all the other examples brought up really shines a light on this not being an issue of "balance," or "cost," or even "misogyny," but just flat-out laziness.

The problem with that argument is the Mass Effect 3 is not competitive, when AI shoot at you, they're bound to hit about every single bullet. (Auto aim). Females and Males don't matter at all, in a precision human vs. human based shooter like Call of Duty, it would.

The best argument at all is for something like Halo: Reach or even Lost Planet 2. Hell, I remember that Aliens vs. Predator had a female marine option available to those who earned it.

PoweD:
I would like to point out another balance issue with models of both sexes.
Classes.
Now, imagine you are playing TF2 and you see a glimpse of a character model, as pointed out by valve in its commentary, character models in the game are modeled so you can instantly know the players class from its silhouette.Having female versions would screw that up completely.
Your mind is constantly trying to tie character models with classes.

Even if you pass that issue, society still thinks women are the weaker/more kind side of gender.Which would trick the player into thinking that the female models are non-hostiles.

Other than that, i completely agree.

This is still easily solved, have some of the classes in the game be always female, giving you more sillouhettes. You can also have the female sillouhette be almost identical to the male one.

Your second doubt is just not true, plenty of female opponents in games are the most dangerous. (Mass Effect 3 with the Phantoms and Banshees) Besides enemies in FPS games wear lots of clothes and are fought at a distance and as Jim said, he rarely recognized when he killed a man or a woman.

PoweD:
I would like to point out another balance issue with models of both sexes.
Classes.
Now, imagine you are playing TF2 and you see a glimpse of a character model, as pointed out by valve in its commentary, character models in the game are modeled so you can instantly know the players class from its silhouette.Having female versions would screw that up completely.
Your mind is constantly trying to tie character models with classes.

Even if you pass that issue, society still thinks women are the weaker/more kind side of gender.Which would trick the player into thinking that the female models are non-hostiles.

Other than that, i completely agree.

The Class/Silhouette design mechanics really only work in cartoonish graphics though. Every class in a modern shooter is still shaped like a human covered in body armor. I doubt "slightly wider hips" or "slightly pronounced chest" (body armor is going to cover most of those things) are going to THROW EVERYONE OFF THE RAILS as much as you think.

And really? Having a female model would trick people into thinking they're non-hostile?

I......I..I don't even have a response to that. I really don't. At all.

The thing about BlackLight is that the characters look distinctly gender neutral to begin with... well actually, they out and out don't look human. You could easily mistake them for an alien force or something. All their equipment is hightech and blocky. They're large moving shapes that at best have maybe the basic silhouette of males and females.

If you were going about it for a modern military shooter, it would require a completely different set of animations. The female skeletal structure is very different from the male. Especially in the pelvis. Think about it, that means that pretty much every movement is going to have to be animated twice in subtly but noticeably different fashions to make it seem legit.

Should they start doing this? Hell yea.

I'm just pointing out it really isn't as easy as just scaling hitboxes and using the sculpt tools to flesh out the curves when you're making characters that are true to form.

As a sidenote. If we're talking about the multiplayer. I don't really think of them as male characters, or characters at all for that matter. They're a floating pair of arms as far as I'm concerned.

Terminate421:
You forgot Halo! Look at the difference between Spartans!

Female:
-

Male:
-

Is this supposed to be a bad thing? I kind of like it. The armor is made for duty, not looks. It would have been hilarious if female spartans lacked waste armor to show off their stomach because.....female

The arguments people use to justify not having female characters in games are so flimsy, and none of them really have anything to do with women specifically. All the arguments they use could be used to make an all-female filled game.

Actually, that would be really interesting to see. Unless it's something like DoA. I mean a game like an FPS (something typically male and "gritty" or "badass") except everyone is a woman, and not sexualised. Maybe there could be some plot about some future virus that latches on to the Y chromosome and completely debilitates the carrier, thus forcing females to fill all roles of society. The plot could be focused around trying to find a cure. That could be really interesting.

Oh and Jim, you look so sexy. Just like in my dream last night.

Bato:
Why is it a thing that women have to be petite and short?
They have body sizes that differ as much as men do, sure they have less natural muscle than men do, but that doesn't mean they all have the physique of a 16 year old with two watermelons duct taped to them.

This is because that's apparently how we, men, want women to look like.

We need more than women in games we need some cool female lead characters. real female characters not caricatures. Although i see no reason why there aren't female characters in MP FPS games.

I do feel that more games could give this option oh so easily... Certain games even have female models already, but for some reason dont use them! I think what some may be forgetting is that we're not looking for a vastly diferent model here. Just some slightly feminine features in the same combat gear with a female voice to add to the immersion. It's pretty damn simple (how much does it cost to have a voice actor go "urgh", "aaaah", "medic!" and "grenade" anyway?).

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

So why not stick the female model in the multi-player part of the game? It's already there, is what your saying! No excuse!

ex275w:

Come on Jim, you shouldn't have thanked God this time, thank Mother Gea, when dressing a feminist womyn, you don't need to thank a phallocentric Male God, thank a female one, for Gea's sake.

Is it ever mentioned which God we are thanking for Jim? I can't seem to recall him ever specifying, so no why can't it be female! Thank God for Jim ^^

Bato:
Why is it a thing that women have to be petite and short?
They have body sizes that differ as much as men do, sure they have less natural muscle than men do, but that doesn't mean they all have the physique of a 16 year old with two watermelons duct taped to them.

I'm 6 foot =D.

Scrustle:
The arguments people use to justify not having female characters in games are so flimsy, and none of them really have anything to do with women specifically. All the arguments they use could be used to make an all-female filled game.

Actually, that would be really interesting to see. Unless it's something like DoA. I mean a game like an FPS (something typically male and "gritty" or "badass") except everyone is a woman, and not sexualised. Maybe there could be some plot about some future virus that latches on to the Y chromosome and completely debilitates the carrier, thus forcing females to fill all roles of society. The plot could be focused around trying to find a cure. That could be really interesting.

Oh and Jim, you look so sexy. Just like in my dream last night.

Good luck convincing anyone to fund that. This is the biggest problem really. FPS games cost alot of money. and if i'm going to invest 10-50 mn USD you better convince me that this game will not turn off or piss off the core demographic of FPS gamers, angry 15-30 year old virgin males.

I know the game was old, but I remember there were female soldiers in the COD 2 single player missions in Russia. That was definitely a historical fact I thought was well enough included into the game.

Those defenses against female characters are absolute bullshit, and you and I both know it. The people that spew those defenses (that it costs more to make female and female characters, and that it's imbalanced), are hiding behind those absolutely shitty excuse when, in reality, this is the reasoning for most of them.

They don't want to shoot women. They don't want to see women die. They don't want to line up a woman in their sights, and pull the trigger. I sure as hell don't in a serious game, in a cartoony and lighthearted game maybe, but not a serious one, that's for sure. And that's okay. It just doesn't sit right with me. So?

It's a shock value for most. Sort of like the knifing system in BF3, where you saw your hand pull a man in his early 20's over, and he looked at you, almost with a helpless stare, as you jammed a blade into his chest/throat.

That system irked the fuck out of me. Every time.

Now imagine playing a game like BF3, and pulling that same move against a female character. Early 20s. Mildly attractive. If done right, not really wishing to do harm to the world, more that they have to. It will make some lose sleep. It'll give me nightmares, that's for sure.

Once again, shock value. It's why realistic* shooters don't have women in multiplayer. People haven't opened up to the idea of that yet.

But I go on 4chan. I can tell you something, and I know it better than most. No matter how shocking something is, no matter how it irks you, you can always be desensitized to it, to the point where, you really don't give it a second glance.

I never thought I could get over the knifing in BF3. I did. Eventually. Alot of people don't think they can get over shooting female avatars in a realistic game that portrays itself seriously. They can. Eventually.

The problem is, the first game to implement it will lose alot of sales, simply because people don't want to be phased by it. Of course, there's always a loophole.

Oh, and to all you people actually trying to argue about balance issues with male vs female characters.

S4 league. Female and male characters. Lighthearted game. Shooter.
Female dodge rolls are OP, cried all the little boys,
since the males did this dash where they got low and the females twirled
yet people who actually played the game with both gender characters actually scored about the same

dantoddd:

Scrustle:
The arguments people use to justify not having female characters in games are so flimsy, and none of them really have anything to do with women specifically. All the arguments they use could be used to make an all-female filled game.

Actually, that would be really interesting to see. Unless it's something like DoA. I mean a game like an FPS (something typically male and "gritty" or "badass") except everyone is a woman, and not sexualised. Maybe there could be some plot about some future virus that latches on to the Y chromosome and completely debilitates the carrier, thus forcing females to fill all roles of society. The plot could be focused around trying to find a cure. That could be really interesting.

Oh and Jim, you look so sexy. Just like in my dream last night.

Good luck convincing anyone to fund that. This is the biggest problem really. FPS games cost alot of money. and if i'm going to invest 10-50 mn USD you better convince me that this game will not turn off or piss off the core demographic of FPS gamers, angry 15-30 year old virgin males.

Doesn't necessarily have to be an FPS, just a game where the female characters are portrayed as being strong and capable, and not being objectified or being nothing but eye-candy.

I can dig no female characters in CoD since the SAS, Navy SEALS and Delta Force at least do not allow women in its ranks. It would have made sense to include them in the stuff thats happening on US soil since at that point if you can point and shoot, you're probably getting sent somewhere to do it.

Howeve the knowledge that Vasquez was not one of the pre-order multiplayer skins, or that female skins are not in Colonial Marines, is a fucking crock of the highest order. Vasquez was one the biggest badasses ever, had some of the best lines and to me was pretty interesting. Fuck I'd have dropped Apone and kept Drake AND Vasquez

Not cool Gearbox.

I know this thread is specifically about FPS, and potentially multiplayer as it has been brought up a bit, but I have a confession.

I am a male who will at any opportunity roll female in any video game. My mind kind of tells me that since I'm entering a fictional world where I have the power to change things and am completely different from my real persona, I gravitate to female as I know what it's like and am comfortable with male.

I rolled femshep through 3 epic journeys, a girl named Talora survived Demon's and Dark Souls, there's a craaaaazy woman who blew up more than one Saint's Row city, there's a female lvl 72 Blood Elf lost in Blizzard's servers...I think I've made my point.

I hate to say this, but judging by the marketing and overall tone of the "real-war" FPS games, they seem to be catering to dudes, men, guys. There's no reason why there couldn't be female character options, but I really don't imagine a massive demand for it, lest there be a petition sizable enough that the wargame devs would comply.

Really though, outside of the wargame FPS sausagefest, there is a plethora of options for a female to experience a fantasy world as her gender. Publishers and Developers aren't completely pants on head retarded yet, they do market research and focus group testing and I get the impression that this sausagefest is no coincidence.

Twinmill5000:
-snip-

I don't get why you would feel worse about killing a female in a game than a male. Maybe I'm just uncommonly detached when it comes to videogames? I'm never bothered regardless of gender, race or age (old lady, DIE!!!). I don't understand why some consider certain people of higher value than other based on trivial things such as age.

Am I as cold in real life? No, I struggle giving one of two friends a slightly smaller piece of cake than the other! It doesn't matter which gender they are though, or where they are from. If they are good people I value them equally.

In a game there are no consequences of shooting the other one, regardless of their gender, age or race. I'll gladly blow their brains out if it means extra points. It's so detached from real life that I don't even think twice about it. I would certainly like the option of a customizable character including race and gender, but it wouldn't affect how I acted towards other players any!

NinjaDeathSlap:
Jim, may I say just what a frankly stunning woman you make. Has anyone ever suggested that you make the change more permanent?

Oh and yeah, good episode as well. Speaking as a dude who is usually more comfortable playing as a dude... needs more chicks.

I must agree, quite striking really, its the big curly hair that does it.

Really good point well made.
I'd love to have more options to roll a female character, but I do get told often that the market for female gamers is so small it doesn't matter.
I will still (obviously) play games where you can be only male, but having the option is preferable.

Metalix Knightmare:
Jim, I will pay you ALL of the money to never dress like a lady again.

ALL of it.

For shame, it wasn't that bad... Watch some Eddie Izzard, sir, you'll get over it.

Oh, tangentially related, did you know that Playboy has put men on the cover occasionally in the past decade? Granted, they have not been posed in a sexual way, more like a role model, but still. Progressive thinking wins!

Funny, how BLACK OPS II of all games seems to try to change that, at least for the singleplayer portion, in MMS (Modern Military Shooter), by giving you support-characters, which are women. One we can even "see" in the clip Jim showed - the pilot of the jet we see there is female.
Black Ops 1 already changed that with "Call of the Dead" in the Zombie mode (which not only featured four new player-models - one female - but also new arm-models, new dialogues ect) and in an indirect way in the map "Moon" (you get a female character in a male body after they swap bodies near the end of the story... don't think too much about it, it only makes sense in context) and it's very likely that in BO2 Zombies, we again get a female model considering the return of a good amount of characters as well as a unknown woman in the promotional pic for the mode. So, the only "missing part" would be the Multiplayer - and I wouldn't be surprised, if we see a gender-toggle there for each loadout.
Regarding "Aliens: Colonial Marines" - yes, Gearbox did kind of a screw-up here, but they were probably thinking too much from a developer-side than from the Alien-side when approaching the MP - and with that, they were unfortunally thinking like most devs regarding Multiplayer-FPS and only made males (as far as we know, at least - considering how much developement-time is left and was already spend, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply were just not able to add the female players to their preview-builds or do so after the topic was mentioned for the first time)

And in other FPS-subgenres, we already have female characters (Zoey, Rochelle and Chell from Valve, even Chell is slightly a strech due never really 'shooting' - Samus in the Metroid Prime games - the mentioned Killzone 1 even), so it most the MMS, which are dropping the ball on this.

However, I can sort of understand the cost-issue. While a new model might not cost as much, espically if you put them into tons of gear and already have a buckload of playermodels in the MP, a VOICE-ACTOR is needed at times aswell. Depending on how chatty the player-characters are in the respective situations, that might cost more than the new model. That was even one of the reasons, why Tripwire, for a long time, didn't add a female playermodel to Killing Floor, despite having like 30 playermodels to pick from (but only two voices in total) - in the end, their EUROPEAN RETAIL-PARTNER created that female model (and paid all costs related to it) in the end. While already avaible for people buying the boxed Gold-Edition for about 3 months, everyone else can get her next week, August 1st - it's a bit complex, why other people have to wait for it, check the KF-Forum (with 5$, it's for a single model quiet a lot, but 1$ of each purchase will go to charity and... well, it's the only female model so far, most people will buy it for that price - I know I will.)

Christ, that was longer than I expected. So, I guess I end this now - finding some brain-bleach to get the pic of Jim in women-clothes out of my head. FAST.

Vampire cat:

ex275w:

Come on Jim, you shouldn't have thanked God this time, thank Mother Gea, when dressing a feminist womyn, you don't need to thank a phallocentric Male God, thank a female one, for Gea's sake.

Is it ever mentioned which God we are thanking for Jim? I can't seem to recall him ever specifying, so no why can't it be female! Thank God for Jim ^^

Well from what I know from religion God (with an uppercase), usually refers to the male Christian god, occasionally known as YHWH or Yahweh. While god (with a lower case) usually means gods like Zeus, Aprhodite or Artemis.
Still, he really should have referred to Gea, since apparently that's what some radical feminists do, and not referring to a explicitly female deity is misogynist and cissexist.

That is a surprisingly convincing drag O.o

Bobic:

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

While that was the example I was thinking of, I can't get past the fact that it's throwing up an easy target for the militant feminist, who will no doubt point out that the fact that the one female's sole purpose is to be rescued isn't all that much of a step forward.

Still, a woman in CoD is a woman in CoD.

Militant Feminist... now there is a strange term, is that a feminist who is in the military or one that enforces gender equality with a gun and doesn't take shit from anyone?

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