No, BioShock Infinite's Ending Doesn't Suck

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I've heard some people call it the worst ending ever, but that's just being a big hyperbolic tosspot pretending to have edgy opinions.

Of course it is. Mass Effect 3 is the worst ending ever. The original one, before Extended Cut and Leviathan, that came completely out of left field with 0 foreshadowing and 0 explanation.

I'm going to get the fudge out of here now before I get the game spoiled for me byeeeee!

I don't get the too violent argument, if the executions are the only thing that are making people question the use of violence than just don't do the executions. You don't have to do them, and in all actuality, you're pretty vulnerable when you go out of your way to do them.

I think a lot of people need to replay Bioshock 1 to remember exactly what a shitty ending is.
In all seriousness, the 2 bullshit endings were given a pass because of the awesome game play and good story, but dear god those were just a last minute job by the guy who wanted to go home early to do some more coke. At the very least, even if you aren't a sci-fi person (although, why you'd get a Cyberpunk punk game like System Shock or a Biopunk like bioshock is then beyond me) the ending does leave you thinking.

See I disagree that the few horrific things don't work because Columbia's inhabitants are "cartoons", the one thing I do find horrific in this setting is knowing that there really are people just like that in the world despite how cartoony they feel.
The White Man's Burden, Protect racial purity, the religious fervor, Bioshock Infinite's setting didn't create any of these situations, it brought them in from actual history. And I think it contrasts with the beauty of the environments to make some pretty effect horror sub-elements.
Kind of like Children of the Corn. Spoilers, but once it turned out that The Man Behind the Rows was actually a real entity with real supernatural power, it stopped being scary for me, because what was truly terrifying about those kids and their town was the sheer volume of delusion they were operating so efficiently on. Once it turned out they weren't delusional, it fell apart for me.

1337mokro:
Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Except that Lutece never racked up his gambling debt. Also, who is he going to sell his baby to?

Sir Thomas Sean Connery:
That's it. I'm calling it. Yahtzee is Spoony's long lost British twin.

Seriously.

This article is basically identical to what Noah said in his review.

I'm not calling ripoff, it's just interesting.

Or maybe they're really just the same person from alternate universes who only differ one gene or something like that.

FallenMessiah88:
Calling people "edgy" for having a different opinon is pretty tactless. Granted, there do exist people like that and I'm pretty sure you will also find them within the Bioshock community. Still, I'm sure that there are people out there who genuinely find Bioshock Infinite's ending to be "the worst ending ever" and lumping them in with the "edgy" crowd isn't very nice.

Also, I havent't played Bioshock Infinite yet, so I have no real opinion on the matter (yet).

No, as someone who has played it, I would say that this claim is legitimate. It's less of being tactless and it's more like a hard truth. You see, as opposed to the first Bioshock, this ending doesn't stem from a gameplay issue. It's more of a story thing. And I think it's very hard to come up with legitimate arguments as to why the story has "the worst ending ever".
Basically it's a classic debate about art appreciation. There are both an intellectual and an emotional level to it. And while it's very admirable that you would want to protect those who dislike the game on an emotional level, even those people will have to admit that the ending isn't "bad" on an intellectual level. But it's the people who call it bad on an intellectual level who Yahtzee is calling disingenuous.

P.S. A thread about the ending of Bioshock is a pretty dangerous place to be, if you don't like massive spoilers and by massive I mean: spoilers of a galactic proportions.

P.P.S. Play the game. It's pretty much the best thing that will come out this year.

Ending is fine although troubled by a couple of plot holes and inconsistencies. The only thing I find really disappointing is the fact that focus on Elizabeth basically prevented them from in-depth exploration of some of the issues they mention in the game (slavery, class conflicts, racism etc.).

Farther than stars:

1337mokro:
Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Except that Lutece never racked up his gambling debt. Also, who is he going to sell his baby to?

OBJECTION!!!

The Lutece brother never racked up his debt! That was Booker's own gambling and drinking that brought him to that state!

Remember what the Lutece said. In exchange for PAYING OFF your debts you would give us the girl.

The Lutece was the one who paid of his debt in exchange for the girl. Now if you have to ask me who wants a young baby girl the answer is quite obvious. The guy Booker still owes the debt when the Lutece doesn't pay it off. You see we return to the point where Booker is STILL indebted nobody is there to pay it off for him now.

cricket chirps:
:/ I liked the ending and hated it. I would still give the game glaringly good reviews but i really don't like how everyone is talking about the ending as if it was sheer brilliance.

It was nice but it was FAR from original and magnificent: "YOU'RE THE BAD GUY THE WHOLE TIME!!!" :/ I mean really.

Oh, I don't think anyone is saying it's original, but it's still far from being conventional. Also, there's the bonus of this meaning that there is a version of reality where Bioshock 2 never existed and now we can just accept that as being canon. :)

as someone who unfortunately lives in the republican south i can attest that there ARE some people THAT fucking stupid as to make that connection and claim offense to it

freakonaleash:
I don't get the too violent argument, if the executions are the only thing that are making people question the use of violence than just don't do the executions. You don't have to do them, and in all actuality, you're pretty vulnerable when you go out of your way to do them.

It depends on the Booker-Build you go for there are outfits(to replace your tonics) that give you bonuses on the in your face stuff i hade two or three that gave me increased damage increased range and health absorption.

The ultimate point of them though was to showcase Booker as being Unhinged and barely sane in battle situations due to his Massive PTSD and guilt over Wounded Knee, it also helps that Elizabeth Freaks out a bit every time you Murder a dude with the executions but for the most part just takes them as Necessary evils to get away from the hell of the tower and what Comstock has planned for her. which is why she runs off as many times as she does to get away from you(Booker) and the situation at hand that may or may not have been caused by Booker or a decision Booker made that affected them both.

1337mokro:
The Lutece brother never racked up his debt! That was Booker's own gambling and drinking that brought him to that state!

Remember what the Lutece said. In exchange for PAYING OFF your debts you would give us the girl.

The Lutece was the one who paid of his debt in exchange for the girl. Now if you have to ask me who wants a young baby girl the answer is quite obvious. The guy Booker still owes the debt when the Lutece doesn't pay it off. You see we return to the point where Booker is STILL indebted nobody is there to pay it off for him now.

Well, basically you're just arguing semantics now (and the Luteces had something to say about that as well). Just because Comstock paid off the debt, doesn't mean it wasn't fabricated by the Luteces in the first place. By the way, I do like how you refer to the Luteces as being one person (although we differ semantically on that as well).

1337mokro:
Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Not so fast. Because he "died", there is no one to go buy the daughter off of him. Most people generally are not predisposed to buy people's babies. It isn't a happy life ahead (alcoholism, debts, guilt broken abusive family) but it's probably better than a racist super city that ends up either destroying everything, or getting blown to bits.

Farther than stars:

1337mokro:
The Lutece brother never racked up his debt! That was Booker's own gambling and drinking that brought him to that state!

Remember what the Lutece said. In exchange for PAYING OFF your debts you would give us the girl.

The Lutece was the one who paid of his debt in exchange for the girl. Now if you have to ask me who wants a young baby girl the answer is quite obvious. The guy Booker still owes the debt when the Lutece doesn't pay it off. You see we return to the point where Booker is STILL indebted nobody is there to pay it off for him now.

Well, basically you're just arguing semantics now (and the Luteces had something to say about that as well). Just because Comstock paid off the debt, doesn't mean it wasn't fabricated by the Luteces in the first place. By the way, I do like how you refer to the Luteces as being one person (although we differ semantically on that as well).

You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

james.sponge:
Ending is fine although troubled by a couple of plot holes and inconsistencies. The only thing I find really disappointing is the fact that focus on Elizabeth basically prevented them from in-depth exploration of some of the issues they mention in the game (slavery, class conflicts, racism etc.).

The thing is, those issues are fairly simple and transparent in and of themselves. As an audience, we know that racism and slavery is bad, and that's really all there is to say on the subject. Oh, and that prolonged racism can produce violent extremists amongst its victims. This is different from Objectivism, which is more nuanced, complicated in concept, and actually holds some appeal for certain people.

I wish they went into quack science and supernaturalism more. The creepiest moment for me in the entire game is when you stumble across Elizabeth's menarche. I didn't even know what that word meant, but I knew immediately what I was looking at...shudder. I found it fairly plausible that turn of the century pseudo-science would resort to that kind of perverse, idiotic research. Hell, there could be this whole story about a leader who depends on exploiting people's fear of the supernatural, whilst there is an ongoing process to figure if it really exists - the effects and appeal of superstition, and the science of a real afterlife and magic.

Nice to know Yahtzee/Movie Bob and many others really liked this game's ending.
I personally loved the ending, haven't seen and ending this moving since Persona 4. Sure it was generic, filled with several plot holes, but it left me with this sense of awe. I was not only pleased but at the same time filled with emotion, which then ended with happiness in the post credits scene:

And that got me thinking, this game could end in a huge number of other ways: Perhaps Booker took Elizabeth to Paris, got her that puppy she always wanted, danced with her at the beach when she asked, ect. ect.

Different universes, with different outcomes all satisfying everyone's and even the character's wants and desires, all because one man's choice and personal redemption in the very end.

The possibilities with this ballsy ending we got are ENDLESS. And that why I love this game's ending. And if you don't like it "To each their own" I say...
But you're wrong and I hate you.

OT: At least this game took the time to explain its ending, unlike... other... Bioware related endings... PLEASE GOD NO ONE REPLY TO THIS!

maninahat:

1337mokro:
Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Not so fast. Because he "died", there is no one to go buy the daughter off of him. Most people generally are not predisposed to buy people's babies. It isn't a happy life ahead (alcoholism, debts, guilt broken abusive family) but it's probably better than a racist super city that ends up either destroying everything, or getting blown to bits.

You do know people sell babies all the time? Right?

I mean right now some baby somewhere is sold to someone. It is also questionable about what is best or better. I don't think you know exactly how bad an alcoholic gambling broke dad can be. Neither do I but you seem to be SERIOUSLY down playing it.

Sure she was stuck up in the city but she had everything she wanted. Essentially the Bird and the Cage argument here, but in my opinion she was better off in the Cage physically speaking and we don't KNOW if Comstock would have gone through with it in THAT dimension. Remember multiple universes? For all we know the universe she was in had a Comstock that would eventually mellow down, you see we don't actually know in which universe we are at the end. The Comstock we kill might not have been the first Comstock, after all the Comstock killing happens after I think about... 3-4 different universe changes?

Oh sure old Elizabeth sends you back to A universe where she was captured but you don't know if it was the same you started in.

So really all we know is that one of the Elizabeths in one of the Universes destroys the world for sure. The rest is up in the sky (ha pun!).

1337mokro:
You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

Well, if you actually only meant the one, physical, male Lucete, you can't call him "the Lutece" without qualifying his name some how, i.e. twin, brother, twin-brother, male or something like that.
Anyway, the fact that they could have just opened a tear in Anna's bedroom also applies if they didn't rack up the debt. All the arguments for why they wouldn't do that, such as convenience, morality, etc., only strengthen the argument for why they would want to create the debt in the first place.

P.S. Actually, hang on, I just thought of something. The multiple-worlds interpretation means that we're both right, because both eventualities happen in two different universes. That way I get my symbolic interpretation of events and you get your hard-line, empirical interpretation.

1337mokro:

maninahat:

1337mokro:
Now Elizabeth can life happily ever after with her dad who thanks to how this multiverse apparently works retains no memory of his experiences in Columbia, meaning he is still a drunken gambler who will sell his daughter first chance he gets.

Yay for happy parenting ending!!!

Not so fast. Because he "died", there is no one to go buy the daughter off of him. Most people generally are not predisposed to buy people's babies. It isn't a happy life ahead (alcoholism, debts, guilt broken abusive family) but it's probably better than a racist super city that ends up either destroying everything, or getting blown to bits.

You do know people sell babies all the time? Right?

I mean right now some baby somewhere is sold to someone. It is also questionable about what is best or better. I don't think you know exactly how bad an alcoholic gambling broke dad can be. Neither do I but you seem to be SERIOUSLY down playing it.

Sure she was stuck up in the city but she had everything she wanted. Essentially the Bird and the Cage argument here, but in my opinion she was better off in the Cage physically speaking and we don't KNOW if Comstock would have gone through with it in THAT dimension. Remember multiple universes? For all we know the universe she was in had a Comstock that would eventually mellow down, you see we don't actually know in which universe we are at the end. The Comstock we kill might not have been the first Comstock, after all the Comstock killing happens after I think about... 3-4 different universe changes?

Oh sure old Elizabeth sends you back to A universe where she was captured but you don't know if it was the same you started in.

So really all we know is that one of the Elizabeths in one of the Universes destroys the world for sure. The rest is up in the sky (ha pun!).

So wait, you accept the possibility that there is a universe where Comstock will see the error of his ways and not blow the living daylights out of the world below (despite building the entire apparatus and trapping Lizzy to do so), but we're not going to consider the possibility that Booker won't sell his baby, now that no one is going to come straight to his door, asking to buy his baby? Hell, he was reluctant enough the first time round, when someone put the idea to him in the first place.

I don't mean to brag and all, but I figured she was Booker's daughter almost straight away. Someone calls her Annabel (the name Booker keeps saying), and Booker makes a specific point of saying he totally did not have a baby. Yes, this thing was going Old Boy on our ass. I wonder how many people didn't see it coming, and ended up getting pissed off when it became clear that Elizabeth was a no go (only an hour after her revealing, re-dressing scene).

People have said that Infinite's ending was the worst ending ever? Really? Okay, I miss my happy ending that I got from BioShock and BioShock 2, but I thought Infinite's ending was fine. It took me a second to wrap my head around, but I got it--once I started viewing it through a comic-book-reality pair of lenses. Like the multiverse that's always showing up in DC.

I'm glad Yahtzee pointed out the fact that no one else was using Vigors. I found that strange. What I found even stranger was the upgrade for the Possession vigor. After you posses a human, they kill themselves after a short time. Who...who thought that was a good idea? Think about that for a moment: You are walking down the street, someone hits you with a green mist, and a few moments later you are compelled to kill yourself. And it's not like this was a secret version of Possession. This upgrade was available at any Viny-Vigor machine. That's insane, because Possession now serves no purpose beyond murdering someone.

I Despised infinite's ending.
Point one: You're drowned by Elizabeths who wouldn't have been around to drown you if you didn't become Comstock. Paradox.
Two: Silly M. Night. Shyamalan Plot Twists: The bad guy is evil you from another dimension; Elizabeth is your daughter. Really, guys? Is this really the best you can do?
Three: All that I saw throughout the game disagrees with the hypothesis that Elizabeth is the sort of person to resolutely murder Brooker by drowning him.
Four: The best part of the game was, to me, watching Elizabeth grow as a character. She's one of my favorite characters in a good while, and you've fought your way through Columbia, and both of you have faced your demons and grown as characters from it. And the ending throws all your work and trials away, consigns both of those characters to the void, and retcons both you and her into boring normal people I don't give a damn about. So what if you're doing it to stop Comstock? COMSTOCK DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. He's the sad little king of his sad little city, and if he really does get around to sending those silly airships against the world in the 1980s as the vision showed, I'd like to watch those airships getting introduced to fighter jets and Surface-to-Air missiles. Hell, back in the Cold War mentality of those times, Columbia would probably just take a nuke to the face.

Farther than stars:

1337mokro:
You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

Well, if you actually only meant the one, physical, male Lucete, you can't call him "the Lutece" without qualifying his name some how, i.e. twin, brother, twin-brother, male or something like that.
Anyway, the fact that they could have just opened a tear in Anna's bedroom also applies if they didn't rack up the debt. All the arguments for why they wouldn't do that, such as convenience, morality, etc., only strengthen the argument for why they would want to create the debt in the first place.

P.S. Actually, hang on, I just thought of something. The multiple-worlds interpretation means that we're both right, because both eventualities happen in two different universes. That way I get my symbolic interpretation of events and you get your hard-line, empirical interpretation.

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

maninahat:
So wait, you accept the possibility that there is a universe where Comstock will see the error of his ways and not blow the living daylights out of the world below (despite building the entire apparatus and trapping Lizzy to do so), but we're not going to consider the possibility that Booker won't sell his baby, now that no one is going to come straight to his door, asking to buy his baby? Hell, he was reluctant enough the first time round, when someone put the idea to him in the first place.

Oh of course there is one. But there is also one where he WILL do it. In fact there WAS already a universe where Booker didn't become Comstock and also didn't sell his daughter, cleaned up his act and became a good father...

So the entire story is just pointless because of the multiverse.

You see when you really think about it in the grand scheme of things Booker accepting his mistakes really isn't that important because an alternate reality Booker already did.

Also the first time around? This is an all new Booker right? Or is it the same Booker with the memories from Columbia? How would that work when Columbia literally never existed? Stop scratching at the paint mate, you're untangling the story :D

PS

Please continue picking at the logistics of the multiverse. I can't wait till it all unravels.

double post.

Part of the reason everything was so cartoonishly shiny was to juxtapose the buck-toothed, saw-bladed psychotic violence with it. In fact, I felt that it was right at home. Creepy horror has been done a hundred times before, but it's not often that you get to appreciate how at home this level of violence can be amongst the shiny lights of a big city. It makes it more unnerving in my mind. I remember you mentioning in your Dead Space 2 review that you had never seen a ripped-apart space station that looked like it had ever been a nice place to live. Well, this is the sort of thing we get when we mash the two up. And, before you paint the cultists as cartoonish, religious zealots, remember that we have those people in our world. They're real people without the real sort of power the characters had in the game. I agree with you about the ending, and even the Vigors, to a degree, but I would say that Comstock could go to an alternate reality where he had succeeded, but then he wouldn't be there to get there in the first place, so that reality wouldn't have had him getting there. He probably has done that in a lot of other places. Also, remember that this rift technology hasn't fully proliferated and seemed to be in the hands of the upper class and the scientists that used it. Lastly, yes, there are unnecessary things in the game, but I'd hate to complain about that. It sends the wrong message to the industry. Technically, games like this are unnecessary, because we could churn out the same washed-out shooters over and over without a thought to story and they'd still sell. Mario has been making the same game for. Ever. Besides, would you have wanted a BioShock game without vigors? I liked the way it tied the worlds together/apart. Sort of fit, really, especially considering the meta-narrative bits about sequels. This game exists on several levels and I'd hate to say that we need one, but that the other was silly.

1337mokro:

Farther than stars:

1337mokro:
You do know it was just the Brother that interacted with Booker right?

That is why I say The LUTECE. Because it's just one. Before the timey-wimey-essence-scattery accident with the rift machine the sister never interacted with Booker.

Also it's not really semantics as it is quite literally stated as being as such. The ONLY thing that has been absolutely confirmed is that they offered to relieve him of that debt. Now the debt has a symbolic meaning later on but that is besides the point.

Why do I think the Luteces didn't fabricate the debt? Because they could have just Kidnapped the girl never tipping off Booker. Why go back in time, make sure Booker is in debt, then offer to relieve him of that debt by selling his daughter? You know that makes no sense. Just open a rift in the office or wait until Booker goes to get milk for his kid, remember dead wife and I don't think Booker is the kind of man to start lactating, then snatch the kid.

It's convoluted hoop jumping for no reason besides an attempt to be deep and failing at it because the much easier solution is right there.

Well, if you actually only meant the one, physical, male Lucete, you can't call him "the Lutece" without qualifying his name some how, i.e. twin, brother, twin-brother, male or something like that.
Anyway, the fact that they could have just opened a tear in Anna's bedroom also applies if they didn't rack up the debt. All the arguments for why they wouldn't do that, such as convenience, morality, etc., only strengthen the argument for why they would want to create the debt in the first place.

P.S. Actually, hang on, I just thought of something. The multiple-worlds interpretation means that we're both right, because both eventualities happen in two different universes. That way I get my symbolic interpretation of events and you get your hard-line, empirical interpretation.

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

Booker could rush in and wrestle her out of their hands.* It's simply easier for the Luteces to get their hands on her if Booker agrees to it, but it also puts their minds at rest that Booker did this voluntarily.
As a matter of fact, even if they didn't actively influence every card Booker drew, they still picked a universe in which he lost, as opposed to winning big and becoming a millionaire. Cumulatively speaking, that's the same thing, because they could also kidnap her from the rich-Booker universe. But I don't think the Lutece twins would have a problem with influencing every single card either. After all, they were willing to sacrifice Booker 122(+) times in order to set things right. They certainly do have patience.

*And yes, Booker would always try to wrestle the girl away from them, because you never, ever leave a baby alone. Just... remember that, OK?

Farther than stars:

SNIP

Booker could rush in and wrestle her out of their hands.* It's simply easier for the Luteces to get their hands on her if Booker agrees to it, but it also puts their minds at rest that Booker did this voluntarily.
As a matter of fact, even if they didn't actively influence every card Booker drew, they still picked a universe in which he lost, as opposed to winning big and becoming a millionaire. Cumulatively speaking, that's the same thing, because they could also kidnap her from the rich-Booker universe. But I don't think the Lutece twins would have a problem with influencing every single card either. After all, they were willing to sacrifice Booker 122(+) times in order to set things right. They certainly do have patience.

*And yes, Booker would always try to wrestle the girl away from them, because you never, ever leave a baby alone. Just... remember that, OK?

You actually have to leave a baby alone quite often. For example when you put it in the crib. It's in a separate room. He leaves her alone in a room most of the day. They could literally have Comstock knock on the door, then have the brother Lutece rift into the crib room and steal the baby whilst Booker is distracted :D

If they scowered universes for the poor Booker.... why not scower the universe for the drunk passed out Booker? Then go in to steal the baby. You see when you give us an infinite amount of universes, with time over space time then there really is no reason WHY they HAD to lure him into a debt :D

I'm sure you want your explanation to be correct, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it is stupid. It is needlessly complex to find a universe where Booker lost, lost big and was willing to sell his daughter rather than doing a simple distraction.

1337mokro:

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

...Oh of course there is one. But there is also one where he WILL do it. In fact there WAS already a universe where Booker didn't become Comstock and also didn't sell his daughter, cleaned up his act and became a good father...

So the entire story is just pointless because of the multiverse.

Actually, I think it was explicitly stated by Elizabeth that in every universe where it comes up, Booker sells the baby, but only in some universes does he accept the baptism to become Comstock. It is these Comstock's that are ruining it for everyone, because they go into the other universes and (with apparently 100% success) convince the non-baptised Booker's to hand over their babies.

To break this inevitable cycle, Booker needs to take a third route and die, before he can become either a non-baptised or baptised Booker in later life. If he lives, he'll become either one guy in the process. By being dead, he can't become a Comstock, and convince a corresponding Booker to hand over the baby. Doing this leaves an odd Booker (coz I guess there are an even number of infinite dimensions). In this case, there is now a situation where one Booker does not get asked to hand over his baby, Columbia goes uncreated, and nothing bad happens.

1337mokro:
I'm sure you want your explanation to be correct, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it is stupid. It is needlessly complex to find a universe where Booker lost, lost big and was willing to sell his daughter rather than doing a simple distraction.

But then that is what happened in the context of the game. Are you saying it's a plot hole? Because then I definitely agree. Although I can still buy the argument that the Luteces simply wanted Booker to be at peace with losing his child (at least in this universe; in the other one they don't care).
But I just watched The Big Picture take on events and if I thought the nihilistic interpretation of the multiple-worlds theory made this argument insignificant, MovieBob's symbolic interpretation really makes this argument insignificant. It's funny actually, how MovieBob's interpretation ultimately means that the game promotes baptism, when on the surface it criticizes organised religion.
There's no two ways about it. Bioshock Infinite has the deepest story ever set in a video game. And I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
Also, you never leave a baby to go out and get milk, is what I meant. You don't leave it in the car, etc.

Zakarath:
I Despised infinite's ending.
Point one: You're drowned by Elizabeths who wouldn't have been around to drown you if you didn't become Comstock. Paradox.
Two: Silly M. Night. Shyamalan Plot Twists: The bad guy is evil you from another dimension; Elizabeth is your daughter. Really, guys? Is this really the best you can do?
Three: All that I saw throughout the game disagrees with the hypothesis that Elizabeth is the sort of person to resolutely murder Brooker by drowning him.
Four: The best part of the game was, to me, watching Elizabeth grow as a character. She's one of my favorite characters in a good while, and you've fought your way through Columbia, and both of you have faced your demons and grown as characters from it. And the ending throws all your work and trials away, consigns both of those characters to the void, and retcons both you and her into boring normal people I don't give a damn about. So what if you're doing it to stop Comstock? COMSTOCK DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. He's the sad little king of his sad little city, and if he really does get around to sending those silly airships against the world in the 1980s as the vision showed, I'd like to watch those airships getting introduced to fighter jets and Surface-to-Air missiles. Hell, back in the Cold War mentality of those times, Columbia would probably just take a nuke to the face.

not to mention the evil you from another universe has been done several times before. it was even done in video games in Infamous.

i also wrote in another topic on this that the ending ignores its own use a multiverse. the drowning of Booker cant do anything (since time splinters at every choice), thus is insignificant.

maninahat:

1337mokro:

You finally figured out the real story of Bioshock Infinite.

Nothing matters because everything has happened!

Welcome brother. To the realm of insignificance through omni-existence.

Though why would convenience be an argument AGAINST just kidnapping the kid? It is the most convenient one? Or are you saying they deliberately did not pick the most convenient of all solutions?

...Oh of course there is one. But there is also one where he WILL do it. In fact there WAS already a universe where Booker didn't become Comstock and also didn't sell his daughter, cleaned up his act and became a good father...

So the entire story is just pointless because of the multiverse.

Actually, I think it was explicitly stated by Elizabeth that in every universe where it comes up, Booker sells the baby, but only in some universes does he accept the baptism to become Comstock. It is these Comstock's that are ruining it for everyone, because they go into the other universes and (with apparently 100% success) convince the non-baptised Booker's to hand over their babies.

To break this inevitable cycle, Booker needs to take a third route and die, before he can become either a non-baptised or baptised Booker in later life. If he lives, he'll become either one guy in the process. By being dead, he can't become a Comstock, and convince a corresponding Booker to hand over the baby. Doing this leaves an odd Booker (coz I guess there are an even number of infinite dimensions). In this case, there is now a situation where one Booker does not get asked to hand over his baby, Columbia goes uncreated, and nothing bad happens.

That is allot of wishful thinking you are doing there sir. Sadly dreams don't make cities fly :)

After all there is now only ONE Booker that matters. You see you have the Booker that would have refused the baptism... and nothing else. There have been NO OTHER CHOICES yet. Right now there exists only ONE Booker with the option to sell his daughter. In other words... the Booker that sold his daughter.

If we accept that the only way to stop this was to kill Comstock Booker than we accept that the only timeline that matters is that one with the baptism decision. After all like someone else pointed out you could have stopped Booker from going to Wounded Knee, sabotaged his military application form, whatever. Meaning there is now only ONE Booker timeline left. This Booker still has a debt and will still have to make a choice on what to sell. Now mind you by the same logic as the rest of the multiverse, at least one universe now exists with Booker with a fistful of a cash and an empty crib.

Zakarath:
I Despised infinite's ending.
Point one: You're drowned by Elizabeths who wouldn't have been around to drown you if you didn't become Comstock. Paradox.
Two: Silly M. Night. Shyamalan Plot Twists: The bad guy is evil you from another dimension; Elizabeth is your daughter. Really, guys? Is this really the best you can do?
Three: All that I saw throughout the game disagrees with the hypothesis that Elizabeth is the sort of person to resolutely murder Brooker by drowning him.
Four: The best part of the game was, to me, watching Elizabeth grow as a character. She's one of my favorite characters in a good while, and you've fought your way through Columbia, and both of you have faced your demons and grown as characters from it. And the ending throws all your work and trials away, consigns both of those characters to the void, and retcons both you and her into boring normal people I don't give a damn about. So what if you're doing it to stop Comstock? COMSTOCK DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. He's the sad little king of his sad little city, and if he really does get around to sending those silly airships against the world in the 1980s as the vision showed, I'd like to watch those airships getting introduced to fighter jets and Surface-to-Air missiles. Hell, back in the Cold War mentality of those times, Columbia would probably just take a nuke to the face.

Tell me, have you watched the Big Picture episode about this game yet? If you haven't, would you do me a favour and watch it? It adds interesting dimension to the debate.

castlewise:

Requia:

Edit:
As for my take on the ending:
I hated it. I followed it just fine, and it does what it sets out to do masterfully. I just fundamentally disagree with (some of) the messages and philosophy in it, and so I just really don't like it. My core problem boils directly down to the fact that the ending seems to be saying that a man must be held responsible for the choices he could make, not the choices he does make. And that bothers me on a fundamental level.

Farther than stars:
But then that is what happened in the context of the game. Are you saying it's a plot hole? Because then I definitely agree. Although I can still buy the argument that the Luteces simply wanted Booker to be at peace with losing his child (at least in this universe; in the other one they don't care).
But I just watched The Big Picture take on events and if I thought the nihilistic interpretation of the multiple-worlds theory made this argument insignificant, MovieBob's symbolic interpretation really makes this argument insignificant. It's funny actually, how MovieBob's interpretation ultimately means that the game promotes baptism, when on the surface it criticizes organised religion.
There's no two ways about it. Bioshock Infinite has the deepest story ever set in a video game. And I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
Also, you never leave a baby to go out and get milk, is what I meant. You don't leave it in the car, etc.

Yes it is a plothole, those should not be excused. Finding an extra contriving way, which you btw are NOT sure of because they NEVER explicitly mention HOW they did it, is BAD.

Also he'd probably just leave her in her crib and go to the local drugstore. This is 1912 New York, they have stores on the corner of almost every street. He'd be gone for 5 minutes, but that is all an inter-dimensional kidnapper would need.

How old are you? Are you serious? No game EVER had a better story than Bioshock Infinite? Seriously? No game had a better story than a plothole riddled mess of a halfassed multiverse sci-fi disaster that is about a guy accepting his past mistakes?

I know I'm laying it on rather thick here but seriously? You want to claim Bioshock Infinite as the BEST?! You did play games before 2013 right?

Of the top of my head.

Planescape: Torment
System Shock 2
Baldur's Gate
Beyond Good and Evil
Deus Ex
Portal
STAR WARS: KOTOR has some great characters and even it's sequel had awesome moments
A number of different Final Fantasy games
Silent Hill 2
Day of the Tentacle
Chrono Trigger
Shadow of the Colossus
Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
GRIM (FUCKING) FANDANGO!!!
Add here basically any adventure game made by Lucas Arts in the golden days and you have a short list of games with better/deeper stories than Bioshock Infinite.

Fuck even BIOSHOCK is better story wise than this game in my opinion. It had better characters, more world building and it tied itself better to the themes it wanted to explore. Bioshock created a world around the themes it explored and made you experience it.

Now of course I respect your opinion but to claim it as fact and to ask someone to PROVE you wrong like it is even remotely possible to PROVE an opinion in any way is just ludicrous. You will also get smacked with an entire list of suggestions of games to enrich your palate.

Seriously go play Grim Fandango. It's basically free to pirate because nobody sells it anymore. Then come back and tell me Bioshock is still the bestest ever.

1337mokro:

If we accept that the only way to stop this was to kill Comstock Booker than we accept that the only timeline that matters is that one with the baptism decision. After all like someone else pointed out you could have stopped Booker from going to Wounded Knee, sabotaged his military application form, whatever. Meaning there is now only ONE Booker timeline left. This Booker still has a debt and will still have to make a choice on what to sell. Now mind you by the same logic as the rest of the multiverse, at least one universe now exists with Booker with a fistful of a cash and an empty crib.

Two things: Firstly, I figure Booker only sold his kid in the first place because Comstock (knowing himself intimately) knew how exactly to talk him into handing it over, and via dimensional travel, knew exactly when was the most effective time to ask Booker. Presumably, most people do not approach debtors and, apropos of nothing, offer to buy their children. Even if they did, they'd struggle to be quite as appealing as a doppelganger who knows exactly what best to say.

Secondly, even if Booker does choose to sell his kid, it would have to be to someone who isn't Comstock, now that Comstock no longer exists. That would be tragic, but it still wouldn't lead to the fiery Armageddon.

As for why they went with this scheme, and not say, intervene with Booker before Wounded Knee? Eh, fiction I guess. The twins had gone through dozens and dozens of schemes with many different Bookers in many Columbias, and they had all previously failed to prevent the Armageddon. So perhaps they did indeed try it those ways, only to find them not working. Why would that be the case? Who knows and who cares, it's just a story, and it is far more cathartic for Booker to have his moment of realisation and accept being drowned.

maninahat:
Two things: Firstly, I figure Booker only sold his kid in the first place because Comstock (knowing himself intimately) knew how exactly to talk him into handing it over, and via dimensional travel, knew exactly when was the most effective time to ask Booker. Presumably, most people do not approach debtors and, apropos of nothing, offer to buy their children. Even if they did, they'd struggle to be quite as appealing as a doppelganger who knows exactly what best to say.

Secondly, even if Booker does choose to sell his kid, it would have to be to someone who isn't Comstock, now that Comstock no longer exists. That would be tragic, but it still wouldn't lead to the fiery Armageddon.

As for why they went with this scheme, and not say, intervene with Booker before Wounded Knee? Eh, fiction I guess. The twins had gone through dozens and dozens of schemes with many different Booker's in many Columbia's, and they had all previously failed to prevent the Armageddon. So perhaps they did indeed try it those ways, only to find them not working. Why would that be the case? Who knows and who cares, it's just a story, and it is far more cathartic for Booker to have his moment of realisation and accept being drowned.

Oh sure you can suppose... but you don't know. That's the problem. All you do is speculate on things. Oh I like to thing... Oh he might not... There could be... these are all the wrong words my friend. If you use these then there is a possibility that he also might still do it.

Actually in the olden days it was quite normal to sell your kids, it's even going on today. The argument that people don't easily sell children is invalid because it does happen. Booker is that person who WOULD sell his own kid. There is no argument there. He IS capable of it.

You can't wave the fiction flag when you run head first into a plothole. That's LAZY and goes against the supposed high brow story of the game. If it wants to be cerebral it has to cement those holes shut, not tell the player to just ignore it. It can't have it's cake and eat it saying it's just a game for fun whenever the plotholes creep up and then at the same time want to be taken completely seriously all the rest.

My problem with the ending to Bioshock Infinite is that all the Shyamalan Twists serve to wrest the character focus away from Elizabeth (whose journey we had, to that point, been watching as she experiences the world for the first time, and discovers where her ideals might lead her) and on to Booker.

The problem with that is that Booker isn't really a character, he's got a backstory but the fact that he was deliberately rendered a blank slate so that the player could experience Columbia without him colouring the experience by having opinions on things means that he doesn't get to be a person, he's just an objective marker following robot (in this way the fantastic setting actually detracted from the story, setting Infinite in a location familiar enough to the player that Booker could have expressed himself would have allowed it to be a stronger tale).

That means that he can't carry the focus of the story, why should I care that Comstock is an alternate possible Booker, if Booker isn't a person? Why should I care that Elizabeth is Booker's daughter if Booker isn't a person? How can you effectively tell a story about how a man faces the sins of his own past if the man is a hollow void bereft of person?

Without Booker as an established character there's no way to contrast any of the alternate "could have been" Bookers (Comstock, martyr of the Vox, whatever) with the one we drive around, and so there's no point them being there. The whole alternate dimension part of the plot, which hinges on these "could have beens" means nothing because there's no "is".

It means that the story, at the end of the day, isn't about anything, there's no human element to the plot, just a bunch of narrative where the take-home suggestion is "going back in time and killing your father before you were born is an awesome way to solve your problems".

And that's just silly.

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